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"Five Anglican Bishops quit Church of England for Rome."

Two Anglican couples who were not happy with married clergy, female priests and gay Bishops, approached a priest friend of mine and asked to become Roman Catholics.

The priest refused them and asked them to come back when they have good reasons for becoming Roman Catholics.

It's a fine point, I know. But Bishop Gene Robinson is not retiring, his is resigning as Bishop of New Hampshire. He made this clear in media interviews on Monday when he said that he had not yet decided exactly what is role would be in the Church. As the Los Angeles Times reported: "He will still be a bishop, he said, just not the leader of a diocese."

The retirment age for an bishop in the US Episcopal Church is 72.

RJB - my grandfather was sufficiently friendly with his local priest for them to discuss matters of religion freely. After a spate of conversions (probably due to Ne Temere marriages) Fr O'Leary opined that "those who lost them didn't lose much and those who gained them didn't gain much".

Plus ça change...

@RJB, wouldn't it be great if they would tell little children the same thing? Run along, wee Johnny, until you have a bit more of an idea of the nature of the organisation you are thinking of joining. See you when you're 48...

Can't see it myself.

I never wear a poppy, of either hue. I find the grossly inaccurate language used to obscure the reality of war offensive: why speak of glory, heroism, sacrifice, eternal memory when you mean enforced participation, fear, stupidity, conformity and oblivion? Why speak of a proud and grateful nation when you mean an ingrate and uncaring state? The whole thing is nothing but the most entirely disgusting sham and hypocrisy.

Could Aquinas' state of ecstasy have been a complete mental breakdown and is not Scruton simply saying that there are things we will never be able to explain?

Raymond Tallis, an atheist, was on the radio a few weeks ago talking about how people who are not religious can have transcendental experiences. Does anyone know anything about this kind of argument?

Newlach - to describe Aquinas' ecstasy as a complete mental breakdown is to exhibit modern prejudices. There is, however, just about no Christian religious or spiritual experience which is not both duplicated in other religions and potentially indicative of mental or physical illness. The absolutely classic case is the eleventh century mystic, Abbess Hildegard of Bingen: look at the manuscripts she had prepared to illustrate her visions; it is obvious she suffered from the most colossal migraines.

Helio

If people contemplated on the nature of what they were joining, especially the RC Church at present, nobody would sign up.

Par

I'm sitting listening to the ´óÏó´«Ã½'s Breakfast television. There are two main stories - Armistice Day and unemployment. One is full of empty, emotional sentimentality, the other a portrayal of lazy, good for nothing spongers.

Both nauseatingly innacurate, both deliberately promoted by "ingrate and uncaring" politicians. Their harsh condemnation of one group exposes their insincerity towards the other.

Parrhasios:

I find I am agreeing with you on almost everything except the authorship of Shakespeare (a pity you can't see the Baconian light there). The whole Poppy thing has been seized by warmongers as a means of support for 'our boys' sent to Iraq and Afghanistan for causes they barely understand.

It is important to remember the dead, but it is far more important to nourish and protect the living. The sight of millionaire members of a government that has launched the biggest onslaught on the poor since WW2 laying wreaths to remember the fallen is frankly nauseating.

Imagine a priest friend of Jellyboy doesn't believe in the Catholic Church either; there's a surprise. The ordinariate is the most significant development in oecumenism in decades and the liberals all reject it in favour of what - some hopeful future in which Christians will all join together in rejecting traditional Christianity? Perhaps headed by Gene Robinson. Give me a break.

"Doesn't *believe in* the catholic church."

Could you explain what you mean by "believe in" there?

No - if you don't understand what I mean then no explanation of mine will help you understand. You say you believe in it every Sunday in the creed and anytime you say the Apostles Creed while praying for the Pope's intentions to gain a plenary indulgence.

Mccamley, you mean the Roman Catholic Church that is shaped how you recognize it today with the conversion of Emperor Constantine in 318 AD?,"where the church began to adopt a governmental structure mirroring that of the Roman Empire, in which geographical provinces were ruled by bishops based in the major city of the area".

Or do you mean specifically Papal authority, as set out by the first tradional Pope you would recognize as a modern Roman Catholic- Pope Leo I -"Leo's claims were strengthened greatly by his own impressive career as Bishop of Rome. In 445AD he earned the express support of Emperor Valentian, who said the Bishop of Rome was the law for all*
All refers to all Catholics I assume , or did Roman Emperor Valentian mean all- as in everyone regardless of religion?

It's ok Mccamley- you don't have to answer me today, maybe you can reply on Saturday - a Roman day- Day of Saturn *Dies Saturni* . Or perhaps the day of rest, Sunday -Roman day of the Sun *Dies Solis*

Mccamley *your* Christianity has more to do with being part of the last living vestige of the Roman Empire than anything else, you are a colonial representative of the Roman Empire- Im sure Jesus would be proud

Well done Ryan - so you can read Dan Brown.

The story about "Amazing Grace" gives a misleading impression of John Newton. He was not a slaver who saw the error of his ways and who withdrew from the vile trade to write hymns.

Diarmaid MacCullough writes that:

"The trade taught him discipline, and formed the setting for his Evangelical Calvinist conversion in 1747".

He goes on to write that it was a stroke and not any qualms of conscience that finished his career in 1754. It took another three decades before Newton expressed his revulsion at the slave trade.

MCC

Thanks. I shall now rush off and immerse myself in medieval church teaching about plenary indulgences to help me cope with life in the 21st century.

PS - Do any of you know how to make bows and arrows? I'm hungry.

Hey Mccamely,No, I haven't read any Dan Brown. The quotes were from a Catholic website.

For those who like to mix religion with ideas of nationhood- mccamley you might find this interesting. Little over a century after the Normans invaded England , Henry II who controlled England and Norman France (born in Le Mans) "landed in Waterford, Ireland, at the head of an army of 4,000 in October 1171, carrying with him the Papal Bull Laudabiliter, by which the Pope bestowed Ireland as a gift to the King on condition that he brought the Irish Church and people into submission to Rome" - and Gregorian Reform
The Norman Invasion of Ireland ensued under the pretext of this Papal Bull
Sorry Mccamley, what were you saying in post 11 about ecumenism lol

Ryan - alas that's what happens when you have an English Pope.

The problems in Ireland following Norman invasion would have settled down if the Anglican reformation hadn't followed. It was the apostasy of the English and Scottish churches that caused the problems we have in Ireland.

Very drole Mccamley. I think it relates more to Submission to Rome and the Normans.
Going back further, to the 7th century AD. The Irish and British church at the time had a distinctive system for determining Easter, separate from that used in the rest of Christendom. Roman missionaries wanted it to submit to Roman authority on the matter and change from their 84 yr cycle to the Alexandrine computus. The Irish Church were persuaded by the British Church to follow Rome and not split over the issue so I guess the English have always been pushing the Irish into the arms of Rome lol

The Irish and British churches may have celebrated Easter on different dates and had a funny tonsure, but they were still Catholics in communion with Rome. As St Patrick said, as you are children of Christ, be you also children of Rome.