大象传媒

Good blog.

It certainly makes a change from the doom and gloom that's been flying around in the past week.

Agreed not so much doom and gloom but the issue is where do they go as a football club if they are saved? Another football administration story Jim in a landscape that some clubs will just inevitably either got to the wall or go through adminsitration cycles or just stay small and live with it. There are just too many professional clubs in this small country Jim and if some of them go then so be it.

I know people in Dundee won't like or share this view as fans are passionate about their clubs but really the place is just too small to house these two clubs. Either as a minimum ground sharing or a merger could benefit the both of them financially.

If Melville intends to stay committed to Dundee and investing in Dundee until the end of the season (at least) where is the logic in allowing the club to go into administration? Part of the financial problem appears to be moving away from the plan of "living within our means" when Melville came on board and Harkins and Griffiths among others were signed.

Maybe Melville feels that other Dundee fans and businessmen should be contibting more, but maybe they are unsure of investing if the money goes on more high earners and they fail to deliver. With the current state of Scottish football you can understand such concern.

Hopefully Melville (and others?) will pay the tax bill and we can get back to the previous business model. With a much larger home support than the rest of the league, no bank interest (or overdraft) and a rent free ground we should be in a better financial position.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

A balanced blog Jim, and for financial reasons many of us across the street wanted Dundee back in the SPL. My main concern is how many times should any business be allowed to go into administration? Dee4Life did a fantastic job of raising funds and fan expectation levels, but now the club has once more been financially mismanaged and Dundee supporters (2 of my sons support the club) are left presumably holding nothing but the bath water.

This guy may have had the big bucks, but there is other Directors involved at Dens, what were they doing? In the commercial business world the banks or HMRC would be hounding you and then putting your business to the sword. I don't see a football club being any different when it has had a chance at redemption and once more found wanting.

I feel sorry for the support who have continuously dug deep, and for what?

Good read Jim, very much agree on most of it.

Whilst I have your attention however, why can't we post comments on Chic Young's yet again dire blog e.g this week declaring his undying love for Barry Ferguson? How come he appears to be the only 大象传媒 football correspondent with a blog that you can't add comments to? Is it to do with all the negative comments he appeared to be receiving?

Apologies on hijacking your page however it needs to be addressed!

I am not really a lover or supporter of Scottish football, but this is a good blog.

I do not know, or pretend to know, the full history of how an why the club keeps finding itself in this position, but it appears that there is a certain amount of financial mismanagement - why did the club stray from a business model which was keeeping them out of trouble?

I think that the final paragraph of #3 seems to sum it up, while #2 maybe has a point as well ..... are there simply not too many clubs in Scotland for them all to be viable?

As a United fan, I would be keen to see DFC survive in the hope that at some future point there will once again be competitive derbies.
However, there has to come a time when clubs are called to account for their financial mismanagement. DFC escaped in 2003 and managed to write off 拢23 million pounds of debt, much of it owed to local businesses who could ill afford the loss. Here we are again, with an unpaid tax bill going back 19 months. I run a business and pay PAYE/NI contributions quarterly. If I'm 2 weeks late, I get reminders threatening fines etc if I do not keep to the schedules. Surely DFC have also had these reminders, so they must have actively ignored them. HMRC on the other hand should have acted far sooner to prevent the debt becoming large enough to become an issue. Football clubs have to take responsibility, in the same way as all other businesses, to ensure that tax liabilities are met in a timely fashion, and must face the consequences if they fail to do so.
I have every sympathy for the long-suffering fans, but absolutely none for those in charge, and I beleieve it's time for the SFL to step in and implement a rule regarding the payment of tax liabilities. It's one thing to be put out of business for spending beyond your means, but to cheat the public purse is totally unacceptable. This has an effect on people who have no connection with the club. Whilst I'm sure DFC are not the only club with tax debts, I can have little sympathy if HMRC decides to pull the plug. Given their previous history, who could trust DFC to adhere to the rules if given a THIRD chance?

It's certainly beginning to look a lot better for Dundee this morning than it did 2 days ago, however there still must remain worries over the long term future of this club.

Its a vicious circle as I am sure they could be sustainable if they made it to the SPL, however in SFL1 playing as a full time team they make losses and have been propped up by directors loans and loans from out with the club for years. Their accounts to the 31st July 2009 show vast sums due to HMRC in 2008 and 2009 so this has not just blown up over night.

What Dundee need is a stadium that earns revenue 7 days a week not just 20 days a year. I had thought when Melville talked about the club becoming self sustaining he would move the team to a new facilities which would not only improve the match day experience (the 2 end stands are good but the rest of the place is a bit out of date) but generate the extra revenue the team needs. How do you think a team like St Johnstone can survive in SPL with lower gates than Dundee.

Now with Melville being so erratic, one minute hes walking away, next hes staying, one minute hes "not physically or mentally able to attend a court case" the next he was "busy" its beginning to look like you cannot take the man for his word. That's a shame for the Dundee fans who work so hard to save their club along with the director who managed to get the Bank of Scotland to write off nearly 7 million pounds of debt via a business deal had worked hard to get the club to the position they were in 2 years ago, from the mess of November 2003.

I have no doubt Dundee FC will survive and should avoid administration however there will have to be a realignment of ambition for the next few years otherwise the same questions will be getting asked in 24 months time. A club with no assets, that does not own its own stadium and cannot get a bank overdraft is not in a strong position however I am sure the fans will get more enjoyment out of this if they can turn it around themselves without having to rely on some outsiders who always in the end walk away and leave a big mess behind.

As a St Mirren fan I hope, like everyone else, that Dundee can pay their debts and avoid administration and continue as a strong 1st division club. Hopefully this will be ANOTHER wake up call to the games administrators that we need some kind of action from the SFA / SFL /SPL over how clubs are allowed to run themselves.

Surely we need to look at wage caps and a rule about the amount of debt clubs are allowed to carry in relation to their income.

Dundee have recently outbid SPL clubs for transfer fees and wages on some of their signings last year. It now seems like they are unable to afford the money they have paid out on those or to afford the pay out they should be due to Jocky Scott. It is not that long since Gretna went to the wall or Livi nearly did the same, then we have Rangers, Hearts and Killie in the SPL all currently carrying huge amounts of debt for their comparative size... meanwhile a club like St Mirren get pilloried for their lack of ambition when they move to reduce their wage bill and live within their means with a young up and coming manager bringing through young players from the lower leagues and developing our own youth system. Killie appear to be surviving due to their previous chairman agreeing to write off more of the club's debt to him each year. Surely it is time to introduce a rule where clubs have to bring down the level of debt to a sensible level over the next 5 years so they are all living within their means?

I know that you will be sympathetic Jim even though they are your rivals and you perhaps think that Dundee needs two clubs but really the questions you ask about the financial management at this club are not nearly critical enough.

Very proud club steeped in history and as a couple of posters above point out they could have hardly failed to see this coming. Sadly fans can't always be expected to step in to save their club and this all feels like deja vu. And although financial woes (and administration) seem to be art and part of modern football these days I can't help asking myself is this club really worth saving again? How many times can one club get itself into a financial mess and expect a bail-out or leniency from their creditors? They have been on this road so recently before that it begs the question, what exactly were the directors of this club doing that got them in this position again and so soon? Madness and utter irresponsibility built on the folly of expectation and ambition. Plenty of SFL clubs aspire to the SPL, plenty have improved their grounds, facilities and squads and plenty have sensible business models that may or may not get them there at some point. Apart from the issue of people losing their jobs which no one likes to see in any situation, why should we have any sympathy for Dundee FC Jim?

My point in #10 about outbidding SPL clubs in transfer fees and wages was to flag up the issue of clubs gaining an unfair advantage over rivals by running up debts they ten can't afford to repay. Dundee are the current prime example in 1st division, and when you look at the SPL Rangers and Hearts are the most obvious current examples, while Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all seem saddled with huge debt from previous spending regimes and their debts are at a level where it is hard to see them being able to repay the debt any time soon. So my question to Jim is, is it really OK for the Scottish leagues to allow clubs to continue buying players and outbidding other clubs for their services when teh clubs can only just afford to service the interest on their debts and should clubs be forced to be reducing their debts annually so that in 5 or 10 years time most of the SPL and 1st division clubs are debt free or close to it or have an overdraft which is more in line with their income?

What has happened to Dundee in the last thirty years for this to situation to have arisen ? Does relegation from the Premier Division automatically spell financial disaster because of the decrease in revenues from television money ? Would clubs that suffer a dip in fortune not benefit from lowering ticket prices so that the stadium was at least half-full, rather than practically empty ? These are simplistic views, granted, but surely getting supporters back to watch games live, in the flesh, has to be every club's priority, even if it does incur extra costs for security, policing, etc.

#8 - Vic, you're spot on.

I'm an Arab so I always watch the shenanigans at Dens with mild amusement, but there's nothing amusing about what's going on over there. A financial benefactor who is (supposedly) worth over 拢100 million, has backed the club (supposedly) to the tune of 拢1m+, and now can't find 拢350k and is asking the already hard-up supporters and economically-stretched business community to bail them out when that's (supposedly) what he's there to do? It stinks of something dodgy, and shows the dangers of any club at any level depending on a sugar-daddy (remember what happened to St.Joseph's juniors?).

As for the rest of Dundee's board, what's going on there? What happened to the promises of shrewd financial stewrdship after the holocaust of 2003? People's livelihoods are at stake, and they're blaming HMRC when they should be looking at themselves.

Finally, I hope the SFL are watching and take a consistent course of action. If DFC do end up in administration again, robbing creditors of monies which are rightly due to them, they should be relegated to Div 3 just like Gretna and Livingston were. I don't want Dundee there, I want them in the SPL for the good of the city, but the League needs to make sure they treat everyone the same. NO exceptions.

Sorry to say this Jim, but Dundee as a club deserve a kicking over this. It is not as if it is the first time. Paisley_saint_doug at # 10 & 12 and some other contributors pretty much sum it up.

Why should Dundee be allowed to bid for players and offer wages that other comparable clubs can only dream of ? Where were the 'due diligence' checks etc. on this character Melville and the current board ? Are local creditors to get royally shafted for the second time in ten years ?

It is not good enough. My own club has a manager whose coat is on a shooglly peg because the board will not spend above their means and a minority of idiot fans are calling for heads to roll. Have they forgotten the 'Hands off Hibs' campaign ? The club nearly folded. Never again.

Clubs must be run in a competent manner. If Dundee cannot meet their responsibilities then they should be in trouble. Simply to accept the word of some Walter Mitty character about supposed millions is bizarre.

Melville may have rolled up in his Bentley. The average fan rolls up by bus or Shanks' pony spending their hard-earned to see THEIR club, not Melville's, or any other fantasist. There must be a root and branch examination of Scottish football finance. This type of carry-on has to stop.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I studied a module in pensions at uni and we learned that if a pension scheme goes into deficit there are laws stating that the deficit must be reduced yearly over a period of 10 years. It amazes me that no such rules exist in football to stop clubs running up huge debts. Stricter regulations from the SFA/SPL/SFL are definately needed.

I can sympathise with the fans as it is not their fault that the club has been mismanaged. However, I fail to see why Dundee should be given a third chance. What's to say this won't happen again in a few years?

Jim hasn't got his sums right

"Do the sums. The First Division club owes HMRC 拢365,000.

If you or I had ten grand in the bank, it would be like shelling out 拢350."

Actually it would be like one of us shelling out only 拢35 if we had 拢10k in the bank not 拢350...makes the small amount that Callum M would have to pay even more stark...

Not sure why my previous comment was moderated so I'll say again that Dundee FC have a history of owners with dubious credentials: one of the most prominent of whom was Giovanni de Stephano. And it is public knowledge that this guy was a business associate of the Serbian Paramilitary leader 'Arkan'..and has twice been charged with Fraud.

And now we have Mr Melville recruited on the basis of a newspaper advert and who can't seem to get the tax sorted out.

Whatever the outcome here Jim this is a club set on a downward spiral for the next decade as they downsize their wages and ambitions..and it will be exactly what their directors deserve.

Jim,

Can you please clarify what you meant by:

鈥淗e has spent around 拢1.3m pounds signing big names and paying big wages.鈥�

鈥淏ut did they do enough to ensure that the money was actually deposited in the bank or that written guarantees were in place to ensure that promises made could or would be kept.鈥�
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Are you saying the tax bill is connection with high earning player鈥檚 wages or is it down to some other problem?

Are written guarantees an actual requirement to hold Melville accountable as a director? If this was down to spending money they didn鈥檛 have then the rest of the board are surely culpable as well.

Don鈥檛 want to get into the debate about figures but I think the Dundee fans have dome more than enough.

I wonder what percentage of their disposable income your average fan spends on his club. A higher percentage than the directors I would think.

A good blog this but I am afraid this highlights the fact that we have far too many small clubs in this country. I am a Rangers fan and love going to Dundee for either a trip to Dens or Tannadice but, and this will probably be very sore for some readers, Dundee and United would be better as one team. A "United" Dundee team with a top stadium and combined resources would challenge the old firm more and bring the standard of football up in this country. Until we merge all the small clubs together and streamline our leagues possibly putting in place a pyramid system bringing in the juniors and non-leagues i.e south of scotland, highland league etc I am afraid we are going to see more of these situations arising. Incoming!!

And lo and behold, wages haven't been paid this week.

Time for Melville to put up or shut up by the looks of things. I can't see any way out of this hole for Dundee now - EVERY time a club has had trouble paying wages it's either folded or entered administration - Airdrie (the original one), Falkirk, Livingston, Portsmouth, the list goes on.

The board at Dens MUST give a full and transparent account of what's going on there to their fans and creditors, or no-one will have enough trust in them to help them. And maybe no-one should.

#21
Agree with you completely on the Dundee merger and the 'too many clubs in Scotland' view. I said this as well and expected flak which never came my way at all!

Would be interesting to know what the 'Arabs' thought about this issue Jim!?!

Dundee is now a club without its own stadium and having to seriously cut their cloth..the future is bleak and bleaker still.

... and now Dundee can't afford to play players and staff wages on time! They are hoping to pay everyone what they are due next week instead of this week. It makes you wonder about the director who gave the press statement on Monday saying things weren't as bad as had been made out over the weekend.

# 21 I propose a merger of the Glasgow clubs which could strengthen the clubs there and end the sectarian nonsense too: anyone for Old Firm Thistle playing in yellow, green and blue diagonal striped tops?

:)

It would also end the OF domination of the SPL and decision making process! No longer could 大象传媒 run a headline on the CIS cup draw which reads... Big News: Rangers and Celtic are NOT playing each other in the next round.

Sign up here if you agree!

A merger between the OF would surely be reported to the Monopolies & Mergers Commission Jim!! The would mean every title would go to Rantic or Celtger. Its bad enough already..

And I appreciate that you cannot simply add supports and that when logic meets passion the latter usually wins. But really the OF are not the issue here, nor are Hibs/ Hearts, or any other proposition. In the context of the city of Dundee though it might make sense because you have two teams both struggling with resources with no reasonable improvement in sight: and one of them just still might go into administration again. And it might get even worse for Dundee as it might for Utd if the Thompson family lost interest.

And the beauty of history Jim is that it is never static and gets written and re-written all over again and again. Few things stay the same and new histories and clubs can emerge from older ones. Look at Inverness Caley Jim and the success they have had in the Scottish leagues. Now there's an example closer to home to prove the point that mergers are not necessarily doomed to failure.

#26
And the Saints could merge with the mighty 'ton and play in the Clyde!!

I knew it would just be a matter of time before the "merger" nonsense was mooted again.

Yes, it worked in Inverness, and fair play to them. But Spencey's right - not in Dundee. It's ridiculous to suggest Rangers and Celtic merge, ridiculous to suggest the same in Edinburgh, and just as ridiculous to suggest it in Dundee. I certainly wouldn't go to watch a merged Dundee team, because they wouldn't be MY team. The Austrian scenario with less going to see the new side is exactly what would happen in Dundee.

And anyway, why should United lose their history and identity just to bail out a club that has been poorly run and poorly supported? I'm not having a go at Dundee supporters there by the way, they have my respect and admiration, but there's just not enough of them. This "sleeping giant" guff has been well and truly put to bed over the past few years.

The city of Dundee can sustain two senior clubs no problem - perhaps it just can't sustain two SUCCESSFUL clubs. While I have sympathy for the blue quarter (you can't really say "half" anymore) of the town, the bottom line is that DFC are a shining example of mismanagement and self-delusion, and United won't be bailing them out by offering a merger.

Inverness also enjoyed huge growth as a town around the time the clubs merged to become Inverness Caley Thistle. My guess is that in cities and towns where the population is static or falling that mergers would usually result in the attendances dropping further.

Financially St Mirren have no need to merge with Morton or anyone else... (Rangers are probably closer geographically)... we're debt free, own our own new ground, and have new training facilities as well.

It is very sad that some clubs never learn, and that some directors are foolish enough to consistently spend beyond their means safe in the knowledge that a club like Dundee will never be allowed to go under because of the support of local businesses & fantastic groups like Dee4Life.
I knew very little of Calum Melville before his involvement with DFC, yet we seem to all know his face now. That seems to have been the whole idea for him, especially when we read the frankly terrifying quote Jim of,
"Melville, who once phoned me to complain that he was worth 拢130m and not the mere 拢90m that I had reported."
What a horribly arrogant man.
ALL football clubs should rid themselves of these guys & their bad attitudes, then concentrate on running their clubs within their own income.
We should be reading the praises of Stewart Gilmour at St. Mirren, Rod Petrie at Hibs, and any other Chairman who runs their club at a profit.
Prudence isn't sexy, but it's far preferable to insolvency.

Can't see a merger however sensible it appears to non Dundonians. I was a student in the city in the late seventies and watched a lot of games from both sides of Dens Road. Pretty sure that Dundee fans would rather do a Livingston - i.e. get punted to Div. 3 - than any merger. Likewise United fans would not touch a merger with a bargepole.

Man. City have just announced their figures. Their wage bill is 110% of turnover. Clearly they are bankrolled by an oil sheik but if he gets bored with his new toy that will be the end of City.

Wonder what the wages : turnover ratio is at Dens. Bet it is not pretty and they are backed by a character that increasingly looks like a chancer.

The likes of Rod Petrie should stick to his guns despite mounting hysteria from some fans. Scottish clubs must operate within their means. If not it is certain that Dundee will not be the last club staring down the barrel.

I am a Livingston fan and obv not Dundee's biggest fan but I would just like to wish all involved the best of luck. I went through this last year and I know how the fans are feeling and I really hope we see you next season. best of luck to you all.

I tend to think that one-city or one/Town teams, like Aberdeen, ICT, St J and St M at least have more potential to get fans in without competition from very near neighbours. Rivalry helps but surely not much in Dundee these days when both clubs struggle for punters. And two grounds right beside each other? Quaint but completely mad! Dens Park I'm assuming is owned by a separate holding company and presumably this is maintained by rental payments from the club(?). If they ever become 'homeless' then they really are finished. Don't know much about DUtd finances I must admit but I believe that the input from their owner may be decreasing.

And really where mergers possibly offer the best chance of success its based on a shared agreement between the respective clubs and fan groups. I'm realistic enough to appreciate that it won't happen in the Scottish leagues anytime soon.

And you are right BaldyHibby Petrie should stick to his guns: a criticised but safe business model is better than a busted flush whatever the expectations of frustrated fans.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your reply. I'd just like to come back at you on some of your points as I think you may be looking at this idea through tangerine tinted specs!

Admira Wacker did merge with VFB Modling after financial problems but they re-located 14 km south of Vienna which would probably account for the attendance discrepancy. This would hardly be the case with the Dundee clubs. I am in no way belittling either clubs rich history but in todays world things are changing, the champions league is hardly the champions league is it? A combination of resources, stadium and training facilities backed with a decent city of supporters who could get behind the new team would make a decent impact in the spl and who knows maybe even beyond in Europe. The future could be the new clubs rich history one day!!

Why don't all us diddy team supporters just jump on the glory hunters bandwagon and support the Old Firm like Markyboy44 (comment 21).

We could have a two team league and leave all the other clubs to play to empty stadia until they die and leave only the glorious Old Firm teams standing tall. We can call it the Freakshow Circus League.

Markyboy, you're a Rangers fan, so you'll probably find that most fans of smaller teams roll their eyes when you start giving us your vision for Scottish football.

Why don't Celtic and Rangers merge? Then the newly formed Celtic Rangers FC might actually be regarded as a big team on the euro scene, rather than a euro diddy team. They could sell off both their grounds to Tesco and build a 200,000 seater out on the edge of Glasgow; or maybe nearer Stirling, so it's a bit more central for all their glory hunters.

#34 in the case of St Mirren being a one town team doesn't offer any hope of having the potential to grow a bigger fanbase without competition from other nearby teams. Ibrox and Parkead are 5 and 10 miles away from our ground.

PS if any reporters from 大象传媒 Scotland are reading this, St Mirren have signed a player today and you haven't reported it yet. Patrick Cregg has signed until the January window.

An interesting and heartfelt rant from Jimbo... but-my-oh my his use of apostrophes is like watching Scotland construct a coherent and fluent midfield formation with Bazza as the inspirational patriot.

#36
He suggested it might make economic sense for two teams to merge. I did the same and no one was being rude or disrespectful about it at all.

Rangers and Celtic merge? Fine and that would kill most of the remaining competition in Scotland completely..Dundee and Utd merge? Potentially a bigger challenger and there is none around.

#37
Every club has to compete with them but they aren't all season ticket holders. I support Celtic but watch the Juniors mostly.

David,

Thanks for your comment:

I never once called any teams "diddy" or otherwise. I may be a Rangers fan but wish we could go back to the 60s,70s and 80s when I grew up watching football when Dundee United, Aberdeen and a host of others were challenging and winning titles etc. Unfortunately those days are gone and Scotland as a whole has to have a good look at itself and change our league system. For goodness sake our co-efficient in Europe is lower than it has ever been and our national team has not been at a major tournament for over 10 years. What do you suppose we do- stand still and hope that it gets better. I don't have "a vision"- I am only making a suggestion and certainly don't want a "freakshow circus league". You may roll your eyes at "us" but are you surprised when we roll our eyes at you for not at least considering change?

M

As a general rule, mergers won't solve the problems in the Scottish game. You would be looking at the 2 clubs having to sell both grounds and build a new one rather than have a 'senior partner' in the new club who stayed at their old ground. We would see yet more millions of 拢s clubs don't have getting spent on building more all seated stadia. Would Hibs really want to knock down their new stand and the rest of Easter Road to join up with Hearts and relocate to a new stadium somewhere in Edinburgh or the surrounding area? And how big should the new stadia be for the new teams in Dundee, Edinburgh etc if we don't know what size of following they will attract. You would also have to sort out which mangers, backroom staff, players, board members were being kept from the 2 clubs and which were being released or sacked... and in the case of the Dundee clubs you'd be combining their debts and hoping that by selling off 2 grounds and building 1 new one you'd clear most of your debt. Would the Thomson family still underwrite a new Dundee team once there is no longer a historic family tie to Dundee United? If there is no Thomson family backing the United end of the new Dundee team then is that not seeing both sides of the merger starting off in financial trouble? Are United debts not stuck in the region of 拢7m with the club posting a loss most years even with the Thomson family putting their own money in?

In general the teams who have gone under or almost gone under are the newer teams without much club history behind them: Gretna and Livi. Once you take away a club's history to set up a new merged club all the old ties which have kept a hardcore diehard support going at the smaller clubs gets taken away. Very few St Mirren fans go along to games expecting we'll win the league or a cup or finish top 6 or be much fun to watch... we go because of an emotional tie to the club, or out of habit, because we were brought up to go there with our dads, and our grandpas took our dads along as boys too. The current fare in the SPL is so poor that if you remove fans ties with their clubs and merge teams against the will of the fans then you will remove one of the last ties sending fans of small provincial teams to games!

#39 my comments on St Mirren competing with the OF for fans was a reply to your comment: "I tend to think that one-city or one/Town teams, like Aberdeen, ICT, St J and St M at least have more potential to get fans in without competition from very near neighbours". Given Paisley's proximity to Glasgow, New St Mirren Park is almost as close to Ibrox as Parkhead is. Being a one town team doesn't ensure you have the chance to grow a big local support if your town is on the outskirts of Glasgow in the way that Paisley, Motherwell and Hamilton all are.

The problem all the provincial clubs now face in Scotland is that as soon as they begin building a more successful side the OF and Championship teams can come in and offer much better wages to their better players. Provincial teams don't get the chance to become successful any more in the way they could in the 80's when Aberdeen, Dundee United, St Mirren, Hearts were able to hold on to their better players and build a team up that could win the Premier League title or finish 2nd or 3rd and compete well in Europe and bring through players good enough to play for the Scotland squad at a time that was something worth being part of! Success breeds success and equals a stronger local support when provincial teams consistently do well for a decent number of years. The SPL rule changes in Scotland ended the top league as a competition. The top 2 places are a formality as are most of the European places and relegation contenders and the league almost always reflects the spending power of the clubs from 1st to 12th.

#s 39 and 40,

You make perfectly reasonable and cogent points. Of course from the outside looking in a Dundee merger makes sense for the greater good of the game. Take this further and consider the Kingdom of Fife. Dunfermilne, Raith, Cowdenbeath East Fife etc. Merge them into Fifeshire and you have a huge fanbase. Add in Ayrshire, Angus, Stirlingshire etc.

The snag is that you underestimate the tribal and anachronistic nature of Scottish football which, given that you are OF fans, is somewhat surprising - and I am not criticising you in any way.

Fans of provisional clubs feel exactly the same passion and devotion to their clubs as you do to yours. The only difference is that there are fewer of us. Suggest to Ayr Utd. fans that a merger with Kilmarnock makes eminent economic sense and you will be met with the same outrage that fans in Dundee have expressed on this blog.

I have no answer to this central fact. In an ideal world Scotland would have far fewer senior clubs with far larger catchment areas. For the greater good of the Scottish game this may be desirable but it will never happen. We are what we are.

Baldyhibby,

I am glad you see our points and i can assure you that i am not underestimating the tribal nature of Scottish football. I am not surprised that there is outrage from Dundee/Utd fans and that there would be similar reactions from dunfermline/ayr/killie etc if this was to happen at those clubs. There was the same reaction from Inverness Caledonian and Inverness Thistle fans when their merger was announced. Unfortunately this scenario may need top be considered or teams like Dundee etc will just go to the wall. It is interesting to note that despite all the tribal antics that happen between the old firm teams you have a Rangers fan and a Celtic fan actually agreeing and backing each other up on this comment board- who knows maybe the reaction from Dundee / united wouldn't be as bad as we all think. Until then I hope to see Rangers visit Dens again and that they can get out of this unfortunate plight that they are in,

M

I never understand why everyone's first instinct is to get two clubs to merge. Why?

You should support your team because they are just that - YOUR team. Not because they are top of the table, or doing well in the cups. They are your team DESPITE being rotten in the league and worse in the cups!

If we took this to an extreme & merged ALL the sides in Scotland to end up with just 4 regional teams, one will still finish bottom - then what? Merge with the 3rd bottom team? Nonsense!

Support your team (whoever that may be), support a prudent Chairman & let's enjoy football for the next hundred years!

blogcritic,

We are not suggesting merging all the clubs together to end up with 4 teams . You cannot deny that we have too many teams in this country for the size of it and that, in this day and age, some of these clubs will not survive financially. I also agree with you that you don't support your team because they are top of the league or are winning cups but because they are your team. I grew up watching Rangers in the early 80s and my first cup final was in 83 and aberdeen beat us 1-0 aet. I was in tears after it and told my dad that i would never see rangers in another cup final again- that was a different era and we now have 2 giant teams competing for the spl title and most of the cups- every so often we get a dundee united or a hearts winning either of the cups. Wouldn't you like to see one of those challenging for the SPL title- I know i would. Things will just stay the same if we don't come up with something. Even if no mergers happen, Scottish football has to change before it is too late,

M

#41

You are right that mergers won't solve all the problems of the Scottish game (the list is too long!) but in specific instances they may solve a couple for some clubs if their owners and fans go down that road. I just think that as with ICT (a breath of fresh air!) new things are not necessarily doomed to failure: people would still go along to watch the likes of Goodwillie and Conway to name but two players.

Didn;t realise that DUtd'd debt was 拢7m. That is shocking. The City of Dundee for me now resembles a road crash in football terms.

And its not just the newer teams who struggle: Partick, Clyde to name but two. Rangers and Hearts as well.

#42

Actually my feeling was that Scottish players for the OF were more likely to be priced out of the market these days with the bigger dosh of the EPL and Championship. Rangers offer around 拢1m for Goodwillie and Conway and Utd quite rightly think they can get more.

And not all OF fans watch the OF of a Saturday/Sunday. Clubs have to find ways of trying to get fans in.

#43

Its not that I underestimate the tribal nature of SFootball I just tend to be an optimist about the factionalism and try and ignore it. And your ideal world would be mine too.

#45
Actually my first instinct was that this was a club in trouble again and that problems of finance may be dealt better with bigger economies of scale in the case of the Dundee clubs. I wouldn't think the same of Hibs/Hearts (after all who could manage the latter's 拢30m debt!).

We have too many layers in Scotland, none of them joined up enough, supporting too many teams.

"You cannot deny that we have too many teams in this country for the size of it and that, in this day and age, some of these clubs will not survive financially."


Depends on your motivation. To me, more clubs = more diversity & competition. As long as Chairmen don't recklessly overspend, there's enough to go around.

Dundee aren't in this situation because of too many clubs in Dundee - it's because the men who write the cheques are hopelessly irresponsible. If you can't afford 拢165,000 for Leigh Griffiths, don't spend it - pick up Andy Kirk on a free, for example. If you can't afford 拢100,000 for Gary Harkins, don't spend it - pick up Ryan Stevenston for 拢30,000. Multiply that by every decision & you're still at the top of the table, but your tax bill has been paid.

If every team in Scotland were to live within it's means (like Hibs etc.) & agreed to run the national leagues for the good of all clubs as well as the national game, then the number of teams should be immaterial. But, that is far from the case.

Allow more teams in the top league & cascade proceeds evenly, which will generally improve standards across the board - not just for the chosen. Have one elected body running the national game, therefore cutting down on red tape & the the number of new blazers required annually for the SFA Committee photoshoot.

Concentrate on making the product more exciting & competitive, therefore bringing more people to the gate/screen & the sponsors etc. will come after that. If they dont, we've got a more exciting game to watch by ourselves.

Overspending or relying on a sugar daddy gets you nowhere. There is NO example of it working in the long term.

Another football club in financial crisis and yet more fans left feeling powerless. Welcome to the realities of the free market.

Saturday is a big day for Dundee FC and the club needs its supporters to turn up. An attendance of between 6 to 8 thousand will show the directors the support care, any less then they are going to have to work hard to get the team through the next month. Every day the situation at Dens seems to get worse and at least on Saturday the fans can concentrate on football for 90 minutes.

I wonder if Mr Melville will be making the trip down from Aberdeen or will he be "Physically and Mentally unable to be there" (For those not too close to Dundee the reason given in Court by the Dundee FC lawyer for the non appearance of Melville at a tribunal for the manager the board sacked last March while top of the league)