大象传媒

So, ONLY Nexus One owners can use the iPlayer, everyone else can't because Froyo is not available for any other phones yet, including the idential-but-with-keyboard Motorola Droid (aka Milestone).

Android 2.2 hasn't actually been released yet has it?
I know there are test builds floating around but I don't think they're final.

Droid owners - follow here to get details of the Froyo .

"Devices supporting 鈥淔royo鈥� and Flash Player 10.1 are expected to include the Dell Streak, Google Nexus One, HTC Evo, HTC Desire, HTC Incredible, DROID by Motorola, Motorola Milestone, Samsung Galaxy S and others." from

So, you've C&D'd a perfectly functioning third-party player out of existance, one that worked on older devices and had absolutely zero reliance on Flash. And you've replaced it with something that only works on newer devices and requires Flash.

Wow. Just... wow!

I thought you were trying to dissuade people from acquiring content via "other means", Yet you constantly just provide incentives.

Madness. Idiocy. And ultimately futile.

Why not use 3gpp for streaming? It would be available to all 3G phones - not just smartphones.

Best of all, you already have the infrastructure. The 大象传媒 used to use 3gpp streaming for Mobile TV on Vodafone* (and no doubt other operators).

So, a cheap effective way to open up iPlayer to *all* phones - not just the well marketed ones. Why not use it?

Not sure if you've answered this elsewhere.

Terence
*I worked for Vodafone at the time of the trials.

@Tiggs: Yes, I thought the standard thing to do in the IT industry when someone develops something cool is to give them a job, not slap a C&D on them.

The reasons for choosing flash over a more open and accessible standard seem fairly flimsy.

How can you justify doing specific work for iphone users which don't support flash but not for all other mobile users? Surely if the savings of using flash are that great then you'd have to wait until it's available on the iphone to support that platform?

I'm curious as to what extra infrastructure the 大象传媒 would need to invest in to supply the HTML5/MP4 streams that are already served to iPhones to Android devices?

I wish I could take advantage of the wonderful new mobile iPlayer on my HTC Hero. I used to be able to use the excellent beebPlayer however that was shutdown by the 大象传媒 on the promise of up-coming official support for Android. Unfortunately by forcing all non-Apple devices to use Flash* (requiring a minimum of Android 2.2) a large portion of existing Android phones are left out in the cold.

It's telling that a year after my phone was released I still can't use iPlayer on the move while Apple get support literally weeks after the iPad went on general availability. It's as though the 大象传媒 has shares in Cupertino based device manufacturers.

* I am aware of the excuses the 大象传媒 uses to justify forcing Linux to use exploitable Flash binaries or get_iplayer/rtmpdump workarounds. However most of these evaporate on a mobile device like Android. What gives?

How depressing! Headline should read iPlayer will never be available for the majority of current android phones.

I whole heartedly agree with Mo's last comment. What amazes me is a complete lack of response from the 大象传媒 in addressing the Android 2.1 and below devices. To say iPlayer will be supported by Flash is ridiculous. Flash isn't out yet even on brand new top of the range Android phones like the HTC Desire, and won't be out for a while yet. Older Android phones will never get a Froyo 2.2 release capable of running Flash, and won't have the horse power to run it either.

However, even the most lowly of Android phones, the original G1, was capable of playing the iPlayer provided streams via the BeebPlayer, until you knocked that on the head.

If you are developing a high end, Flash based Android player, great, but please support the current 99.99% of Android phones that currently don't have Flash, by enabling the iPhone stream for Android. It is such a trivial thing to do. Why aren't you doing it ? And why aren't you replying to specific comments about Android made over and over again ?

Spin aside, the 大象传媒's unstated policy is this:

The iPlayer will only ever be made available on closed platforms.

No amount of complaining, or reasoned argument about why this position is futile and wrong-headed, will change the 大象传媒's position.

We can point out that there's no technical reason why the iPhone transcodes can't be made available to Android players. The only reason it doesn't work already is that the system specifically checks for characteristics of the iPhone browser (JavaScript DOM extensions, user agent headers, and stream-fetching behaviour).

We can point out that the whack-a-mole school of software development, wasting resources building a special version for each blessed platform, is a monstrously poor use of the licence fee when conforming to a small set of standards would remove this requirement.

We can point out that worries that providing this content to Android devices will result in them being taken off the device are moot, because tools that download the iPhone version already exist. (Indeed, the fact that internal 大象传媒 memos inaccurately refer to these as "piracy tools" shows a depressing lack of understanding of the phenomenon of unauthorised distribution.)

We can point out that much higher quality versions of the same content are already being broadcast unencrypted through the air, and that locking down low-bandwidth transcoded versions is therefore unlikely to have any impact on the unauthorised distribution of this content.

But no. There's no point. They aren't going to change their minds. Instead, we get spin, and, finally, a version of the iPlayer for Android that almost no existing handsets can actually support. Thanks, I guess.

The iPad, lest we forget, got its iPlayer before even a single device had been sold in this country. I know that the tweaks to the PS3 version required to permit this were minor, but the tweaks required to permit the iPhone version to work on Android would have been equally minor.

And I just wasted ten minutes writing this, because it won't change a thing.

I've got a nexus one, so arguably have the least to complain about, but even I can see that this is just wrong. beebPlayer was a wonderful app that covered for your lack of Android presence for years. It didn't allow people to steal programs, it didn't cost anything, and Dave Johnston did a great job supporting everyone. It's what you should have produced yourselves, and I'm shocked that you didn't just offer him a few thousand pounds for it (perhaps you did?). By all means experiment with producing a version that is compatible with flash on a small screen, but don't use that as an excuse to cut everyone else off.

Alex, The 大象传媒 considers Android to be more open than iPhone. I.e. it is slightly easier to get root on Android phones than iPhone devices (inc iPad). I'm not sure this is technically sound, I don't follow iPhone much, but I gather it's at least possible to "jailbreak" iPhone devices. That is to say, the Android might not be that much more closed than any iPhone. Whether there are other biases towards Apple products at the 大象传媒 is something we'll never find out.

threedaymonk: Though not definitively proven yet, the iPhone HTML video player appears to be locked down using SSL/TLS authentication. The 大象传媒 make arrangements with vendors to obtain the vendor's private "Root Certificate Authority" (Root CA), and the vendor installs client certs into each device signed by their CA public key. E.g. the 大象传媒 in their TLS handshake Client Certificate Request indicate they will accept certificates signed by CAs such as "Apple iPhone Device CA" (from memory that's the string), a Sony PS3 CA (鈥淪ony LFX Project BIVL" whatever that is), one from "ADB" (IPTV software vendor), and a few 大象传媒 CAs. Though, I believe you know all this already. ;)

It would be really interesting if someone with a jailbroken iPhone/iPad would extract the keystore from their device and try loading any client certificates into the keystore for a non-Apple browser and then try browsing the bigscreen iPlayer to see what happens (with an iPad User-Agent, obv).

There are still so many questions about all this:

- What is the process by which the 大象传媒 decides a platform is sufficiently closed that it can be allowed access to HTML video? The few documents we've obtained so far (see my blog) are heavily redacted unfortunately, and don't answer this

- What is the process by which software developers developing IPTV systems can arrange to have their own certificates recognised by the 大象传媒?

- Is this blog article the one the 大象传媒 told me would be addressing content protection issues in answer to a recent FOI request?

It is just baffling that the 大象传媒 is going so far out of its way to frustrate so many users in accessing iPlayer; while at the same time it also goes out of its way to enable access for a few, specific consumer devices (especially ones from Apple). You're burning away much good will 大象传媒..

Oh, Adobe Flash is not going to work on anything but the more recent/powerful Android phones!

Paul Jakma:

the iPhone HTML video player appears to be locked down using SSL/TLS authentication.

You mean iPad, right?

It's all the kind of corporate decision making that has no relation to reality. The same sort of mindset that would take away a car park to build a new building that will generate parking requirement.
(I've seen that happen, and benefitted from it. Car-share when you're the one with teh car park means you get the car for teh day...)

I thought it was dumb when I benefitted from that sort of mindset. So now that the same sort of decision-making is actually inconveniencing me, there's even less chance of me agreeing.

The wrong decision has been made. And the worst thing is that, ultimately, it's not really going to inconvenience the people who care. The 大象传媒 merely becomes known for being inferior to the "unofficial methods".
Maybe only amongst the techies. But they're the ones you really want on-side.

Alex, yeah, I meant iPad. :) The root CA says "iPhone Device" though. I.e. I bet its accessible to iPhones if they go to the HTML video iPlayer.

FYI: I'm not an Android or iPhone/Pad owner, just a Linux user.

Can't Flash die already? If there's a perfectly good method of streaming to one mobile device, why not use it on the others that support it rather that slowing all the other devices down and wasting battery power with flash?

Despite all the posts about it noone from the 大象传媒 has actually clarified why they forced the brilliant beebPlayer off the market!

I used it on my G1 (HTC Dream) and then on my HTC Hero and was shocked that after so long it was forced offline rather than being "bought" by the 大象传媒 and rebranded as the "大象传媒 iPlayer for Android".

The idea of using Flash 10.1 streaming from within a webpage already gives me the impression of a less than user-friendly experience on the devices that can actually install Froyo.

Thankfully I rooted my Hero long ago and for most people there is still time to root and move to a custom ROM such as VillianROM which will be bringing Froyo to the Hero!

Please 大象传媒... Respond/Sort it!

This is another entirely pointless post that no-one at the 大象传媒 will dare answer, but still pleasing to read by everyone who agrees.

What's with the love of Apple? I mean, seriously Alex has got to be right when he says the 大象传媒 has shares in Apple Inc.

I don't pay my licence fee so some Apple fanbois in the 大象传媒 can have a rave at my expense.

Can we have an official explanation on the C&D of BeebPlayer?

No? I thought not.

I've just re-read this and putting aside all the issues about Flash,Android 2.2 and having to have a powerful phone, I just CANNOT BELIEVE you've made the bit rate so high as to make it WIFI only.

The whole point of having iPlayer on a mobile phone is to be able to watch it on the train, or on the bus, not tied to a WIFI hotspot or home WLAN.

Oh, and let me guess, you won't be able to to download programmes to watch off-line. What a complete fail.

I have a Nexus One and Froyo 2.2 which was pushed out today. Flash 10.1 beta 3 is installed but iPlayer mobile does not work.

The flash player just keeps trying to load the video.

Is this service actually active? or am I doing something wrong

Bring back Beebplayer. I don't want to run some bloated flash app.

Shutting down a 3rd party app like BeebPlayer is shocking conduct by the 大象传媒 (assumuing it was the 大象传媒 and if it was - ou should be ashamed of yourselves). It would be like insisting which browser, or which TV I use to access the site. Terrible.

Anyway, I want a standalong app like Beebplayer, not some horrible flash thing.

Cheers Nick, v informative.

Have to agree with other comments. Killing BeebPlayer, which runs on all Android devices in order to push your own Flash based iPLayer which, according to most reports I have read, runs very poorly, the framerate being so low its more like a slideshow.

I notice there is a new iPlayer client on the Android market (myPlayer). Works OK, nowhere as slick as BeebPlayer, however. I wonder how long it will be before this is C&D'd.

Its interesting that myPlayer appeared almost the same time as BeebPlayer was killed, particularly as myPlayer boldly displays the 大象传媒 iPlayer logo. Is myPlayer licensed by the 大象传媒, and is its appearance related to the demise of BeebPlayer?

psp888 writes ...
"I have a Nexus One and Froyo 2.2 which was pushed out today. Flash 10.1 beta 3 is installed but iPlayer mobile does not work.

The flash player just keeps trying to load the video.

Is this service actually active? or am I doing something wrong."

Well, its not just you, I am having exactly the same problem. Flash is working fine on all other sites on my N1/2.2 (including video links embedded in the rest of the 大象传媒 site) but iplayer link just refuse to load. Even more frustrating, I was able to access iplayer through the desktop site up until last week but now it just automatically diverts to the mobile site.

While I can appreciate the frustration of all those who want beebplayer back, the 大象传媒 might also like to know that the service they are promoting isn't even working properly!

Update for Droid/Milestone users:

It's working now!

Mine is now working too. And I have to say it is excellent.
Hope others can get sorted soon as well.

Nick - how is it drifting off topic to discuss why the 大象传媒 is artificially restricting the availability of it's programmes? The 大象传媒 is yet to justify why apple devices should be treated differently to other mobile devices and allowed access without flash.

Glad to hear the system is working, no 2.2 yet for me (HTC Desire so due later) - any comment from Nick or others re. the comments about required bitrate to stream? I'd agree with other comments that when viewing on the move I'm not that fussed about a great bitrate, the main thing is to have consistent sound (that's more disruptive when it breaks up than the picture is) - could it not offer an adaptive bitrate that would still work on 3G connections??

Congratulations,
You've managed to reduce the functionality and limit what's left to members of the Vodafone or 3 network.
Good job 大象传媒, good job.

The site was absolutely fine before you 'upgraded' it; now I can't listen to live radio at all and I can't watch any TV over 3G. The fact that it works but isn't enabled for people on certain carriers seems dubious to me and needs proper explaination.

Have 10.1 on my HTC Hero, and seeing unsupported page.


Do I need to visit a special URL? Perhaps a ps3iplayer type site???

I find this debate about different approaches to streaming content very interesting, but I think a comparison with terrestrial broadcast transmission history makes good food for thought :-

All analogue TV's in the UK use PAL encoding. Its a standard, and all manufacturers equipment was produced to work for it.

Imagine what would have happened if Apple had produced a UK TV that worked only on NTSC or SECAM, would the 大象传媒 have rejigged its broadcast infrastructure to accommodate it ? Of course not. That's why I think whats going on at the moment is bonkers.

Clearly in a debate between Flash vs HTML5, its clear which is an open industry standard, and which isn't. The same is true of codecs if you compare VP8 with MPEG-4.

Its clear that in the longer term the 大象传媒 will be acting in the interests of consumers if it pursues a single set of open industry standards for transmission of its content. If it has concerns about rights management it should address those through standards bodies, but be mindful of the fact we are all used to videotaping TV programmes in the 'old days'.

One standard going forward will reduce the cost of the bbc platform, and anyone who doesn't want to support it can let consumers decide if they want to buy a platform that doesn't support iplayer - most, if not all will though.

The 大象传媒, by pandering to corporate interests, is putting the interests of business in front of the long term interests of license fee payers.

I look forward to the day that I can access video on the 大象传媒 News pages on my iPhone. When oh when will the Beeb use HTML5 to enable me and millions of other iPhone users to do this?

It seems that 3rd party developers are putting the 大象传媒 to shame until they get slapped with a C&D.

I was using beebplayer on my HTC Magic and Nexus One. Since that no longer works I'll be using myPlayer. Works perfectly on 3g or wifi and no flash required.

I have a N1 (2.1), contrary to some posts, I can use Beeb Player. I would be unhappy if Beeb player were not available. Most Android phones are probably unlikely to run flash well, so this seems very restrictive, throw in the requirement for wi fi rather than 3g, and its completely self defeating.

I understand (I think) the reluctance of the 大象传媒 to go down the HTML5 route since as I understand it this requires proprietary codecs etc. which cost money.

Surely there must be a better way

richard (40.) - your comment

'I understand (I think) the reluctance of the 大象传媒 to go down the HTML5 route since as I understand it this requires proprietary codecs etc. which cost money'

is incorrect. VP8 is a high quality open source codec which doesn't cost any money at all. Its in pre-release versions of major browsers now.

Please see for more info on this from Google.

There is also absolutely no conceivable way that the 大象传媒 don't already have all the MPEG/h264 etc. licences they need.

Dear Team,
I am not able access on any 大象传媒 Services from my i Phone.
Always mentioning, this service is not available on your locations.
This service is not meant for I Phone.
Ado Flash player any versions are not available in iPhone applications.
I am a regular reader,writer to 大象传媒 world Services by comments,editors and sports blogs from now and then.
I request you to introduce your services to i Phone models at the earliest.

It goes from bad to worse.......

It seems that, for many of us, even if our phones are upgraded to Android 2.2, we still won't be able to use iPlayer because it is compiled as native code for ARM v7 processors and many of the earlier phones have ARM v6 processors :-(

This Cyanogen Forum post gives more details.

Nice one 大象传媒 / Adobe.

I should have said Adobe Flash (that iPlayer relies on) is compiled for ARMv7, not iPlayer itself.

I just got Froyo, but can't get iPlayer flash to work. It complains that I can't stream on 3G except on Vodafone. Even though I am on Vodafone. beebPlayer still works a treat though, so well done beebPlayer.

Those initial posters should probubly read this :

I see no reason to believe Dave was hit with a C&D, he certainty hasn't said he was.

Lestat42: Dave said he was sorry to have "ceased" - which is half of a C&D...

Nick: the "self build" you refer to in that 大象传媒 Trust document appears to be describing an iPlayer service/infrastructure run by a third party - NOT an app to access the existing 大象传媒 infrastructure at no extra cost to the 大象传媒. Could you explain the relevance, please?

I am very eager to find out what the requirements brief was in upgrading the 大象传媒 news website. A fairly well functioning site has been replaced with something that groans and creaks when accessed from a mobile device. What a waste of money and resources!!

The video on the news site was a joke and is still a joke. Is there an agenda to please iPhone and iPad users at the first instance?

Should you not support all the devices as priority when you undertake a huge upgrade? I have had a stressful time trying to access the new site on my HTC Hero. The new site won't load. When it does, takes ages and loads partially or throws unsupported page error.

I am a web developer myself. I do not want to hear compatibility issues considering the kind of resources available at your disposal. I would expect a site that works efficiently across all platforms and devices after an upgrade. There is good money available to 大象传媒 if the multi-million pound salaries to the top dummies are pruned a little.

You have simply gone back in time.

While I can understand the 大象传媒 blocking BeebPlayer on their syndication policy, I cannot understand why they are backing flash as a new platform, Flash isn't supported by numerous companies, such as Apple. So the 大象传媒 will still need to have two separately encoded streams available for Apple devices and other mobile devices with Flash.

Having just tried to play a video over WiFi on my HTC Desire with android 2.2 installed, trying to get the video to fill the screen or even play without dropping frames is a struggle, say I wanted to skip to halfway through the program, I can't drag the progress indicator across the bottom, because this translates to me trying to move the page, so I have to zoom in more and more until the progress bar fills the screen and then try and click where I want to go. Terrible.

It is clear that the 大象传媒 is seriously lacking in mobile development. BeebPlayer from 2 years ago plays better quality video, at a better FPS, all while consuming less battery life. Don't expect people to use this new service and like it, although BeebPlayer has been removed from the market, I expect its user base to increase dramatically, through peer to peer sharing

Here's a questions ... why would the 大象传媒 stop me streaming over 3G on T-Mobile? What possible difference does it make if I'm not on Vodafone or 3? Answer: None at all. Would have loved to try this out but can't for idiotic reasons. Maybe I'll try when I'm at home... but then again I can just use it through my FreeSat box.

MyPlayer still works... get it together 大象传媒 and stop favouring iPhone users.

As an Xbox 360 owning, Android owning (on T-Mobile) user of iPlayer... well... it's a giggle, isn't it. Is there a particular reason the Beeb hates me?

I jest, but only just. I dream of a day I can download iPlayer footage at home, and have it to view on my commute. I fantasize of a day I can stream iPlayer from anywhere.

Having read the document linked above, if the Beeb is to refuse 3rd party apps to syndicate content, they'd better do it themselves, eh? Right, except the Trust has put a block on new apps. So the Beeb won't work on Android apps, and they won't allow anyone else to work on Android apps.

I see a problem here. Especially having tried Adobe Air for Android (It doesn't work with the desktop player, +1 for standards compliance). I've tried the Flash 10.1 route - Flash on Android has a 0 day exploit, eats my battery, and stutters all over the place.

Thanks Beeb.

@52

I'm right there with you. Only, ecause of my choices of platform, I'm not a user of iPlayer. I'd like to be, only my console is an Xbox. My phone is Android. my mobile media player of choice is my PSP. (Note: Why would I waste phone battery on watching videos, when I have a PSP which isn't quite as critical if I drain the battery...?)
My content watching position of preference is in front of the TV, (22" screen, decent sound systen, armchair). And if I must watch from the computer (smaller screen, less comfy chair, inferior speakers), I use XBMC or VLC. These are my players of choice.

Oh, 大象传媒, why do you hate those of us who have our favoured media players?
It's a good job I (genuinely) don't download 大象传媒 shows I've missed. I might be able to do nefarious things like...

...grow to love shows I missed. And buy the DVDs or Blu-rays. Which I don't.

Oh, wait...

Some of the newer low/mid end Android phones ship with Froyo, but do not support Adobe Flash (LG Optimus One) which is too resource intensive, and consequently cannot use the Flash based iPlayer. These handsets could, until recently, access 大象传媒 content using myPlayer.

Those Android handsets which can use the Flash based iPlayer are restricted to accessing content through a wifi connection. This is effectively worthless.

If the 大象传媒 is unable to provide a service that is at least as good as that which is being provided for them - free of charge - by third-parties, then perhaps it should just let them get on with it.

It seems that 3rd party developers are putting the 大象传媒 to shame until they get slapped with a C&D.

I was using beebplayer on my HTC Magic and Nexus One. Since that no longer works I'll be using myPlayer. Works perfectly on 3g or wifi and no flash required.

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