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It is recognized in the report that people are leaving the Church and this document is an attempt to stop the flow.

"In the past year, more Christians than ever before have left the Catholic Church."

The simple truth is that more people are seeing how the Catholic Church treats women unfairly and gays with contempt. These people are saying "no" to unjustified discrimination and leaving. They also read about paedophile priests and wonder whether women priests and married priests would help clean the "filth" of paedophilia from the Catholic Church.

It seems we keep going down the same road here.
Where are the statistics on Catholics who are faithful to the magisterium & have large families to pass the Faith down to?
If you look at the individuals who leave the Church, how many have children & among those, how many have 3,4 or more children?
Numbers make a difference but so does reproduction.
Here's something re Catholic populations:
"VATICAN CITY, APRIL 27, 2010 (Zenit.org).- The Vatican announced today that its publishing house has released a new edition of the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, comprising information from 2000 to 2008, including that the number of Catholics in the world is now 1.16 billion.

Over these nine years, the Catholic presence in the world has grown from 1.045 billion in 2000 to 1.166 billion in 2008, an increase of 11.54%. Considering the statistics in detail, numbers in Africa grew by 33%, in Europe they remained generally stable (an increase of 1.17%), while in Asia they increased by 15.61%, in Oceania by 11.39% and in America by 10.93%. As a percentage of the total population, European Catholics represented 26.8% in 2000 and 24.31% in 2008. In America and Oceania they have remained stable, and increased slightly in Asia."
And celibacy is simply a discipline, not doctrine.It can change.Eastern Rite Catholic priests can marry before ordination.

mscracker

I dont see the purpose in trying to challenge the fact that in the US and Europe the Catholic Church is haemorrhaging. Even before the abuse crisis the numbers were plumetting. Priests, religious and ordinary Catholics have walked away. It is a fact. The reasons for it will be argued.

Even in the Third World where the numbers are up, financially, it will not be enough to sustain The Vatican and the present structure. (Thankfully.)

Even Benny himself has acknowledged this with his - "The Church must grow smaller in order to purify itself" - comment.

There are many things that I have issues with the Roman Catholic Church. one of them is that if a minister of a Protestant denomination who is married and converts to Catholicsm he is accepted as a priest, yet a person who is born a Roman Catholic and becomes a priest can't marry. It seems crazy.

Tully

Its not crazy, its actually extremely deliberate and thought out. These ministers are being accepted into the church because in general they are unhappy about their own church ordaining women and gay men.

On those two points alone the Vatican will welcome them with open arms.

I think you are right romejellybeen. I have myself would have issues in my own Protestant denomination, but I would never convert to Roman Catholism because of my vies.

mscracker

Here's a piece on the state of our church at the moment. Its not as enthusiastic as your outlook.

They'll probably get some new Syllabus of Errors in response. Papa Benny is of similar stock to old Pius IX.

It's good to read those points and see influential people put their names to it - reassuring perhaps knowing others have similar feelings & that I'm not stuck in some wierd parallel universe. Also good to know there are people inside the Catholic Church structure who believe in these proposals too

The fact of the matter is this, if I had been born Roman Catholic and became a priet I couldn't have mmarried, yet a married pastor or minister converting to the Catholic Church would be accepted as a priest.If I was in that situation of being born into a Catholic becomind a priest, not being able to marry, yet seeing marrled converts being accepted as priest I would feel pretty miffed and would probably have resigned from the priesthood. THe Catholc church s trying to defend the indefensible.

Presumably, these converts are free to use whatever contraception they want?

That could be 1 inerpritation you coul put on it among others which shall be mameless.

Newlach/Tully

I think issues such as contraception are just used by the hierarchs as a smoke screen. What they are really interested in is power and control.

What are the biggest issues for the Catholic Church over the last decades? Contraception, homosexuality, ordination of women, sex...

Hardly even mentioned in the gospels. Yet issues like justice, poverty, indifference to the plight of the poor, religious intolerence, self righteousness.... are hardly mentioned by these same 'Christians.'

Its all about power.

RJB, with all due respect, what isn't? Whether it be rulings on priesthood, declaration of budget cuts or refusal to give prisoners the vote, pretty much any issue of any importance beyond subjective evaluation is about Power.

What's interesting here is not so much that Catholicism is looking to retain power, but that it is trying to consolidate it in the public domain. It's thinking not just "how can we keep what power we have" but also "how can we regroup in such a way as to politically represent that power effectively".

That's an interesting strategic bit of thinking. Its decisions with regards to its internal structure and the liberties of its members will affect the long-term retention of its current power, and I'm curious to see whether its choices will leave it vulnerable to attack from secular considerations, whether it will successfully regain the moral high ground or whether it will retreat into self-imposed isolation.

yawn, yawn, yawn - German liberal theologians condemn Pope, dog bites man, Rome JB hates his own Church. Any chance of something new?

MCC

HE HE HE! Wondered how long it would take you.

I dont think I hate anyone, especially my own Church. I do admit to experiencing some contempt for people who have a very narrow view of church though.

However, it is good to see German people speaking out against right wing dictatorships.

My broad view sees the so called "institutional church" and the People of God as the one body of Christ - you always seem to be dividing them.

@7. romejellybeen:
Thank you. I've looked at the NCR a few times through links on this blog.I don't know anyone locally who reads that publication but assume it has a wider folllowing somewhere else in America.
If I was more skilled at providing links I could direct you to mainstream or conservative Catholic publications with quite opposite viewpoints.
I don't think that's really the point, though.I believe the statistics do not support a shrinking Catholic Church, but quite the opposite.

mccamleyc,

If it makes you feel any better, I have exactly the same views of the Catholic hierarchy as I do the rebellious German element or, indeed, the Anglian, Methodist, Baptist, Muslim, Sikh,Grand Poobah or any religous hierarchy.

I'd hate you to think I single out the Catholic church maliciously. I'm quite inclusive in my critism.

# 17 MCC

Dont think you ever heard me telling people to get out of our Church, something you have done with monotonous regularity on here. I would say I want the best for our Church and that means sometimes having to deal with situations which are unpleasant.

I would question the loyalty of people who want to sweep things under the carpet.

mscracker

I know many conservative sites so no need to supply links. Fact, the number of priests and the number of parishes - especially in the US - have plummeted.

If your point is that a conservative catholic church will flourish, you are mistaken. Once Catholics realised that they cant be terrorised by threats of Hell, the game was up. We either engage with our times, with all the questions which arise and all the challenges set before us, or we go under. Simple as.

Mscracker - think NCR stands for "no Catholic readers"

So RJB you don't believe in hell - or probably you don't believe anyone's going there.

I don't rejoice in anyone leaving the Church - just want people to be honest about what membership entails and wonder why people who don't believe what the Church believes persist in staying. If you don't believe the Church's moral teaching, or sacramental teaching, or dogma on hell, or infallibility of the Pope, it just seems extraordinary to me to stay in an institution that will not be changing to reflect your views. I don't mean "you" or "your" personally - I'm speaking generally about people who dissent from Church teaching. Same applies to other organisations and Churches - for example, I don't think you can stay in an Anglican church if you don't support the ordination of women.

@ mccamleyc :
"Mscracker - think NCR stands for "no Catholic readers" "


Yes, in our part of the woods that would be correct.I've never even seen a copy of it except through links on this site.

@RJB:
I can't find statistics to show American Catholic populations are decreasing, quite the opposite really, but I actually saw this in the NCR:
"US Catholic parishes growing in size and diversity "

This may also reflect smaller inner-city parishes which have been consolidated into one larger parish.That has been a trend since the move to the suburbs in the mid-20th Century.Except in certain rural areas,American Catholics have tended to be urban but this has been changing & the parish structures reflect it.
I appreciate your viewpoint from Europe but I think you might be quite surprised to visit one of our local parishes.We have a thriving number of seminarians,many excellent Catholic schools- both private & parochial, & devout parishoners -imperfect, but faithful to the magisterium.And if that means conservative, then yes, I guess my point is that a conservative Church does flourish here in America.And it's growing.But I would think that the essence of being Catholic is being faithful to the successor of St. Peter and that is neither liberal nor conservative-just Catholic.

Mccamley,from my perspective- as someone whose family are & have been traditionally Catholic (With the exception of my parents & a few hushed up Anglicans) RJB has been very effective at neutralising alot of my antipathy towards Catholicism. His views might not tow the party line, but he really does a tremendous amount of good at engaging with mainstream views & articulating a much more humane, heartfelt Catholicism. This may be ironic to you Mccamley but Catholicism, in Europe at least, has more chance of being understood in the all encompassing definition of the word than the cliquey, closed world Institutional Catholicism has the ability to express. PaulR makes a good point when he says "whether it will successfully regain the moral high ground or whether it will retreat into self-imposed isolation."
The only way to reach a moral high ground is with RJB's approach, yet it's the retreat from modern society down into self-imposed isolation which the current leadership has its satnav set to

mscracker

I read the piece on NCR about the Catholic population in the US - by a Catholic Agency.

It states clearly that the number of priests is down 50%. The reason it doesnt show up so badly re- the number of parishes, is because so many parishes have been closed or amalgamated.

It also makes the point that numbers of parishioners are being kept up by an increase in the Spanish speaking population. However, if you are correct and numbers are increasing, Benny wont be pleased. He wants the church to grow smaller in order to "purify itself." (Maybe he's thinking of clearing out the abusers, the enablers, Opus Dei, the Legionaires, SPX, and the Vatican Bank. That would certainly make the Church grow smaller and, God, would it purify it.)

"The essence of being a Catholic is being faithful to the successor of St Peter."

Nae! That's the essence of being religious. The essence of being Catholic is to be faithful to Jesus Christ. (And that may very well entail standing against the successor of St Peter depending on what era you happen to live in.) How 'faithful' were you to John XXIII?

Jesus wasnt really into Shamanism but it would appear that our present hierarchs are obsessed with it. I'll stick to the gospel.

MCC # 23

"So RJB you dont believe in hell - or probably you dont believe that anyone's going there."

(Are you the person who writes into 'Points of View' each week and always begins the letter with, "Why, oh why, oh why....?")

MCC, this aint the Inquisition. I really have no idea whether Hell exists or not. I have no investment in it. However, if you tie me to a post, surround me with firewood and threaten to burn me alive, then, yes I'll tell you that I certainly do believe in Hell.

Does that help you?

Dear RJB:
Thanks.I think I also spoke on the issue of parishes being consolidated & that being more a result of changing demographics: urban to suburban, than shrinking Catholic population as a whole.
A great many American Catholics are of Hispanic origin & I think that is a good thing.
I saw this online at the Catholic News Service, dated Feb. 11,2011: "Vatican statistics show overall increase in number of priests"
The article suggests that while worldwide priests are increasing, there was a 7% decrease in American diocesan priests & a 21% decrease in American priests of religious orders.
I think you will find similar figures for rural health practitioners & other vocations that while having huge spiritual & humanitarian value, have less wordly status & monetary payback.We've lost some of our bearings as a society, for sure.But as other posters have shared, some religious orders are on the increase.Hopefully rural doctors, dentists & midwives will also find their ranks filled by young people who care more about others than increasing their stock portfolio.Perhaps we will find our way back home.Sacrifice doesn't play well in the modern world.

MCC - what if the church is wrong?? what if hell after death does not exist?? (hell on earth does exist for many) - what if there are no fires in hell - but the heavens may be full of fire - except it is the fire of divine love awaiting all?? What if God is sooooooo loving that he does not condemn or punish or even judge anyone - truly boundless love?? What if all the condemnation/judgement/punishment is purely a human construct and absolutely nothing to do with God?? What if all this self-flagellation/criticism/judgement etc is merely keeping you/humanity separate from knowing God to be so?

mscracker

"Vatican statistics show overall increase in number of priests." Doesnt it even cross your mind to query the source? That's 'Turkeys vote against Christmas' material.

"Some religious orders are on the increase." And at the top of that list is Maciel's Legionaires. Frightening, eh?

"Sacrifice doesnt play well in the modern world." Is that the world where two thirds are living in poverty? Most of the worlds population are making huge sacrifices every single day. But you are probably talking about "family" values.

Dear RJB:
Where more poverty exists there are also more vocations.It's primarily in North America & Europe that we are less willing to give of ourselves to others.I am glad there are exceptions.

God bless!

mscracker

When I worked in Africa the seminaries were full. Ordination was a path out of poverty and for many, a ticket to Europe. I'd guess its the same where ever there is poverty.

Btw, did you know that just prior to both World Wars the seminaries were full too? Busiest ever. Not that priests and trainee priests being exempt from conscription had anything to do with it.

Dear RJB,
I'd rather look at the figures with goodwill & optimism.I've been taught that as Christians we are first to assume the sincerity of other's intentions.And my experience with faithful priests from Africa has only deepened that assumption.
And you are correct indeed, that as Catholics we are first faithful to Christ, but that is true for all who profess Christianity.In fact, other Christians often put us to shame in the faithful way they live out their lives according to their beliefs.My Mennonite friends' lives are a daily witness to charity,peace, & forgiveness.But as Catholics we are distinct in our faithfulness as well to the successor of St. Peter.

romejellybeen wrote:

"When I worked in Africa the seminaries were full. Ordination was a path out of poverty and for many, a ticket to Europe. I'd guess its the same where ever there is poverty."

Excellent point! There are those who wish to spread the word because they see it as a way out of poverty. There are parents who see religion as a way out of poverty for their children. Religionists ruthlessly exploit the poverty of others to shore up their own side - the few who make it keep the dream alive for others.

"There are those who wish to spread the word because they see it as a way out of poverty. There are parents who see religion as a way out of poverty for their children. Religionists ruthlessly exploit the poverty of others to shore up their own side - the few who make it keep the dream alive for others."

The rest of the world uses capitalism for this. The difference is with capitalism you can get tangible, material benefits. Religion offers no such promise, just an ambigious and unprovable suggestion of a better life after death.

@36. Natman:
Religion offers intangibles in this life, too: peace,joy,faith,hope, charity, patience,and more.
Most things of real value are intangible & I think perhaps even atheists would agree on that.What we might differ on would be whether we can take them with us when we die.

mscracker,

"Religion offers intangibles in this life, too: peace,joy,faith,hope, charity, patience,and more."

Ah, but you can get those intanglibles without religion too. There's no monopoly on virtues like that.

"Most things of real value are intangible & I think perhaps even atheists would agree on that.What we might differ on would be whether we can take them with us when we die."

Depends on your definition of real value. I savour and enjoy such intangibles, but it's all purely subjective. Intangibles I enjoy will differ greatly from someone else's. If you've evidence that anything aside from decay and oblivion awaits after death I'd be happy to consider it. I consider leaving a legacy is a much more worthwhile way of ensuring part of me remains after I die than clinging to hope that death isn't the end.

@Natman:
Perhaps the key word here is "virtues." There are intangible things that are not virtuous & subjectively enjoyed by those lacking a working conscience.A visit to any correctional facility will provide examples of individuals who find pleasure in inflicting pain & abuse on their victims.And as often pointed out in these blogs, religious orders, schools, Boy Scout troops, etc all have their share of individuals who enjoy taking advantage of the vulnerable in their charge.
Greed, envy, anger are all intangibles, too & are enjoyed & savoured by some as well.
But I believe, as a Christian, that we all have a conscience given to us by our Creator,even the sociopath who is said not to possess a conscience.I think we can choose to not listen to our conscience or through pathology lose connection to it.And I think those who profess no belief in God are still acting upon their conscience in their day to day lives.The atheists I've known are decent folk- not unpleasant, antisocial nor misfits.And certainly not evil.But I do sense dissapointment.

mscracker,

"The atheists I've known are decent folk- not unpleasant, antisocial nor misfits.And certainly not evil.But I do sense dissapointment"

Maybe you are looking for it, or maybe they are just looking at you with sympathy.

mscracker,

I'm with Dave, don't project your feelings onto others. Unless, of course, you really are psychic.

"And I think those who profess no belief in God are still acting upon their conscience in their day to day lives"

I don't profess no belief in God, I don't think gods exist. There's a slight but important difference, it's the same as accusing you of believing in all gods, or just one specific one.

My conscience helps me with moral decisions but it's not the be all and end all. I suggest (as I have suggested to others) you research the concept of informed consent to see what I think a responsible moral grounding is.

@ Dave:
You're probably right, but that's what I suspect I see.But we all regard & interpret things through various filters.

I don't agree with first 2 key issues here. First, these priests took their oath of celibacy when they were ordained as priests. And even before they were ordained, they were given enough time outside the walls of seminaries to really think if this is really their vocation. So these priests knew what they were getting into. Yes, we are living in the age of technology & a lot have changed. These affected the values & culture of people. But nevertheless, there are things which cannot be changed & this is one of them.
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