大象传媒

No comment about the live radio and TV in the Desktop, when will this happen? Please replicate the SATELLITE red button service in this too, which for me will placate the loss of one feed on freeview last autumn.

Why do you need to wait for flash support to deliver to Android? Can't you do anything similar to the existing mobile platforms which don't use flash?

Relying on flash will mean it's only available on the latest android devices rather than being available to all.

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Great post, and 80% of my irritations with the new version appear there, so I look forward to hear the results of you chatting to the dev teams about these issues. Please keep us posted!

One that annoys me is that there's no pop-out info when I hover over items in the collapsed "friends" section as there is with the featured/most popular/for you sections. I don't really want to have to click through to a programme page (or expand the section) just to find out what those tiny programme images represent. Surely the info box could pop out to the left?

Cheers for the great work!

Re the use of keyboard shortcuts - any chance that they "keyboard codes" generated by a Windows Media Center remote (or a "Windows Media keyboard" or indeed generic media keyboard) can also be made to work with the Flash browser-based playback AND the Adobe Air Desktop player? Please?

The keyboard scan codes are listed at

"We're currently waiting on Flash support on Android to deliver a service for that platform".

I note with interest Dave Johnston's beebplayer used to work, and there are more Android devices out there (many on 1.5 and 1.6) that are a long way from Flash support.

How come the rule about "number of devices" was not applied to the new Apple product?

I'm really impressed by the new beta and love the new account feature that allows me to keep my iPlayer content consistent across sessions/different devices by starring and recommending shows. However, I was really disappointed to see the big screen player had been chosen for the iPad; opening the current iPlayer beta (at beta.bbc.co.uk/iplayer) on the iPad feels like a much better fit - its easy to navigate, allows you to browse all content and allows you to see shows that you've starred on a computer or stuff recommended by friends, it isn't in the slight bit clumsy or difficult to use on the touch screen interface and just feels right. Of course it isn't possible to view the flash video, but why can't the big screen streams be used within the iPlayer interface when an iPad or iPhone is detected for instance?

Thanks for responding to the keyboard shortcuts thing! It's bugged me for a long time. Often someone will come to the door, or the phone will ring and I'm left scrabbling for the mouse to pause iPlayer.

As no keyboard buttons do anything (except tab) by default, adding space for pausing and perhaps volume up/down keys would be appreciated.

I also have RemoteBuddy on my mac that turns presses on my Mac's remote into keyboard presses, which obviously doesn't work with iPlayer.

Downloaded "Lost: The mystery of Flight 447" soon after it was shown (as streaming is not possible on my Mum's old internet!) and it strangely said that it could not be watched until Jun 2nd - Unusual, as I hadn't seen that behaviour before. All day Jun 2nd, it said it would be available at 2:21, now on Jun 3rd it will be available tomorrow - What's going on ?!?!

Other than that - I think the new interface is great.

James,

Why can't you just undo the deliberate technical checks in the HTML5 video iPlayer which cause it to be (technically) ? That would fix things immediately for many Android phones, and for many other platforms which you don't have plans to support explicitly.

Why does the 大象传媒 tell us that it's doing everything it can to bring iPlayer to as wide an audience as possible, when the truth is the 大象传媒 is expending technical effort on limiting platform availability?

Thanks for the reply James. Good news.

I often go straight to the comedy category. It shows my all the comedy TV shows, but then if I decide I want to see radio shows instead and click on the big Radio link, it takes me back to the homepage instead of staying in the comedy category. It would also be nice if there was still a TV & Radio option.

Also, I have added comedy to 'My Categories', but by default the 'My Categories' section is collapsed. Since it's the items I want to access most often, it should be expanded to start with.

Something which would be quite nice would be if I was able to blacklist a programme so it never showed up. For example, 'Snog, marry, avoid'. I'd be quite happy never to see that listed again.

The white arrow in each box at the top, which expands the box, is a little confusing. It looks like it should hide the item (especially the smaller items on the right), instead of maximising it.

When viewing a category, the big thumbnails at the top only have a title and episode number beneath them, which the small thumbnails have extra details. It would be helpful if the large thumbnails also had the extra details.

Some improvements I like:

The popup radio player. (Although I'd like to have it only pop up if I tell it to.)

The TV listings - especially that it shows what is currently on air.

I too find it surprising that the 大象传媒 already has a standards based HTML/h.264 solution that is artificially restricted to Apple products. If it wasn't for the 大象传媒's avowed device neutrality policy I'd suspect the 大象传媒 got kickbacks from Apple to keep it so.

Too little time has been spent recently in maintaining the functions of the current stable release of iPlayer, too many changes have been made at once, the release of this so called Beta is early and has more the feel of an Alpha.

Programmes are failing to appear for streaming or for download (these are ones that previous episodes have been available) The feed-back from formal complaints submitted via the form have been slow or non-existent. There have been changes made to the feedback for restricting people to 350 characters, what hope is there to explain a problem when restricted to a sound-bite.

The iPlayer FAQs are in disarray, links are being discontinued even those within FAQs fail to work, is a redirect beyond the abilities of iPlayer staff. The formatting of iPlayer FAQs is frequently browser dependant and message-board postings display with rogue alpha-numerics (related to code for special characters)

It is a long standing complaint that there is not the simplest of information given when a know problem is being tackled, causing people to assume they have a problem rather than the 大象传媒 has one. The result being that there are bad tempered postings on the message-board and loyal users becoming exasperated.

Now to the Beta itself, in my opinion Beta is still to come there are so many missing useful featchers that were working fine in the stable release. There is no regional station options, I do not want to see listing for London but for my 大象传媒 station. The A-Z search has been removed; I can find programmes by name using the mouse with the A-Z but have to use the keyboard to search in the Beta, I as I suspect are others use iPlayer not hunched over the computer but at a distance from the keyboard as part of a whole entertainment package.

Similar to the main A-Z being removed is the channel A-Z/Most recent listing, this is useful when wanting to display only what is availablle to watch without the "comming soon" and "not available" programmes being listed as they are on a schedule page. Have you tried to explain to a child that just because they can see the picture for xyz programme in the listing you can't make it play.

And want to know why the feedback seems (NB seems) mostly positive, the people who like the Beta are not long term users, those that are will have thrown up their hands in horour and reverted back.

Change for the sake of change especially if it adds complication breaches the golden rule of KISS.

"2. At 11:29am on 03 Jun 2010, Chris wrote:
Why do you need to wait for flash support to deliver to Android? Can't you do anything similar to the existing mobile platforms which don't use flash?

Relying on flash will mean it's only available on the latest android devices rather than being available to all."

Hear-hear! My T-Mobile G1 should NOT! be considered legacy! (yet)

Alex,

It's not cause of kick-backs, it's cause the 大象传媒 wants control over what happens with content. The 大象传媒 believes Flash gives them that control. It appears the 大象传媒 believes that standards based transports do not give sufficient control - in particular, they believe it does not allow them to "authenticate" the platform.

Of course, Flash is problematic for many devices (power constrained ones particularly). In such a case the 大象传媒 believes that certain platforms like Apple, PS3, etc.. are:

a) hard for "pirates" to get content off.

b) possible to authenticate the platform

Where by "authenticate" 大象传媒 management in this context generally means: reliably discriminate between this platform and any imposters (e.g. via device specific quirks in the browser or its Javascript engine). I have only verified b for the Apple iPad, but I presume the 大象传媒 generally applies this. Note that the 大象传媒 expends not inconsiderable technical effort into implementing the authentication - effort which explicitly LIMITS the availability of the HTML5 player, and effort which is diverted from improving the functionality of the player.

For such devices the 大象传媒 is willing to risk things somewhat and use standard-based transport. E.g. with Apple and Sony PS3s, the end-user can not easily load their own code onto the device, except with the approval of Apple or Sony. Thus, the 大象传媒 feels that is can be relatively sure content will neither make it off the device, nor be watched after the window, etc.

The problem with Android is that users can load their own code onto the things, and so the 大象传媒 considers these devices to be insecure and so deliberately cuts off from the open, standards-based interfaces it has available. Instead, you will need to wait for Adobe to finish its port of Flash (which is having problems, I gather) or for the 大象传媒 to create an Android specific app. Note that Flash need not become available for older versions of Android.

Note that there are lots of other devices in the same boat as Flash. E.g. web-enabled digital TVs from a variety of far eastern manufacturers; other smart-phone platforms; Free Software platforms; etc.

The really sad part about the 大象传媒s' technical investment into this "platform authentication" sillyness is that at the same time it is making the same content available to ordinary PCs via Flash, where it is quite easy to capture the video. It is making the same content available over the airwaves via DVB. There is no evidence that pirates were abusing the non-standard, but accessible interfaces previously used by 3rd party iPlayer implementations (had such evidence existed, the 大象传媒 presumably would have made it available to me in answer to my recent FOI request) to any significant extent, compared to abuse of the over-the-air DVB broadcasts.

Basically, the 大象传媒 is putting quite a bit of effort into making it harder for *legitimate* users to access iPlayer with whatever devices they want, for no empirically sound anti-piracy reason. This is at the cost both of those users whose devices are not supported, but also those users whose devices ARE supported - think what the 大象传媒 could have done instead, think what 3rd parties could do instead if the 大象传媒 stopped being such control-freaks!

FWIW, it appears likely the 大象传媒 is hoping to extend its control over end-user TV devices with Project Canvas, so far as the future of TV == internet TV.

corrections:

"Lots of other devices in the same boat as Flash" -> should be ".. in the same boat, without Flash".

Also, the platform authentication point is a bit muddled through bad editing: Seemingly, the 大象传媒 don't think open-standards (e.g. HTML) generally allow for sufficient control. However, they will use those standards for certain platforms they consider "closed" AND where they believe they can "authenticate" the platform, they will use HTML, etc.

I really wish I could afford a copy editor. ;)

I note with interest Adobe AIR for Android:

I'm another who is worried about the "low bandwidth version" missing, but I see you're going to add it.

I love the new layout and will start using it when the low bandwidth option is added.

Android has overtaken Apple for installed base. There is no excuse for not having a solution already in place. And one that does NOT rely on Flash please as this will not be supported by all devices. Just make an app!!!

In the iPlayer Beta my friends recommedations aren't showing up in my "Friends" tab, even though they are showing up when I click on that friends iD page (it's possibly because they made there recommedations before i'd signed up?)

Please could the keyboard shortcuts work in full screen mode? Even with tabbing in it this doesn't seems to work. This would be very helpful.

I would love to see a HTML5, H.264 version for those of us who want a smoother play back on older/less powerful computers. Even just as an option for people on older processors like PowerPC. It seems unfair that the iPhone/iPad users can access H.264 and the rest of us have to put up with inefficient Flash.

@16,17 Paul Jakma

Sadly this is most likely the case, but as you say it's ultimately counter-productive. Protection of digital content is basically bust the first time someone gets an un-DRMed copy, from then on it's just the scale of duplication you can control.

All this obsession with closing off "open" platforms means is more effort is expended trying to work around the 大象传媒's technical measures (get_iplayer, rtmpdump etc.), usually resulting in the very un-DRMed file being stored on a file-system somewhere as a precursor to playing it. If the users could have just played the stream directly this wouldn't be a problem. That also ignores the many ways you can get stuff off the iFamily (rooted phones).

I suspect the 大象传媒 knows this all too well but still goes through the motions to satisfy the licensing requirements of content.

Things that irritate me about the Beta:

1. The radio pop-ups. For me they serve no benefit, but just clutter the desktop and get in the way. Let the user choose.

2. The new radio display does not show the full program description. To read this I have to click through to the program website, which opens in another new window (more clutter). Also, please show the actual program expiry date/time.

3. It is no longer possible to list all programmes from a particular station. I use this regularly when browsing for interesting radio programmes. I now need to click through all seven days of the schedule, or the category lists - a lot more clicking and repetition.

4. When using the Categories lists, the default listing is now Recent, not A-Z. The A-Z list is much more compact, often nearly half the length of the 'Recent' list. If it is not to be default, it would be great if iPlayer would remember my choice of 'A-Z'.

While I like some of the new features in the Beta, these annoyances and bugs were enough to drive me quickly back to the old version.

The Favourites panel is a good idea, but has several missing features:
- An option to order favourites by expiry time is desired, as the current expiry information is very limited.
- If I accidentally add a program to my Favourites by clicking the 'star' icon, I can't quickly remove it by clicking the 'star' again.
- I would like to be able to add only certain episodes of a series to my Favourites. This way, I can remove episodes I have already watched, or for factual programmes I many only be interested in certain episodes.

Finally, another request for starting/stopping by pressing 'space' on the keyboard. The current keyboard interface is clunky and not very useful.

Hope you stop the radio player using a popup by default soon, then I will be able to start using the beta again. I left the beta as soon as I discovered that terrible idea!

Also as everyone else is saying there is no reason why you need Flash to do an Android version, if you do use Flash you will be severeley limiting the amount of devices that can use it.

Regarding keyboard shortcuts: the tab controls have been in there for over a year, but I think that what most people (me included) want are keyboard *short*cuts, e.g. press Space (or Ctrl+P) to toggle play/pause, Rather than have to toggle through multiple controls using the tab key. The Media Player actually has hooks in place for single key/key combination shortcuts (I know, because I put them in there some 18 months ago), but they were shelved while various departments argued over which shortcuts were most appropriate. Please can I ask that the keyboard shortcuts get re-implemented to accompany the live launch of the iPlayer 3?

(As for the full-screen keyboard shortcuts that Stephen Harbage asked for, unfortunately these aren't possible due to Flash's security restrictions)

Other than that (and the horrible radio popups), I love the new site and the new social features. An "unlike/never show me this programme again" button would be really handy. And it would be nice to have slightly quicker routes to live radio/live TV, and to have, for example, radio comedy and TV comedy more closely linked together, but I can certainly live with it as it is.

Quickly, a feature request, would it be possible to tell iPlayer to download a program on your main computer when your not actually on your main computer.

So often I find myself browsing iPlayer on my laptop and I might see something and think "I'll download that and watch it later", but i'm not at the computer I want to download it from, and by the time I am, i've forgotten it. So it would be great to click a "download later" button and for it too download that program to iPlayer desktop along with the "series link" programmes.

On the subject of features I feel there is probably an audience (when the all singing and dancing bells and whistles version is finished) for an iPlayer Classic or iPlayer lite to cater for the still large percentage of the UK population that are less than comfortable with and has no need for something that does more than just work.

Please could the new iPlayer include all the same program information as the old/current iPlayer. It is really useful information. For example, the following information is currently missing:
If it was a repeat ie '(R)', first broadcast on, broadcast on (channel would be helpful too).
I noticed this when trying to report an issue with a program and couldn't find the transmission date on the new iPlayer. Compare these two below to see what I mean:

/iplayer/episode/b00sj9sq/b00sj9rp/Doctor_Who_Series_5_The_Hungry_Earth/

I tried to request this using the site feedback page:

But because it only allows 350 characters this is clearly impossible. Please could the character limit be increased?

Really glad to see a new version of the iPlayer!

Whenever I pause something, I get the 'this content doesn't seem to be working' message. A real faf.

#21 @Daniel Hardy

Yeah, the way our system works, you'll only see recommendations coming through from your friends AFTER you've connected with them - if you're not seeing much, it may be because your friends haven't recommended anything yet. Let us know though if you still don't see anything after some time...

Si (Product Manager, 大象传媒 Social)

Any answers to my point #1 about Desktop live (and the possibility of putting the redbutton feeds on there too)?

Sorry if someone else has already mentioned this. While I'm liking the new interface, which is on the whole slick and intuitive, I've one small issue to mention. I listen to Radio thru iPlayer, in the previous version I had the choice to run a program in a pop-up or in main screen (with all it's program info), but now the radio programs auto-open in pop-up. This is fine BUT my niggle is that in this format I don't get any program info, particularly when it's available until. I know this is a relatively small thing but it's driving me nuts having to go to the program's website to find out when it becomes unavailable!

The most annoying thing about both the old and the beta iPlayer site is that I have to expand the program details to see the 'available until' date I have only a limited time available and want to organise my viewing so as not to miss stuff I am interested in. Being able to see the 'available until' date without having to click, 'more programme information' would be great. Even better would be to see it in the roll over information for a program.

@ Cherls #34
Re your comments on Radio Console Display in pop-up
You may be interested in some of the comments on the iPlayer message board including this thread

James
as head of iPlayer you must have responsibility for the iPlayer messageboard.

Any chance of sorting out some of the problems and bugs on the message board that I have complained about.

It is particularly annoying that the global 350 Character limit is applied to technical enquiries and complaints regarding iPlayer. That must make it dificult to solve the hard to track down Radio iPlayer problems. And makes it impossible for users to send in LogFiles as preveously requested in 大象传媒 faqs.

(Those faqs have disappeared so users with such problems on iPlayer Beta now are unable to have bbc assistance with that. I did not check today but I imagine broken links still exist on the iPlayer help & faqs.)

Hate: Radio popups, please let me get rid of them
Want: Android app
Need: Space to pause doesn't seem to work very well, have a look at youtube, works very well there.

Thanks

Really annoyed that the 大象传媒 appears to have forced the removal of Dave Johnston's BeebPlayer from the Android market before providing a viable alternative.

I assume you will be providing a non-Flash based alternative for TV licence payers who were previously viewing content they have paid for using BeebPlayer on non-Flash capable phones that aren't going to be updated to Android 2.x (e.g G1, HTC Magic, etc)

Please please please can we have an iPlayer app for Android phones? I bought my Samsung Galaxy before xmas with android 1.5 and Samsung have announced they will not be updating the OS on this device.

A flash based app is no app and cuts out a very sizeable amount of license fee payers like myself. I'm sure you could use beebPlayer as a basis for a viable app at a significant saving to the public.

In short, sort it out beeb and stop pandering only to the media by just providing iPhone content. iHate it.

So when 'Fruit' phones do not support flash, the 大象传媒 provides streaming.
Yet there is no streaming for 'robo' phones?

Hello 大象传媒 we're waiting... where is your fair and consistant service now?

CONTENT AVAILABILITY changes
Note there is a current 大象传媒 Trust consultation as mentioned on the IPlayer messageboard

The new site keeps dropping some of mys favourites ie. it forgets some.. it's a great feature bu not usable if not reliable.

The favourite feature is not working at all. I cannot add or remove!

Same here regarding favourites. The feature doesn't work for me at all. I tried it using Firefox and Google Chrome.

I live in the UK but travel overseas regularly for business. I therefore tend to download programmes onto iPlayer when I am home so that I can watch them when I am away on business.

Until recently (when I have switched to the new Beta version of iPlayer), this worked perfectly. However, now when I try to watch a programme when I am overseas, I am told "There is a problem" and the programme is instantly deleted. Note - I was connected to the internet when this happened, so I guess that iPlayer assumed that I am an overseas resident. However, in the old version, this was not a problem.

Is there a fix for this, because without it, iPlayer loses much of its raison d'etre for me? Thanks for any help.

After quite a few tries and experimenting, I really hate the beta. (I agree strongly with the comments in Guv-nor's #14 and csx's #24 above, much of which is what I was trying to say in response to the introductory beta post.

And why is it that a visit to the beta iPlayer page will prevent subsequent access to the current (non-beta) iPlayer page unless all cookies are cleared?

Russ

There should be an option to view TV and Radio together as there is currently.

For example if I wanted to view all satire programmes available, both TV and Radio, I would have to look under TV and Then Radio separately (try doing this). An annoyance as currently I can go through Categories to Comedy then Satire.

I can understand how this might not bother most users, but an option at the bottom of the page to view them together would not be too difficult to implement.

On the 'new' and 'expiring' lists, I find what is presented contains items I have already listened to. Is this intentional? Does one have to listen right through to the end of the full timeslot allocated in the console for the programme for the system to recognise one has listened to the programme?

Russ

I don't know if this has been raised by anyone yet (I'm finding it hard to google the problem): I'm watching using the variable bit rate streaming mode and every time my connection speeds back up again from a slow period the programme rewinds itself to where it first jumped down in quality.

This is VERY annoying. Especially when it happens several times during a show. I appreciate the variable bit rate functionality for maintaining the viewing, but this bug should be a top priority for fixing. It's got to be a fairly simply error, surely?

On the radio console, I've been getting some very strange listings appearing under 'favourites'. These listings often change each time I click on the favourites heading. The content of these listings seems arbitary, and unconnected to my actual favourites.

Russ

I am a regular user of iPlayer to access radio (not being allowed to watch TV as I live in Hong Kong), particularly drama on 4 and 7. Having just converted to the Beta version my problem is that I cannot see the complete title so a sample search produces:

The No.1 Ladies' Detective Agency 鈥�
: 1. The Chief Justice of Beauty
Precious worries about her fiance, and Mma Makutsi takes on a case for the Chief Justice of Beauty. Stars Claire Benedict.

The No.1 Ladies' Detective Agency 鈥�
: 1. The Daddy
Based in Botswana, owner and founder Precious Ramotswe takes on her first case - and a new secretary. Stars Clare Benedict.

Using the above example which is (1) of series one and which is (1) of series two? I can click go to website, but then if I have to do this all the time why use iPlayer?

Also why the pop-up?

I honest don't think they care about our opinions.

They'll count all the people who say nothing as favourable feedback, pat themselves on the back and tell themselves they have done a good job.

The only reason I created a 大象传媒 account is so I could voice my abject disappointment at the farcical UI you have created. Just a hint, to improve a UI, you remove steps, not add them.

I'm really impressed by the new beta and love the new account feature that allows me to keep my iPlayer content consistent across sessions/different devices by starring and recommending shows However, I was really disappointed to see the big screen player had been chosen for the iPad; opening the current iPlayer beta (at beta.bbc.co.uk/iplayer) on the iPad feels like a much better fit - its easy to navigate, allows you to browse all content and allows you to see shows that you've starred on a computer or stuff recommended by friends, it isn't in the slight bit clumsy or difficult to use on the touch screen interface and just feels right. Of course it isn't possible to view the flash video, but why can't the big screen streams be used within the iPlayer interface when an iPad or iPhone is detected for instance?

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