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GUIDE DOGS In Touch visits the first mosque to admit a guide dog after a Fatwa has clarified the position that a working guide dog is not unclean. The programme discussed the implications of this decision and whether all Muslim communities are yet ready to embrace the idea of the guide dog. CONTACT THE GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: The GDBA’s mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. GENERAL CONTACTS RNIB 105 Judd Street London WC1H 9NE Helpline: 0845 766 9999 (Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm) Tel: 0207 388 1266 (switchboard/overseas callers) Web: The RNIB provides information, support and advice for anyone with a serious sight problem. They not only provide Braille, Talking Books and computer training, but imaginative and practical solutions to everyday challenges. The RNIB campaigns to change society's attitudes, actions and assumptions, so that people with sight problems can enjoy the same rights, freedoms and responsibilities as fully sighted people. They also fund pioneering research into preventing and treating eye disease and promote eye health by running public health awareness campaigns. HENSHAWS SOCIETY FOR BLIND PEOPLE (HSBP) John Derby House 88-92 Talbot Road Old Trafford Manchester M16 0GS Tel: 0161 872 1234 Email: info@hsbp.co.uk Web: Henshaws provides a wide range of services for people who have sight difficulties. They aim to enable visually impaired people of all ages to maximise their independence and enjoy a high quality of life. They have centres in: Harrogate, Knaresborough, Liverpool, Llandudno, Manchester, Newcastle upon Tyne, Salford, Southport and Trafford. THE GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: The GDBA’s mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. ACTION FOR BLIND PEOPLE 14-16 Verney Road London SE16 3DZ Tel: 0800 915 4666 (info & advice) Tel: 020 7635 4800 (central office) Web: Registered charity with national cover that provides practical support in the areas of housing, holidays, information, employment and training, cash grants and welfare rights for blind and partially-sighted people. Leaflets and booklets are available. NATIONAL LEAGUE OF THE BLIND AND DISABLED Central Office Swinton House 324 Grays Inn Road London WC1X 8DD Tel: 020 7837 6103 Textphone: 020 7837 6103 National League of the Blind and Disabled is a registered trade union and is involved in all issues regarding the employment of blind and disabled people in the UK. NATIONAL LIBRARY FOR THE BLIND (NLB) Far Cromwell Road Bredbury Stockport SK6 2SG Tel: 0161 406 2525 Textphone: 0161 355 2043 Email: enquiries@nlbuk.org Web: Trustees from the Royal National Institute of the Blind (RNIB) and the National Library for the Blind (NLB) have agreed to merge the library services of both charities as of 1 January 2007, creating the new RNIB National Library Service. EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION HELPLINE (England) Freepost RRLL-GHUX-CTRX Arndale House Arndale Centre Manchester M4 3EQ 0845 604 6610 - England main number 0845 604 6620 - England textphone 0845 604 6630 - England fax Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri 9:00 am-5:00 pm; Wed 9:00 am-8:00 pm (last call taken at 7:45pm) EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION HELPLINE (Wales) Freepost RRLR-UEYB-UYZL 3rd Floor 3 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5BT 0845 604 8810 - Wales main number 0845 604 8820 - Wales textphone 0845 604 8830 - Wales fax Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri 9:00 am-5:00 pm; Wed 9:00 am-8:00 pm (last call taken at 7:45pm) EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION HELPLINE (Scotland) Freepost RRLL-GYLB-UJTA The Optima Building 58 Robertson Street Glasgow G2 8DU 0845 604 5510 - Scotland Main 0845 604 5520 - Scotland Textphone 0845 604 5530 - Scotland – Fax Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri 9:00 am-5:00 pm; Wed 9:00 am-8:00 pm (last call taken at 7:45pm) DISABLED LIVING FOUNDATION 380-384 Harrow Road London W9 2HU Tel: 0845 130 9177 Web: The Disabled Living Foundation provides information and advice on disability equipment. THRIVE The Geoffrey Udall Centre Beech Hill Reading RG7 2AT Tel: 0118 9885688 Email: info@thrive.org.uk Thrive is a national charity, founded in 1978, whose aim is to research, educate and promote the use and advantages of gardening for those with a disability. Thrive’s vision is that the benefits of gardening are known to, and can be accessed by, anyone with a disability. Thrive has been supporting blind gardeners for over 30 years, and established the Blind Gardeners’ Club with RNIB in 2006 to help gardeners share information and techniques. Membership of the club costs £9 a year. The ´óÏó´«Ã½ is not responsible for external websites General contacts Back to top TranscriptIN TOUCHTX: 07.10.08 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: CHERYL GABRIEL White Good Evening. Today we're returning to the subject of the use of guide dogs by Muslims, and the cultural implications. In the past we've reported on some of the barriers - religious and cultural - that can be encountered, but a recent decision suggests that the opportunity to use a dog, if that's your choice, might now increase. Mahomed Abraar-Khatri is believed to be the first guide dog owner in Britain to be allowed to take his dog into a mosque. Mahomed, who's 18, lost his sight three years ago, but he's already learned to read the Koran in Arabic Braille, and can now go independently to worship at the Bilal Jamia mosque in Leicester, following a fatwa, or Islamic decree from the Muslim Council of Great Britain. The fatwa has clarified that because Mahomed's dog Vargo is serving a purpose, he shouldn't be thought of as unclean. Well in a moment we're going to be discussing some of the wider implications of this decision, and trying to clear up perhaps some of the misunderstandings that surround it. But first our reporter Mani Djazmi went along to the mosque in Leicester last Friday, to gauge the reaction of worshippers, and to meet Mahomed and Vargo. Actuality Mahomed talking to Vargo Mahomed Before I had to meet someone so I'd have to meet them 20 minutes before in case they're late, then if they're late I don't go and I get moaned up for being late. When you get there you've got to wait around and do nothing. Now I can go with five minutes left, I can go at my own speed, I can get there and then you can just go straight in and it's really good. Now we're in the mosque and we're at the dog's pen where his bed is. Open it up for him so he can get in, in you go. Good boy. And now he should just lie there and sleep and wait for me to return and then back off again. Actuality from mosque - prayers Imam from Bilal Mosque I am Mr [name], head imam of mosque of Bilal in Leicester. Why we need the fatwa? Nobody have asked before. This is that reason. This is coming [indistinct word] in the Muslim community, that's why we need some of the more [indistinct word] things because we was looking not only for Mahomed, we are looking in the future, we are looking at the future where there are so many other people will come, they will take this facility, they will follow this rule and I think so they will be happy and they will say yes we are now activate in all the community and we can do what other people can do. And I will appeal to all the Muslim community - whenever you are going to build a new mosque you should look after and you should allocate the place for the blind person because if we are getting some facilities why they don't get facilities? Djazmi One of the traditional barriers facing blind Muslims is the reluctance of their family to live with a guide dog. Well I'm with Gafar, who's Mahomed Abraar's father and a driving force in getting his son a dog. Do you think this reluctance is more to do with culture or religion? Gafar Khatri I think it's more to the culture and not being aware of the religious capability. It says in the Koran that there is a solution for every eventuality. Traditionally we don't keep dogs as pets, we can keep dogs for security reasons, we can keep dogs for shepherding if you're a farmer and you can train a dog to do hunting for yourself. And that is the way I looked at it and I asked the priest - [indistinct word] imam - to say if this is possible then why can't I keep a dog to shepherd my son around and become his eyes? Djazmi It's interesting because your attitude seems particularly enlightened, why is your attitude so different? Gafar Khatri We've got to change with time, you've got to realise that you're here today, you might not be here tomorrow and who is there going to be there to look after your child, who is going to take him out if he wants to buy some food or do his shopping or be independent? You cannot rely on other friends or you cannot rely on family all the time. And therefore I'm trying to teach my son to be as independent as possible. Djazmi And what about the rest of your family - how have they reacted to Vargo? Gafar Khatri The first couple of days it was a little bit scary for the girls and the wife. She's not scared or anything, she's just more apprehensive. I mean we've had Vargo for three months now and she's now beginning to soften down, she now talks to Vargo, she sits down next to him and says don't look at me like that, you know, you're melting me down, I mean you're making me - you're a soft spot for me now. Djazmi So she's warming to him nicely? Gafar Khatri Yes, oh yes very much, yes. Actuality from mosque - prayers Imam As a religious point of view the spit of the dog hygienically is not allowed in Islamic point of view. What I will touch anything you have to wash, okay? But last few weeks I have seen this dog myself and this dog has always followed principles because it never brought out his tongue, even if the outside. This is where Islam say that the dog which has been taught by the humans is allowed. Actuality Mahomed talking to Vargo Gafar Khatri We've just set ourselves an example up here, a couple of weeks ago it was unheard of and yet today at the Friday prayers you won't find anybody who will criticise with Mahomed coming in with the dog, he'll go in and it's generally just accepted. And I think that itself shows that people's attitude and perception has changed in a few weeks. And I do hope that as the days go by it will change a lot more people's perceptions. Djazmi Well the Friday prayers have just finished and I'm just interested to know what Mahomed's fellow worshippers think of Vargo's presence here. How do you feel about sharing a mosque with a dog? Worshipper It's a dirty animal, dirty things should not come in mosque. Djazmi Even though it's a guide dog and it's helping someone? Worshipper Whatever it is, whatever it is, should not come in, not at all. God says that it's dirty animal. Another worshipper It's nice and peaceful for the dog, he's not disturbing us and we're not disturbing him and the brother Mahomed can come and perform his duties as well without any interference as well. Another worshipper Guide dog can go into the shops and into the restaurant - why not in the mosque? I mean it's helping a disabled person to come independent. Djazmi What was your reaction when you first discovered that there would be a dog so close to where you pray? Another worshipper Well it did surprise me in the beginning because I personally was ignorant on this but when our imam enlightened us it made sense. Another worshipper Where I leave my shoes dog can only go up there, that's all. Djazmi And that's what's happened hasn't it, so I'm talking about the guide dog which is staying in this mosque. Another worshipper Yes I'm talking about where there is a guide dog and not guide dog, it is a dog. Mahomed I know that people don't like dogs and just don't go near them but it's not going to stop me from doing the things I want to do. For example, if someone doesn't like a dog at college in my class I'm not going to move class just for them because it's my education at the end of the day or whatever. And the same here - the mosque have said that some people may not like the dogs but we've got to accommodate the people, we've got to give a facility for him and that's what they've provided and that's what I use. White Mahomed Abraar-Khatri and Vargo talking with Mani Djazmi. So, is this likely to open the floodgates of guide dog ownership amongst visually-impaired Muslims, or are there still a number of problems perhaps to resolve? To discuss these issues I'm joined by Graham Kensett, who is a group team leader for guide dogs and he's been very much involved in Mahomed's case and encouraging the spread of guide dog ownership to wider sections of the community. Joining us from Worcester Pervez Hussain, who's a diversity trainer with West Mercia Police, and from Birmingham by Sana Viner, who is a trainee solicitor and both Pervez and Sana are guide dog owners. Sana if I can come to you first of all, both as a Muslim and as a woman, how difficult a decision was it in the first place for you to become a guide dog owner? Viner It was quite a difficult decision but not actually because I'm Muslim, more so because as this programme's already highlighted guide dogs aren't really seen as clean animals culturally and that - I suppose that is linked to the Islamic perspective. So because of that I'd never had a pet when I was a child or ever really been exposed to dogs. So I personally didn't like dogs at all. So that was my main concern in having a guide dog. Obviously there was the Islamic question but to me Islam has always been a flexible religion. I know, for instance, that there are exceptions to all the rules, as far as I'm aware. I mean if you've got nothing to eat and you're going to starve you're allowed to eat pork. So therefore I thought well if I'm blind and I require a guide dog to become more independent or to aid me in my mobility then surely that would be allowed. White And you felt at that point that you needed a dog did you, that it was the best solution to your mobility problem? Viner I did. I was very independent using a white cane, however, I'd recently started at Birmingham University and I'm not sure whether you're aware but it's a very big campus and Birmingham in general is quite a busy city, so I just felt that really a dog would enhance my mobility and probably make life easier, which it did. White And what were the attitudes of your family members because presumably once home from university that was still an issue? Viner Well my family actually live in Dubai so it wasn't such a big issue. But however they do come and visit me and they visit me for a few weeks at a time, so I did consult with them but they were really supportive and they understood that I was getting a dog for a reason and therefore it should be allowed and they're just going to have to get used to it. White So as far as you're concerned it's worked out okay, I mean are there any things you'd say to Mahomed as a new guide dog owner? Viner I think it's brilliant that Mahomed has taken the step and got a guide dog, I mean it's clearly helping him and enabling him to become more independent. And I think it's going to set a brilliant example for all the other young Muslims around who may consider getting a guide dog. White Let me bring Pervez Hussain in at that point and stay on that point. I mean it's all very well to say well it's fine, it's all sorted, take your dog to the mosque but we heard some of the reservations in Mani's piece and they are still there aren't they, what should Mahomed bear in mind? Hussain I think he's going to face certainly the first speaker you had on in relation to issues around having a dog, regardless if it's a guide dog or a dog that shouldn't be in a mosque. It's a problem certainly with changing attitudes within the community and large parts of Birmingham are very segregated communities and I can assure you that it's not just about the mosque, it's about the education that needs to be done within the community and that is a major factor in educating, certainly Muslims, around the culture. White Sure, because I mean Sana clearly there had quite a supportive family and she was at university in England anyway but presumably if you were in a - perhaps a rather more close and segregated community you would come across some difficulty. Hussain Oh I can guarantee you would because I think - certainly I spoke to a young lady - a Muslim female - about 17 months ago that was referred to me from Guide Dogs who was in a very difficult position. She lived with her parents, she had - her parents wouldn't allow her to get the guide dog and she felt totally no independence at all. But the difficulty she had was she was in a Catch 22 - she was guided by her parents, where she went, and because she wasn't working she had difficulties in - because it wasn't her house and so forth, she was stuck in that dilemma of her parents values that we talk about and attitudes about guide dogs. Which is very, very difficult when you're a person very young. Full respect - I mean I think I'm not saying it's a negative but I will say it's full respect to Mahomed to get this on the agenda. But I spoke about this three years ago and I don't think personally that it's moved forward in terms of educating the community - mosque maybe but they're very, very powerful aren't they. White And just remind us - what were your own circumstances when you decided to have a dog? Hussain I did something very different in terms of - I actually live in Hereford and my family are based in Birmingham. But what I did was I actually took my dad and my brothers down to show them what guide dogs did. But what I did was I actually wanted to show my family and people within the community what guide dogs actually did, so what I did was I made a video of my dog using an inspector, who's retired now, we went round my route that I normally do and took it back into the community to actually educate them and this is what they actually do. For them to have a level of understanding, as you found out in your piece, they very much talked about dogs as guard dogs and that's how you're brought up but there's nothing to say in the culture, certainly in the religion aspect, that a dog can't be touched, it's just the saliva of the dog, that's all it is. White Right. Let me bring in Graham Kensett in our Coventry studio. What's the association's policy on this because it's very clear, particularly from what Pervez has said, that you've got to be careful - the environment that you actually put a dog in, both from the point of view of the dog and well the whole family I guess? Kensett Yeah, I think the important thing is for us we want to move forward, we want to ensure that guide dogs are available to everybody who is blind and partially-sighted, everybody who is going to benefit from such a positive mobility aid and that shouldn't have any effect on their race, religion, faith or any of these other issues. But it is important that we're recognising that guide dogs should be about opening doors and not closing doors. And it is interesting when you listen to the points of view, not only from those that attend the mosque on a regular basis but if you ask people in general they will have different viewpoints on dogs and on different issues pertaining to dogs. I think the important thing is that as an organisation we wish to educate and support, so we will support individuals who apply for guide dog ownership and we will offer a one-to-one service - we will work with the family, we will work with the culture, the faith, we'll work with their family and friends to try to ensure that success is at the forefront. And I think ... White Yeah, because it wouldn't be something to be rushed would it necessarily? Kensett It wouldn't be something to be rushed and I think it's important to recognise that we do move forward and we are moving forward and we are moving forward really successfully. I think it's great the coverage that we've had with Mahomed and Vargo, it has gone international and I think it is giving a very strong message. White Let me bring Sana back, I mean I'm wondering - given - in the context of what you've all said - what kind of decisions do you find yourself having to make about using your dog, I mean are there places you take the dog and some you wouldn't? Viner Well to be very truthful there are certain places that I sometimes do not take Amelia, simply because it is more hassle than I've got time for sometimes, which is probably not a good attitude to have. But, for example, sometimes you just want to go out for a meal and not have to fight for half an hour first about allowing the dog into the restaurant these days. White Which of course is the problem that guide dog owners, Muslim or not, have. Viner Exactly. And so I can see that this problem would be even more enhanced if you were living in a Muslim community where you'd be coming across people all the time that don't like the dog. But then again, as Perez mentioned, it's about educating the community and once they can see how the dog makes such a big difference in someone's life that would hopefully have a positive impact. White Will you want to take your dog to the mosque? Viner Yes I wouldn't mind, obviously I would ensure that the particular mosque has the right facilities and if I needed to take the dog I would. White I'm really interested in something that you've all brought up in a sense and Sana you mentioned it there, which is you might have greater difficulties in a community which was concentrated Muslim. I mean as a budding lawyer you'll be well aware of the problems faced by passengers sometimes when Muslim taxi drivers come to pick them up and they find that they don't want to take the dog. If it's you with the dog is that going to make the taxi driver more or less likely to take you? Viner Well I always have a very firm standpoint on this. If I have a taxi driver who refuses to take me I definitely get into that taxi. I say well I'm afraid it's against the law so you are going to have to take me and I find that by the end of the journey the taxi driver's attitude has changed because they realise that my dog sits very nicely and is very well behaved in the footwell, does not spit or do anything and the journey's perfectly comfortable. White They wouldn't be annoyed that you, as a Muslim, would have a dog? Viner Well no because this what I have to explain to them that at the end of the day I'm Muslim and I still have to operate. I'm living in a society where I don't have anybody to chaperone me around everywhere so therefore I'm entitled to get into a taxi and they need to understand. White Well we're going to have to leave it there but we'd be very interested to hear from people about their experiences and we're very grateful to all of you for coming in. Sana Viner, Pervez Hussain, Graham Kensett - thank you all very much indeed. That's it for today but do call our action line with your views on 0800 044044, or you can email us at In Touch. And don't forget, this programme can be downloaded as a podcast as from tomorrow. From me Peter White, my producer Cheryl Gabriel, and the team, goodbye. Back to top |
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