Some churches, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, have already done do -- providing an opportunity for all church members to have an HIV test on the premises. In a few cases, churches have for all pastors, church workers and would-be married couples. But some churches in Britain and Ireland have failed even to acknowledge the existence of a global HIV pandemic in prayers, sermons or special liturgies.
HIV campaigners are challenging churches and other religious groups to put HIV on their agenda by encouraging clergy to preach against the stigmatization of people living with HIV. That might be a very appropriate way to mark .
Or perhaps churches here should consider offering their members HIV tests during or after worship. Would that be such a bad idea?
Should churches run HIV clinics? The answer depends on the church and its beliefs. e.g. Some parts of the Catholic Church are opposed to education about, and promotion of, condoms for HIV prevention. Pope Benedict XVI, making his first papal visit to Africa, said that condoms are not the answer in the fight against HIV/AIDS. Priests resist condom use in the HIV community of Tanzania. In fact, teaching about condoms has been described by Roman Catholic bishops in Tanzania as ‘unacceptable’, in spite of the spread of HIV/AIDS in the country. More than two million Tanzanians have been diagnosed HIV positive. The Cardinal of Cameroon has endorsed the use of condoms as a protective measure against Aids, provided the couples using them are married. He said that if a partner in a marriage was infected with HIV, the use of condoms made sense. He also agreed with the Vatican view that fidelity and abstinence remained the best protection against HIV. Around 11% of Cameroon’s population are infected with HIV. Several church leaders have now broken ranks with the Vatican. Cardinal Georges Cottier, the theologian of the papal household, said that the biblical commmandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ should be considered in cases where sexual activity involved a partner with HIV. In Kenya … the Catholic Church condemned the use of condoms and any form of birth control; Protestant churches have been less harsh, but also condemn premarital sex, birth control, and condoms. In spite of this, most schools and local clinics, including those run by various churches, are conducting HIV prevention education and condom distribution programs. In some youth groups, HIV prevention methods are being discussed with the full knowledge of the church. I think because of the disparity of beliefs, Government nurses and health educators should be the ones to discuss Aids and condoms, even distribute condoms. As faith-based organisations involved in HIV prevention, may do more harm than good, especially when AIDS and condoms get all mixed up with sin and shame.
It seems that another 'World Aids Day' will pass without people being willing to face the moral issue at the heart of the crisis.
Christian Churches who wish to remain faithful to the Bible will teach that sexual relationships belong within marriage, and that going outside those God-given parameters risks many problems - including STD's and AIDS.
The way out of the AIDS crisis is not the widespread distribution of condoms, but the return to sexual intimacy within marriage, as the Creator intended.
Whatever other measures may be suggested, Christian love demands no less.
"The way out of the AIDS crisis is not the widespread distribution of condoms, but the return to sexual intimacy within marriage, as the Creator intended."
I am not aware of any moral issue at the heart of the crisis. My understanding is that it is a virus and one with no definable intelligence with which to understand morals. You may have moral issues but that's for you to follow as no-one is suggesting you should go against your conscience or nature within the law. You are surely not suggesting that you are a special case in that freedom.
Also if you are going to require sexual intimacy within marriage, by extension (as we live in a fair and equal society) you must be advocating that marriage is open to all who can legally form loving sexual relationships. Anything else would be discriminatory and so be legally challenged.
As for the creator chappie, as you guys can't even agree on who he is, or when he did his creating bit, we can't really rely on your various takes on what he intended, or that he actually exists.
So until such times as you come up with any proof for anything you say as regards your creator chappie, I will continue to advocate and use condoms as advised by the medical profession and the Rainbow Sector professionals who know a bit more about viruses and protection than the average Pastor. Remember, neither HIV nor condoms existed when your stories were written.
I'm puzzled why churches might need to staff HIV testing clinics? That service is readily available here in the States at any health dept.Is the situation different in the UK? The Missionaries of Charity provide care for those who suffer from AIDS, as do other religious groups.One of my children has volunteered at an AIDS hospice.It requires a deep commitment beyond wearing a red ribbon once a year.
I think some churches could cope with it, some couldn't. My concern is not them being able to do the test, there are fast (5 Minute) kits which are pretty simple to administer, it is could they cope with the counselling.
Could they offer a confidential and non judgemental testing environment to encourage people to be tested without fear of people asking why they needed to be tested or using it as an opportunity to moralise (like Pastor Philip who couldn't let such a serious issue pass by without taking the opportunity to have a good preach). If someone comes in and gets a positive result can they be there for them without the "told you so dance" (PastorPhilip again) and some advanced religious hand wringing.
Could they then offer that person the support they will need when living with HIV as they access all the services and treatments they will require. It's too late to moralise anyway, just get on with doing what that person needs most. It's what you do for other people with challenges in their lives.
I would love to think they could because, much as I personally see no value in religion, some people get a lot of strength and comfort from it. If the church was able to see the person (their friend) and their needs as opposed to the circumstances then the for the HIV+ Christian etc the ability to be supported within their extended "family" would be of great value. I see what happens when believers with HIV are actively rejected by their congregations either directly (shunned) or indirectly (ostracised by doctrine and preaching). It is like a double whammy, your diagnosis and then cut off from were you feel most supported. And if your church feels you are beyond the pale, your own family will have difficulties too if they are in the same environment.
The stigma of HIV is still as real today as it ever was as I was reminded by a friend to-day 18 months on from his diagnosis, (incidentally quite a devout christian) and this might actually be a way for the church to address some of that stigmatism and projected shame and bring the HIV+ human being into the fold. In some ways some feel like the lepers of your christs time, surely christians have moved on from treating people like that in 2000 years. Although as many christians put AIDS and GAYS in the same bag anyway, maybe I am not so surprised.
So in short, if the church can be grown up, confidential, non judgemental, supportive, inclusive and caring I would not see a problem with them having a role to play as the greatest thing many people need is support and community and for religious folk it is to their church and family they look for this in every other life changing issue, but if it is just an excuse to moralise and convert people or tell them their sex life is over because condoms are wrong, I think that people diagnosed with HIV+ have enough to worry about without all that baggage and guilt and it is better left to the professionals.
Fortunately we have a good HIV Support Centre here and good testing availability from the Rainbow Project and RVH GUM Clinic (and other Hospitals around Northern Ireland), 2 people are tested positive on average each week here so it is a real and continuing issue.
First, the link to the Will and Testament blog appears to have been removed from the main N.Ireland news page. This is inconvenient.
It is shocking that some churches simply brush the matter under the carpet, as it were. Perhaps they do not want to dispel the myth that HIV/Aids is some form of divine retribution. When HIV/Aids was first identified much bile poured forth from the mouths of many religionists.
I do not think many parishioners in the UK would be interested in having an HIV test (not many of the general public would feel the need to have one, either). But increased HIV testing in sub-Saharan Africa is a no-brainer.
The fact some Churches in the UK & Ireland turn a blind eye to the pandemic in prayers is truely shocking. There's not only the failure to acknowledge, but then there's the cutting cruelty of the moralising once the topic is brought to the fore. There are many people who have this condition because they've been raped, they've been born with it or they've trusted a spouse who hasn't been faithful. Not only do these people have to fight the condition, they have to fight peoples acidic preconceptions , predjudice and clumsy one-size-fits-all view of it. People who develop lifestyle related cancers- where's the moralising from the Churches there Here's a very touching clip I saw on Russell Howard's ´óÏó´«Ã½3 show a while back
mscracker, you ask a perfectly reasonable question. The suggestion is not that churches should act as medical teams, but that they should invite HIV charities and outreach workers to partner with them in raising awareness among church members. Part of that awareness-raising could involve offering worshippers a chance to have an HIV test on the church's premises. In some churches in the US and elsewhere, this has proven very effective -- pastors have had tests at the front of church during services. Many people with HIV still report that religiously-based stigma is one of their greatest challenges, which is why many HIV campaigners are asking church leaders to get involved.
Should churches run HIV clinics? I agree that, in this country, there are already good, professional clinics so there should be no reason for the church to need to run such clinics. What the church could be doing, especially where its congregation has members who are at risk of being HIV+, is to talk about HIV without embarrassment or judgement, and encourage people to ‘know their status’, and give them the information they need to go and get tested. The greatest service the church in the UK can do with their own members is to break the silence surrounding HIV, to raise awareness of and to challenge the stigma and discrimination with which so many people living with HIV have to contend (possibly even more so here in the UK than in some countries overseas where it is now more openly spoken about.) The Church of Scotland, since 2002, has had its own dedicated HIV/AIDS Project (the only denomination in Britain to do so?) This produces information, campaigning and worship resources, for use within congregations, and not just around World AIDS Day. It also raises money to support projects, both here and overseas – and many of these projects are about awareness-raising, encouraging testing, voluntary counselling, home-based care and income-generation for people living with HIV. It is also good to be able to support churches overseas in the training they give to pastors around HIV issues. We believe that the church has both a responsibility and a mandate to engage with HIV, and to work for justice and human rights for all. Recognising that churches haven’t always got it right in the past, we have to move forward to becoming HIV-competent churches, non-judgmental, inclusive, and courageous in speaking out against injustice. I like the analogy that the church has to have friendly feet (to accompany those living with HIV) – and along with that it needs a warm heart.
Churches and HIV. In many communities across Sub Saharan Africa, I have heard people say, 'HIV has made the church be the church.'What they mean is that the disastrous impact of HIV has helped the church dig deep, reach out from its own pain and loss, overcome its theological arguements to be a haven for compassion and action for those most affected by HIV. In many places where poverty is acute, government services are absent and the community has been ravaged by the epidemic,the church has had to step in. The people in the community expected it to do so. In some ways the church was forced to respond because it too was so devastated by HIV. Even more importantly the church cared too much to stay away. Instead it chose to do something overlapped with its own sense of purpose, its faith and calling. Assigning a role for the church is a luxury for us living in communities that are vastly different to those in Africa, where faith is such a critical aspect of everyday life and people expect faith institutions to be many things, a feeding centre, a counselling service, a health centre, a place that speaks out for justice etc. And why not, especially when the church feels called to and is able to step in, fill the gaps in services so that its people may have what they so need? So, let us step back and let the church be the church....
You may well be right about Sub Saharan Africa, but I fear that many of the churches here are too busy admonishing people and being self righteous to be concerned about anyone else's well being, especially the well being of those who are abominations to them simply for being what their god made them.
Take Pastorphilip posting above, he had a choice, he could either reach out and engage with people who need help and say what he could do for them or he could stand in his pulpit, aloof, and moralise and admonish them for not being as godlike as they should. Which did he chose ? I assume he is a spiritual leader of people so his choices provide the leadership to his congregation.
If churches are proselytizing then no there is no place for those businesses to in health care. It is a much better plan to donate to Doctors without Borders where reproductive service are available without any mandate other than to help communities.
Nowhere in my comment did I imply that we should not care for people who have HIV/AIDS. I was simply drawing attention to the moral dimension so many choose to ignore.
The ministry of the church is to teach the Bible, point people away from sinful lives to Jesus Christ and encourage them to live their lives for Him. That is the message all of us need to hear more than anything else.
Of course there is value in having an ambulance available at the foot of the cliff - but how much better to erect a fence at the top!
"That is the message all of us need to hear more than anything else."
Nah uh.
I'd like to hear 'life found on another world' or possibly 'congratulations, you've won the lottery', or perhaps most of all 'Hiya daddy, I love you'.
I know that your invisible sky despot felt a little guilty at condeming billions of people to eternal suffering so he valiantly sent an immortal zombie to be briefly inconvienced by death so that so long as you do what you're told and not use that free will, you won't burn forever, but instead get your brain removed and not care about anything ever again.
You made the choice to post moralising comments as opposed to offering help, support, understanding or explaining what your church does in this area of need, I drew conclusions from that choice.
As for your care being attached to your ministry I would say Lucy has it about right. I see little point in caring for people while simultaneously damaging them. If you cannot help people without ministering then you should only care for those who believe in your particular flavour of belief. Using peoples vulnerability in order to convert them is not very virtuous in my eyes.
I was reading a bit about natural law and came across some stuff from Thomas Aquinas which, although I have little time for much of the applications he puts his thoughts to, did say something relevant which boils down to.
Simply doing the right thing is not enough; to be truly moral one's motive must be right as well. For example, helping an old lady across the road (good exterior act) to impress someone (bad interior act) is wrong.
Helping the sick (good exterior act) to fulfil your ministry (bad interior act) is wrong.
Helping the sick (good exterior act) to ease their suffering (good interior act) is moral.
From a personal point of view if the price of care was to listen to you try and convince me I had sinned when I know full well I haven't I think I would reject that care. Your care comes with an unacceptable price. I do not lead a sinful life, I may not live like you want me to but it is not sinful or wrong in any of the ways you might like to categorise it.
The ministry of the church is to teach the Bible, point people away from sinful lives to Jesus Christ and encourage them to live their lives for Him. That is the message all of us need to hear more than anything else.
supercilious nonsense and simply shows that your motivation is not to help people with what they need help with but to serve your own needs to minister and convert people to your brand of belief. What is your reward for this ministry ?
Of course there is value in having an ambulance available at the foot of the cliff - but how much better to erect a fence at the top!
which is true only if it is possible and desirable to build the fence. What if the fence blotted out the beautiful view. Your logic would lead us all to live in bubbles, life is about living and that involves risk, life cannot be completely derisked without losing what makes life worthwhile.
In this instance your fence at the top of the cliff would be for people like me to live a life without committed loving relationships or any sexual contact (if I go to the catholic side I would not even be allowed to masturbate according to MCC). I regard that as a denial of myself and denying me what most people regard as the most fulfilling part of their lives simply to fit in with your fallacies. That is too high a price to pay so I will make do with the ambulance.
I also think that any deity who asked such a price (after having made me this way) would be one I would want nothing to do with anyway, there could be fewer things more cruel, twisted and sadistic.
Dear Will, in your article you should have mentioned that Catholic Church agencies provide a quarter of all HIV care in Africa. See page 15 of the booklet "The Pope in the UK", published by the Bishops Conference of England and Wales, here is the link- . Here in Western Europe we have a tendency to indulge ourselves with theoretical debates about sexual ethics, whilst Christians of many denominations in Africa are actually on the ground providing practical help and assistance. You rather flippantly suggest that worshippers at church get AIDS tests, but a more useful act would be for them to donate money to agencies such as Cafod and Christian Aid working in Africa. Best wishes, Jim
Since you bring up Catholism Jim. I wonder how many victims of abuse find themselves with HIV from an HIV positive priest. In the States, it's been shown priests are dying at a higher than average rate compared to the general population. I wonder what the statistics would be for the UK & Ireland. Would Cafod have such statistics?
It might be better if people donated their money to organisations which fought HIV transmission rather than made it worse by following the Vatican line.
As the Catholic church are the largest providers of aid, can you explain why they have never modified their strategy on condoms despite their abject failure to stem the course of the virus by persuasion rather than barrier.
As malaria kills more people in Africa than HIV / Aids perhaps our churches should have malaria clinics for the parishioners as well? Or would that not be politically correct enough for all the red ribbon wearers? I look forward with great interest to you covering the problenm of malaria in Africa with the gusto that you cover Aids Mr Crawley!
I cannot discount that possibility that political correctness is the motivator of topics such as these, but maybe the church needs to engage in a little self reflection in an attempt to ascertain whether or not our attitude towards one group of sufferers is different than it is towards another. Do we, perhaps, have more compassion for those we deem not to have erred morally?
I am not sure there is a huge malaria problem in N. Ireland to warrant malaria clinics in churches here. I am also not aware of any stigmatism attached to having malaria or in fact anyone who believes that malaria sufferers are abominations and are immoral sinners.
Perhaps you could enlighten me, if it really is so much of a problem here it needs to be raised. Would you happen to know the numbers of people living with Malaria and the annual death rates for the province.
You should also get in touch with the following websites as their data is incorrect as report global Malarial annual deaths at 850,000 and report deaths for the same period in Sub Saharan Africa alone at 1,300,000 and globally at almost 2 million.
These people cannot be allowed to get away with their blatant lies.
BTW what has wearing a red ribbon got to do with being politically correct or am I simply misreading the obvious love and concern for your fellow man (or Woman) from your post. I hope not as the other way of looking at it would make you seem an extremely shallow person.
Blogster,considering Hiv has been in the news recently with high profile stories from Pastor Skosana in South Africa, the Popes utterances on condoms & Hiv and December 1st being World Aids Day, it's perhaps natural the topic is being debated,especially since its such an emotionally charged, stigmatised issue when religion is added to the mix. Perhaps when it comes to April 25th, Religious leaders will bring the issue of Malaria to the fore. However to suggest those that wish to broach the subject or wear red ribbons as being politicially correct is spitting in the face of all those who have died from AIDs. That you feel it inappropriate for the subject to be given bandwidth in the same week awareness and understanding is being promoted is pretty odd & lacking in human compassion. Say's alot about what kind of human being you are. It's like saying, at Christmas, instead of thinking about Christ why aren't we talking about Mohammad.
Whats it going to do cause miracles and cure people?
Praying has been useless so far in all other ailments diseases and viruses.
Its the same old same old, the church lagging behind society and how to treat people in this case the gay community as the see it as a punishment on them. But the cant keep blaming them.
Jebus they are only wiseing up to evolution and noah's ark wasnt real,..well some of them.
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Comment number 1.
At 1st Dec 2010, BluesBerry wrote:Should churches run HIV clinics?
The answer depends on the church and its beliefs.
e.g. Some parts of the Catholic Church are opposed to education about, and promotion of, condoms for HIV prevention.
Pope Benedict XVI, making his first papal visit to Africa, said that condoms are not the answer in the fight against HIV/AIDS.
Priests resist condom use in the HIV community of Tanzania. In fact, teaching about condoms has been described by Roman Catholic bishops in Tanzania as ‘unacceptable’, in spite of the spread of HIV/AIDS in the
country. More than two million Tanzanians have been diagnosed HIV positive.
The Cardinal of Cameroon has endorsed the use of condoms as a protective measure against Aids, provided the couples using them are married. He said that if a partner in a marriage was infected with HIV, the use of condoms made sense. He also agreed with the Vatican view that fidelity and abstinence remained the best protection against HIV. Around 11% of Cameroon’s population are infected with HIV.
Several church leaders have now broken ranks with the Vatican. Cardinal Georges Cottier, the theologian of the papal household, said that the biblical commmandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ should be considered in cases where sexual activity involved a partner with HIV.
In Kenya … the Catholic Church condemned the use of condoms and any form of birth control; Protestant churches have been less harsh, but also condemn premarital sex, birth control, and condoms. In spite of this, most schools and local clinics, including those run by various churches, are conducting HIV prevention education and condom distribution programs. In some youth groups, HIV prevention methods are being discussed with the full knowledge of the church.
I think because of the disparity of beliefs, Government nurses and health educators should be the ones to discuss Aids and condoms, even distribute condoms.
As faith-based organisations involved in HIV prevention, may do more harm than good, especially when AIDS and condoms get all mixed up with sin and shame.
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Comment number 2.
At 1st Dec 2010, pastorphilip wrote:It seems that another 'World Aids Day' will pass without people being willing to face the moral issue at the heart of the crisis.
Christian Churches who wish to remain faithful to the Bible will teach that sexual relationships belong within marriage, and that going outside those God-given parameters risks many problems - including STD's and AIDS.
The way out of the AIDS crisis is not the widespread distribution of condoms, but the return to sexual intimacy within marriage, as the Creator intended.
Whatever other measures may be suggested, Christian love demands no less.
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Comment number 3.
At 1st Dec 2010, Dagsannr wrote:PastorPhillip,
"The way out of the AIDS crisis is not the widespread distribution of condoms, but the return to sexual intimacy within marriage, as the Creator intended."
(citation needed)
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Comment number 4.
At 1st Dec 2010, Dave wrote:pastorphilip,
I am not aware of any moral issue at the heart of the crisis. My understanding is that it is a virus and one with no definable intelligence with which to understand morals. You may have moral issues but that's for you to follow as no-one is suggesting you should go against your conscience or nature within the law. You are surely not suggesting that you are a special case in that freedom.
Also if you are going to require sexual intimacy within marriage, by extension (as we live in a fair and equal society) you must be advocating that marriage is open to all who can legally form loving sexual relationships. Anything else would be discriminatory and so be legally challenged.
As for the creator chappie, as you guys can't even agree on who he is, or when he did his creating bit, we can't really rely on your various takes on what he intended, or that he actually exists.
So until such times as you come up with any proof for anything you say as regards your creator chappie, I will continue to advocate and use condoms as advised by the medical profession and the Rainbow Sector professionals who know a bit more about viruses and protection than the average Pastor. Remember, neither HIV nor condoms existed when your stories were written.
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Comment number 5.
At 1st Dec 2010, mscracker wrote:I'm puzzled why churches might need to staff HIV testing clinics? That service is readily available here in the States at any health dept.Is the situation different in the UK?
The Missionaries of Charity provide care for those who suffer from AIDS, as do other religious groups.One of my children has volunteered at an AIDS hospice.It requires a deep commitment beyond wearing a red ribbon once a year.
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Comment number 6.
At 1st Dec 2010, Dave wrote:To the actual question,
I think some churches could cope with it, some couldn't. My concern is not them being able to do the test, there are fast (5 Minute) kits which are pretty simple to administer, it is could they cope with the counselling.
Could they offer a confidential and non judgemental testing environment to encourage people to be tested without fear of people asking why they needed to be tested or using it as an opportunity to moralise (like Pastor Philip who couldn't let such a serious issue pass by without taking the opportunity to have a good preach). If someone comes in and gets a positive result can they be there for them without the "told you so dance" (PastorPhilip again) and some advanced religious hand wringing.
Could they then offer that person the support they will need when living with HIV as they access all the services and treatments they will require. It's too late to moralise anyway, just get on with doing what that person needs most. It's what you do for other people with challenges in their lives.
I would love to think they could because, much as I personally see no value in religion, some people get a lot of strength and comfort from it. If the church was able to see the person (their friend) and their needs as opposed to the circumstances then the for the HIV+ Christian etc the ability to be supported within their extended "family" would be of great value. I see what happens when believers with HIV are actively rejected by their congregations either directly (shunned) or indirectly (ostracised by doctrine and preaching). It is like a double whammy, your diagnosis and then cut off from were you feel most supported. And if your church feels you are beyond the pale, your own family will have difficulties too if they are in the same environment.
The stigma of HIV is still as real today as it ever was as I was reminded by a friend to-day 18 months on from his diagnosis, (incidentally quite a devout christian) and this might actually be a way for the church to address some of that stigmatism and projected shame and bring the HIV+ human being into the fold. In some ways some feel like the lepers of your christs time, surely christians have moved on from treating people like that in 2000 years. Although as many christians put AIDS and GAYS in the same bag anyway, maybe I am not so surprised.
So in short, if the church can be grown up, confidential, non judgemental, supportive, inclusive and caring I would not see a problem with them having a role to play as the greatest thing many people need is support and community and for religious folk it is to their church and family they look for this in every other life changing issue, but if it is just an excuse to moralise and convert people or tell them their sex life is over because condoms are wrong, I think that people diagnosed with HIV+ have enough to worry about without all that baggage and guilt and it is better left to the professionals.
Fortunately we have a good HIV Support Centre here and good testing availability from the Rainbow Project and RVH GUM Clinic (and other Hospitals around Northern Ireland), 2 people are tested positive on average each week here so it is a real and continuing issue.
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Comment number 7.
At 1st Dec 2010, newlach wrote:First, the link to the Will and Testament blog appears to have been removed from the main N.Ireland news page. This is inconvenient.
It is shocking that some churches simply brush the matter under the carpet, as it were. Perhaps they do not want to dispel the myth that HIV/Aids is some form of divine retribution. When HIV/Aids was first identified much bile poured forth from the mouths of many religionists.
I do not think many parishioners in the UK would be interested in having an HIV test (not many of the general public would feel the need to have one, either). But increased HIV testing in sub-Saharan Africa is a no-brainer.
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Comment number 8.
At 2nd Dec 2010, Dave wrote:David Cameron interestingly makes a related point in his statement for
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Comment number 9.
At 2nd Dec 2010, Ryan_ wrote:The fact some Churches in the UK & Ireland turn a blind eye to the pandemic in prayers is truely shocking. There's not only the failure to acknowledge, but then there's the cutting cruelty of the moralising once the topic is brought to the fore. There are many people who have this condition because they've been raped, they've been born with it or they've trusted a spouse who hasn't been faithful. Not only do these people have to fight the condition, they have to fight peoples acidic preconceptions , predjudice and clumsy one-size-fits-all view of it.
People who develop lifestyle related cancers- where's the moralising from the Churches there
Here's a very touching clip I saw on Russell Howard's ´óÏó´«Ã½3 show a while back
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Comment number 10.
At 2nd Dec 2010, Will_Crawley wrote:mscracker, you ask a perfectly reasonable question. The suggestion is not that churches should act as medical teams, but that they should invite HIV charities and outreach workers to partner with them in raising awareness among church members. Part of that awareness-raising could involve offering worshippers a chance to have an HIV test on the church's premises. In some churches in the US and elsewhere, this has proven very effective -- pastors have had tests at the front of church during services. Many people with HIV still report that religiously-based stigma is one of their greatest challenges, which is why many HIV campaigners are asking church leaders to get involved.
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Comment number 11.
At 2nd Dec 2010, Marjorie Clark wrote:Should churches run HIV clinics?
I agree that, in this country, there are already good, professional clinics so there should be no reason for the church to need to run such clinics. What the church could be doing, especially where its congregation has members who are at risk of being HIV+, is to talk about HIV without embarrassment or judgement, and encourage people to ‘know their status’, and give them the information they need to go and get tested.
The greatest service the church in the UK can do with their own members is to break the silence surrounding HIV, to raise awareness of and to challenge the stigma and discrimination with which so many people living with HIV have to contend (possibly even more so here in the UK than in some countries overseas where it is now more openly spoken about.) The Church of Scotland, since 2002, has had its own dedicated HIV/AIDS Project (the only denomination in Britain to do so?) This produces information, campaigning and worship resources, for use within congregations, and not just around World AIDS Day. It also raises money to support projects, both here and overseas – and many of these projects are about awareness-raising, encouraging testing, voluntary counselling, home-based care and income-generation for people living with HIV. It is also good to be able to support churches overseas in the training they give to pastors around HIV issues.
We believe that the church has both a responsibility and a mandate to engage with HIV, and to work for justice and human rights for all. Recognising that churches haven’t always got it right in the past, we have to move forward to becoming HIV-competent churches, non-judgmental, inclusive, and courageous in speaking out against injustice. I like the analogy that the church has to have friendly feet (to accompany those living with HIV) – and along with that it needs a warm heart.
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Comment number 12.
At 2nd Dec 2010, VeenaOSullivan wrote:Churches and HIV.
In many communities across Sub Saharan Africa, I have heard people say, 'HIV has made the church be the church.'What they mean is that the disastrous impact of HIV has helped the church dig deep, reach out from its own pain and loss, overcome its theological arguements to be a haven for compassion and action for those most affected by HIV. In many places where poverty is acute, government services are absent and the community has been ravaged by the epidemic,the church has had to step in. The people in the community expected it to do so. In some ways the church was forced to respond because it too was so devastated by HIV. Even more importantly the church cared too much to stay away. Instead it chose to do something overlapped with its own sense of purpose, its faith and calling.
Assigning a role for the church is a luxury for us living in communities that are vastly different to those in Africa, where faith is such a critical aspect of everyday life and people expect faith institutions to be many things, a feeding centre, a counselling service, a health centre, a place that speaks out for justice etc. And why not, especially when the church feels called to and is able to step in, fill the gaps in services so that its people may have what they so need?
So, let us step back and let the church be the church....
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Comment number 13.
At 3rd Dec 2010, Dave wrote:VeenaOSullivan,
You may well be right about Sub Saharan Africa, but I fear that many of the churches here are too busy admonishing people and being self righteous to be concerned about anyone else's well being, especially the well being of those who are abominations to them simply for being what their god made them.
Take Pastorphilip posting above, he had a choice, he could either reach out and engage with people who need help and say what he could do for them or he could stand in his pulpit, aloof, and moralise and admonish them for not being as godlike as they should. Which did he chose ? I assume he is a spiritual leader of people so his choices provide the leadership to his congregation.
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Comment number 14.
At 3rd Dec 2010, LucyQ wrote:If churches are proselytizing then no there is no place for those businesses to in health care. It is a much better plan to donate to Doctors without Borders where reproductive service are available without any mandate other than to help communities.
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Comment number 15.
At 3rd Dec 2010, pastorphilip wrote:Dave,
Nowhere in my comment did I imply that we should not care for people who have HIV/AIDS. I was simply drawing attention to the moral dimension so many choose to ignore.
The ministry of the church is to teach the Bible, point people away from sinful lives to Jesus Christ and encourage them to live their lives for Him. That is the message all of us need to hear more than anything else.
Of course there is value in having an ambulance available at the foot of the cliff - but how much better to erect a fence at the top!
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Comment number 16.
At 3rd Dec 2010, Dagsannr wrote:"That is the message all of us need to hear more than anything else."
Nah uh.
I'd like to hear 'life found on another world' or possibly 'congratulations, you've won the lottery', or perhaps most of all 'Hiya daddy, I love you'.
I know that your invisible sky despot felt a little guilty at condeming billions of people to eternal suffering so he valiantly sent an immortal zombie to be briefly inconvienced by death so that so long as you do what you're told and not use that free will, you won't burn forever, but instead get your brain removed and not care about anything ever again.
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Comment number 17.
At 3rd Dec 2010, Dave wrote:Pastorphilip,
You made the choice to post moralising comments as opposed to offering help, support, understanding or explaining what your church does in this area of need, I drew conclusions from that choice.
As for your care being attached to your ministry I would say Lucy has it about right. I see little point in caring for people while simultaneously damaging them. If you cannot help people without ministering then you should only care for those who believe in your particular flavour of belief. Using peoples vulnerability in order to convert them is not very virtuous in my eyes.
I was reading a bit about natural law and came across some stuff from Thomas Aquinas which, although I have little time for much of the applications he puts his thoughts to, did say something relevant which boils down to.
Simply doing the right thing is not enough; to be truly moral one's motive must be right as well. For example, helping an old lady across the road (good exterior act) to impress someone (bad interior act) is wrong.
Helping the sick (good exterior act) to fulfil your ministry (bad interior act) is wrong.
Helping the sick (good exterior act) to ease their suffering (good interior act) is moral.
From a personal point of view if the price of care was to listen to you try and convince me I had sinned when I know full well I haven't I think I would reject that care. Your care comes with an unacceptable price. I do not lead a sinful life, I may not live like you want me to but it is not sinful or wrong in any of the ways you might like to categorise it.
The ministry of the church is to teach the Bible, point people away from sinful lives to Jesus Christ and encourage them to live their lives for Him. That is the message all of us need to hear more than anything else.
supercilious nonsense and simply shows that your motivation is not to help people with what they need help with but to serve your own needs to minister and convert people to your brand of belief. What is your reward for this ministry ?
Of course there is value in having an ambulance available at the foot of the cliff - but how much better to erect a fence at the top!
which is true only if it is possible and desirable to build the fence. What if the fence blotted out the beautiful view. Your logic would lead us all to live in bubbles, life is about living and that involves risk, life cannot be completely derisked without losing what makes life worthwhile.
In this instance your fence at the top of the cliff would be for people like me to live a life without committed loving relationships or any sexual contact (if I go to the catholic side I would not even be allowed to masturbate according to MCC). I regard that as a denial of myself and denying me what most people regard as the most fulfilling part of their lives simply to fit in with your fallacies. That is too high a price to pay so I will make do with the ambulance.
I also think that any deity who asked such a price (after having made me this way) would be one I would want nothing to do with anyway, there could be fewer things more cruel, twisted and sadistic.
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Comment number 18.
At 4th Dec 2010, Jim Arnauld wrote:Dear Will, in your article you should have mentioned that Catholic Church agencies provide a quarter of all HIV care in Africa. See page 15 of the booklet "The Pope in the UK", published by the Bishops Conference of England and Wales, here is the link- . Here in Western Europe we have a tendency to indulge ourselves with theoretical debates about sexual ethics, whilst Christians of many denominations in Africa are actually on the ground providing practical help and assistance. You rather flippantly suggest that worshippers at church get AIDS tests, but a more useful act would be for them to donate money to agencies such as Cafod and Christian Aid working in Africa. Best wishes, Jim
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Comment number 19.
At 4th Dec 2010, Ryan_ wrote:Since you bring up Catholism Jim. I wonder how many victims of abuse find themselves with HIV from an HIV positive priest. In the States, it's been shown priests are dying at a higher than average rate compared to the general population. I wonder what the statistics would be for the UK & Ireland. Would Cafod have such statistics?
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Comment number 20.
At 4th Dec 2010, Ryan_ wrote:Or maybe the Catholic Herald would be privy to such information?
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Comment number 21.
At 4th Dec 2010, Dave wrote:Jim Arnauld,
It might be better if people donated their money to organisations which fought HIV transmission rather than made it worse by following the Vatican line.
As the Catholic church are the largest providers of aid, can you explain why they have never modified their strategy on condoms despite their abject failure to stem the course of the virus by persuasion rather than barrier.
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Comment number 22.
At 4th Dec 2010, Will_Crawley wrote:Jim says: Dear Will, in your article you should have mentioned that Catholic Church agencies provide a quarter of all HIV care in Africa.
Jim -- I've made thus point on air and in other articles a number of times.
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Comment number 23.
At 5th Dec 2010, Blogster wrote:As malaria kills more people in Africa than HIV / Aids perhaps our churches should have malaria clinics for the parishioners as well? Or would that not be politically correct enough for all the red ribbon wearers? I look forward with great interest to you covering the problenm of malaria in Africa with the gusto that you cover Aids Mr Crawley!
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Comment number 24.
At 5th Dec 2010, PeterM wrote:Blogster
I cannot discount that possibility that political correctness is the motivator of topics such as these, but maybe the church needs to engage in a little self reflection in an attempt to ascertain whether or not our attitude towards one group of sufferers is different than it is towards another. Do we, perhaps, have more compassion for those we deem not to have erred morally?
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Comment number 25.
At 5th Dec 2010, Dave wrote:Blogster,
I am not sure there is a huge malaria problem in N. Ireland to warrant malaria clinics in churches here. I am also not aware of any stigmatism attached to having malaria or in fact anyone who believes that malaria sufferers are abominations and are immoral sinners.
Perhaps you could enlighten me, if it really is so much of a problem here it needs to be raised. Would you happen to know the numbers of people living with Malaria and the annual death rates for the province.
You should also get in touch with the following websites as their data is incorrect as report global Malarial annual deaths at 850,000 and report deaths for the same period in Sub Saharan Africa alone at 1,300,000 and globally at almost 2 million.
These people cannot be allowed to get away with their blatant lies.
BTW what has wearing a red ribbon got to do with being politically correct or am I simply misreading the obvious love and concern for your fellow man (or Woman) from your post. I hope not as the other way of looking at it would make you seem an extremely shallow person.
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Comment number 26.
At 5th Dec 2010, Ryan_ wrote:Blogster,considering Hiv has been in the news recently with high profile stories from Pastor Skosana in South Africa, the Popes utterances on condoms & Hiv and December 1st being World Aids Day, it's perhaps natural the topic is being debated,especially since its such an emotionally charged, stigmatised issue when religion is added to the mix.
Perhaps when it comes to April 25th, Religious leaders will bring the issue of Malaria to the fore. However to suggest those that wish to broach the subject or wear red ribbons as being politicially correct is spitting in the face of all those who have died from AIDs. That you feel it inappropriate for the subject to be given bandwidth in the same week awareness and understanding is being promoted is pretty odd & lacking in human compassion. Say's alot about what kind of human being you are. It's like saying, at Christmas, instead of thinking about Christ why aren't we talking about Mohammad.
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Comment number 27.
At 5th Dec 2010, Laird Biffa of Soggywarts wrote:Why acknowledge HIV/AIDS in any prayer?
Whats it going to do cause miracles and cure people?
Praying has been useless so far in all other ailments diseases and viruses.
Its the same old same old, the church lagging behind society and how to treat people in this case the gay community as the see it as a punishment on them. But the cant keep blaming them.
Jebus they are only wiseing up to evolution and noah's ark wasnt real,..well some of them.
Hi Dave btw.
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