大象传媒

How did you both get into writing for the screen?

Matt: I did a drama degree, but I didn鈥檛 know how to get into television. As I was getting to the end of my degree, I saw a job advertised for a Script Assistant at . I just applied, basically out of panic as I was about to graduate and didn鈥檛 have a job and I got it. I started out then working in production which I did for five years. I started out as the Script Assistant (which is the junior around the office) and then got promoted to Script Editor, Story Editor, Story Producer but always knew that I wanted to write. A new producer came in who was going to take over at the Channel 5 show . I got my first gig as a writer on Family Affairs and then unfortunately as I was moving down to London to start a new life, I turned on the radio to find out that Family Affairs had been axed!

But two weeks later I got a place on , in its first year, so I did that for a year and wrote an episode of Doctors, Holby City, Casualty, EastEnders. I loved writing EastEnders, it was always my goal. If you鈥檇 asked me when I was 12 what I wanted to write for I would have said EastEnders. I stayed at EastEnders for 11 years and wrote 120 episodes. Then I took the leap into more prime time 9 o鈥檆lock shows.

Perrie: I loved TV growing up to the point where my mum would try and get me outside to play. I loved stories, but from my background I didn鈥檛 know anyone who worked in the media fullstop, let alone in television. So, it wasn鈥檛 even an option for me. I left school at 15 and did odd jobs and was writing little things on the side. Then I saw an advertisement in the local newspaper for a trainee journalist on the local paper. I鈥檇 always wanted to be a journalist but when I鈥檇 asked about it in Careers they said, 鈥測ou have to do a degree and a masters and a post-grad course鈥�. It all seemed so distant. So I applied for the traineeship with no qualifications at all, I didn鈥檛 even do A-levels, and managed to get the job, which was incredible.

Just being paid to write blew my mind. After five years on the newspaper, I started to feel a bit constrained by the facts! I鈥檇 go and interview somebody and think 鈥渢hat would be a much better news story if that person had died at that point or a riot broke out or something!鈥�. So, every Monday I鈥檇 look at the jobs in the Media Guardian and one week there was an advert for a storyliner on which I managed to get. I wasn鈥檛 very good at it, I would say! I really struggled with the rules of storylining and the rules of continuing drama, but I think the real skill of it is learning the formula and then being yourself within those rules. I had great Story Editors and Producers there who showed me how to be creative within the role. I always loved doing characters and loved doing talk-throughs. I hadn't known before getting it that that job even existed and it just blew my mind working in TV.

It was then that I knew that I really wanted to write scripts. ITV were giving opportunities for you to have a one-month sabbatical where you could do anything within TV production within the month. That meant that I got paid to have three weeks to write a script. That felt like such a gift as I would never have been able to afford on my own to have that time off to just write. That was when I wrote an Evening Play that I submitted to the 大象传媒 Writersroom for a competition that you were running. It was the first thing that I ever wrote, and it got down to, I think, the last ten entries and I got feedback from various people. That was really exciting for me at the time.

I showed it to a Script Editor at Emmerdale who was friends with who had just got the Exec Producer job on Hollyoaks. He saw it and offered me a writing job on Hollyoaks.

When did you meet?

Perrie: I think we met at a party when I was at Hollyoaks but you think that we met at EastEnders?

Matt: Yeah, I think that we met as writers on EastEnders. I鈥檇 been there for a few years and then Perrie joined. We just clicked immediately but it was quite a long time after that that we decided to work on something together.

Perrie: I stayed at EastEnders for three years as a core writer. I loved being part of the writers鈥� room and coming up with stories and dialogue. I鈥檇 grown up with EastEnders too. I found out about Matt that he was really funny, he could write really good moving dialogue and great characterisation, but he would always make me laugh.

Matt: Then we met again writing .

Perrie: I went to after EastEnders, which I loved. Then around the same time as Matt I also made the decision to leave continuing drama. I think we were both at the point where we wanted to explore creating original work.

How did Phoenix Rise come about?

Matt: In 2019 the 大象传媒 put a tender out for a new school drama. I was sent it by someone at the 大象传媒 asking if I would be interested in pitching for it. I found out that Perrie had been asked as well so we decided that two heads were better than one. It was quite a broad brief; it was just that they were looking for what is the of the 21st Century? What would it be? Perrie and I decided that we would try and come up with an idea together. Because we鈥檇 both written on Ackley Bridge and I鈥檇 done Waterloo Road, we felt that it was important for us to find out whether we could find a story engine for the show. The first day at a new school is not the premise of a show. What we really wanted to do was to try and crack a premise that gave it momentum and a story engine. We spent a long day together walking around London discussing it.

We were both interested in outsiders, and that鈥檚 when we hit on the idea of kids who鈥檇 been in a pupil referral unit and who were returning to mainstream school. That was our lightbulb moment because it gave the show a kicking off point but also that momentum going forward, which is that these kids are on their last chance. From episode one the stakes are set.

We wrote a pitch with that idea. Quite a few other people were pitching for the same slot and the development process took around two years and resulted in us writing a series bible and a first episode script. The first episode went down well, and we got commissioned to write a second episode and then in October 2021 we got commissioned for 20 episodes. We were working with as our production company.

What is it about the school precinct that is so brilliant for storytelling?

Perrie: Although I鈥檇 only previously written a school-based show on Ackley Bridge, I鈥檇 always loved writing the younger characters in continuing drama too and I鈥檇 done Hollyoaks. There鈥檚 something so exciting about that age group 鈥� 12 to 15. You鈥檝e got all your hormones going on, your body is changing, it鈥檚 a time of huge chemical change! You鈥檙e not an adult but you鈥檙e not a small child, and it鈥檚 all those firsts that you go through. The first falling out with your best friend, falling in love, making a friend, discovering the kind of person that you鈥檙e going to be. For this current generation especially I think it鈥檚 a really interesting time to write for young people, because of what they鈥檝e been through with Covid lockdowns, not being in school, not being with their friends. When we were working on Phoenix Rise it was right in the middle of lockdown and it was really clear for us that for some kids, school is actually a place that they go to to escape whatever is going on at home. So, if you take that away from them what are you left with and who are they when they come back into school?

We decided to set Phoenix Rise in a working-class area and there is a tendency for those kids to be portrayed in a certain negative way. The stories would always be about knife crime, county lines, drugs, that kind of thing. We wanted to show the realities and the hard times that these kids would face, but more importantly it鈥檚 about overcoming adversity and how friends can be lifesaving and life-changing. If you find your people then that can save your life. I think that鈥檚 never truer than when you鈥檙e at this age. We wanted to show that you will have problems but it鈥檚 not all doom and gloom.

Matt: The premise of the show is that at the outset these six outsiders are thrown together. I think as writers it鈥檚 far more appealing to be writing a group of characters who wouldn鈥檛 normally fit together. It will come as no surprise that the film was quite a big influence on this show because the idea was a bubbling melting-pot of angst and tensions but that the show forces them to become a sort of family, to become a unit. That was really appealing to us.

How did you find your six main characters?

Matt: We knew that we didn鈥檛 want to go for the tropes of a high school show with the jock, the geek etc. We wanted to go for characters who are flawed, who have an edge. We wanted to mix the ages too, with an 11-year-old having to mix and be in a group with a 15-year-old because that felt quite exciting. It鈥檚 not a natural fit.

We always said that they each possess a super-power. We felt that when they were presented with a tricky situation the combined force of all of them would be able to save them. So, one has got tech skills, one is a bit of a fighter, one is a bit of a smart-mouth, a bit of a hustler.

Perrie: We always said that we wanted it to be an ensemble cast. We didn鈥檛 want one lead character, but Billy is the heart of the show, especially in Series One and Two. He is brave and loyal, a classic archetype, but he goes through so much. With a character like that we throw everything at him. Anything awful that can happen happens to Billy, but he鈥檒l always come through! He鈥檚 so loyal with his friends and he manages to teach other kids in that group the value of loyalty and how important that is.

At the beginning he鈥檚 got huge problems because he鈥檚 caring for his little sister by himself. His dad has gone AWOL with mental health problems. We see the resilience of Billy and his loyalty to his little sister and his really intense love for her. That was exciting for us 鈥� a kid who is a kind of hero but who has nothing. How do you save the day when you have access to literally nothing other than your courage and your strength?

With Billy鈥檚 best friend Darcy 鈥� Darcy got in trouble because he could, he doesn鈥檛 listen to anyone, he鈥檚 arrogant. We always say that Darcy wants what Billy has got, which is heart. Billy would love to have what Darcy has got, which is a full fridge, decent clothes and loads of confidence.

Every one of the main six characters has got a back story and a complete life on their own but when they come together, they become better (or sometimes worse) versions of themselves. We鈥檝e treated these characters in just the way you would treat adult characters in an adult drama in that they have full lives, and we know how they would react in any situation. We wanted to bring that sense of hooks to Phoenix Rise that we鈥檇 learnt from working on drama for adults.

Matt: We also said that they each recognise something in each other that is a little lost. In the first episode they鈥檙e shown the boiler room. It鈥檚 not discussed but by the end of the episode they鈥檝e each gravitated towards it. We said that boiler room was a metaphor for the unloved, the disenfranchised. They all recognise the fact that they all don鈥檛 quite fit in or belong but by forming this group they find a strength.

Who would you say is the target audience for Phoenix Rise?

Matt: 11- to 15-year-olds, which is quite a wide age bracket. We spent a lot of time at the start of this process thinking about how we craft our stories so that we can appeal to younger and older audiences. We always knew that the show was going out as a 大象传媒 iPlayer commission (rather than on the C大象传媒 channel), it gave us a greater freedom. The 大象传媒 were always encouraging us to push boundaries.

Why was it important that the show is set in Coventry?

Matt: It was always set in Coventry from the moment we came up with the premise of the show. We鈥檙e both from the Midlands and it鈥檚 a forgotten region of the UK 鈥� I鈥檝e spent my entire life with people asking if I鈥檓 northern or southern with no assumption that there鈥檚 anything in the middle! Coventry was the most bombed UK city in the second world war so there鈥檚 no greater emblem of triumph over adversity 鈥� the phoenix is the city鈥檚 emblem. If you鈥檙e doing a story about resilience, then what better city is there to set it in?

Perrie: When I was growing up in Northampton, we all used to go raving in Coventry! It was a big spot for raves and my mum used to go out there when she was a teenager because of the ska scene, with the and other bands. I think it鈥檚 got a really rich history of music which was born from the melting pot of immigrants due to the huge motor industry. It鈥檚 like the Detroit of the UK! Irish, West Indians, Africans, Turks all working alongside one another. Out of that you always get amazing food and amazing music. We really wanted to show that. We鈥檝e got brilliant local artists to write bespoke tracks for the show. I only wanted to work on the show if it could be the sort of show that I would have loved at that age, so the music, the casting and the setting were crucial. We wanted it to look different and sound different. That鈥檚 what we鈥檙e proudest of about Phoenix Rise.

Any top tips for aspiring writers?

Perrie: On a practical note 鈥� read scripts. I鈥檇 never seen a script in my life but you can read them on the 大象传媒 Writers website. That is so helpful. Not necessarily for dialogue but you have to know where to get into a scene and where to get out. Get in at the last possible moment and get out at the first possible moment. You can see that if you read a really good script. You don鈥檛 have lots of build-up and dragging it out. You also see the different types of writers and genres. Just read loads of scripts and practice 鈥� write and write and write.

Matt: Try and get work in production. It鈥檚 such a great foundation. I think I learnt more from working behind the scenes on how to structure TV. Knowing how TV works behind the scenes 鈥� I can鈥檛 exaggerate how important that is to a writer. Really for me it was pure chance and I鈥檓 incredibly glad that I worked in production for so long as I think that I really learnt how to write TV by working behind the scenes.

Perrie: Also (although hopefully this is changing now) but when I was starting out it was really difficult to go and work at a studio if you can鈥檛 afford it as they were all based so far away 鈥� in London mainly. That鈥檚 what I loved about Hollyoaks, that it was in Liverpool. I鈥檓 hopeful that the industry is going to try and start making it easier for people who don鈥檛 have much money to do a bit of paid training and get some experience. It鈥檚 probably the single most important thing we both did, learning how to make a TV show, and you can do that in a two- or three-week placement, you can get a good basic understanding.

Series 1 and 2 of Phoenix Rise are available now on 大象传媒 iPlayer with Series 3 landing on Friday 24th May