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Even Jesus' prediction that "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" (Matthew ch 24 v 34) apparently turned out to be wrong, so if *he* couldn't predict it, what chance has Harold Camping?

I'm not worried about Harold Camping; he is, despite being well funded and vocal, fairly unimportant. Like it's said in the posting, those who claim the return of Christ, or aliens or whoever, turn up on a regular basis, we've still the hoohah over 2012 to come yet.

Funny how people like Camping, who announce a highly improbable biblical apocalypse based on some very dodgy mathematics on a translation of a highly suspect book, get headlines all over the world, thousands devoting their money and time and are listened to time and time again.

Get an astronomer who talks about gamma ray bursts from nearby supernovas or sit and watch as a billion tons of rock and ice slam into a planet that is, in effect, right next door and people go 'meh' and give the money from NASA to feeding Pakistan's starving minorities whilst their governments spend billions on nuclear weapons.

Baffling.

I made sure I had a last chocolate doughnut on Saturday morning & asked my son to make his bed so he wouldn't leave an untidy house if we were raptured.
:)

Harold Camping's 21st Oct prediction MUST be Plan C, as before 21st May he guaranteed that there was no Plan B. Unfortunately I'm going to be busy on 21st Oct so I'd be grateful if he could give his Plan D prediction early. Also,If he could announce the dates for Plans D - Z now that'd be appreciated. Especially if he could avoid public holidays and other significant days off. Keep it to office hours will you Hal!

And BTW, Not returning any of the $100m spent on advertising, some of it given by people who sold everything, and not giving away any of his own wealth before 21st Oct. Nice touch. Very classy.

Much as I deplore the antics of Harold Camping (and feel quite sorry for most of his followers), and much as I despise the way he is trying to wriggle out of his failed prophecy, yet at least he asserted something that was easily empirically falsifiable. The same cannot be said of those confident 'secular' predictions which are just as audacious, but rather more open to 'interpretation', such as the expected death of religious belief, or indeed the claims concerning climate change (and, of course, there are views relating to the distant past - before recorded human history - which are so speculative as to be, in effect, unfalsifiable).

Once all the mockery has dissipated, Camping's antics might be a salutary lesson to all those - theist or atheist - who are overly confident with their crystal ball. The relentless march of secularism - the death of religion - naturalism being able to explain everything etc. - all these predictions are, quite frankly, as unsubstantiated and as much based on wishful thinking as anything Harold Camping has come out with.

In fact, secularism is deeply rooted in a certain view of history and the future. How many times do we hear the phrase "have such people forgotten this is the 21st century" when criticising those who express ethical views which are considered to be 'outdated'? This assertion of the relationship between chronology and morality only makes sense on the basis of a particular theory of the march of history. The words 'progress' and 'progressive' are bandied around, as if we are supposed to know what they really mean, and their use reveals a belief (whether stated overtly or more subtly) that history is inexorably moving in a certain direction.

So to hear secularists criticising Christians for having a dogmatic view about the future seems bizarre, to say the least.

What is the name of the historian interviewed?

Churches sometimes offer their members worked-out eschatological schemes -- from "premillennialism" and "postmillennialism" to "amillennialism" -- and encourage them to see their own lives in the context of the imminent return of Christ.

I'm not sure churches offer this to their members. Generally, churches do not require subscription to a particular view of the mellenium. Depends on the church.

Plymouth Brethren is one exception I am aware of in NI who have a strong presumption toward dispensational premillenialism. This is also the view that influences, remote or othwerise, most 'fundamentalist' denominations here. Big in the USA, too. Definitely the most popular eschatology, and something that has really only become popular in the last 150 years. It's attachment to futurism has informed the popular culture perception of Anti-Christ, Armageddon and so on.

Camping doesn't really fit any of these 'schemes' as far as I'm aware.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

LSV,

All Camping achieved was to make some christians look silly. Over intellectualising like you are is simply paying way too much attention to what in effect was a self delusion which pandered to and gained the support of those already vulnerable due to their over literalistic view of their religion. Camping was not a win for atheism, for it to be a win there would have to be an assertion which there is not.

I know you think there is but hey - Camping believed the end was nigh and he was wrong so maybe some some other religious people should just take the salutatory lesson that they can (and maybe are) wrong instead of preaching to those who's assertions they make up in order to theologise away.

I think when people say remember this is the 21st century they are not so much saying that morality has changed - more that we have the freedom to live by our personal morality and make our own decisions as to what is right and wrong for ourselves, within the law obviously, and not by the morals of others or their gods. I regard that as progress or progressive if you will - not the morality but the freedom.

Couple of things, or three.

I know it shouldn鈥檛 surprise me that (some of) the atheists who are critiquing Harold Camping鈥檚 rapture prediction on the 鈥楤ig Rickety End Times Lottery Wheel鈥� are reading the bible as literalistically as any fundamentalist christian, but it does. As Peter Klaver said on the 鈥極pen Thread鈥� #95 鈥漷he spectrum of beliefs held by all those who call themselves christians is so wide, that capturing them all in one statement... does seem bound to go wrong.鈥�

Second - William says, 鈥漈here are moral and theological questions here for responsible church leaders.鈥� Quite right. We (christians) need to learn more about how to *live* as christians, not *escape* as christians.

Three. re James McConnell. I wonder if I might make a suggestion? If there are any other christians out there who feel like spinning the 鈥楨nd Times Wheel鈥�, pick a date well *after* your lifetime. Here鈥檚 my prophecy, I mean, guess - Tuesday 14th November 2376. If you add together the digits in the number....

My heart goes out to all the vulnerable people deceived by Camping and who gave him all their money. I think everyone writing on this blog, believers and non-believers, would agree that preachers who use religion to exploit the gullible should be dealt with severely by the courts.

William Crawley wrote:

"Not a day has passed, he said, since the death of Christ when someone, somewhere wasn't predicting his imminent return."

It is often overlooked that Jesus himself was predisposed to issuing dire warnings about imminent end times. All of Jesus's specific predictions also failed. He did not return 'soon'. The people he was preaching to did 'not' see the son of man return on clouds of glory, though Jesus promised that they would.

Camping is nothing new in this popular 'death cult' known as Christianity.

5. logica_sine_vanitate wrote:

What is 'audacious' about the scientific claims concerning climate change?

10, I agree newlach. There should be at least some mechanism in place to prevent his radio station asking for more donations come the next "rapture". Otherwise his business is cashing in x amount of times on the same prediction made from his *dodgy* calculations- makes him more of a snake oil salesman than a Pastor

I had a premonition last night that I'd get dejavu this morning.

I don't believe in deja vu. (Didn't I say that before?)

Harold Camping's attempts to explain away the lack of an event last Saturday, along with the reactions of a lot of his followers is a classic example of cognative dissonance. Instead of thinking they're wrong, they instead choose to believe that reality is wrong.

I feel compelled to point something out, however. LSV's stated that "there are views relating to the distant past - before recorded human history - which are so speculative as to be, in effect, unfalsifiable."

In effect to whom, LSV? Are you in effect saying that they are falsifiable, but it's just hard to do so? Doesn't that mean, in fact, they -are- falsifiable? Just because something is improbable, or speculative, but based on good evidence, does not make it false, despite your desires otherwise.

Compare that to Camping's assertions about the end of the world which were purely speculative and, thankfully, very falsifiable, unlike the rest of religion which relies, nay, -requires- speculation to function.

I can go even a bit further than Natmans bit about theories that are falisfiable but where doing so has so far proven impossibly hard to do. An object of significant mass that only has the earth's gravity acting on it, yet remains hanging freely a few meters above the ground, would kill Newtons laws of motion for everyday objects. In the same way that the proverbial rabbit fossil dating from the Cambrian would kill evolution. There's plenty of ways we can think of in which both theories could be falsified. LSV could hardly be more wrong than in holding up the difficulty to falsify certain falsifiable theories as argument against these theories. The fact that e.g. after more than a century or a few centuries both evolution and Newtons laws have not been falsified, is testament to how extremely good these theories are.

I actually did get a premonition the night before Arthur Lowe died. I don't believe in such things to be honest (normally) and why Arthur Lowe of all people but I did.

On the more general topic, didn't Jesus say somewhere, that only the Father knows when the world will end. I think it's a safe rule to ingnore all warnings about the end times.

Good thoughts from Darryl Hart

Good advice from St. Peter:
"But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8鈥�14).

18. mccamleyc wrote:

"I actually did get a premonition the night before Arthur Lowe died. I don't believe in such things to be honest (normally) and why Arthur Lowe of all people but I did."

Hello mccamleyc

If you were reminded in some way of Arthur Lowe on the night he died (maybe you saw an old episode of Dad's Army, or maybe you just happened to dream about Arthur Lowe) it does not follow that you had a 'premonition' that he was going to die. It's the old story about thinking of someone you knew from the past one day and they just happen to call you that night. It seems like a minor miracle.

But you have to ask yourself how many old acquaintances you think about every day, or how many elderly celebrities for that matter, who then 'don't' call you up that night, or who 'don't' die the following morning. It's called 'counting the hits but not the misses', AKA 'postdiction'. The trademark tool of 'fortune-tellers' and swindlers everywhere.

In fact we think about loads of people all the time. If nothing untoward or unusual happens concerning that person then we tend to forget the memory them after a while. However if they happen to die, or call you up that night (or the next day, or the next week), which by the law of averages one or two are bound to over the period of several years, then we tend to be aghast, and start mumbling to ourselves darkly about 'premonitions'. Whooooo....

If, on the other hand, you were approached by a tall, skeletal man carry a scythe who told you that Arthur Lowe was 'about to die', then that is genuinely impressive.

#21

"If, on the other hand, you were approached by a tall, skeletal man carry a scythe who told you that Arthur Lowe was 'about to die', then that is genuinely impressive."

You're quite right, Newdwr; if mccamleyc had been approached by a metaphor, perhaps personification would be better (I like to imagine it was in the middle of the night), that would have been genuinely impressive. Like, his eyes would have been literally popping out of his head if that had happened!

:-)

22. peterm2:

Most apparitions (metaphors) appear in the middle of the night.

They also sometimes appear in strong sunlight.

'Truth' may be in the eye of the beholder?

@21:
I agree that many, if not most examples of premonitions, ESP, etc have a logical explanation but unless you've experienced something outside the realm of natural law, it's very hard to explain to others. And if you do it's rather trying & embarrassing to you & often annoying to others.

Re- Pastor Camping, Founder of "Family Radio", the Christian Radio Network

There's this:

Between 2005 and 2009, Family Radio received $80 million in donations.

Financial statements in possession of MinistryWatch.com show Family Radio鈥檚 total assets were $152 million for 2007

In 2009, Donations topped $18 million, yet Financial statements for 2009 show a drop of $80 million that remains unaccounted for

MinistryWatch.com has given Family Radio a transparency grade of 鈥淐鈥�

Wonder if they ever played this on his radio station :p

I have to repost this, even though you can go look at it yourself by clicking on the link at the right.



It's basically the gist of the argument on here and the theists who say it isn't need to clarify their position.

In concern to the rapture I believe its going to happen 19/5/2013 and that you should expect us..

Rattles,

!In concern to the rapture I believe its going to happen 19/5/2013 and that you should expect us.."

expect you to what ? god I hate it when people get raptured half way through a sentence... some deities have no manners !!!!

Dave,

Just like cutting off mid-sentence when you say Candlejack, it can get rea

I would reply but you forgot to leave a forwarding address.