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If you believe God saves the whole world there's no point to hell.

If there is a hell, i thnk it's empty.

God saves everyone. Simple as that.

I don't believe in an afterlife. No heaven OR hell. This is the only life we get, and how we live it determines whether other people experience heaven or hell at our hands.

Well, you're going to frustrate a few people by raising the question about hell, but I've believed for about the past 6 years theologically that hell is an erroneous idea born of incorrect interpretations of the bible. It doesn't exist or it's a spiritual state that nobody will occupy. Either way, it's just not a sensible theology.

glad u raised this, cos ive never understood why anyone would link god to the hell business. that turns god into a nasty abuser. when i was a kid i was told that the worst murderer would escape hell if he prayed a prayer of repentence in his last seconds on the gallows. Yet a little old lady who spent her whole life doing good and was loved by everyone would go to hell because she'd the wrong religion! Now what's that about? That's no way to think about god.

I was also told to repent myself or god would send me to hell. I was 10 years old. Isn't that child abuse? Looking back I can't believe my parents allowed me to hear that stuff, but they were part of that world. SO i Had nightmares and began to think god was like some monster out to kill children and little old ladies. It's all crazy.

Amazingly, I am a christian today. Not the kind of christian those evangelists wanted me to be tho. Im a christian because I love a God who loves me and everyone else more than anyone can measure. Without reservations.

John wrote
It (Hell)doesn't exist or it's a spiritual state that nobody will occupy.

Would you like to look at that sentence again John? (Spirit and body )

I know it's a bit silly to apply logic to theology - but here goes
If heaven exists and only the select few are allowed in....
and if you're excluded then you must be in hell...
So one relies on the other and if there is no hell then there is also no heaven.
QED
alan

I think it all boils down to money. It seems to me that the Catholic Church is going through some financially hard times right now. Fewer contributions, unknown liability of lawsuits from sexual abuse of children by Priests in America, periodic financial scandals in Italy, and who knows what else. Recently they had to close down purgatory, I presume it was just too expensive to own and operate. Had they only considered outsourcing it, they might have managed to salvage something. They should have gotten in a management consultancy firm and arranged for some creative refinancing. Hell is another matter altogether. Without hell, what are the wages of sin? Why bother going to confession? What happens when there are only carrots and no sticks. How will the wicked be punished by god? Isn't Church attendence down enough as it is? That's one reason there's so little on the collection plate, too many people don't take the need for salvation seriously anymore. I can see with the cost of fossil fuel being what it is and all operating those old centuries old burners it can get costly, maybe they can go nuclear. Once the gates of hell are closed, I'm afraid they will be shut for all eternity. If they do go belly up, could the Church recoup some of its losses with a fire sale? And what about satan, that poor devil will be out of work permanently. What unemployment office does he report to?

I dont pretend the idea of hell is easy. Its hell.

But I look at the life of Christ. Why did he put himself through such torment on that cross if there was no hell to save us from?

Why did he warn again and again and again about hell if it didnt exist?

What about those people who simply do not want anything to do with God?

Would it be fair of God to spiritually lobotmise them and force them into his heaven, "imposing his ideas on others" as some might say?

Never had any good answers to these questions...

PB

"It's already rejected by many leading theologians".

Anyone for a subtle tautology?

I must admit, I'm having a real difficult time accepting this. For one thing, if they shut hell down, where will all of those people who are there now go to? Will they send them to heaven? There must be countless millions of them. Will they take up all of the spots there so there isn't any room for anyone else when the time comes? And what about language. When you say to someone "go to hell" or "go to the devil" it won't mean anything anymore. We'll all be stuck with dying of "niceness", the whole world will become like Canada. I'm thinking of writing to His Holiness to try to talk him out of it. If I can't, we have only one hope left. As long as there is a single Baptist preacher left alive in this world, hell will reign supreme and fire and brimstone will be the fate of evildoers, and you can take that to the bank....if you live south of the Mason Dixon line anyway.

rubberduckie: not so fast. There are leading theologians who reject the doctrine of hell. Fact. That sentence does not mean that rejection of the idea of hell is a necessary condition of being a leading theologian. Stop being paranoid!

Intro logic class anyone?

The idea of Hell is more theologically sophisticated in Dante than perhaps in some modern interpretations.
Dante's Hell is simply a place without God. It is not a place where God metes out punishment but where those who chose something other and God get what they chose in its true form. Each circle represents the mind state of a certain type of rejection of God (ie Sin). The Sinners according to Dante chose Hell rather than God sending them there. It's a interesting concept (even if I have no belief in it myself).
The Divine Comedy perhaps the greatest generally unread work of European literature. It's a lifetime's study but Dante is the most sophisticated and humane writer of theological (and political and romantic and psychological) themes in European literature. If you really want to understand Christian views of the afterlife, Dante is your man.

So if they close down hell, what will they do with the real estate? Will they build condominiums? Maybe people in heaven could go there for the winter. How about Counci Estate housing. I'm sure Heaven must have its poorer districts, maybe they could alleviate any housing shortage. I know, how about a Hell museum and themepark. They could give guided tours. "This is where Hitler's soul was kept for the last 61 years." "Here's where we kept Ghengis Khan." "And here is the newest section. Saddam Hussein's spot was right here and next to him was the spot we had reserved for George Holloway." "All abord for the River Styx boat ride, tickets please. For this segment, Captain Charon will be your tour guide. Have a nice eternity"

Alan- There are well-hashed and well understood theological positions by which it is argued that there is a 'heaven' but not a 'hell'. My neo-universalist position maintains that 'heaven' (as I define it) is not necessarily restricted to the few, as evangelicalism suggests.

Cue Billy: re. a narrow road.

David

There are also many theologians who still believe in hell.

I suppose just who you define as "leading" depends on which agenda you wish to promote.

One thing that really gets me is when people try to close down a debate about Christian theology by using the phrase "most theologians now believe..."

1) Does the person saying that really have any idea what most theologians now believe?

2) If he does, is he promoting only his favourite ones? I caught someone out doing this in the past week. He smiled and suggested he was playing "devil's advocate"...
...the liar ;-).

3) Has he a good grasp of what THE primary text actually says on the subject?

4) Does the "leading" theologian in question acutally base his ideas on the primary text or on his own extrabiblical views? Does he give rational and consistent rules for when to ignore what the primary source says and when to accept it, ie consistent rules that he will allow may cut through his own worldview on occasions? (eg I am not that comfortable with the OT laws on slavery, though more comfortable with it having been phased out in the NT, in the book of Philemon).

5) If the theologian is going to promote extra-biblical ideas about hell, can he be comfortable in labelling them as such?

6) Why do so many people feel so comfortable in defining their own personal ideas of heaven or hell and actually believing that the words they speak actually create that reality? Have these people ever tried doubling the size of their house, the value of their car or curing third world debt through such techniques?

7) What if there was no such place as eternal hell? I could premeditate a life like Adolf Hitler's or worse, lie, cheat, steal rape, pillage and murder my whole life and the worst I could expect is to cease existing....or travesty of travesties...to end up in heaven alongside my victims without the slightest bit of remorse!

That is not much of a deterrent at all and absolutely nothing in the way of justice for my victims. I cant see a just and loving God would let us away with that... and the plain reading of the bible agrees with me.

PB

The idea of hell is indeed a strange one for our modern (or should that be post-modern) ears to hear. It, as well as heaven, seem within evangelical circles to boil down to making a choice - do I choose God and therefore choose heaven, or do I reject God and therefore choose hell. If hell existed in the form that is traditionally expressed then no-one in their right mind would freely choose it, because anyone who would choose to suffer eternal conscious torment is either insane, or else doesn't understand the choice they made (and therefore cannot be held accountable for it).

To the Christian who believes in hell it is seen as God's justice. For the outsider, it seems more like God's revenge - as it is the pointless disproportionate torturing of people who were damned before they were born.

God is love. That is a central belief within Christianity. The continuance of a doctrine of hell puts that belief into question for many.

Simon

Hell is not about God's revenge, he died the most savage death in history to ensure people had a way out. He was hardly cackling on the cross.

You miss all the questions on posts posts 7 and 14 especially question 7 in post 14.

PB

PB

Question 7 in post 14 talks about hell as a deterent - as if human morality would crumble if there was no hell. For centuries the Church has used the idea of hell as a method of control, and even Origen, an out-and-out Universalist, admitted that he would preach hell to stop people sinning, though he actually believed in Universal Restoration.

It also talks about the "travesty" of being in heaven with Hitler and others who have committed henious crimes against humanity. But surely God's Justice demands that these people are included. Justice means 'making things right(eous) again'. Putting Hitler in hell would not make right his crimes.

Heaven is a place of healing - not where we heal ourselves, but where God heals us. With this in mind, why on earth would Hitler not be in heaven?!? Doesn't God want ALL people to be healed/saved?!?

i will like to study thealogy in your contry

Descriptions of near-death experiences by suicides and not very nice people have been life changing for the subjects. They have described similar experiences that are extremely unpleasant. The classic Hell is absurd, but the psychological Hell is likely as real as your current day to day life. It doesn't hurt to believe in an unpleasant afterlife following a life of hurting others, if it causes the individual to make more responsible life decisions.

And all this time I thought heaven and hell were just fables if you like to tell a story with the aim of guiding the human race in a compassionate and caring direction.