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So what? At age 57 I am pleased to see that young people can apply scientific logic to kill off superstitious mumbo-jumbo. I was brought up as a Catholic just because my Mum said so. She was Catholic because a Catholic family adopted her - any other religion and she would have followed that. She wanted my son baptised, or entered into ANY religion "just get him done" indicated blind afaith in something that did not exist. At an all-male catholic grammar school run by priests and brothers, I was considered dangerous for questioning their righteousness from age 12. I gave up on church at age 13.

It's only a small poll among 1000 children, but it's still good news.

Let's hope some politicians with an eye on the future electorate pay attention. Perhaps a politician like LibDem leader Nick Clegg could simply state he doesn't believe in god without then bending over backward to say how much he respects other peoples beliefs. Just say you see the Magic Man in the sky idea as fairy tales that are bad for peoples minds and bad for society, and you might draw some of the young vote with it.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

God is dead: Nietzsche.

Nietzsche is dead: God.

Pffrt, Brians post 3 referred to the moderators. A strong opinion expressed in it yes, foul language no. Somehow I can't help suspecting one of our new Whitewellers again. It does seem that to some there must be absolute automatic respect for their beliefs, no criticism allowed.

To whoever pressed the complaint button: has it ever occurred to you that by displaying a little bigotry in censoring posts critical of christianity, you are inviting more criticism?

This is why I think that we need to seriously explore Christian Atheism (or Atheistic Christianity if you prefer). Yes, Jesus of Nazareth is as dead as Hector, and the resurrection is a myth, but we have invented these concepts of the "Christ" and of "God", and they have inspired some nice aspects of our culture, as well as some of the nastiest excesses. The stories of Jesus are not all bad - the Good Samaritan, as I have pointed out before, is a deeply Humanist and *anti-religious* tale (and it would have been seen as such by the people who heard it). Many of the stories of Jesus can be re-told and re-formatted for a secular age, without any need for god to be "real" or Jesus to be any different from you and me.

This is not an accommodationist view - I would love to see belief in god disappear; it is toxic pathology. But most of the good things that people do are not in any way related to their beliefs/"faith", but arise out of their simple humanity and their facility for empathy. Those are things we should foster and encourage, while celebrating the fact that people are more and more realising that Christianity is itself a parable - an earthly story with several layers of earthly interpretation.

We should provide churches with escape slides.

"A new survey by Penguin reveals that six out of ten 10 children (59 per cent) believe that religion "has a negative influence on the world"..."

This begs the question; what's wrong with the other 41 percent?

"God is dead: Nietzsche.

Nietzsche is dead: God."

mccamley is dead: MarcusAureliusII

The article doesn't say how many actually believe that god *exists* though. I mean, I've prayed and I've been to church, but I'm as athy as the athiest atheist in Dawkinsville.

"This begs the question; what's wrong with the other 41 percent?"

Most likely their upbringing by their religious parents, who made the children join their faith at an age when they were too young to think for themselves. It takes some thinking and some courage to ditch it, not everyone manages to get out of it.

PK, sounds like a clear cut case of child abuse to me. Has anyone brought a suit before the EU court about it? They like to meddle in everything. Seems like it should be the perfect place for a good knock down drag out fight. What a precedent that could set. Abuse of children by instilling in them xenophobia, homophobia, ethnic and racial hatreds that will scar them for life. Without that, the chruches might as well just shut their doors for business. While they're at it, they could take on Islam and other "prejudicial" religions as well. No religious or political indoctrination allowed in the EU until the age of majority. Now that would be a first.

Marcus AureliusII is dead wrong: Mc Camley

Yawn, yawn, yawn - wonderful how much all you atheists worry about God. Jesus without God is such old hat and about as relevant. Okay he told a few interesting stories, but he also said "eat my flesh and drink my blood", and "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." That's you that is.

Well I see normal service has been resumed here!

OK so.

Six out of ten 10 children (59 per cent) believe that religion "has a negative influence on the world"

Apart form the Math, how bright does one have to be to realise that in an increasingly secular world an increasing number of the next generation are... well... how shall we put it.... oh I know, secular. :-)

PK, you can do better than Magic Man, I know it, you know it; surely you can put me off Christianity better than the Christians. :-)

Brian, good to see you back, I was beginning to think you'd got saved or something. What the blank (you can't add spaces to the comment box) did you say? :-)

Helio I see you need Jesus for a bedtime story. For blanks sake can you not get a better cultural hero than a madman who thought he was God and then died to prove it? Maybe you're a Jesus-a-thist. BTW who's Hector, did he die for my sins too? :-)

Marcus what do you mean what's wrong with the other 49 percent? Surely you mean we need more Summer Mission Teams? No? :-)

PK, It's our upbringing, I see, and how far do you extend this 'hands off' approach to parenting? Or State nannying for example? :-)

Marcus, Yea sure take us to court, in fact, throw us to the lions why don't you, or into Hell perhaps. Very tolerant. :-)

petermorrow

I won't throw you to the lions just yet. Before I'd do that.....I'd put them on a starvtion diet for a week.

When I see a movie about missionaries among primitive tribes trying to convert them guess who I root for.

Marcus

"When I see a movie about missionaries among primitive tribes trying to convert them guess who I root for."

Root for? Root beer perhaps.

You know, if only you'd consider living in Europe, you could reopen the Colosseum as a 'living history' attraction.

Peter, oh, I don't *need* the J-boy; you can use religion like a theme on a mobile device, or a wallpaper for your desktop.

Jesus never claimed to be god; he never claimed to be "dying for my sins" - those are made up stories, of course, and about as valid as Goldilocks and the Three Bears. But, like G3B, it can teach us little lessons about life. And as for atheist fascination with the topic, yes, it is fascinating, and important to understand why otherwise rational people believe that these fairy stories are actually *real*, rather than embellishments.

Maybe my next "theme" will be Paganism. It's pretty darn fruity too - but they don't *wash* enough.

Christiopolitan

"Jesus never claimed to be god..."

Goodness, I've obviously overestimated you; you know less about the bible than I thought you did!

Anyway, what about Batman, he'd be a good icon, nice car an' all.

Heliopolitan, are you aware that similar sentiments may have been made by Russell T. Davies? After all, while he praised Dawkins as the man who made Atheism popular, he described Jesus as a "wonderful archetype"? (Both were from interviews with Doctor Who Magazine, in different issues and times.)

As for Batman, I hope not. After all, he was responsible for millions of deaths, and nearly killed the Justice League...

Peter, I agree that the *gospels* have little pieces of dubious provenance that can be interpreted as saying that Jesus said he "was god", but that is a completely different thing from what Jesus *actually* said - we really don't know that he said this, and I would suggest that the *evidence* is that he would have said no such thing (you're familiar with the work of Geza Vermes, I take it?).

You need to be a bit more sceptical about the collection of books that we call "the bible". It is not the word of god; much less is it "true" in any rigorous sense. The fundies are right in one thing though - once this realisation dawns on you, there is not much to rescue traditional theistic Christianity. This is why they resist reality so much, and embrace fantasies like Intelligent Design Creationism.

-H

Hi Peter Morrow

sorry for butting in, but bearing in mind the energy you put into the Christianity vs fundamentalism thread with me, I suggest it might be interesting for you to add some comment on the bible code and gay genes thread at the minute.

It looks like the issues have now become very real!

many thanks
OT

H

Yes I have come across Geza Vermes, he's the one thinks Jesus was a Jew, isn't that right. ;-)

NT Wright debated him once on the Today programme, I think; NT Wright doesn't seem like a fundy, unless he's a good actor!

Tell me this, is there anything Geza Vermes says about Jesus, or the resurrection for example, that you haven't already told me?

Anyway, Batman...what about him?

Oh and yes, the gospels do tell us about Jesus thinking he was God, when did you figure that out?! :-)


Peter

Yes, Peter, and Goldilocks really did eat porridge that had been prepared by mamma-bear. Don't believe everything you read in the papers, or everything you read between Genesis & Revelation, if ye follow me. It's just a *story*, dear boy.

"and Goldilocks really did eat porridge..."

You don't say, I thought it was Shrek.

Peter, you keep forgetting - we dyed-in-the-wool atheists are not the Enemy - it's those weirdo fundies who think that giving all their money to Jim meant they were giving it to da LORD. I know you know this, but you hate to admit it - you have a lot more in common with us dudes on the Fun Side of the island. That's why Graham is keeping quiet lately too (and Bernie) - you boys are really atheists.

At least you may as well be - the fundies think you are Laodiceans.

Think of it this way - IF there is a god, she'd rather hang out with the atheists. After all, she's only human.

"Teenagers are killing god." Well they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it. Considering the attacks on Roumanians, Hindus, and homosexuals in the last week or two by god fearing Christians in NI, it appears that the Christian god at least is still very much alive and kicking.

Markie, that's maybe a bit unfair, at least wrt the attacks on Romanian & Hindu families. Is there any evidence that the thugs involved in those attacks were Christians? To be honest, I doubt it, and perhaps a better example is the response of Christ Church?

Helio

Maybe the bit you keep forgetting, or maybe the bit I haven't explained carefully enough, is that I have taken my Christianity apart, relentlessly, over many years. I've been around the broad Christian family all my life; when it comes to Christianity I've been there and got the t-shirt (quite literally actually, Christians have lots of t-shirts to sell!). And in many ways, I don't fit in church, cos I don't buy into the sub-culture anymore, haven't done for a long time. I'm not much interested in the endless meetings and programmes and conferences and music (whether they're taking place in Belfast Cathedral or the Black Box in Belfast's Cathedral Quarter) and I don't much like being told that membership of the church is predicated on the notion of participation in all this activity. So you're probably right, some would see me as a bit of a Laodicean, but nobody has given me a reason not to believe.

And you're right about something else too, giving money to 'Jim' isn't the same as giving it to 'da Lord'. And yes, I've had more meaningful conversations on here with 'Liberals' and 'Atheists'; some of the most worthwhile conversations I've ever had have been with those outside the church, but, and this is a huge but, loosing your faith in the subculture of the church and loosing your faith in God are not the same thing.

Maybe this is one of the differences between you and I. You are an atheist, I'm not, you want to retain (at least some aspects of) the christian culture, but I'm not bothered much. You are an atheist who wants to tell stories about Jesus, but if Jesus really is dead, then I'm off surfing, if he's dead, I'm not interested in his 'moral' tales, I really can get those from Batman. If he's alive then they are more than moral tales.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity could do with a whole lot less institutionalism and ritual, be it of the fundamentalist or emergent or any other variety. Christianity is far too high on subculture and far too low on substance (think justice and forgiveness instead of music and events). It's far too concerned with its programmes and not enough concerned with people. I don't think that 'going to church' is the only way of being church and I don't think that people should have to wade through all of the paraphernalia of religion to understand God.

And you're right about something else, if there is a God, then God would most certainly hang out with those outside 'church'. You and I both learned that from a funny little ancient book.

Helio;

"Is there any evidence that the thugs involved in those attacks were Christians?"

Is there any evidence that they weren't? I'm going with the Christian philosophy that they are guilty until proven innocent. It seems to me none of this would have happened if the Catholics and Protestants were still killing each other. They'd be far too busy with the main event to waste their time on these small side shows. When did you ever hear anything like this in the good old days?

Peter, the one slight fly in the ointment is the "belief in god" malarkey. You're right in that it all makes sense, and the dropping of any requirement to "believe" is that last piece of the puzzle. Then you get on to the next level, where the fun *really* starts.

-H

Helio

It never ceases to amaze me how 'evangelical' your atheism sounds.

My life has a godless shaped gap, is that it?

:-)

Peter, I just wanna share the luv :-)

The problem with a god-shaped hole is that you end up with a hole-shaped god.

"The problem with a god-shaped hole is that you end up with a hole-shaped god."

I know, it's rubbish theology, really!

But thanks for sharing, it's such a blessing! ;-)

petermorrow you are right;

"The problem with a god-shaped hole is that you end up with a hole-shaped god."

As I grow older, I have found god in Dunkin' Donuts. I pefer to see the donut and not the hole. The coffee they serve is excellent IMO. I haven't tried actually dunking their plain donuts in the coffee but if I ever lose my teeth, that may be my real salvation. Meanwhile they do sell the donut holes marketed as "munchkins." Obviously that's the devil's work. Who can find a path to truth in a donut hole?