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You and Yours - Transcript 大象传媒 Radio 4 |
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TX: 10.12.09 - Mental Health Finance PRESENTER: PETER WHITE |
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THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 大象传媒 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY. WHITE First though how much responsibility does a bank or a lender have to someone whose mental health problems may affect their ability to handle a loan? Emma's mother suffers from bipolar disorder which can be associated with bouts of reckless spending. But despite having history of debt and an erratic work record she was given an interest only mortgage five years ago - she was 61 at the time - and has subsequently borrowed against the mortgage. When she couldn't keep up the payments her daughter, Emma, who's got power of attorney had to step in. EMMA She was moving house at the time to clear her debts and needed somewhere smaller but managed to find out that she could get a mortgage and moved to somewhere that she really couldn't afford. Subsequently to that when she's got into debt the lender has lent her more and more money, which now leaves her in the situation that almost half of her monthly income goes to the mortgage lender. WHITE At the time of the mortgage what - as far as you know - what was she asked about her circumstances and her ability to pay? EMMA She's not entirely sure, she can't really remember exactly what happened. She thinks she had to show a bank statement, which I'm a little confused about because I know she was in debt to the bank. She hasn't ever had any real meaningful employment other than the odd little bit of part-time work, so I don't understand how she qualified for a mortgage. WHITE And how serious are her finances now? EMMA Well I'm hoping to be able to prevent her from being made homeless. I don't know if I'm going to be able to succeed in doing that, I'm working with Citizens Advice in order to look into mortgage assistance schemes, which I've been made aware of through talking to Shelter. WHITE What effect is this having on her - how worried is she by what's going on? EMMA She has severe depressive illness anyway, which she's had for most of her life, well she is suicidal so obviously the effects of this isn't just on her it's on the wider family as a whole. WHITE Do you feel that she should have been asked any questions about her state of mind, as well as her finances? EMMA I don't know that that - that's really for the mortgage lender to ask but she had a track record of debt and she had had a car repossessed prior to this so I think without looking at her state of mind perhaps the debt issues could have been picked up on. But when I've challenged that I have a letter saying that the automated credit scoring system allowed her to borrow the money, so to me it's kind of a little bit like the computer says yes and let's all go ahead. WHITE How have you become involved? EMMA My relationship with her is extremely difficult and sometimes I'm ashamed to say I go for months where I don't speak to her but obviously she is my mother and I need to do what I can to try and resolve this situation. WHITE Have you had to pay any money yourself? EMMA I have made several payments over the last few years of her mortgage and recently I've paid £600 just to give us a little bit of breathing space to work out what to do. WHITE What's been the attitude of the mortgage company as this has developed? EMMA When I spoke to the Halifax - I mean I'm a fairly articulate confident reasonably well educated person and they actually reduced me not only to tears but I was left shaking at the end of my phone call with them. WHITE And what was it - can you explain what it was about it? EMMA Yeah I mean I was being asked why I couldn't take on her mortgage, which I felt really a third party isn't fair of them to question whether or not I can pay her mortgage because this is actually an interest only mortgage for the rest of her life, so assuming she beats the depression we could be talking 20-30 more years, I'm in my 40s, I could be retired and still have a mortgage then. And secondly, I was being questioned as to if I knew about her problems why I hadn't done more to help her sooner and I think anybody who has a parent with mental health problems will understand that the relationships are extremely difficult and strained and if there was anything I could do, as a daughter, to prevent these problems or help her illness I would have done it. I've found that when I've needed to talk to somebody there's organisations for people with mental health problems, there's organisations for people with debt but for the people that are trying to help a family member there's kind of nothing there. WHITE And in terms of how they've dealt with her what do you feel? EMMA I don't know an awful lot about how they've dealt with her, she doesn't really tell me, I think she just pretends it's not happening until things get out of hand and then gives it to me and says you will make it alright won't you. WHITE What do you think should have happened in your mother's case? EMMA It's questionable whether she should have been given a mortgage. An interest only mortgage for somebody elderly for the rest of their life does always mean that they have an element of risk in their lives which I don't think she understood. I know there's been an awful lot of charges because I think £35 is put on the account for every phone call and letter. I asked them a month ago to provide me with details of the total charges that have been applied to her account but that hasn't yet materialised. Sort of more importantly really I contacted the lender a year into her mortgage, which is now four years ago, when difficulties first arose and said - please do not lend this person anymore money, they have mental health and spending problems - and subsequently to that they have lent her a further £20,000. WHITE And that was Emma's story. We spoke to the Halifax and in a statement they told us: Halifax statement We advise customers or their power of attorney to get in touch with us as soon as they believe they cannot make a payment. As long as we're aware that a customer has mental health problems we will take this into account. And they also said that they will get in touch with Emma to try to find a solution for her and for her mother. Well mental health charity MIND say Emma's story isn't uncommon. Sophie Corlett is from the organisation MIND and she joins us. What kind of situations have you heard about people getting themselves into Sophie? CORLETT Hello, yes, well as you say it's not uncommon at all. We have heard of several people who've had their houses repossessed or they've been evicted because they've got into similar difficulties as Emma's mother. But we've also heard of people who have told the bank, explicitly told the bank and asked the bank for help, and have not received any. So, for instance, a woman we were talking to last month who has bipolar disorder and goes on spending sprees as part of this, she's aware of it, she's accrued a lot of debt in the past, she asked the bank to flag her account so that it would pick up unusual spending patterns. But they said they couldn't do it. Or another gentleman who said that to control his spending that he was talking to the bank, the bank suggested lowering his credit limit but he went on a spending spree, exceeded his limit and then the bank just charged him a penalty fee for exceeding the reduced limit. So you know banks need to design products and provide safeguards and then follow through with them. WHITE And I think you've also had examples, haven't you, of people where there is a debt and perhaps they have got into trouble receiving quite a lot of calls about this? CORLETT Absolutely. There was one woman we talked to she was effectively was called on a shift pattern all day, all evening and over the weekends, day in, day out. She was finally - became so unwell that she was actually detained under the Mental Health Act and her psychiatrist said that the stress of the financial problems and that - effectively that harassment - being pursued by the bank - contributed to the deterioration in her mental health. WHITE Let me bring in Brian Capon, who's from the British Bankers Association. Brian, what guidelines are there for banks, first of all, on the whole issue of mental health problems? CAPON Well a bank has a duty to the personal and account details of all of its customers are confidential so it can only really discuss the account with the customer or their properly authorised representative. And they also can't record information about a customer's health unless it's volunteered and the customer gives their consent. So I think the bank is constrained on the measures it can take. And it can't treat anyone with a mental health problem any differently to any other customer. WHITE So is mental illness a factor when deciding if someone can take out a loan or mortgage because as you heard Emma say she wonders why that mortgage was given in the first place? CAPON Well when a bank is lending to someone with a mental health condition a bank can't withhold the service on a basis of a mental health issue, it has to take the normal commercial credit assessments - a person's financial track record, the employment history, level of income and any other commitments that they may have. WHITE Let me - Sophie, can I bring you in on that because your organisation clearly don't want people with mental health problems to be discriminated against but surely the banks need to have all the facts don't they if they're going to be criticised for not having taken them into account? CORLETT Well we've got a number of people who've approached us who have talked to the banks about their mental health problems. We've talked to people who've had to speak to multiple people at their banks and it's still not had an effect. So when we did a survey last year 59% of the people who said they'd told their bank said they'd had to explain themselves several times to lots of different people. Eighty two percent of that group said that they'd told the bank and they were still harassed about their debts and the examples I gave earlier were of people who'd approached their bank and asked the bank to set up things that would be helpful to them and to the bank but those things hadn't worked or in fact had played against the individual in the end. WHITE Well Brian what about that - and Emma said that she had informed the bank of the situation, in fact the Halifax of the situation? CAPON Yeah well certainly if it's the customer that informs the bank or someone who is acting as an attorney or a proper legal representative of that person then some - the bank may for instance manage to put a marker on the account, it depends on the type of account and how that would work but there are some accounts that are on offer where you can't actually get an overdraft, you can't go overdrawn on them and there are others which will flag up, for instance, by text message or something like that if you're approaching an overdraft situation or your limit. WHITE Can I ask you a straight factual question Brian - can the banks demand that another member of the family take responsibility for meeting repayments? CAPON There has to be - that other person would need to have a proper liability for that. In the majority of cases if the person - the customer - has an account in their own name and then you're asking another member of the family to repay that - to take on that - that is a decision for that person, the bank can't force someone who doesn't have a legal liability to repay that money. WHITE Sophie, just finally, what does MIND think the banks should do more to address problems like this? CORLETT Well we really think that first of all they need to know more about mental health so that they can distinguish between can't pay and won't pay if somebody's really struggling to pay but actually can't, so that they can deal with things like when it's appropriate to pursue someone for payment and when it's appropriate to try and find another means. But the other thing is they need to decide appropriate products, so that when people do approach them saying I have a mental health problem, I have a difficulty with overspending, where they can build in safeguards for people, so that you can offer a good banking service to someone with a mental health problem but it provides that person with the safeguards that they need. WHITE Sophie Corlett, Brian Capon thank you very much indeed. And we would clearly like to hear from other people about their experiences in this kind of area. Back to the You and Yours homepage The 大象传媒 is not responsible for external websites |
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