大象传媒

Agreed that most islanders playing for New Zealand have stronger connections with the country than some of England's foreign players have with England, but what's more relevant is that English rugby has no policy to recruit foreign players to its national team. The appearance of foreigners in England's team derives from the fact that England appears to outsiders to be an attractive country in which to live and work as a professional sportsman. It could be viewed as a restraint of trade to exclude qualified players from the England team purely on the basis of their "true" nationality. I believe that New Zealand rugby authorities, on the other hand, had (and perhaps still have) a policy which handed Super 12/14 contracts to uncapped islanders only if they committed their international careers to New Zealand.

"And hopefully opt for the latter"... Not quite sure you meant that!
Personally I think it's disgraceful that the big nations never go to Samoa / Tonga / Fiji to play tests. That combined with the occasions when they've refused to release players so the islands nations can compete at full strength is a massive contributory factor to maintaining 2 tiers of international rugby.

I think #2 has beaten me to the pedantic punch. Come on Dirsy, you can do better than that.

Still, good article.

Yes a good article as it preempts the howls of rage from certain quarters by emphatically asserting that accusations of poaching are plain wrong.

Like the other posters above, I do believe you have confused your formers with your latters though...

"And as such, the hope is future players will weigh-up a lengthy international career against the possibility of one or two All Black caps - and hopefully opt for the latter. "

The former, surely?

Nice article though! Good to get them a bit of exposure and you're absolutely right that teams should get over there. A tour to Samoa, Fiji, Tonga?

But of course, with the time difference and other economic factors it wouldn't pay enough so probably never happen :(

In my view only players who are English by birth or parentage should play for England. If they have English parents but have grown up abroad - such as Simon Shaw - or have been born and raised in England, then they should have the right to play for England if they are good enough. They should deserve to strive to represent their country and have that accolade as the high point of their playing career.

I just don鈥檛 see the sense in having players like Fourie, Hape, Flutey and Hartley playing for England. They are not English! As much as I would like Hartley in the England team if he has been born and raised in NZ what is the point? It鈥檚 simply stopping English players getting international experience and if it was me and I had trained and worked hard, put in the hours in the gym and on the playing field, taken the knocks and put my body on the line 鈥� only to snubbed in favour of a 鈥渂etter鈥� player who qualifies through residency 鈥� I think I would feel pretty let down by my country.

It becomes even more nonsensical when you have players like Flutey representing the Lions where national identity - i.e. being a member of one of the 4 home nations - is even more pronounced.

To me the lunacy of this policy was summed up a few weeks ago when Hape lined up against his former Kiwi league team mate Sonny Bill-Williams. You have to question the principles of national pride and identity if these players are simply switching alliance to improve their chances of securing international rugby.

It becomes even more of a joke when these resident players turn out to be massive flops! Someone like Vainakolo who did nothing in an England jersey. By playing him we stopped someone like Matt Banahan getting good international experience.

"We'd love to see the 'tier one' nations come to Samoa, especially New Zealand."

Maybe the next time that the Lions visit NZ a "one off" test should be arranged in Samoa. A nice warm up game for the Lions and good exposure for Samoa!

#6 - While your pride in your Englishness is laudable (to an Englishman at least), the lunacy is in your own reasoning. There is no English national "policy" to recruit foreign players (see my post #1). The qualifying conditions for playing for England are set by the IRB. You could run into legal challenges if you exclude properly qualified players because you've unilaterally decided to enforce different (and possibly poorly-defined) qualifying conditions. Presumably 50 or 100 years ago you would have objected to players from the neighbouring rival town playing for your home town sports team because they couldn't possibly have the requisite pride. The rugby world changed when it went (honestly) professional - I suggest you catch up.

One another matter, the main problem with the larger nations playing in, say, Apia is the financial aspect. Samoa is incredibly remote - 3000 km from Auckland even - and its main stadium, Apia Park, holds only 15,000. It boasts a few sheds as stands. Take a look at it on an Earth observation site. I doubt that a visit there would make any financial sense. The money is better spent on developing Samoan rugby through other initiatives - as the IRB is doing.

TGWD

Re your first post, I also think that it is a shame when islander players make 1 or 2 appearances for the AB's and I wll include Oz as well (Yes I am one) and are then barred from playing for Nations like Samoa. The fact is that most of these players, whilst paying great homage to their ancestry, are born and/or brought up in NZ/OZ and very much feel an allegiance to these countries.

I for one think that we kind of should go back to the days when players could play for 2 nations. Now before anyone jumps down my throught I will premise this by saying that players would not be able to go from countries outside the 6 Nations/4 Nations into one of these teams. But I feel that if Islanders were able to go from playing 1 or 2 tests for NZ/OZ then back to the island Nations it would only be good for these countries. I do realise that it may be unfair to some of the guys who pledge their allegiance in the first place but I think the pros would outweigh the cons.

Secondly,

So Apia park only holds 15,0000? If teams like Australia can play mid-week games against clubs in the UK I don't think it is too much to ask for teams to go to the Island nations to play an International!!!

Good, interesting article

Great White Duck - You're kind of right but I'd add a stipulation. The NZRU does not have a policy of forcing islanders to commit to NZ to win Super Rugby contracts. What they have is a policy of selecting NZ players for NZ teams, to ensure teams don't get filled up with foreign players which means fewer locals get the chance to develop and become internationals (which many feel has become the case in England). The quandry this creates for dual-qualified islanders, that they need to choose to be NZ eligible to meet this criteria, is an unfortunate consequence of this policy, it is not the point of the policy itself.

Of the 22 Samoan squad for Saturday's match 13 were born in NZ and a further 4 grew up there or were schooled there:

Paul Williams Born Auckland, NZ
Tasesa Lavea Born Taihape NZ
Kahn Fotuali Born in Hawke鈥檚 Bay NZ
Filipo Levi Born Huntly NZ
Kane Thompson Born Wellington NZ
Census Johnson Born Auckland NZ
Jamie Helleur Born Auckland NZ
Ti'i Paulo Born Auckland NZ
Gavin Williams Born Auckland NZ
Anthony Perenise Born Nelson NZ
Joe Tekori Born Auckland NZ
Sakaria Taulafo Born Nelson NZ
Junior Poluleuligaga Born Auckland NZ
George Pisi Born Samoa, Came to NZ as a child
S Mapasua Born Samoa but came to NZ when he was 4 years old
Mahonri Schwalger Born in Samoa. Came to NZ as a child
George Stowers Born Samoa, came to NZ to go to school

The links between NZ and Samoa are strong and the continual errant nonsense in the UK press that NZ has pillaged the Pacific insults both New Zealand and Pacific rugby in general.

I must also congratulate Ben. In all the years I have read British journalistic comment on players of Pacific Island lineage in the ABs, this is the FIRST that has introduced any balance. A breakthough? Perhaps not but at last some light after all the years of slanderous nonsense written by the likes of Stephen Jones. Mark Souster, Kitson, Gallagher. i coul go on....

Oh and as an aside Frnak Bunce was not Samoan by of European and Nuie Island descent. Moreover, Michael Jones's (who was born and raised in Auckland) father was actually a New Zealander of European descent.

northandsouth, your "stipulation" is pure sophistry!

fallingTP: I'd be pleased to read examples of this "continual errant nonsense in the UK press that NZ has pillaged the Pacific". Perhaps you could point me to a few such articles?

Well shall we start with Paul Rees in the Guardian yesterday who wrote:

"New Zealand have, over the years, plundered the South Seas islands for players, but they have never been bothered about reparation:"

Or Eddie Butler a year or two back who wrote:

"And to our Kiwi readers who claim that other countries poach as vigorously as the All Blacks, how can it be that Sitiveni Sivivatu and Sione Lauaki can one year play for the combined Pacific Islands against New Zealand, and the next be playing for the ABs? That鈥檚 not missionary work but piracy.鈥�

Or Stephen Jones a couple of years back:

"the All Blacks continue to steal the best talent from Fiji, Samoa and Tonga" and "are now an amalgam of four nations".

Or Brendan Gallagher

"So the All Blacks continue to cynically and systematically loot the Pacific Islands of their best players. It's an old and depressing story and nobody in New Zealand has been able to give a convincing defence of their actions."


British newspaper editors continue to provide the likes of Eddie Butler, Rees, Kitson etc extensive leeway to promote distortions that smear New Zealand for 鈥減illaging,鈥� 鈥減lundering,鈥� 鈥渞aping,鈥� 鈥渟tealing,鈥� poaching,鈥� and 鈥減iracy鈥� in select native-born New Zealanders and naturalized New Zealanders to represent their homeland.

This is a contemptible distortion of the truth

@fallingTP - The island poaching is up there with the Haka bashing. I for one don't bother reading anything written by the people you've mentioned....it annoys me too much. Every single friend of mine is the same....unbalanced, inflammatory slander.

Great White Duck, you clearly know a bit about NZ rugby, you'd do well to take articles written by these journalists - Stephen Jones in particular - with a great big pinch of salt...they'd be better suited to the back pages of any British tabloid paper than the supposedly reputable papers they currently appear in.

I shouldn't like Samoa, the colour of their shirts sends shivers down my spine and reminds me of the first trip I ever made to Cardiff Arms Park in 1991 when I (11 years old) went expecting a Wales win and left devastated.

But I love them, I love that they have a population of a big town in the UK yet produce countless rugby talents, I love that they play with such a refreshing, honest yet hard as nails approach, I even love that they never seem to moan despite being hamstrung by various factors (European clubs not releasing players e.t.c.)

Jim Telfer said there were honest players and the rest... samoans always seem to be in the honest camp.

...also on a side note, I'm proud of the fact that Wales have been to play in Samoa twice. Admittedly both within the amateur era but hopefully we'll return there one day soon. (not before the RWC, can't afford the injuries.)

There have been 4 All Blacks who were born in the Islands who did not go to school in New Zealand (3 arrived in NZ before the game was professional). They are:

Alema Iremia 1994 - 2000 (30 tests) (came to NZ to go to University in Wellington)
John Schuster 1987 - 89 (13 tests) (came to Wellignton as an immigrant for work puposes; not rugby).
Jo Vidiri 1998 (2 Tests)
Saimone Taumoepeau 2004 (3 Tests)

There are a further 4 that came to NZ on School Scholarships. They are:
Casey Laulala (2004-06 2 Tests) scholarship to Wesley (1 Test)
Sivivatu (2005 - 43 Tests) scholarship to Wesley
Sisone Anasi (2005 1 Tetst) scholarship to St Pauls, Hamilton
Chris Masoe (2005-07 20 Tests) scholarship to Wanganui College

Of the approximately 1200 All Blacks only 30 have been born in the Islands (all but the 8 above arriving in NZ pre puberty) going back as far as 1927 and including

Walter Batty 1928/31. Born Samoa Grew up in NZ and went to Auckland Grammar

Frank Solomon AB 1931/32 Born American Samao. Brother of David below. Came to NZ as a 12 year old and attended Seddon Memorial College, Auckland

David Solomon 1935/36 Born Fiji. Came to NZ as child and attended Mt Albert Grammar, Auckland

Arthur Jennings (1967 0 Tests). Born Fiji Grew up in Auckland and attended Northcote College in the city

Ron Williams (1988/89 0 Test) Born Fiji Grew up in NZ and went to Westlake Boys, Auckland

Bernie Fraser (1979/84 23 Test) Born Fiji Grew up in NZ and went to St Paul鈥檚 College in Auckland

Olo Brown (1990/98 56 Tests) Born Samoa Came to NZ as child (when he was 3 I think) and went to Mt Albert Grammar, Auckland from 1981-85

Oh Great White the old mantra was also repeated (or similar) on Scrum V two days ago by Sean Davies who said:

"The technical demands of the 15-a-side game continued to be a struggle, though, their plight not helped by a drain of some of their best players to Australia and New Zealand. "

Arguably Sivivatu but this statement is largely without substance, particularly in the case of Oz. In fact both Oz and NZ have provided a number of players to current Fijian squads or to previous squads. In terms of players lost I assume he is referring to the likes of Lote Tiqiri (who came on Oz when he was two years old) or The Rocket who came to NZ when he was 4 years old.

Ok, point taken, I have clearly touched a nerve, but you have convinced me. (BTW I don't read newspapers anymore!). So, until and unless I hear Fijian and Samoan views to the contrary, I will defend your position, with one reservation: if the links are so close, then the New Zealand rugby authority should feel secure enough to end its policy of requiring uncapped islanders wanting Super 14 contracts to commit to New Zealand.

In 2009 Dennis O'Brien, a 50-year-old mobile phone magnate, told The Daily Telegraph newspaper in London this week that he was using his influence to help Samoa retain its players.

"I hate bullies, and New Zealand bullies the islands," Ireland's third-richest man was quoted as saying in an interview in which he said the All Blacks "pinch" players off Samoa.

Although O'Brien was a sponsor of Samoan rugby the Smaona rugby union wanted no part of his conspriacy
New Zealand has also rejected claims levelled by Irish mobile phone magnate Denis O'Brien, whose company Digicel is one of the sponsors of Samoan rugby. I quote

"The Samoa Rugby Union does not accept the description by Mr O'Brien of its relationship with the NZ Rugby Union as one where it is being bullied," chief executive Peter Schuster said.

Schuster said Samoa has benefited from its players based in New Zealand as well as from technical assistance provided by the New Zealand Union.

The Pacific Island nation is looking to New Zealand and Australia for a technical advisor, and recently recruited a new trainer from the New Zealand Super 14 franchise the Chiefs.
"Samoan rugby cherishes its long-standing relationship with New Zealand," Schuster said.
"Many of our families have benefited through New Zealand's education and sporting system. It's a place where we have not just sporting ties, it's a place of strong cultural and family identity."

Sorry I should have edited it a bit more carefully. Try this:

In 2009 Dennis O'Brien, a 50-year-old Irish mobile phone magnate, told The Daily Telegraph newspaper in London that he was using his influence to help Samoa retain its players.

"I hate bullies, and New Zealand bullies the islands," O'Brien was quoted as saying in an interview in which he said the All Blacks "pinch" players off Samoa.

Although O'Brien was a sponsor of Samoan rugby, the Samoan rugby union wanted no part of his conspiracy theory. I quote

"The Samoa Rugby Union does not accept the description by Mr O'Brien of its relationship with the NZ Rugby Union as one where it is being bullied," chief executive Peter Schuster said.

Schuster said Samoa has benefited from its players based in New Zealand as well as from technical assistance provided by the New Zealand Union.

The Pacific Island nation is looking to New Zealand and Australia for a technical advisor, and recently recruited a new trainer from the New Zealand Super 14 franchise the Chiefs.

"Samoan rugby cherishes its long-standing relationship with New Zealand," Schuster said. "Many of our families have benefited through New Zealand's education and sporting system. It's a place where we have not just sporting ties, it's a place of strong cultural and family identity."

Well the kiwi I sit nexct to in work told me that NZ has scouts in all the Pacific islands watching kids aged 8 - 14 playing rugby. If they're any good they're offered a scholarship to NZ, often with their families.

He has no reason to lie. If this is true, then it undermines all of the kiwi comments above, desperately trying to argue to the contrary.

In fact, the detailed arguments against this suggest to me that this topic is a little too close for comfort...methinks the kiwi doth protest too much!

" Well the kiwi I sit nexct to in work told me that NZ has scouts in all the Pacific islands watching kids aged 8 - 14 playing rugby. If they're any good they're offered a scholarship to NZ, often with their families."

Absolutely so funny I'm falling out of my seat. Oh the conspiracy. Good Lord can't you see how stupid your postingf is? He may not be lieing but he has no idea what he is talkign about.

Sure some schools offer rugby scholarships (as they do in the UK) to guys in their final year at school. That's it. It has nothing to do with the NZRFU. As such there is one guy in the Samoan and one guy in the Fijian side today/ tomorrow who went to school in NZ on a scholarship. Scholarships whether they be sporting or educational are part of NZ's wider Pacific responsibilites.

Oh please tell me how on earth do you identify an 8 year old? How on earth can a school afford to bring a family to live in NZ (they a charitable institutions).? How on earth do the families get visas? Where are all these scouts? Clearly the 200,000 people of Samoan lineage in NZ have all been scouted. ERRANT NONSENSE.

Primary schools offering rugby Scholarships? I've heard it all!

Ben - you're mistaken on why NZ don't play in Samoa. NZRFU almost always gives Samoa the option of playing in Apia against the All Blacks, but due to the limited size of the ground (I think their stadium capacity is something like 12,000) gate sales revenue would be low. Samoa therefore choose to play in NZ, where they are given gate sales.

Calm down. You are right. The economic and cultural links between the islands and New Zealand go far beyond rugby.

... although some might say that New Zealand culture doesn't extend beyond rugby. Of course it does: there's cricket and hangis too.

TGWD,

I suggest before posting again you actually get on a plane and visit both NZ and more importantly the PI.

If you are lucky enough you might be able to avoid the hotels and stay with some families on the islands. (Bring an appetite by the way!!!) If you are a rugby man who has 1 islander tell them your plan to go to the islands and I guarantee they will not let you stay in a hotel.

Best experience of my life and if you want to understand what family and respect mean try it!

To the Great White Idiot and others...

There is no more tedious annual certainty than that the tour of Britain will bring out the "New Zealand are poachers" and reignite Haka-gate.

For the love of the game, just get over it. It's total ignorant rubbish. All of it. Now shut up because I'm sick to death of your idiotic whining on about something that none of you have the faintest idea about.

I see we've got a lot of deep knowledge about Samoa and its rugby links to other SH sides on the board today. Fascinating stuff.

So - can anyone enlighten me as to the difference between the old Western Samoa and the new Samoa?

I seem to remember that there used to be Western Samoa and US Samoa. Does that mean they amalgamated to form the new Samoa?

Sorry to be the ignorant Pom on this.

Greyghost talk about an overreaction!!!

Prob know more about the Haka and YES NZ's do take it way to seriously. It is a PRIVILEGE that you are afforded by other nations to perform before games. The way that nation chooses react to it is totally up to them! The fact is, it is a challenge and call to battle made in the way of the Maori. In case you have not noticed the world is not populated by kiwi's and as such if you choose to challenge someone in your way you should accept the fact that they can react in their own way.

Once again the Welsh scrum is manipulating the referee. The Welsh tight head loves to drop his shoulder to collapse attacking scrums to try to get penalties / penalty tries. On multiple occasions against Australia the Welsh were awarded penalties after collapsing scrums and the making it appear the weaker Australia scrum was at fault. The same has happened against Fiji. Referees need to wake up to this tactic.

@The Holy Hooker

Western Samoa was originally named German Samoa at in the early 1900's to differentiate between German owned Samoa and American (Eastern) Samoa owned by the U.S.

At the beginning of WW1, NZ Army landed in German Samoa to claim the land for the Commonwealth and rename it as Western Samoa to differentiate from American Samoa.

Western Samoa became its own nation in its own right in 1962, the first independent country in the South Pacific.

In July 1997, The People of Western Samoa voted to drop Western and just be known as The Independent State of Samoa or Samoa for short, American Samoa oppposed the change as it in their eyes diminishes their Samoan heritage even though they are a territory of a foreign power whereas Samoa is not.

Hope this helps.

SOURCE: I am Samoan

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