´óÏó´«Ã½

Links to the jokes? - Will?
Or is that that against the ´óÏó´«Ã½ codes?
Looks like we'll all have to google it ourselves!
IMO religious jokes are fair game with - say jokes about Lembit Opik or the Alliance Party. Why should they be treated differntly?

Why cant muslims take a joke?

Alan i reckon you're right about the ´óÏó´«Ã½ codes. They didn't show the Danish cartoons either. If anyone find the jokes, can you put the link up for the rest of us? Thanks.

Sounds like Morroco still doesn't quite get the idea of free speech... like many in the UK really: I've heard Christians in Belfast support measures to ban sex shops and to prevent the airing of 'blasphemous' programming on television. Is that really any different? My vote is for freedom, whether or not I like everything that some people use their freedom for.

But as Mark suggests, don't expect Europeans to take the protection of liberty seriously.

Mark and John, before you criticise Europe and exalt America as the home of freedom ...

remember this: In some US states adult gay men are still being arrested and imprisoned for having sex in private with other consetning adult males. That's no basis for lecturing Europe on freedom. Would you care to express ANY embarrassment that there are gay people rotting in American prisons for committing the crime of loving their partners?

John
Morroca - Europe?

A young woman teacher with obvious liberal tendencies explains to her class of small children that she is an atheist. She asks her class if they are atheists too. Not really knowing what atheism is but wanting to be like their teacher, their hands explode into the air like fleshy fireworks.

There is, however, one exception. A beautiful girl named Lucy has not gone along with the crowd. The teacher asks her why she has decided to be different.

"Because I'm not an atheist."

Then, asks the teacher, "What are you?"

"I'm a Christian."

The teacher is a little perturbed now, her face slightly red. She asks Lucy why she is a Christian.

"Well, I was brought up knowing and loving Jesus. My mom is a Christian, and my dad is a Christian, so I am a Christian."

The teacher is now angry. "That's no reason," she says loudly.

"What if your mom was a moron, and your dad was a moron. What would you be then?"

She paused, and smiled. "Then," says Lucy, "I'd be an atheist."

Alan: John's living in America, so don't expect him to know anything about the map of the world.

Now here's the link guys:

All I can say about this joke is that whoever told it SHOULD be sent to prison. Not because it's offensive. But because it's SO bad!

Alan Watson #8

That joke would be illegal...in Salt Lake City, Utah. :>)

Gay Christian Believer #6
Could you cite some references. Please make them clear ones where there were no other crimes they were accused of which for which they may have been convicted and imprisoned.

A woman went to the Post Office to buy stamps for her Christmas Cards. "What denomination?" asked the clerk.

"Oh, good heavens! Have we come to this?" said the woman. "Well, give me 30 Catholic, 10 Baptist ones, 20 Lutheran, and 40 Presbyterian."

America the role model for liberty don't make me laugh.

American’s know all about liberty, phony liberty, those subjected to false imprisonment at Guantanamo Bay are living proof of this false American liberty, these detainees are the perfect picture of this pseudo-American liberty, detainees held under false imprisonment and without charge, and with little hope of obtaining a fair trial. Liberty USA style, five years on and America are still holding detainees without legitimate evidence of any wrong doing, these detainees are the subject of physical and mental torture because they were resident in a country that America consider hostile to the interests of the USA or that their nationality wasn’t to the liking of the American government, human rights USA style.

America has no intention of honouring its obligation to international law and to end the unlawful imprisonment of the detainees of Guantanamo bay, these detainees have never been afforded access to a proper tribunal to hear their case; all those held in Guantanamo are unlawfully detained under international law.

America is guilty of Secret detention, including enforced disappearance, secret detainee transfers using false information to illegally refuel their aircraft, also known as rendition indefinite detention without charge or trial torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, by so doing America is guilty of violating international human rights law, America’s "war on terror" has amounted to an exercise in injustice which is nothing to be proud about.

The time has come to close Guantanamo Bay: shut down the detention camp, charge the detainees under US law in US courts or release them.

Alan- Where did I claim that Morocco is in Europe?

Knuckles- Keep your cheap, bigoted, ignorant insults to yourself if you want to be taken seriously.

Alan- Where did I claim that Morocco is in Europe? The reference to Europe referred to Mark's post #1 and Will's suggestion that Europe adopt an American-style 'First Amendment.'

Knuckles- I'd advise you to keep your cheap, bigoted, ignorant insults to yourself if you want to be taken seriously.

Anonymous (aka Billy, Christian Socialist, Christian Hippy)- At my first glance at the length of your post, I thought you were going to provide numerous significant examples of America's failure to protect liberty. Instead you go off on an incoherent rant about Guantanamo, which is a dubious, and very recent example.

Gay Christian Believer- If what you say is true, it's a bigger travesty of justice and a greater violation of freedom than the original topic of this post. But it's not representative of the vast majority of the nation, it's certainly not representative of the state where I've chosen to live, and is at the same time, ironically, the product of a system which in fact honours freedom itself: the American system of government, which provides that individual states are free to make their own laws with regard to this sort of thing as voted by their citizens. Does that make it right? No; as I say, it's a travesty if it's true.

But I find it intriguing that you people are so quick to attack America on FREEDOM, which is a nation than which, as far as this libertarian is concerned, no greater exists.

Mark: on America's human rights abuses against gay people:

(1) An excellent book:

(2) 20 US states still have laws against homosexuality. But a 2003 Supreme court decision ruled them unconstitutional.

(3) For US and Human Rights see:

14
Mark
Apologies - I misread Will's intro
and Knuckles is probably referring to our sterotype of very few Americans having passports.

John,

while not wishing to appear like an Anti-American lynch mob, I think it serves us all well to recognise our faults.

We in the UK are by no means the paragon we'd like to be - but I think you overstate the US record, current and past, on freedom of speech and equality of citizenship. Gay Chris.... raises some good examples of the US' shortcomings in his links, which additionally omit the MacCarthy era. Here in the UK these rights have been similarly abused even more recently in N. Ireland (universal suffrage was a long time coming, and detention without trial commonplace). So don't think we don't know our faults over here - but there are a few splinters in everyones' eys - are there not?

These journalists have been sadly let down by the Morroccan govt - I would dearly love to know what it is about the Muslim nations that makes them so Po-faced about their religion. A faith that can accept criticism and non-believers is surely stronger for it???

The root of this particular problem? Religion.

Gay Christian Believer #16,6

In reply to my comment about Europe's attitude towards freedom of speech, you said that "In some US states, adult gay men are still being arrested for having sex in private with other consenting adult males." (what does that have to do with free speech or is it just an excuse for gratuitous America bashing?) I asked you for some specific examples and you referred me to a summary of a book. That summary made no specific references to your claim (I certainly don't intend to buy or read the book so that you can make your point.) and a discussion in Wikipedia of the history of human rights in the US which also made no specific references to your claim. If you have a specific example you could reference it.

Attitudes towards homosexuality in the US changed slowly in my lifetime but the cumulative effect has been rather profound. It changed from being regarded as abberant and deviant behavior, to a psychiatric disorder, to a normal variant in human sexuality which now has a biochemical basis for understanding. I'm sure religion had much to do with keeping the pace of change even faster and degree of change greater.

Yesterday, the 1 hour PBS program Front Line coincidently ran a film about Catholic Priests sexually abusing children, predominantly boys. It traced the experince of one now fully grown man in particular in the Boston area. Approximately 10,000 American children are believed to have been sexually abused by Catholic priests in recent years and the Church not only knew about it but protected the priests by moving them from church to church and parish to parish. At least some are now in prison for their crimes, is that what you are referring to? It would hardly surprise me if other religions had comparable skeletons in their closets. Pedophelia is now considered in the American culture to be one of the most heinous of all crimes because it preys on helpless children in a way which often traumatizes them for their entire lives.

Alan Watson; knuckles references to Americans and maps is probably a reference to a study done some years ago which showed that American primary and secondary education was so lacking in geography that many American children could not even find their own country on a map of the world. Before you get too excited, I recall another recent study which said European children in some countries including the UK fared little better. If relatively few Americans have passports, it's because until recently, they were able to travel freely as tourists practically anywhere in the Western hemisphere with just a birth cirtificate and a drivers license. Travel to countries requiring passports is expensive and they are far away. Until a few years ago US passports were only valid for five years, now it's ten. I don't know the current cost but it used to be $40. What's the point in paying for one unless you need to use it?

Would this first amendment in EU allow the public reading of passages about homosexuality from jewish, muslim and christian sacred texts in public discourse without fear of prosecution for harrassment, as i understand is a real threat under the SORs?

Mark, ref biochemical basis, even will mentioned recently that the evidence on this was still not convincing. And ref psychology, as I understand it APA was the battering ram to change public opinion on this but this was done by pressure tactics without and within NOT on the basis of new scientific evidence.

Ref American... Guantanamo is an ugly stain on its character but it still has a character. Politically speaking it is a beacon of freedom to the world, even to a fault. What other country do refugees want into so badly? That was the whole point of America.

Lets get some perspective; there is a vast difference between the "free" west and authoritarian regimes which, for example, censor the internet.

And the apparently criminal actions of some of those countries in Iraq etc do not change this central fact.

PB

Mark,

America bashing isn't what it's about and I think this thread has moved to a point where we are discussing human rights and freedom of speech. I think its fair to say a country is made "great" by it's citizens discussing how it can be made "greater" still. Implicit in this is the idea that not everything is perfect. Surely we can all agree on that?

Im sure the US is a "great" place to live, I think the UK is too - but crikey, the list of things I'd like to change is as long as my arm - let's not pretend otherwise.
If Gay Chris... is correct in saying some Us States still prohibit gay couples to be intimate I'd say the point on Human Rights was De Facto.

also Mark

ref biochemical origins, despite the fact that nobody is near reaching any firm conclusions about this, as far as I understand...

I have studied this ref schizophrenia a little and I understand in these matters there is some disgreement as to whether the chemical differences are the cause or effect of the problem.

ie correlation does not prove causation...

PB

PS see

GW- Thanks for the balanced posting.. I agree, of course, that there have been infringements of liberty even in America where the idea of liberty was the reason the nation was founded.

But I'm sick of hearing European liberals disparaging America out of ignorance and out of a lost sense of perspective, where the real reason is conflicting ideology. Sure, the States has problems: many of them. But the reasons for which America is hated around the world are usually bad reasons, and I don't hear those same people turning their pitchforks toward some nations and some ideas that really do deserve it. They hate America on grounds that I consider invalid, usually. Their criticism comes from ideology that I believe to be seriously flawed. And so there are sometimes more philosophical reasons for my reaction against anti-Americanism... in this case of course they are right to point out that Americans have breached liberty too. But name a nation that has done better in regard of liberty? It seems a tad comical to vilify the nation that has best guarded individual rights to freedom on grounds that it has violated individual rights to freedom! Why not focus on the worst?

My contention is that the people who do this (like Billy posting above, for example) are doing it for reasons of political ideology. Billy is a socialist. No wonder he hates America!

I'll add here also that the reason most Americans I've talked to haven't gotten passports before is because they would like to see most of their own country before travelling anywhere else! Let's not forget that in America's 50 states, there is a melting pot of hundreds of subcultures, there are many different climates, timezones, and there is a huge number of places that people would like to see. For many Americans, they simply have never had any need to go to a foreign country. But you'll notice that, of those that do, they're extremely interested and very respectful of the places they visit. (I hosted more than 15 Americans in Ireland in 2001, and they loved the experience and couldn't stop talking about how great they feel the culture is over there.)

Gee Dubyah #21
Of course America Bashing was what Anonymous' posting concerning GITMO was about. It's all people who hate America have left to do short of joining terrorist cells. As I posted in my thread about Baroness Kennedy, armchair lawyers who are suddenly experts on international law apply their limited knowledge and the laws they are interested in very selectively to fit their own political agendas. The people held in GITMO were largely captured in battle fighting the US but not in any recognized military uniform. They are not protected by ANY provisions of the Geneva convention and are not required to face trial or be released. In all likelihood, most won't be released ever because they are far too dangerous. Of the few that were, some have already gone back to fighting with the Taleban. The US was authorized to invade Iraq in 2003 by the same UN resolution which authorized the 1991 military action, Iraq having repeatedly violated the provisions of the cease fire which ended hostilities, almost immediatly and incessantly. The big mistake the US led coalition made was when the first time the UN inspectors were refused access to a building, it should have been bombed flat with a warning to Iraq that the next refusal would result in an immediate resumption of military action.

In a wider sense, the Axis of Weasel, France and Germany along with Russia and China killed off whatever was left of international law. The Taleban was a violation of international law, so was Al Qaeda, so was Saddam Hussein's Iraq. International law and the UN exist to guarantee security without armed conflict except as a last resort. The governments of the US and Britain were convinced that their security was threatened by Iraq and so were most of the other major intelligence agencies around the world. The dodgy dossier was hardly the only evidence that Iraq had WMDs, George Tennet told President Bush it was a slam dunk, probably because he know how much nerve gas the CIA had shipped to Iraq during the Iran Iraq war and how much the UN had found and destroyed. No one less than Vladimir Putin told Russia that Iraq was planning to attack the US on American soil. It's all in the news accounts on the internet. Why did the US delay the war for 6 months in hopes of getting another UN resolution (Iraq had already violated 17 of them)? To try to cover Tony Blair's political derriere in Britain. Some poodle. Why did the members of the Security Council refuse? Because some of their most influential citizens were making personal fortunes from kickbacks by illegally circumventing the UN sanctions. International law and the UN are as good as gone. (As they say in the Big Apple...fageddaboudit.) What next? Possible nuclear war against Iran. Best case scenario, a massive conventional American air strike which does not ignite the oil fields. Worst case scenario, a massive Israeli nuclear strike which does. In that case....in all likelihood we will all die as a result of it.

Mark,

finished ranting yet?

I didn't bring up US foreign policy, you did.

Your muscle flexing nuke em till they glow attitude does you or your nation no credit.

You feel that strongly about it - go join the marines...

We are discussing human rights and freedom of speech - and in that light your defence of Guantanamo Bay is disningenuous - a word I normally save for PB.

Now look, no-one is saying the US is the worst - it's nowhere near it.
You need to know that here in the UK and especially amongst those of us from N Ireland, we are very wary of flag waving - it fills graves...

Gee Dubyah;
As I said, there is little America bashers have left to them but bashing. We really don't pay any attention to it from Europe anymore. Americans have largely written Europe off. I'm quite pleased that the high security military prison is at GITMO. It could have been just as secure in central Alaska but periodic rendition flights would have been less convenient. I wonder if our soldiers there have use of a beach. I also like the fact that putting it there sticks Castro's nose in it. I think if you are going to be accused of something bad perpetually anyway, eventually it pays to be guilty of it at least once in a while. Kind of like being called a sinner, if you are in for the pain, you might as well be in for the gain, donchyah think?

GW- A quote from an interview with Simon Cowell is memorable: "We Brits are very uncomfortable with the idea of expressing pride in our country, and maybe that's because we have less to be proud of in recent years. But in coming to America I've realised that we have it wrong. Americans have it right."

I agree entirely.

It seems rather odd to discuss an amendment to a constitution which has been rejected by the voters. Some Europeans seem to think that the EU constitution should be put to a vote again and again until it is accepted. Another proposal is to enact it as EU legislation piecemeal so as to avoid proposing it as a single document to the voters at all. Either way, these would be methods to circumvent the will of the people. Is this what Europeans call democracy? It's what I call dictatorship.

Most Americans have written Europe off have they? Did you just make that remark up or is there some substance behind it?

And why spend so long discussing a part of the world you have written off? Surely it cant be worth the effort.

In the eyes of our Irish-American libertarian blogger who bares the weight of the American libertarian system upon his wee shoulders, how does he view the libertarian socialist Noam Chomsky for his radical views which are ultra critical of American foreign policy, and for his pro trade union stance? Would you rate him in the same way that you vilified those European bloggers that are critical of American violations of human rights?
I suppose his assessment of American foreign policy isn’t valid and has no significance and because he has made a stand against Washingtons policy he lives under death threats, Would this be the America freedom of speech model that he so aggressively defends.

Gee Dubyah, how would I know? Believe it or not, we have media and we do talk to each other. It's not what you would call English, at least not the Queen's English but it does work surprisingly well for us. We somehow manage :>)

Why am I here discussing all this with part of the world I have written off? An excellent question, even if an inadvertant one. Believe it or not, I regard this kind of exchange as someone might communicating with people on another planet. It's fascinating to me to try to understand how other people think and view the world when their perspective is so very different from mine. Do forgive me if I sometimes get caught up in the arguments too much, sometimes it hard to remember not to become so frustrated to the point of becoming insulting. That can happen both ways you know. Just think of me as Gulliver. The real question is, am I visiting Lilliput or Brobdingnag? Am I looking through a telescope...or a microscope?