´óÏó´«Ã½

Some interesting thoughts in the comments there. Had never thought of 'Hail Mary, full of grace' in the sense that she was bearing God's plan to bring grace rather than simply being about her own gracefulness. Hadn't thought about Barrabas from the perspective of him benefitting either - the fickleness of the crowd and the injustice to Christ is what always gets the attention there.

I'm a bit more wary of meditative monologues though. There's something that makes me uncomfortable about trying to put words in the mouth of characters in the Bible, particularly Jesus himself. Then again I see the value in trying to empathise with their situation and think myself into shoes. There's a bit of a tension there.

I'm curious about what other people thought about the references to restoring all of creation. I'd have though that redeeming or rescuing would have been more appropriate given that it's a new heaven and a new earth which are superior to the old ones. Restoring suggests moving backwards, while redeeming seems to be more about moving forwards and surely Easter of all times is an occasion for moving forwards into something new and wonderful.

People on the edge of their pan, more like!

People cut their hedge with a pin?
What are you on about, Helio?


Funny, while I agree with Jonathan, " There's something that makes me uncomfortable about trying to put words in the mouth of characters in the Bible, particularly Jesus himself." the idea of trying to enter the minds of the characters in various situations intrigues me, and in particular, the question, 'if I had been that character...'

As Helio keeps saying, we've lost the humanity! Odd that divinity should be so human.

Pete

Try this.



Although I would add that it wont work if you decide to try it at half time during the Porto v Arsenal match.

RJB

Thanks for the link.

(I'm sure you'll understand how to read the rest of this post!)

Have you any idea of the trouble you're going to get me into if I even hint at reading (or worse) trying the contemplation?

In my experience there's only one thing considered worse than the Pope to an Northern Ireland Protestant, and you refer me to their website!!

(will I even get away with posting that comment?)

I've read a variety of contemplations before (from an interdenominational devotional book) and quite enjoyed them, but, to be honest, I ran into the problem of not being able to trust me!! Maybe that seems odd?

I will take a look at it though (there, that's me done for now!!)


What's the problem with it not working at half time though? Could I try it during the second half if I turn the sound down?!

:-)

Peter

You shall have to educate me on what the Northern Ireland 'thing' with the Jesuits is. I noticed CC called me one when he was angry at me. What is the history there?

And if there is a hatred of the Jesuits amongst Northern Ireland Protestants, you are much closer to Rome than you think.

Not all Northern Ireland Protestants! I am very good friends with a Jesuit and have tremendous admiration for his ministry.

The first ecumenical retreat I ever went on was held in the Jesuit Centre at Milltown Park - I was only a teenager but the vivid impression it made still remains. It was there I was first introduced to the Maundy Thursday antiphon Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est - it has become my only creed.

I have just come back tonight from our Ash Wednesday Penitential Service which was based upon the first section in the course, Jesus in the Wilderness. I found the meditation worked for me, especially as a feed for contemplation during the question-time.

In that context I note, Jonathan and Peter, your reservations about putting words in the mouths of Biblical characters, especially Jesus. That thought came back to me as I was reflecting during the service and with it came the thought that the lives of all of us who take on ourselves the name of Christ are words put in His mouth. Slightly sobering.

RJB
On the Jesuit 'thing'. It was more of a popular sentiment I picked up than anything else, that somehow the Jesuits were more anti Protestant than any other Catholic. I had no evidence of this of course!
And Parrhasios is correct, not all Protestants.

Parrhasios
"the lives of all of us who take on ourselves the name of Christ are words put in His mouth."
Yikes! You have me there. Nailed, I suppose I could say.

On an Ash Wednesday aside, I heard someone mention pancakes today, you know Pancake Tuesday and all that. I asked, 'When's Pancake Tuesday?'

What can I say, I'm a Presbyterian!! Maybe I should say that for us, every Tuesday is Pancake Tuesday! :-)

People putting words into the mouth of Jesus? Why break a 2000 year-old tradition, Peter? We've already discussed how people fit Jesus to their racial profile, and of course they mashed his words to fit what they wanted. If he were alive today, he'd be turning in his grave...

Parrhaisos, your creed is not far from the truth, and as an atheist I can somewhat identify with it.

Helio

"Why break a 2000 year-old tradition", you know you are funny... even when you're being serious!

But don't you think the way Parrhasios describes it is much more potent?

I might guess it's why you like the creed he quoted, and perhaps why you speak more fondly of Jesus than *belief*: the creed, and Jesus, ring true.

Helio - somewhat is good enough for me.

Peter - I don't know about you but it certainly nails me.

Parrhasios, about putting words into Jesus mouth, that's something I think I'll be meditating on for the rest of the week. It brings to mind the difference between Narnia and the Shack: in Narnia, Aslan is the answer to the question 'would would Jesus be like if he had come into a world like Narnia?' whereas the Shack is answering 'what is Jesus like in our world?' I'm much more comfortable with the first approach, whereas the second seems rather presumptive and dangerous. But it's easy to say that about someone else's work; I wonder how careful I am about making the distinction in what I say. Time to review what I'm preaching on Sunday perhaps.

Jonathan

I'm tempted to say that there are other differences between Narnia and The Shack. (and seven books verses one isn't one of them)!!!!!!

For starters, Lewis' writing is good enough to get further than the first page of the Narnia books.

OK then - what about Narnia vs Heinlein's "Job" or "Stranger in a Strange Land"?

Yep, Jonathan, pretty much.


Helio, have to say haven't read either, but, if wiki is correct, then there's some kind of (satirical) church theme going on. Yes? No? Funny? Not?