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Pope Benedict's international policy

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William Crawley | 13:04 UK time, Sunday, 8 November 2009

hma-portrait.jpegThat was the title of this year's Thomas More Lecture, delivered by , the UK's Ambassador to the Holy See, on 5 November at in London. Topics explored in the lecture include the Pope's commitment to the dialogue between faith and reason, and his contribution to global debates about climate change, disarmament and international development.

The full text of the lecture is below the fold.


Pope Benedict's international policy
The Thomas More Lecture

Tonight I am minded of my first official visit to a seminary shortly after arriving in Rome. I was invited to the English College - the oldest English institution outside of England - and the Rector took me on a tour of the Church. He pointed to a grave on the left aisle and said, "Oh look, Ambassador: here rests one of your pre-reformation predecessors, Cardinal Bainbridge." I looked and then asked the somewhat obvious question, "'Why is he buried here?" The kind Rector replied, "Oh, he died here while on his first visit to the College." I said, "Really?" The Rector answered, "Yes he was poisoned by one of my predecessors." I hope I'm on safer territory tonight, but I am conscious that I'm giving the Thomas More Lecture and it is the 5th of November! But I think the choice of date was mine rather than Monsignor Mark's.

My thanks to Monsignor O'Toole, the staff and students of Allen Hall, for their kind invitation. My thanks also to the members of the audience who braved London's November weather to be with us.

We are now well over four years into the Papacy of Pope Benedict XVI and this evening I want to talk about the main themes that have emerged in that period. All the time, I will be doing so as someone whose professional job it is to assess and analyse the Papacy from the standpoint of a British Ambassador. It is therefore appropriate for me to focus on the public policy issues which are of importance to the UK. But much of the Pope's time is taken up with issues which pertain to the internal life of the Catholic Church. These issues do not fall within the professional remit of an ambassador or the scope of tonight's talk, but they are nonetheless important when speaking of the Papacy.

At times tonight I might surprise you with some of the issues which we focus on at the Holy See. At other stages I might disappoint as perhaps some of the hotter religious issues fall off the table of the British Ambassador as we think they are best left to the intra-religious field whether it be internal to the Catholic Church itself or the Catholic Church's relations with other Churches. Tonight, I want to do three simple things. First, to say something about the person of Pope Benedict XVI. Second, something about the structure within which he fulfils his international mission. And finally, something about four aspects of that international mission; the religious and the secular; international development; climate change and disarmament. At the end of this exposé, I hope you will have more questions than when you arrived and I hope we will have time to deal with those questions after the talk.

Now why is it important to look at the international themes of this Papacy four years in? For a start, if Ruth, Catherine, Riazat, Paul and their colleagues here tonight are right - and sometimes (though not always) they are - then we might have Pope Benedict in the UK within the year. Of course, I couldn't comment on that! But more fundamentally, in the Papacy we have one of the world's key opinion formers. It is an office that is instantly recognisable across the world and whether one is a Catholic or not, the Papacy attracts attention like few other global offices. As we know all too often that can bring both positive and negative critiques. But to illustrate that point - today in late 2009 - it is a fact that the world's largest TV audience for any event was Pope John Paul II's funeral in 2005. That same event brought together the largest gathering of world leaders.

But what is my thesis tonight? It is this. In Pope Benedict XVI we have a Pope who keeps coming back to a number of themes which are important for him. Probably the most central is the very nature between the secular and religious in the Western tradition. Other issues flow from that central theme and find tangible application, for example on climate change or disarmament. The Pope has also taken some very innovative steps in the area of international development financing and as such has placed the Holy See at the cutting edge of policy making. We will return to these issues later, but for the moment the question has to be asked why certain themes have come to the fore during the Papacy of Pope Benedict XVI. I believe that the answer rests with the very person of Benedict XVI - the era in which he was born and raised and the formative years of his childhood and youth.

Pope Benedict - like his predecessor - saw first hand how fragile society actually was. That ingrained in him - as it did with his predecessor - the need for society to have fundamental values which guard against its corruption by evil forces. He is alive to the dangers of relativism and all too aware of the risks to a moral order based on popularity. For the Pope, justice needs a stronger foundation than mere popularity. Society needs to have deep roots to be strong enough to withstand the gales which arise from time to time in our history. To get at Benedict today - at the things that are of fundamental importance for him - we have to step back to his earliest and most formative years. Those earliest - most formative years - were at a time when Germany was in the hands of the Nazi regime. Forgive me if this point is too opaque, but let me use an illustration. I want to recall something that brought this point home to me, but it relates to the life of John Paul II.

In the early to mid 90s, I had the privilege of living in Krakow as a Tempus Scholar while studying at the Jagiellonian University. On one day, I found myself tracing the roots of John Paul II in Krakow and ended up standing in front of his parents' grave in the military graveyard. It was a moment and a time when I understood more clearly how we are in so many ways a product of our time, for there around the Wojtyla family grave is the history of 20th century Europe represented in the many war dead of the World Wars, Poles, Germans, Russians and British. Later I recalled George Weigels's line about John Paul being a man who had lived through all the 'isms' of the 20th century. Even in the Wojtyla family grave one could see that history etched on his family's life. I have heard it said that a good biography is not one that tells the life of the subject, but one that can do that while at the same time telling the parallel story of the wider society. I think John Paul's life was very much like that.

But so too is Benedict's. He is alive to issues which many of us are not. Sometimes when reading his writings one finds a parallel with those writers of the post-war period like Jacques Maritain or the German philosopher Theodor Adorno who famously wrote 'There can be no poetry after Auschwitz'.(1) Their experiences of the Second World War stripped them of their complacency. They no longer took for granted what earlier generations had. And closer to home - and in this period of remembering - the war generation were defined along similar lines - conscious of the need to preserve and never to be complacent about peace. Such people, whether they be Maritain, Adorno, or Benedict are not disciples of the automatic on-ward progressive march of history, because they have seen first hand what a society - at that time the world's most educated and advanced society - could do to itself and its minorities. Maritain, Adorno and Benedict in their writings, are alive to the vulnerabilities at the very heart of our order. In the case of Benedict, that challenge to our complacency is always there in his prose and he is probably the last of that generation who is in a global leadership position who can personally attest to the horrors of what man can do to man.

So where does that leave us? It should bring us to a point where we can better understand the man who is Pope Benedict XVI and the context in which he was formed. But before we move to the illustration of the Pope's views on the nature of the polity, climate change, disarmament or international development we must first say something about the structure within which he operates - the Holy See - because it is the central platform on which he carries out his mission and international policy.

Back in 2006, following many changes at our embassy to the Holy See - I sat down to look at the Holy See afresh to re-examine what it was and how it could be better explained in 21st century foreign policy circles. I came up with the following three points.

First the Holy See is a hybrid of the global and the local. The Holy See is a global opinion former. While the Vatican, which is the headquarters of the Holy See, is exceedingly small in physical size, the Holy See is a sovereign entity with an unusually large global reach. The Catholic Church is a force on the world stage: a global religious institution with over 1.1 billion adherents (17.5% of the world's population); reach into every corner of the planet through its 500,000 priests, 800,000 sisters/nuns, 219,655 parishes (2); serious influence in as many countries as are in the Commonwealth, a privileged status as interlocutor with the two other Abrahamic faiths - Islam and Judaism - and two generations of intense experience in inter-faith dialogue and many centuries of co-existence.

Today, 177 states have diplomatic relations with the Holy See. The Holy See itself has a highly respected diplomatic corps with sharp eyes and ears which gets far closer to the ground than any ordinary diplomatic corps, through its network of bishops in each region and clergy in each locality.

Second, the Holy See is a respected interlocutor which pursues a policy of neutrality. Added to its global reach is the Holy See's central role in the wider/global intellectual and moral debate where religion and public policy are joined. The Holy See is taken seriously in the religious world and in particular in the world of ideas. The Holy See is a key stabilising influence in the global faith/politics debate. This global presence, and the experience it brings, means that the Holy See's thinking on a wide variety of themes and areas, far beyond the normal foreign policy subjects, carries weight.

Third, the Holy See is a hybrid of state and religion. The Holy See is the world's oldest organisation. It is perhaps also one of the most complex and interesting when it comes to governance and decision-making. On the one hand, in matters of doctrine and episcopal appointments it is very centralized, yet in other areas it follows a very well practiced model of subsidiarity, which devolves power to the most effective level. It is both a state and a religion. That is part of its uniqueness. It has a direct connection to between a fifth and sixth of the world's population, including over 11% of the UK population.

With these characteristics - global and local; global opinion former; respected interlocutor; state and religion; - it creates a potentially significant force in global diplomacy. But the Holy See is not about projecting global power, but projecting global ideas and it is on some of those ideas that we will focus our attention tonight. But before moving to those ideas a type of Post Script. The UK does not agree on all issue with the Holy See, indeed there are areas where there are quite different opinions. But those differences are very rarely about the end objective, but on the means to reach that objective and that is a key distinction. I do not know of a single diplomatic relationship which we have where there is a direct alignment of view - and our relationship with the Holy See is no different. If there were a direct alignment I would be out of a job.

Now let us move to those global ideas that have emerged in the Papacy of Pope Benedict XVI. Tonight, I have selected four themes which we can briefly focus on. They are the secular and religious, international development, climate change and disarmament.

Faith and reason: secular and religious
As I said, the experience of war-time Europe is at the very heart of the Pope's writings on Europe and of the need to heal the rupture between the secular and the religious. For the Pope, the greater co-operation between European states following the war was about building enduring peace and preventing future wars. But it was also about the order of society and the proper relationship between the religious and the secular. Benedict does not see an opposition between the enlightenment and Christianity, but compatibility. He writes, 'the fathers of European unification took as their point of departure a fundamental compatibility between the moral heritage of Christianity and the moral heritage of the European Enlightenment.'(3)

One of the major themes of this Papacy is to heal the rupture between faith and reason ushered in at the time of the Enlightenment and developed in the centuries since. Pope Benedict does not see faith and reason as enemies, but as allies. He does not see the Enlightenment as alien, but as something which itself grew out of faith. He comes out of a tradition - developed by Anselm of Canterbury - that does not see contradictions between faith and reason or philosophy and theology. But Benedict sees risks for a Europe that is cut adrift from its roots and history. He warns against 'the separation from all ethical traditions and the exclusive reliance on technological reasoning and its possibilities.'(4) Benedict says that rationality is an essential hallmark of European culture. He writes, 'yet this rationality can become devastating if it becomes detached from its roots and exalts technological feasibility as the sole criterion. The bond between the two great sources of knowledge - nature and history - is necessary.'(5)

Pope Benedict's aim is to heal the rift with the enlightenment - not to turn the clock back. For Pope Benedict religion and reason need each other. He acknowledges that when he says, 'there are pathologies of religion, as we can see, and there are pathologies of reason, as we can also see.'(6) Pope Benedict says that "Faith in God, the idea of God, can be manipulated, and then it becomes destructive; this is the risk that religion runs. But reason that cuts itself off from God completely and tries to confine him to the purely subjective realm loses its bearings and thus opens the door to the forces of destruction." He says, "Whereas the Enlightenment was searching for moral foundations that would be valid - even if God did not exist - we must invite our agnostic friends today to be open to a morality - as if God did exist."(7)

Benedict returns to this theme - of the proper respect between faith and reason - time and time again. Benedict has said, 'There can be no peace in the world without genuine peace between reason and faith, because without peace between reason and religion, the sources of morality and law dry up.'(8) Writing in his most recent Encyclical and the first dedicated to social concerns, Pope Benedict said, 'Secularism and fundamentalism exclude the possibility of fruitful dialogue and effective cooperation between reason and religious faith. Reason always stands in need of being purified by faith: this also holds true for political reason, which must not consider itself omnipotent. For its part, religion always needs to be purified by reason in order to show its authentically human face. Any breach in this dialogue comes only at an enormous price to human development'. The Pope is not a lone voice - nor are these voices confined to people of religious faith.

The philosopher Jürgen Habermas - and doyen of the Frankfurt School - echoed that point when he said, "it remains the case that liberal societal structures are dependent on the solidarity of their citizens. And if the secularisation of society goes off the rails, the sources of this solidarity may dry up altogether. That could well slacken the democratic bond and exhaust the kind of solidarity that the democratic state needs, but cannot impose by law. This would lead to the transformation of the citizens of prosperous and peaceful liberal societies into isolated nomads acting on the basis of their own self interest, persons who used their subjective rights only as weapons against each other."(9) The philosopher, Alasdair Macintyre characterizes this as Thomistic ideals coming up against Rousseauist ideals and he says this lack of a common language or ability to reach consensus could lead to a Nietzschean amorality of total chaotic relativism. (10)

And so what is the solution to this divorce between faith and reason? Professor Charles Taylor, writing in his award winning book The Secular Age, said that "Western modernity, including its secularity, is the fruit of new inventions. It should not be depicted as a rupture, but as an evolving story of human history with the secular and the religious dimensions not juxtaposed, but emerging from the same story." (11) Pope Benedict reinforces that point when he says, "It seems to me obvious today that secularism in itself is not in opposition to the faith. I would even say that it is a fruit of the faith because the Christian faith was a universal religion from the very start and consequently could not be identified with any single State; it is present in all States and different in these States. It has always been clear to Christians that religion and faith are not politics but another sphere of human life.... Politics, the State, were not a religion but rather a secular reality with a specific role... and the two must be open to each other."(12) Remember what I said earlier about projecting global ideas not power. Those ideas are now finding resonance in the political sphere. President Sarkozy said recently, 'secularism should not be a denial of the past. To uproot is to lose meaning; it is to weaken the foundation of national identity and to drain even more the social relationships that have such a need for memorable symbols'.(13)

So for Pope Benedict XVI there is a need for a "healthy secularity", based on collaboration, respect and dialogue. The Pope said, "Only in these conditions of healthy secularity can a society be constructed in which diverse traditions, cultures and religions peacefully coexist.' He said, 'to totally separate public life from all valuing of traditions, means to embark on a closed, dead-end path."(14)

International development
That brings us to our next theme tonight - International Development. The Holy See is a crucial partner to the international community if we are to deliver on the Millennium Development Goals by 2015. To this end, the Pope and Prime Minister exchanged letters in June and July 2008 and did so again at the start of this year's G20 Summit in London in April. The Pope wrote to the Prime Minister to remind leaders of the industralised world not to forget the plight of the poor in the developing world.

But the Holy See's contribution is not just in the policy sphere. The Catholic Church alone is reckoned to be the world's second largest international development body after the UN. More than 50% of the hospitals in Africa are operated under the auspices of faith-based organisations, with the Catholic Church in Africa being responsible for nearly one quarter of all health care provision. (15) In education too the Catholic Church provides around 12 million school places in Sub Saharan Africa each year.

The UK has worked closely with the Holy See to develop the International Finance Facility - IFF - which is a novel way to use the capital markets to front load development spending. As Chancellor, Gordon Brown went to the Vatican in 2004 to launch the concept. At that time, Pope John Paul II gave the concept his full moral support. In November 2006, Pope Benedict XVI went one step further and gave it his full practical support when he bought the first Immunisation Bond. The Bond raised over $1.6 billion to spend on health and immunisation programmes in 70 of the poorest countries. The funds raised will prevent five million child deaths between 2006 and 2015, and more than five million future adult deaths by protecting more than 500 million children in campaigns against measles, tetanus, and yellow fever. Pope Benedict's participation from the very outset helped spread the global message about the Bond and make it the success that it is.

Climate change and the environment
Our third theme tonight is climate change. The need to tackle climate change is something Pope Benedict has returned to repeatedly over the past four years. It was prominent in his most recent Social Encyclical - Caritas in Veritate. The Pope wrote, "Let us hope that the international community and individual governments will succeed in countering harmful ways of treating the environment. It is likewise incumbent upon the competent authorities to make every effort to ensure that the economic and social costs of using up shared environmental resources are recognized with transparency and fully borne by those who incur them, not by other peoples or future generations: the protection of the environment, of resources and of the climate obliges all international leaders to act jointly and to show a readiness to work in good faith, respecting the law and promoting solidarity with the weakest regions of the planet. One of the greatest challenges facing the economy is to achieve the most efficient use -- not abuse -- of natural resources, based on a realization that the notion of 'efficiency' is not value-free."

On the Pope's visit to Australia in July 2008, the Pope said, "it is appropriate to reflect upon the kind of world we are handing on to future generations....The wonder of God's creation reminds us of the need to protect the environment and to exercise responsible stewardship of the goods of the earth." In another speech during his visit to Australia he said, "I do not claim to enter into the technicalities that politicians and experts must resolve, but rather to provide an essential impetus, to make the responsibilities visible so that we may respond to this great challenge: to rediscover the Face of the Creator in Creation, to rediscover in the Creator's presence our responsibilities for his Creation, which he has entrusted to us, to form the ethical capacity for a lifestyle that we must adopt if we wish to tackle the problems of this situation and if we really want to reach positive solutions."(16)

But on climate change too the Holy See has led on practical steps. The Vatican City State is the world's first carbon neutral state through offsetting its emissions and installing solar panels. It also recently announced plans to build Europe's largest solar farm on 740 hectares to the north of Rome. That solar farm will produce enough energy to power over 40,000 homes and exceed the EU's renewable energy targets of 20 percent of demand by 2020. The UK is working with the Holy See in building up our South America Climate Change Network, which aims to raise awareness of climate change ahead of the UN Copenhagen Climate Conference to be held next month. And more recently, the Prince of Wales and the Pope discussed how the Vatican could co-operate on the Prince's Rainforest Project and perhaps replicate the success of the Pope's purchase of the IFF Immunisation Bond with the purchase of a Rainforest Bond.

But as important as those practical steps are, the real influence of the Holy See rests in its moral weight. Climate change is a curious mix of moral cause and strategic interest and the moral dimension is crucial in addressing climate change. Why? Because action can be motivated in any number of ways; some will be persuaded by self-interest through the economic or scientific evidence. But historically it has always been the moral argument that shifts the momentum toward political and social action in righting a wrong.

Disarmament
This brings us to our final theme of the night - disarmament. Last December in Oslo, the UK signed the Cluster Munitions Treaty. In reaching agreement on the Cluster Munitions, the Holy See played a vital role in getting the international community to build the necessary consensus to achieve a breakthrough. Over 100 states signed up to the Cluster Munitions Treaty. The Holy See was among the first to do so. Again, on 30 October this year, the Holy See was key in getting 153 states to vote in favour of a resolution at the UN General Assembly on moving ahead with an Arms Trade Treaty. The resolution was passed with only one state voting against and 19 abstaining. That vote last Friday in New York brought us a step closer to what Pope Benedict XVI called for in 2008 when he said, "I exhort all persons involved in the sale or traffic of arms, with interests that are often extremely lucrative, to ask themselves what are the consequences engendered by their behavior." He continued, "may the international community commit itself in this field together with the local authorities so that peace in all countries will gain ground every day."(17)

The UNDP estimates that up to one thousand people a day - mostly children and women - are killed because of the flow of illicit arms. And in the last three years it is estimated that over 2.1 million have died from armed violence. From the very outset the Holy See has been a strong supporter of the Arms Trade Treaty. In 2006, the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace said, "the many millions of victims in conflicts over the last 60 years have been caused by conventional, and especially, by light weapons. Moreover, the absence of effective monitoring systems on arms trade has a negative impact not only on peace processes, reconciliation and post-conflict reconstruction, but also on the stability of institutions and on sustainable development. Indiscriminate sale or transfer of conventional weapons is an inseparable part of problems connected with international terrorism, illegal trafficking of precious or strategic resources and the most abject manifestations of organized crime such as trafficking of human beings or drugs".(18) And in his recent Encyclical - Caritas in Veritate - Pope Benedict wrote, 'Violence puts the brakes on authentic development and impedes the evolution of peoples towards greater socio-economic and spiritual well-being.'

But why are we interested in working with the Holy See on disarmament issues? As with climate change and international development it is not just the practical efforts that are important, but also the moral voice which helps to propel those global ideas. Morally there is an urgent need to find a solution to the problems caused by the unregulated trade in conventional weapons. 2010 is a very important year for disarmament and Arms Control talks and we will also see the Review of the Non-Proliferation Treaty. The Holy See has much bring to bring to the debate - not only through its moral perspective, but also through its global diplomatic spread - which could again bridge the divide in the talks.

Conclusion
In conclusion, we have looked at the man, the structure and the policy. All three are essential to understanding the Papacy of Benedict four years into his Pontificate. In summary, his early life is directly connected to many of the themes he addresses today whether it is his commitment to disarmament, the need for global solidarity to fight poverty, or the very nature of how our societies manage the interplay of the secular and the religious. Pope Benedict does not see faith and reason at odds with each other, but as allies.

There can be a tendency today to jump to conclusions in this fast paced world and to assume that we know what the other is saying. With the Papacy, as with any other major leadership office there is always the risk that it will be misunderstood. That seems to be the price of having a place in the public square whether one is a religious or a political leader. In our culture the benefit of rapid communication is a double-edged sword because often it is driven by the quick and the brief - twitter being an obvious example. But that can often be at the expense of depth which realises that ideas have consequences. Pope Benedict - and his predecessor - saw first hand during the inter-war years what can happen when ideas are not properly grounded in reason and faith. They understood the relationship of ideas to what came after. They understood the real risks of being complacent about the very foundations of society. Ultimately, that experience is central to understanding the Papacy of Pope Benedict XVI as much as it was to understanding the era of John Paul II. Pope Benedict XVI engages us to focus on the fundamental values which are essential to a more humane society.

In diplomacy it is our task to provide a context - an understanding - and then to build bridges. Our task is not necessarily to turn one entity into the other or to erode essential difference, but simply to build relations. We can only do that if we understand a person, their context and their beliefs. Tonight, I hope this has helped to provide some insight into the Papacy of Benedict XVI.

Thank you for your attention.

Endnotes
1. Cultural Criticism and Society, 1951
2. Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae 2006
3. ibid, p 39
4. Josef Ratzinger, 'Europe Today and Tomorrow', Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2007, p 42
5. ibid, p 43
6. Josef Ratzinger, 'Europe Today and Tomorrow', Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2007, p 93
7. ibid , p 96
8. ibid, p 93
9. Jürgen Habermas cited in 'Habermas and Ratzinger, Dialectics of Secularisation', (Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2006, page 35
10. Alasdair Macintyre, 'After Virtue, University of Notre Dame Press; 2nd Edition (August 30, 1984)
11. Charles Taylor, A Secular Age, Belknap Press 2007
12. Pope Benedict XVI, interview on way to France, 12 September 2008
13. President Sarkozy, speech in Rome, 20 December 2007
14. Pope Benedict XVI, message to new Ambassador to San Marino, 13 November, 2008
15. Mixed Blessings: US Government Engagement with Religion in Conflict Prone Settings, Centre for Strategic Studies, Washington DC, July 2007, page 9
16. Pope Benedict XVI, Visit to Australia, July 12 2008
17. Pope's address to the new Ambassador from Cameroon, Vatican, 16 June 2008
18. Statement from the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, OCT. 11, 2006

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    William,

    Thanks for the information that was provided in the above text...Regarding
    the Pope's International Policy.

    =Dennis Junior=

  • Comment number 2.

    A diplomat speaking diplomatically about religious diplomacy.

    In my time at seminary we certainly lacked the devotion to the Pope in which the present day seminaries seem to be being immersed.

    "The Holy See follows a policy of neutrality." (Actually, no it doesnt.) However, the Gospel is many things. One of them is not 'neutral.' And has he never heard of the Church's supposed 'preferential option for the poor'? Hardly neutral.

    Benedicts early life, being brought up in Germany (as a Nazi - ommitted) has given him an awareness that the rest of us dont have, seemingly. No mention of Holocaust denyers being welcomed back to the fold.

    Again and again he refers to the Pope's emphasis on dialogue. For three decades this man has opposed dialogue, particularly within the church. He has attempted to, and been successful at, sacking priests and theologians who wanted dialogue. Where does this guy think Ratzingers nickname came from (Gods Rottweiler), from his cake baking classes for the elderly? One of the biggest criticisms levelled at this Pope, especially from those within the RC Church, has been his complete lack of collegiality.

    This guy also seems to be completely unaware of the fact that the Cardinals, in the lead up to the last Conclave, stated publicly over and over again that the major issue for the Church and therefore for the next Pope, is Global Poverty. It gets a whisper near the end of his speech.

    Neither does he make the real connection between arms, global warming etc.. and poverty.

    A speech from a representative of a country up to its neck in arms sales to the third world and a country which is presently, with the US, involved in a war which many believe to be illegal.

    Wonder how his question and answer session went.





  • Comment number 3.

    Pope Benedict was not brought up as a Nazi - that's a blatant lie

  • Comment number 4.

    I'll rephrase, - During his upbringing, Pope Benedict became a member of the Hitler Youth Movement.

  • Comment number 5.

    mccamley, you don't need to be so touchy about the Popes past. The Nazi social policy was aimed at saturating every aspect of German society with a Nazi grouping. It would have been virtually impossible to be active in German society in those times without being a member of some Nazi front organisation. It did not necessarily mean that you were a Nazi.

  • Comment number 6.

    Yes, I think that's the point McCamley was making, against the assertion that the Pope WAS a Nazi, and the implication of that that remained in the rewording.

    As you rightly point out, the fact that he joined the Hitler Youth movement as a child means absolutely nothing, and you wonder why anyone would even bring it up.

    And didn't he even abscond from that movement at one time, at some danger to himself? I forget the details, but perhaps someone could look it up.

    RJB, I normally enjoy your posts, but there was no need for that remark. It's an oft-used piece of near slander that does no argument any good.

  • Comment number 7.

    A quick search shows that he was conscripted into the Hitler youth, and the army, which he deserted.

    Hardly "being brought up as a Nazi" or even "becoming a member of the Hitler Youth". the word is "conscripted". which means "forced"

  • Comment number 8.

    BI

    I know that you are under a bit of presh on another thread, however, could you please show me where I say "being brought up as a Nazi"? That is not what I wrote at all. Both yourself and MCC should maybe try Spec Savers.

    And could you please tell me where my statement, "During his upbringing he became a member of the Hitler Youth Movement", is factually wrong?



  • Comment number 9.

    RJB;

    "could you please show me where I say "being brought up as a Nazi"? That is not what I wrote at all."

    you wrote

    "being brought up in Germany (as a Nazi"

    If you think I previously misquoted you it's because I left out the words "in Germany", which, I'm sure you'll agree, aren't really relevant. You did say precisely "being brought up as a Nazi". Perhaps you should take the trip to Specsavers yourself.

    "And could you please tell me where my statement, "During his upbringing he became a member of the Hitler Youth Movement", is factually wrong?"

    It's not. But omitting the fact that he had no choice, and deserted when he had the chance, and after you saying "being brought up in Germany (as a Nazi" you are attempting to imply some form of willingness.

  • Comment number 10.

    Look, I have no problem with anyone criticising the pope, but this is really just baseless mudslinging that could be aplied to anybody who lived in Germany at the time. Are you going to tar them all as Nazis?

    Like I say, if you want to criticise the pope, feel free. I just don't see why you should bring something like that into it.

  • Comment number 11.

    BI

    You have still misquoted me. Double trip to Spec Savers.

    Really quite ironic when you then go on to talk about my omissions when the word you have chosen to omit from my quote is - "omitted"
    Then you ramble on about if people want to criticise the Pope etc..

    Do you think I'm about fads or fashions? Do you think this is just this week's trick?

    Francis Campbell walks into a Catholic Senior Seminary and delivers a sugar-coated, airbrushed, very selective speech about the Pope. I cant really comment about it because I wasnt invited.

    However, William Crawley prints the speech in full on this blog and invites us to comment. Morally and in conscience, I will not sit back and say nothing and allow this fairy cake portrayal of Benedict to go unchallenged.

    My criticism - if you care to read carefully - is of Francis Campbell and his omissions in his speech.

    Nazi? Member of the Hitler Youth Movement? Think what you like. My comments were much more deliberate and carefully chosen than you give me credit for. And I'll add another. This man, Ratzinger, has used GESTAPO like tactics throughout his tenure as head of the CDF.

    The very things he proposes as features of good government and healthy society are the very things he has fought against - ruthlessly - in his own family, The Roman Catholic Church. He has sacked, silenced, persecuted and even excommunicated those who have offered a prophetic and dissenting voice.

    And MCC if you want to cry 'Liar!' shout it in the direction of Mr Campbell. There are quite a few belters in his address.

    By the way, why was he called 'God's Rottweiller'? The man Campbell describes above is more of a Poodle, dont you think?










  • Comment number 12.

    RJB

    "You have still misquoted me. Double trip to Spec Savers"

    How?

    I'll do it again.

    You said "being brought up in Germany (as a Nazi"

    So you said "omitted" meaning that the speaker ommitted that - it's still a claim you're making.

    The rest of your post is irrelevant. You criticise the pope. Probably rightly in many instances. I'm not suggesting its a fad or anything of the sort. The only thing I'm pulling you up on is that you said:

    "being brought up in Germany (as a Nazi"
    That is a direct quote. Look, it's up there. you typed it. and it's not true.

    That is all.

  • Comment number 13.

    Or maybe when you said "omitted" you meant "he ommitted the LIE that the pope was brought up as a Nazi"

    He ommitted all sorts of other lies as well. But of course, you don't think it's a lie. You were stating it as fact.

  • Comment number 14.

    BI

    (as a Nazi - omitted.) is the quote. Its taken you about five posts to get there.

    My point being that Mr Campbell gives a highly 'selective' overview of the Pope's upbringing, claiming that somehow he has a depth of understanding which the rest of us dont and that his upbringing has influenced him positively (rather than negatively)for the benefit of humankind. I challenge that.

    The FACT that the Pope recently welcomed back to the fold a known Holocaust denier, the FACT that his first words in his first Mass on his first visit to Germany were how happy he was to be back in the "Fatherland" - what an appallingly insensitive comment to a world wide audience (he was preaching at a world youth gathering organised before his election as Pope) - and the FACT that he has behaved with Gestapo like tactics towards dissenters in the Church, the FACT that he attacked homosexuals and demanded that steps be taken to get rid of them out of Catholic Seminaries in the United States (ring any bells, Bernard?), the FACT that he has demanded that priests and nuns wear their 'uniforms' at all times, the FACT that he stated publicly that the Church must grow smaller in order to 'purify' itself (WOW!!) - all of which seem to indicate that Benedict's upbringing has had more of a lasting, and slightly more 'sinister' influence than Mr Campbell would have us believe.

    I take it, since you had to google to find out about his involvement in the Hitler Youth Movement for starters, that you are ignorant of all of these facts.

    As I said earlier, Bernard, I chose my words extremely carefully.



  • Comment number 15.

    RJB, you didn't choose them carefully enough.

    "being brought up in Germany (as a Nazi - omitted)"

    So, you make the claim that he was brought up as a Nazi, and that this was omitted. Whereas the reason it was "omitted" is because it's not true. Does that even count as an "omission"?

    He also "omitted" the pope's being brought up as a wiccan witchdoctor, and the pope's early career as a rugby player.

    The pope was not "brought up as a nazi - omitted". That is simply untrue. If you think he is now like a nazi, make that argument. Just don't bring up what is essentially an accident of his birth in arguing against him. Surely that's a reasonable request?

  • Comment number 16.

    This is a silly argument, to be fair.

    I only took exception with your comment "being brought up as a Nazi - omitted". It was omitted because he wasn't brought up as a Nazi. I don't whether you think he acts like a Nazi now or not.

  • Comment number 17.

    BI

    I think Nobledeebee pointed that out (the sillyness) in post # 5. He actually made a very salient point.

    Anyway, sleaves rolled up, my friend, you look like you have your work cut out elsewhere. lol. I shall leave the real intelligent stuff to you and PK. (Go easy with each other, precious cargo and all that!!)

  • Comment number 18.

    Hahaha, I'll have to give him time, we're all busy people.

    He'll probably find the time to reply just as I'm becoming busy :) always the way.

  • Comment number 19.

    Smithy - now you say and I quote directly "This man, Ratzinger, has used GESTAPO like tactics throughout his tenure as head of the CDF". More baseless lies. Gestapo like tactics? That would be torture, execution, concentration camps, gassing? That's a bit of a stretch even for you in your deluded "I'm a liberal Catholic, I've been persecuted" state. Then this Rottweiler rubbish - a media creation. If the Pope's a dog then he's a German Shepherd and we love him.

    And the most pathetic "accusation" - that he referred to Germany as "fatherland" - I don't know if it's true, but it's not a Nazi term. Perhaps you've watched too many war films.

    Moving on to the actual speech by the UK Ambassador, I think it's a fairly accurate and insightful contribution from someone who's a lot closer and more knowledgeable than anyone else writing here.

  • Comment number 20.

    MCC

    In 1962 the Church issued the instruction CRIMEN SOLLICITATIONIS.
    This document is an order to the Bishops of the Catholic Church that in cases where any of their priests are accused of child sexual abuse, a silence must be imposed upon both the accusers and the accused. Failure to comply with this instruction could result in excommunication for either parties.

    On this point, please dont post back at me the standard replies of those who choose to collude in the cover up, "But that was over forty years ago... We know much more about abuse now.... No one really understood it then... etc.." It wont stand and here's why.

    In 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger and his secretary, Archbishop Bertone, sent another instruction to the Bishops on the same subject. (This is the document you claim in another post, doesnt exist and accuse me of lying.) The non-existent document is called, DE DELICITIS GRAVIORIBUS.

    In this document, Cardinal Ratzinger reminds the Bishops of the instructions given in CRIMEN SOLLICITATIONIS, but takes it a stage further. All cases of clergy sexual abuse "must be referred directly to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith."(CDF headed by.... Cardinal Ratzinger) and that all those involved are subject to "The Pontifical Secret." (The breaking of which may result in excommunication.)

    The exact "non-existent" wording is - "Those same matters must be dealt with in the most secretive of ways... They are to be restrained by perptual silence... Each and everyone.. is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office."

    The actual effects of the 1962 instruction were that the abused and their families, unaware of the instruction, were going to their local Ordinaries to seek justice and the most they ever achieved was the transfer of the accused priest to another parish, where he was free to abuse again.

    Exasperated at the completely innappropriate response by their own Bishops, these Catholic families sought justice from the CDF. Ratzinger saw all of these complaints, the pleading from the victims and the detailed descriptions of the horrific abuse these children had been subjected to........ and did nothing.

    In good faith, these families had wanted to spare hurting the Church which they belonged to, having been confronted with at least two stone walls, eventually had no other option but to go to the police and civil authorities.

    An editorial in the Tablet stated, "He (Ratzinger) chose to give greater weight to the prevention of scandal than he did to the protection of vulnerable minors."

    He may not have shone a lamp in anyone's face and said, "Vee Ave vays of making you talk!", but his behaviour certainly had more in common with the Gestapo than it did with the man who said about children, "It is to such as these that the Kingdom belongs."

    P.S. To date, 19 Catholic Bishops in the United States have been found guilty of colluding in the cover up of clergy child sexual abuse. To date, no punitive measures have been taken against any of them by Pope Benedict or indeed by the CDF, now headed by Benedict's personally appointed close friend, Archbishop William Levada.

    Meanwhile, Boston Cardinal Law's reward for repeated cover up and his refusal to co-operate with the police - appointed by Ratzinger to the prestigious post of Archpriest of St Mary Major, the third most important Basilica in Rome, after St Peter's and St John Latern's.

  • Comment number 21.

    Actually, I quite like Benny. You know where you stand with him.

  • Comment number 22.


    Graham

    "Actually, I quite like Benny. You know where you stand with him."

    You know, Graham, when I read that comment I thought I was on the recent Benny Hinn thread, and I was going to say, yea, you know where you stand, and where you fall with him!

    Wouldn't that have looked dumb! :-)

    BTW RJB, email address on the first leg of its journey.

  • Comment number 23.

    Cheers P!

  • Comment number 24.

    My understanding is that the young Ratzinger was only technically a member of tge Hitler youth (so called) because the law required all young people to be members. Unlike others he didn't get involved.

  • Comment number 25.

    I think "Cardinal Ratzinger" is catchier than Benedict. Why couldn't he keep his old name? Why do Popes insist on these secret identities, that's what I want to know.

    Ratzinger - sounds like a Roald Dahl character. Appeals to the kiddies. "Benedict" just makes him sound old. Honestly, whens the Vatican going to get it's PR sorted out?

    In all seriousness, part of the problem with the Catholic Abuse scandal is the sheer incomprehensibility of the bureaucracy. Who is responsible
    for what decision at what time? And I've referenced articles by conservative Catholic journalists complaining about the Bishop's response in the US. So it isn't just liberal Catholics that have concerns.

    That said, Pope Benedict made an important attempt to open dialogue with conservative Islamic scholars. The media panned it, but that's irrelevant. It was a considered attempt to let Islamic scholarship answer Western concerns about Islam.

    BTW - Traffic seems slower these days - or is it just me?

    GV

  • Comment number 26.

    Smithy - again, I say, Gestapo like tactics? The closest to Nazi we get is your Goebels like misinformation.

    I've put some further info below - but for those who don't want to read too much, let's just say you're in a local golf club. The club has a code of behaviour and among the rules are that people guilty of criminal acts will be suspended from membership as it reflects badly on the the Club. The club lays down a procedure for this, a committee will examine the matter and decide by vote. Now does this mean that the Club is covering up a crime? Does it mean that the Club is saying the normal rules of civil and criminal law will not apply? No, clearly it's a separate issue. So it is and was with the canonical processes of the Church.

    The Holy See has put out two documents that deal with the crimes of pedophilia:

    1. The instruction of March 16, 1962, "Crimen Sollicitationis," approved by Blessed Pope John XXIII and published by the Holy Office which later became the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It was an important document to "instruct" canonical cases and laicize the presbyters involved in the vileness of pedophilia. In particular, it dealt with violations of the sacrament of confession.

    2. The "Epistula de Delictis Gravioribus" (on most grave crimes), signed May 18, 2001, by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as prefect of the congregation. That letter's objective is to give practical execution of the norms ("Normae de Gravioribus Delictis") promulgated with the apostolic letter "Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela," published on April 30, 2001, and signed by Pope John Paul II.

    These documents deal with the Church's internal judicial acts, at the canonical level. Therefore they do not deal with the accusations and the provisions of the civil courts of states, which must be carried out according to their own laws. Whoever has addressed or addresses the ecclesiastical court can also address the civil court, to denounce similar crimes. Therefore the action of the Church is not aimed at retracting these crimes from the jurisdiction of the state and keeping them hidden.

    There exist two paths to ascertain and condemn priests responsible for acts of pedophilia: that of the Church, with canon law, and that of the state with penal law. Each of these two paths is autonomous and independent of the other: the civil forum and the canonical forum must not be confused. This means that, whether or not a civil trial has taken place, the Church must necessarily carry out the canonical process. At the moment of the application of canonical punishment, if it is deemed that the guilty priest has been sufficiently punished in the civil forum, in that case the canonical punishment can be withheld.

    In Italian law, a private citizen (this includes the bishop and anyone invested with ecclesial authority) is required to accuse [before the state] only crimes for which the penalty is life in prison. Yet, in Church law established in 1962, it was obligatory, under penalty of excommunication, to accuse [before the state] crimes of pedophilia if they happened in conjunction with the sacrament of confession. Therefore, from this point of view, the Church's legislation was more severe than that of the Italian state in punishing the crimes of pedophilia.

    To try and turn these documents into some sort of cover up, or to use the fact that the most serious crimes are reserved to the Holy See into some sort of white-wash beggars belief. It is willful ignorance, willful resistance of the known truth.

  • Comment number 27.

    "BTW - Traffic seems slower these days - or is it just me? "

    No, I don't think it's just you. Maybe the pre-moderation has at last driven many regulars away.:(

  • Comment number 28.


    Graham

    "Ratzinger - sounds like a Roald Dahl character. Appeals to the kiddies. "Benedict" just makes him sound old."

    Surely 'Benedict' is the boy who owns the Bellagio in Vegas, no?

  • Comment number 29.

    MCC

    I've now been promoted from just being a "blatant liar" x 2, to "willful ignorance, willful resistance of the known truth." Whose had his head buried in church documents all evening then?

    I've always found it funny, but utterly pathetic, when church people employ this strange pseudo legalist, church-speak in an attempt to add gravitas to an argument that most sane people are driving double decker buses through.

    The use of the word, "Promulgated" is always a dead give away. "Stated" would have sufficed, MCC, I think most of us on here got our eleven plus. Do I get extra weeks in Purgatory now that I'm "willfully ignorant" instead of just a plain blatant liar? It certainly sounds much more serious.

    You say that Mr Campbell is in a position to know Ratzinger far more than anyone on here. I dont think so. I've studied Ratzinger for over twenty six years now. I dont think that Campbell comes anywhere near that. You and I both know that his speech at Allen Hall was always going to be devoid of any criticism of Ratzinger otherwise, he wouldnt have been invited to speak. (I think it would also be fair to suggest that were Mr Campbell to criticise the Pope, he'd be handed his P45.) He's a diplomat, remember?

    However, lets see what two men who do know Ratzinger, two men who were employed by the Church, 'promulgated' regarding Crimen Sollicitationis and De Solicitis Gravioribus and what these two documents actually meant.

    Patrick Wall was employed by the Church and approved by the Vatican to implement Crimen Sollicitationes in the United States. When Ratzinger demanded "Exclusive Competence" regarding child sex abuse cases, Mr Wall stated, "I found out that I wasnt working for a Holy institution. I was working for an institution which was WHOLLY CONCENTRATED on protecting itself." He was sacked.

    Father Tom Doyle, a VATICAN lawyer who was also sacked for criticising the Church's handling of child sex abuse cases, stated, "What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sex abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen."

    These are two men who knew these two documents inside out and back to front. They have a rather different 'lived' experience of what the documents actually intended and what they effected.

    "Lets just say you're in a local golf club..." What?! To use a term from the sport, MCC, I think you're afraid of the dark...



  • Comment number 30.

    Somebody's been busy watching that rubbish Panorama programme again.

    On December 27, 2006, a California court found that Patrick Wall is not a credible witness concerning church procedures or doctrine. In two separate places in the order of the California court, the court states that: "The court finds that the testimony of the defense witnesses on matters of church procedures, doctrine, and Canon Law is more credible than that of Mr. Wall."

    As for Fr Doyle - did some good work back in the day - now involved with shady organisations like this one

    No, you don't get extra weeks in purgatory for resisting the known truth - sins against the Holy Spirit send you somewhere a little hotter.

  • Comment number 31.

    MCC

    A shady organisation?
    Cant get much shadier than allowing known child abusers to move from parish to parish, covering the tracks of pedophiles, etc..

    Mmmm The burning fire is it? Dunno, MCC, if I'm wrong about all of this I think I'll get a few weeks Purgie for being a bit of a big mouth at times, maybe making points a bit too heatedly etc.. But I think God, being the loving kinda guy that he is, might just say,

    "Look, at least you had the interests of vulnerable children at heart."

    "Now Mr Ratzinger, step this this way and bring yer wee pal McCamley with you...."


  • Comment number 32.

    How can a system such as discredited catholicism advise on international issues such as the environment?

    If Ratzinger can't keep his own *little sheep* safe from the big bad wolves (child abusers) then why does he think he can save the world with his empty rhetoric.

    J

  • Comment number 33.

    I am pleased to see the Church take so seriously, seeing as it is a theory based only on science. But the reality is that its not the people who need to be made aware of the threat of climate change its the politicians and business leaders.

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