大象传媒

Yes, and I would imagine that Stafford doesn't celebrate Christmas (a pagan festival); he doesn't deck the halls with holly or ivy (pagan), no Santa or Christmas tree? Religions are all much of a muchness in this respect. When we engage in worship, we do need to realise that there isn't *really* a god there - it is purely a ceremony for community cohesion. We make god in our own image, and Stafford's god is just as artificial a construct as the gods of Ancient Greece or the river spirits of the Apache. Live and let live, big lad.

People dressed up as animals, PCUSA's chosen way of paying homage to "native American spirituality". A little bit pagan?
This was a two-hour, spectacular presentation, and one of the most spirtual presentations that I鈥檝e ever seen. The opening hymn was "All Creatures of Our God and Our King".
There was an initial call to worship; then, a vibrant, lovely parade of giant puppets (maybe the giants of the Bible), turtles (upon whose back the earth is perched) and eagles (that soar to the Heavens), deer and butterflies 鈥� all apparently praising God.
The program can be found on the web: 219th General Assembly (2010), Service of Opening Worship Excerpts.
The program starts:
鈥淧lease rise in body or in spirit and turn slowly and carefully to the four directions, as indicated by the worship leaders.
We are called to worship this day in the tradition of my people, who, for generations, lived here, at the Big River where the prairie meets the woods. Please rise in body or spirit, and join us as we turn to the four directions of God鈥檚 creation.
And then the Leader entreats: "Come, Holy Spirit, as we gather in your name.鈥�
Further on the Leader entreats: 鈥淗elp us to open our eyes to the sacredness of every living thing, as we pray together: Come, Holy Spirit, come.鈥�
For those that are not familiar with the Native American "Blessing of the Four Directions," (part of the Medicine Wheel ritual), this is from where the precession and service originated.
Some have said that this is panentheism; perrhaps it is, but so what? Is out earth (Gia) not sacred? Are all God鈥檚 creations not sacred? Are you not sacred and I? Everything that exists is part of God and God a part of it. If we humans, custodians of God's universe, remembered this consistently we would never lay an evil hands upon that which God created.

Heliopolitan (@ 1) -

"When we engage in worship, we do need to realise that there isn't *really* a god there - it is purely a ceremony for community cohesion."

Oh, joy! I have learnt something new today. The matter in my (supposed) ape brain has just dribbled forth a new idea. I have just encountered 'Helio's Law'.

'Helio's Law' is an elegant new theory. It goes something like this: when a group of people come together to praise someone or something, it must be true that the thing or person they are praising cannot exist, since they are only performing this activity for community cohesion.

Brilliant stuff!! Helio is a genius.

I am so relieved now. Next time we sing the national anthem we now know for sure that the Queen does not exist! Oh, thank you for Helio's Law. How wonderful Helio must be. (Oh whoops! I can't praise Helio, otherwise that will mean he doesn't exist!!)

Blast. Back to the drawing board we go (but the illusion was great while it lasted).

Yes, and I would imagine that Stafford doesn't celebrate Christmas (a pagan festival); he doesn't deck the halls with holly or ivy (pagan), no Santa or Christmas tree

You're probably correct Helio. He most likely doesn't (although I think you were being facetious)

These days, the attitude to Christmas festivities in evangelical circles has become somewhat puratanical (literally) with Santa (didn't you realise it was an anagram of Satan) in particular coming in for a lot of stick. The Puratans did of course ban the festival and it was only revived in the middle of the 19th cerntury by the Victorians.

The Rev. Carson's church is also pushing Young Earth Creationism. From his church's website:



Why a Creation Resource Library?
To help answer such questions as:
鈥� Did God make everything in six literal days?
鈥� Could Noah鈥檚 Ark have held all the air-breathing creatures?
鈥� Noah鈥檚 Flood: Where did all the water come from and go to?
鈥� How do Dinosaurs fit in with the Biblical account?
鈥� How old is the earth?
鈥� If the universe is young, why can we see stars that are billions of light years away?

The aims of the library:
鈥� To demonstrate the the Theory of Evolution is not in accordance with scientific fact.
鈥� To show that Evolutionary teaching causes a decline in morality and true Christianity.
鈥� To increase our faith in the reliability of the Bible, as the inerrant Word of God,
by supplying scientific information which verifies the account of creation

Not sure if he agrees with the above or not.

Where is Christian Calvinist when you need him? I seem to recollect that he once advised us that Presbyterian minister Revd Alastair Smyth thoroughly approved of this sort of thing when done by the Orange Order. I wonder what he thinks of it in this context?

Peter, I never realised that. So he's giving off about a bit of harmless pageantry, while his very own church is pushing odious lies at the poor dupes he gets to line his pews? That is actually quite shocking.

LSV, you can sing the National Anthem all you want, but I seriously doubt Her Majesty will be crushing any rebellious Scots over the next wee while.

How on earth do people get away with perpetuating the sort of stuff that is mentioned in the 'creation resource library' ?? Awful.

His response just typifies the narrow minded views of people who see the bible as inerrant. So deep is their fear that they have to cling onto that for dear life and impose it upon others as well!

#4

Peter,

Reminds me of the dyslexic devil-worshipper who sold his soul to Santa...

>8-D

Creationist pseudoscience is not officially a policy of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, although I have it on reasonable authority that over 90% of those who go through training for the ministry at Church House are young earth creationists. It's a pretty sad reflection on the Presbyterian Church that the cohort of future leaders are approaching this from such a low and frankly stupid base. I would suggest that one of the duties of the current Moderator (who is not a YEC, I am informed, and supports theistic evolution) should be to root out this ignorant nonsense. They can get around to rending their garments about paganism after they have dealt with the crazy in their own ranks first. Beams and motes.

[Sorry, I of course meant Union Theological College. If it can't buck its act up, they should shut it down]

Creationist pseudoscience is not officially a policy of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland

Yep, I've been told this on at least four occasions Helio, not least by Dr. Desi Alexander of Union Theological College.

Still, I notice the Church's outreach arm, Belfast City Mission, are now using it as a form of evangelism.

On the anti Christmas theme, the last Presbyterian congregation I was a member of the pastorial assistant told his youngster, as soon as he was old enough to talk (about 3 I think) that there was no such thing as Santa. The minister of the church also took a very anti-santa stance (Christmas was for celibrating Christ's birth, not Santa Claus).

This Puratanical attitude towrds Christmas is prevalent throughout evangelical circles now, just like YECism and the more extreme position on abortion (i.e. abortion is akin to murder ).

I'm glad to see the present moderator isn't a YEC though. I think someone in the PCinI needs to bring this issue to the fore, rather than letting people such as the Rev.(Dr. ?)Robin Greer set the aggenda.

Considering the gender row in his church a few years ago, it would appear the Rev. Carson is positioned on the more right wing end of the denomination, which I find somewhat strange. He didn't come over like this any time I heard him preach when he was at Carnmoney.

It also begs the question helio, is the Presbyterian Church in Ireland now anti science ?

Peter: maybe what he preaches to the populus is not the same as his own inner convictions and beliefs? ??

LSV,

You really need to start reading posts before you comment on them. Here's the quote of Helio's that you mined, and I've taken the time to highlight the important piece.

"When we engage in worship, we do need to realise that there isn't *really* a god there - it is purely a ceremony for community cohesion."

It was a conjecture; not that every time people get together they believe this, but when people get together they should realise their folly.

Your ability to pick and choose your own meanings from posts is remarkable. Perhaps you should use logic to figure out which bits make for best soundbites?

Peter, I know I've waffled on about this before, but I do think that Christians themselves need to take a more robust stance on this infiltration of junk into their theological outlook. There really is no excuse for letting the creationists away with it, and rebranding "intelligent design" (as John Lennox deviously tried to do in his laughable "God's Undertaker") will not do.

And when you think about it, there really IS nothing more pagan and pointless than imagining that scientific matters can be settled theologically (which is also what occupies the majority of that strange corpus "Should Christians Embrace Evolution?" - guess what answer the contributors come up with!). The origins and subsequent evolution of the universe are scientific matters, and paganism, whether it is Christian (creationism) or otherwise (animism, Wicca etc) may work OK as a psychological crutch for some folks, but it doesn't cut it in the real world.

maybe what he preaches to the populus is not the same as his own inner convictions and beliefs? ??

I've kind of been told that Eunice.

His blog post maybe more for 1st Portadown than for anyone else.

There really is no excuse for letting the creationists away with it

Which is difficult Helio as there are so many of them now, especially in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. .

I may pop along to one of the meetings Greer is doing at Rathcoole Belfast City Mission at the end of the month. I wonder what his reaction will be if I put the official line of the PCinI to him ? Will he accept:

"So long as a Christian accepts that God created the heavens and the Earth, how and when he did it is for the individual to decide".

If this is the case then why is the official outreach arm of the church having a speaker who believes:

1.Scripture teaches a recent origin for man and the whole creation, spanning approximately 4,000 years from creation to Christ.

2.The days in Genesis do not correspond to geologic ages, but are six [6] consecutive twenty-four [24] hour days of creation.

3.The Noachian Flood was a significant geological event and much (but not all) fossiliferous sediment originated at that time.

4.The gap theory has no basis in Scripture.

5.The view, commonly used to evade the implications or the authority of biblical teaching, that knowledge and/or truth may be divided into secular and religious, is rejected.

6.By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

and those who believe in the gap theory don't even accept biological evolution ?

The PCinI just doesn't make any sense on this issue.

A fair point. To my eyes, there is no meaningful distinction between theistic Christianity and "paganism". They are all cut from the same grubby cloth, and despite the official divorce, "YHWH and his Asherah" are clearly on more than speaking terms. Perhaps Stafford just needs to get out a bit more.

In the past, what distinguished Presbyterians, Baptists and Congregationalists from the semi-reformed Anglicanism/ Lutheranism was the Regulative Principle, which states that we order the Church according to God's commands and not man's inventions.

If 1st Portadown PCI has this crazy children's address, then they are just a lesser degree of disobedience from the PCUSA. Neither subject themselves to Christ's kingship.

It saddens me greatly when I hear of "enlightened whites" celebrating Native American paganism, esp. when I remember visiting the Cherokees a few years ago. (My wife has Cherokee and Seminole ancestry.) Talking to the Cherokees about the Trail of Tears and those who avoided this atrocity, they told me how those who suffered on it were Christians, whereas those who avoided it were pagans. They went on to add that vast majority of the descendants of these pagans were Christians now. Their devout Evangelical faith struck me.

I am also reminded at how Communist China has a far more positive view of historic Protestantism (not Liberalism) than the decadent West. (See /news/world-asia-pacific-10942954.%29 They are more objective and honest than Dawkins and Co. who need to go on course in logic.

Cotton Mather: "Religion brought forth prosperity and the daughter consumed the mother."

Ah, a little rumour-mongering, a few anonymous sources and suddenly PCI is anti-science. How open, honest and charitable. I particularly love the way Christians are apparently too pagan when they deny evolution, but not pagan enough when they deny Santa.

More on topic, what you are describing BluesBerry is indeed a form of pantheism and utterly opposed to Christianity. God and creation are no the same thing, nor is creation inherently sacred. Christianity teaches that creation was originally good (very good upon the creation of man), that it is loved by God, but that it has been damaged, cursed, left impure by the Fall and is in need of redemption.

I looked up the extract you mentioned and the opening ritual does strike me as a bit syncretistic, especially if this is an adaption of what are fundamentally pagan rituals. I can understand wanting to express Christianity in a way that is culturally sensitive, so I can see value in what is trying to be achieved, but it looks like they've gone beyond being culturally sensitive and started to incorporate false religion too.

How to Conduct Pagan Worship
First, gather a majority of like-minded people together. These people should regard their conscience and feelings much greater than God鈥檚 Word. Should a minorty show up and insist God鈥檚 Word be followed and honored, be sure to belittle them and defame them as intolerable. There鈥檚 a good chance you鈥檒l get rid of them since they take that passage in 2 Cor 14-16 very seriously.

Second, take great care to use lots of Christian lingo in your advertising of the gathering. That way newbies will be none the wiser about your agenda. Be sure to throw the words Jesus Christ around a lot. Newbies seem to be drawn to those words.
Third, seek out images of birds and animals to dance throughout the worship service. Hiring puppeteers to handle this important feature is best. Your like-minded attendees will love this! They will see it as art and creativeness, and these dancing puppets will keep them grossly entertained. Don鈥檛 forget to throw in a baptism and some reading from God鈥檚 Word to throw off the newbies. You don鈥檛 want them to actually know your gathering is pagan. Usually, as long as you entertain them, you鈥檒l fool them into thinking they are worshipping Yahweh.
Well, there you go, some great advice on how to conduct a pagan worship service. Remember, actually believing in or taking seriously God鈥檚 Word is completely unacceptable. As per PCUSA vice-moderator 鈥渞everend鈥� Landon Whitsitt, 鈥淕od鈥檚 Word is only a reference point.鈥� It鈥檚 not actually a word from God afterall.

For those of minority in the PCUSA, let us not forget God鈥檚 actual, breathed-out Word: For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. Romans 1:22 鈥� 25