大象传媒

The Cloyne Report provides yet more evidence that the Vatican puts its own interests above those of raped and tortured children. This is cover-up at the highest level, and given the role of the Papal Nuncio in the matter should he not be sent back to Rome from where he can continue to do God's work? Stymieing a state investigation into child-molesting priests is a very serious matter and the government should give more support to abuse survivors to help them secure adequate compensation from the Catholic Church.

/news/uk-northern-ireland-14224199

newlach

It would appear that the mobilization of Catholics, certainly in the US, Ireland, Australia and many parts of Europe, is well under way, and not just regarding the issue of abuse. (The abuse has been the catylist though.)

The following is happening in Australia. The letter hits every nail on the head.

RJB,

I have to say I was surprised (not unimpressed) by the statement by Enda Kenny in the Irish Parliament effectively accusing the Vatican of wilful evasion and arrogant interference in another sovereign state, this from what was the most catholic of catholic countries. Looks like the free ride is over.

On a different note I see that the Christian Legal Centre are trying to garner support behind the challenge in the European courts for the 4 christians who lost their cases to try to have discrimination based on religious belief allowed in the UK. They have managed to have an early day motion put forward and had 15 MP sign it in support. It is now 14 MP's as one realised what he signed and apologised.

Why this is interesting is that of the 14 signatures - 3 are from Northern Ireland.

Mark Durkan (that is a surprise) I can't believe Mark knows the source of the EDM
Jim Shannon (no surprise)
Jeffrey Donaldson (no surprise) although he seems to have been quiet on moral issues of late - not sure why but it would be funny to ask him. He seems to have become like a worm on a hook on moral issues recently, wriggling.

Kenny's speech was like something you'd read on this blog - nasty, mean, spiteful and not remotely based on the facts. But you know, it did distract from the Roscommon debacle so I guess it's done its job.

Dave

The Irish government has been astonishing - as you say, the most Catholic of countries.

They mean business and they are demanding an official response from the Vatican. If it is not forthcoming, the Pro Nuncio will be chucked out.

All very interesting considering the Pope is due in Ireland next year. I predict, with the growing outrage of ordinary Irish Catholics, Benedict might have the flu that week.

In my country, the government finance much of the Churches. If these Churches do not give voice to the people, the money is withdrawn and other sanctions are imposed too.

The people also have a huge say in who is appointed as Bishops. Benedict simply doesnt get to impose his conservative yes-men here.

Thankfully, Ireland is going down the same path.

Lol. So no apology from MCC then.

And the Cloyne report? Nasty, mean and spiteful too? And the Ferns report? And the Murphy report?

When will criminal prosecutions happen in the cases of hundreds of thousands of Irish children harmed thanks to the corrupt, Medieval promoters of magical superstition there? Can the people see some action with regards to confiscating RC property?

As I've said before, many times, in a state with the rule of law, one should simply apply the law - the police should investigate, the DPP should prosecute and courts should decide questions of guilt or innocence. Kenny attacks the Vatican over mandatory reporting when there was and isn't no mandatory reporting. I would love to see criminal prosecutions where the evidence is there to support it. The Church is torturing itself with child protection policies at the moment and if anyone broke the law in Cloyne they should be arrested and prosecuted.

RJB;

First off - the only person who suggested you were thick was you. Second, why on earth do you think an 'apology' should flow from some politician's barn-storming, headline-generating tirade?

LucyQ;

Just because people have forebears who lived in the Middle Ages, it doesn't make them any more mediaeval than anyone else. The same could be said of University professors; when they express an opinion, is it necessarily "mediaeval"?

On a positive note, here's some links to Catholic colleges in the US. You can see there are good things happening for the young people in the world,too.Not to ignore the bad or sweep it under the rug, but what does it say if you only see bad news discussed in the posts? A little balance, please.

Perhaps neatly following from those, mscracker, these are the words of Frank M. Turner, History professor at Yale, on one of Blessed John Henry Newman's most influential works;

"Since its publication almost 150 years ago, The Idea of a University has had an extraordinary influence on the shaping and goals of higher education. The issues that John Henry Newman raised鈥攖he place of religion and moral values in the university setting, the competing claims of liberal and professional education, the character of the academic community, the cultural role of literature, the relation of religion and science鈥攈ave provoked discussion from Newman's time to our own."

Since it's an open thread, where have you been William? On your holidays? Somewhere nice?

@11Theophane:
Thanks! I'll have to look for a copy at the library today.Two of my children attended Catholic colleges & it made a lasting difference in their lives.
With the open forum/positive posts theme, here's an article about a part of a celebrity's life that's not so well known(it's also a good newspaper for articles in general,I think):

LucyQ (@ 7) -

When will criminal prosecutions happen in the cases of hundreds of thousands of Irish children harmed thanks to the corrupt, Medieval promoters of magical superstition there? Can the people see some action with regards to confiscating RC property?

"...criminal prosecutions... corrupt..."

Sounds like you believe in some kind of morality by which certain people should be judged. Hmmm. You wouldn't mind just explaining where this 'morality' of yours comes from? How do you justify it, according to your worldview? I really would be intrigued to know.

"Medieval promoters of magical superstition"

Please feel free to elaborate.

One more link to a newspaper article that sheds a positive light on 2 US colleges-one Catholic, one Protestant:

Following the recent discussion about the perspicuity of Scripture here's a useful blog post by James Anderson addressing the Roman Catholic objection to sola scriptura;

@mccamleyc,

"Kenny's speech was like something you'd read on this blog - nasty, mean, spiteful and not remotely based on the facts."

I admire your critical appraisal of your posts. Don't beat yourself up too much - you have some entertainment value.

Theo

Neatly bodyswerved. Because I have criticised the Vatican, you said that I wasnt a Catholic.

Is the Irish government now "not Catholic"?

And by the way, you did say that I was thick and then when I responded to your comment, you then claimed I lacked a sense of humour.

Alzheimers, perhaps?

14. logica_sine_vanitate wrote:

"You wouldn't mind just explaining where this 'morality' of yours comes from?"

Define 'morality'.

16. Andrew:

"Perspicuity". Good word. I admit I had to look it up. It means "the quality of being perspicuous". OK, I also had to look up "perspicuous". It means 'easily understood'. Edification with a twinge of irony for me then.

The RCs are of course correct to question the doctrine of sola scriptura. Unfortunately they do not then go the extra yard and question the doctrine of, for example, transubstantiation.

Both sola scriptura and transubstantiation are absurdities. Neither doctrine withstands a moment's critical evaluation, in my view. So it is an odd spectacle to see groups that are staunchly dedicated to their own particular absurdities launching and defending attacks against and from one another.

It sets a hilarious, Lilliputian tone.

Newdrwr54

I think Jesus would agree with you.

@ 19:
From the online Oxford Dictionary: morality- principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour

(I appreciate the opportunity to check out vocabulary words & Canon Law all in the same day.) :)

Quote for the Day:
"Satisfy your demand for reason but always remember that charity is beyond reason, and God can be known through charity."
鈥� Flannery O'Connor (The Habit of Being: Letters of Flannery O'Connor)

@20:
About transubstantiation: I saw this in a NY Times Book Review about Flannery O'Connor while looking about online at her quotes.

"Rust Hills, the fiction editor of Esquire, put her in the middle of the 鈥渞ed-hot center鈥� in his Literary Establishment chart of 1963. Elizabeth Hardwick took her to dinner at Mary McCarthy鈥檚 apartment, where McCarthy conceded that the communion wafer was a symbol of the Holy Ghost and a pretty good one, whereupon Flannery made her famous reply, 鈥淲ell, if it鈥檚 a symbol, to hell with it.鈥�
Stranger Than Paradise By JOY WILLIAMS
Published: February 26, 2009

RJB # 2, It was interesting to read the Australian petition & you're right- it hits every nail on the head. Post 5, regarding Ireland; the most Catholic of countries & the Irish Govt-
"They mean business and they are demanding an official response from the Vatican. If it is not forthcoming, the Pro Nuncio will be chucked out".

Unfortunately, it probably won't make a blind bit of difference. The Vatican is too arrogant to care- Priest 'not confident' in Vatican

This compounds the idea the Vatican is no arbiter of morality. As if Ratzinger & his cohorts are trying their best to outcompete the Avignon Papacy, which was notorious for greed and corruption.

I think there comes a stage where you have to trust your instincts. If the man-made dogma of religion is set aside, yet a belief in God is still held, perhaps God/Universe wishes us to evolve & work to understand it, rather than remain static & assume all knowledge is gifted to us in sola scriptura. And rather than try shoe-horning the modern world & scientific advances into the context of bronze/iron age writings, perhaps it's healthier to accept God isn't tied to any particular religion- that religion is just humanities 'attempt' at tapping into knowledge that science is far better at deciphering on so many levels.

Ryan

I actually think that it will make a difference. Regarding my situation, it made a huge difference this very week. I cant tell you the details on here.

The Vatican, you are right, wont respond to reason or justice. But they do respond to anything which will dent their power or wealth.

I have waited nearly four decades to hear the leader of a country speak the way Enda Kenny spoke this week. This was a man who was not playing politics - regardless of what his critics say. This speech had abuse victims in tears around the globe.

They have ignored us for decades. Let's see them ignore a Government, especially a staunchly Catholic one. The tide is turning.

Newdwr

"Perspicuity". Good word. I admit I had to look it up. It means "the quality of being perspicuous". OK, I also had to look up "perspicuous". It means 'easily understood'. Edification with a twinge of irony for me then.

More than a twinge, your comments are frequently dense.

Of course, that you had to look up perspicuity tells me a lot about your familiarity with this issue. Still, must not let ignorance get in the way of pontificating.

The RCs are of course correct to question the doctrine of sola scriptura. Unfortunately they do not then go the extra yard and question the doctrine of, for example, transubstantiation.

Since transubstantiation doesn't arise from a commitment to sola scriptura this doesn't make sense.

Both sola scriptura and transubstantiation are absurdities. Neither doctrine withstands a moment's critical evaluation, in my view.

The absurd thing is putting stock in your 鈥榗ritical evaluation鈥�, in my view.

So it is an odd spectacle to see groups that are staunchly dedicated to their own particular absurdities launching and defending attacks against and from one another.

Yes, someone defending what they believe is an odd spectacle except when you're doing it. Staunchly dedicated as you are.

Andrew;

Out of genuine interest, how do Protestants deal with the objection that 'sola scriptura', itself, is not scriptural?

romejellybeen;

Alright RJB, i apologise for joking that you might not know whether or not the Vatican has a patent on the word "tradition".

Re 27's, "More than a twinge, your comments are frequently dense"
Oh I wouldn't say that, Newdwr's posts are always clear, intelligently put & polite. Of course they often express bias, but so does everyone else's contributions on here!
I wasn't going to comment on Newdwr's 20, but his paragraph on "Perspicuity" was genuinely funny. A rare moment to laugh out loud on this blog, thanks Newdwr :p

It is greatly concerning that the Church authorities could not disclose to Sunday Sequence the whereabouts of Bishop John Magee who should have responded to the devastating Cloyne report by now.

The writer John Cornwell who interviewed Magee painted a picture of him as a friendless loner whose only "friend" was the discredited Archbishop Paul Marcinkis (God's Banker). Also of great interest is the allegation that Magee himself was involved in an incident involving "inappropriate" behaviour.

Mary Kenny's argument that therapists , doctors, priests etc. should not report to police admissions by paedophiles that they abused children is lunacy. Once a paedophile starts speaking about his or her undiscovered crimes it is time to turn on the voice recorder and to get the information required to convict the pervert and to help bring some justice to the victims.

newlach;

"The writer John Cornwell who interviewed Magee..." is perhaps best known for a biography of Pope Pius XII, called "Hitler's Pope". Responding to this book (quoting Wikipedia);

"Rabbi David Dalin's 'The Myth of Hitler's Pope' argues that critics of Pius are liberal Catholics and ex-Catholics who "exploit the tragedy of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to foster their own political agenda of forcing changes on the Catholic Church today" and that Pius XII was actually responsible for saving the lives of many thousands of Jews.

I think it is time to suggest openly that some of the same people are now exploiting the tragedy of child sexual abuse to foster the same agenda, conscious that the Church is a bulwark against the ever-expanding reach of the 'culture of death', in which unborn children are among those denied their civil rights.

I think it is time to suggest openly that some of the same people are now exploiting the tragedy of child sexual abuse to foster their own agenda, conscious that the Church is a bulwark of the ever-expanding reach of Abrahamic religions & their 'culture of death', in which children born into it are denied their civil rights.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

@32. Theophane:
I wonder about that,too. Not at the legitimacy of grievances but at the use of that as a tool in a larger effort to undermine the Church.

mscracker

The Roman Clerics have NEVER acknowledged the legitimacy of the grievances. They have used every trick in the book to shift the blame onto gays, Vatican II, the parents, the Woodstock era, secularism, liberalism, the Media, the police etc..

Even when the Government of arguably the most Catholic country in the world, lay the blame firmly at the door of Roman Clericalism, you still blame those who are trying to undermine the Church.

"The trouble with complete self-righteousness is that, no matter what you say or do, you simply end up proving them right."

You have consistently come on here pushing a conservative agenda - while claiming that you are simply seeking knowledge. And when you are called on it, like I'm calling you now, your next post tends to be some banal line about everyone being entitled to their opinions and calling for people to be charitable and more positive.

You are obviously very adept at kidding yourself on but you arent pulling the wool over anyone else's eyes.

Quote for the Day:

"In the end, there is no end."
鈥� Robert Lowell

@ 36 RJB:
Again, I am entitled to my opinion as are you. And as a Catholic woman, would appreciate & expect respectful replies from other posters.Life is short & bickering unbecoming to Christians.

mscracker

My respect will be 'earned' not expected or demanded.

@39. romejellybeen:
My post was concerning respectful replies.
That's a rather odd response.From a fellow Christian I would expect but not demand respectful replies even if we were in disagreement.That's a basic rule for posting in any forum, much less one concerning religion & ethics.

Read this and thought it seemed down the right street for this blog, Will -- some of the comments were esp interesting:

There were comments about Bishop Chaput of Denver last week. I found an article about him & the issues he faces in his new assignment:


(I didn't know his mother belonged to a Native American tribe, nor that his father was French-Canadian.Interesting article.)

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Quote For The Day:
We may not doubt that society in heaven consists mainly of undesirable persons.
- Mark Twain's Notebook

While looking at the Scottish Catholic Media site earlier, I saw an article about the Arandora Star tragedy, something I'd not read about before. And another link from scotsitalian.com that was interesting. Lots to learn about online.

Quote For The Day:

REVERENCE, n.

The spiritual attitude of a man to a god and a dog to a man.

Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary 1911

Good quote mscracker- quite like this one by Isaac Asimov-

"If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul".

This is an interesting article: Nature's hidden prime number code

@47 Ryan,
Very good quote, too. Thanks!
Here's a couple more:

"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
Mark Twain

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts."

MARK TWAIN, Innocents Abroad

@48 Ryan,
We've had cicada's about earlier this summer.They're extremely loud but seem to be only around for a short time.After the recent rains we have the frogs singing at night, which is a little easier to listen to.
I saw this article:

This quote could apply to Anders Behring Breivik...
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction".
Blaise Pascal.

Another quote which ties into that, by Jonathan Swift, the Irish poet, writer & Priest- "We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another".

Mscracker, Thanks for the quotes :) esp the Mark Twain Innocents Abroad one. I remember someone once saying to me, it's those who need to travel & broaden their horizons the most who never get the opportunity to.

Thanks for the cicada link. That's something I miss by living so far north- away from the equater- there's a distinct lack of 'nature noise' after dark. Love the sound of crickets at night, I must search YouTube for the sound of cicadas

The sound of the cicadas can be pretty overwhelming! but atleast you only have the singing frogs now :p The only thing we have at night here are the screeches of amorous cats lol

Ryan, mscracker,

While we are doing Mark Twain quotes, I have some more. :)

Strange...a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied seventy times seven and invented Hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!

A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.

Most people are bothered by those passages of scripture they don't understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand.

The Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetics in childbirth was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has been opposed by bigotry and superstition. The Greeks surpassed us in artistic culture and in architecture five hundred years before Christian religion was born.

@ PK:
Thanks! I'm actually listening to a biography of Mark Twain on CD's right now.
More Mark Twain:

"A religion that comes of thought, and study, and deliberate conviction, sticks best. The revivalized convert who is scared in the direction of heaven because he sees hell yawn suddenly behind him, not only regains confidence when his scare is over, but is ashamed of himself for being scared, and often becomes more hopelessly and malignantly wicked than he was before."
- Letter San Francisco Alta California, November 15,1868

Alas! those good old days are gone, when a murderer could wipe the stain from his name and soothe his trouble to sleep simply by getting out his blocks and mortar and building an addition to a church.
- The Innocents Abroad

When I reflect upon the number of disagreeable people who I know have gone to a better world, I am moved to lead a different life.
- Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar, 1894

No thread with quotes by Twain would be complete without LSV's favourite, that didn't actually come from some nasty gnu:

There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the school boy who said, Faith is believing what you know ain't so.
-Following the Equator, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

Such a great word, 'Pudd'nhead' :p

One last Quote For Friday:

"POLYGAMY
No man can serve two masters."
-quoted in Wit and Wisdom of Mark Twain,


*
You all have a good weekend!
:)

The current tensions in Kosovo have the potential to be, as it were, a real headache. Isn't it reassuring then that we have Baroness Ashton in the role of High Representative of the EU for Foreign Affairs and Security policy - the fourth choice British candidate demanded by Gordon Brown when he couldn't crowbar his alleged war criminal mate Tony Blair into the position of President of the European Council.

This article was published a few days ago & sheds light on the interrelationship between El Paso & Ciudad Ju谩rez-

Just wanted to share this interesting and heartfelt appeal, quoted in the current 大象传媒 article by Nick Thorpe, "Why Mladic didn't shoot";

'Speaking in a 大象传媒 interview, Nenad Stocovic, a next-door neighbour who was with Gen Mladic for four hours during his arrest in the village of Lazarevo on 26 May...

...said he has a message for the journalists of the world.

"You can help us a lot, but you can also do us a lot of damage. All I ask is that you tell the truth. Only the truth will extinguish the fires. This is the message of a self-educated man."'

60.At 19:19 31st Jul 2011, _Ryan_ wrote:
This article was published a few days ago & sheds light on the interrelationship between El Paso & Ciudad Ju谩rez- Life on the Line
***
Thanks!
This is very much like other US border towns. Mostly safe & prospering on the US side & mostly dangerous & not so prospering on the Mexican side.

This is a fascinating article drawn from our recent past:

@63. _Ryan_:
This may be "opening a can of worms" as we say in the States, but here in the South at least, eating dirt-generally clean clay-is still practised by some women, but not talked much about.It's probably due to a mineral/nutritional deficiency but doesn't seem so very different from taking calcium supplements or the like. Kaolin(a clay) is an ingredient in medicines for digestive ills. So it's not really that strange.

Mscracker, I guess you're right. Thinking about some of the tummy settler medicines for sale, over the counter, many seem to contain chalk

On Pharyngula I came across another gruesome Catholic sex abuse story. 26 boys are thought to have commited suicide after being raped or otherwise abused. The local bishop doesn't see any need for further inquiry.

"You can help us a lot, but you can also do us a lot of damage. All I ask is that you tell the truth. Only the truth will extinguish the fires. This is the message of a self-educated man.
The charges against Mladic in the ICTY
Lets hear the truth as his trial unfolds.

paul james, no.67,

RJB puts it rather well on the 'Papal Nuncio' thread;

"Please everyone on here, if a judge speaks he is to be listened to. Judges know more than everyone."

Twisted as ever Theo, do I really have to point out the difference between a public speech and the workings of a court of law?

In other news,
Any theological treatises on Jesus's ""?

paul james, no.69;

"...do I really have to point out the difference between a public speech and the workings of a court of law?"

A 'Kangaroo' court of law according to some people.

No. 70;

An anti-Christian slogan at a 'gay pride' march will waltz past the moderators, but of course it would be futile to try to put even a mildly gay-critical chant from a football match on this blog.

Anti christian? surely not Theo, maybe you could refer to the other holy father on this one.

Theophane,

I don't know how you work out it was anti-christian. Seems to me the bible story tells of a couple your god chose to have a surrogate child with. Your Jesus was the son of your god and had Joseph as his second father who brought him up. Is that not the case or have I misread that particular story. It would seem no different to any other surrogacy story except in this case it is the absent father who wanted to give the child up to a then childless couple - which is not a unique situation even to day (without the supernatural part of it).

Mind you, given that your god could have created a baby without all that palaver (or even created a 30 year old man if he wanted) it seems a rather nasty thing to do to take the virginity of a young woman, something much prized in those days, and treat a young couple as a pair of cuckoos. Reminds me of The Omen.

On Saturday a play entitled "The Great Tennessee Monkey Trial" was aired on Radio 4. It was adapted from the original trial transcript of a case brought against John Scopes in 1925 who taught evolution and includes some excellent courtroom debate (Clarence Darrow v William Jennings Bryan).

/programmes/b00nwz36

One question asked but not answered was: "Where did Cain get his first wife?"

Any answers?

Saint of the Day:
St. Jean-Marie Vianney
Feast Day: August 4th
Patron Saint of Priests

(One of my very favorite saints.)

Newlach

Wives-R-Us?
Multi-taskers for hire?

I take it then that jesus did in fact have "two dads.... and turned out all right" so what the hell is McAllister on about?

Now you are asking difficult questions, the sort Jimbo doesn't allow us to ask because there isn't a bible verse they have convoluted into an answer yet. Don't worry the US mob will have one for them for next time.

grokesx (@ 56) -

No thread with quotes by Twain would be complete without LSV's favourite, that didn't actually come from some nasty gnu:

There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the school boy who said, Faith is believing what you know ain't so.

-Following the Equator, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

???

Feeling alright, mate? What's all this about "LSV's favourite"?

You've certainly confused me, that's for sure.

Still, I suppose this is the silly season after all!

Anyway, "silly season" or not, I'm just glad to be sitting here writing this after my health scare last week. The unblocking and stenting of a major coronary artery isn't my usual idea of a summer break, but there you go... (I've always got my mate grokesx to cheer me up!)

I'm doing fine, by the way, if anyone feels like asking. :-)

Hope you are recovering well and do what the doctors tell you. x

Thanks, Dave.

I've got the cardiac rehab nurse on my back now - got a telling off the other day for not taking some painkillers when I should have done, but apart from that I am being a good boy.

No more greasy burgers, cream cakes etc...

And to think that I wasn't a smoker, just slightly overweight and didn't actually have a really bad diet. Perhaps I'll get out jogging now instead of gawping at the computer screen for hours!

Hey LSV, just read what happened to you, I hope you're recovering ok. This place can be pretty bad for your stress levels! But, just to say I missed you on here. You lift this blog onto higher minded topics

@LSV

Whoa, take care of yourself. I'll spare you the details of the Twain thing - it was months ago.

Hennyway, listen to them doctors and nurses and keep your blood pressure down. For a start, ignore everything me, Natman and Peter K say - we know nothing.

LSV

Get well soon, Buddy.

I hope you didnt get any blood transfusions because in the Bible it clearly states that........

(Only kiddin! Welcome back.)

LSV

Glad to hear you're doing well - do take care - hopefully the thought of grokesx's comment (#83), we're atheists... we know nothing, will help keep your spirits up!!

LSV, dude chill.

Thanks for your comments.

What freaks me out quite a bit is the idea that I thought my chest pain was just 'anxiety' and 'stress'. There's plenty of information on the internet to 'reassure' someone who is doing his darndest to not face up to the cardiac explanation.

With the help of one of my sons I've put together about this - only text, I'm afraid, with some (creepy? morose?) music in the background.

It astonishes me that what was obviously the pain of 'stable angina' (chest pain only when exercising) could actually be the effect of a completely occluded rather than merely narrowed artery. Somehow my heart found a way to work round the problem.

As I say... no more cream cakes and fry ups, and I might even try to go a bit easier on the epistemology as well! :-)

logica_sine_vanitate :
Will say a prayer for your full recovery.God bless!
(Our part of the US is known for deep-fried everything, so we have a challenging diet for heart health here.)

Feast Day for Today:

Our Lady of the Snows

Hey Lsv, You could try Eskimo Omega-3 oil. You can get it from a Health Food store or Online. I've been taking it since my early 20's & its good for Cholesterol levels (dodgy tickers run in my family)
You might not have to give up on the burgers. Venison burgers are really low in fat & taste pretty good! :)

A Quote for the Weekend:

"For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more--remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words."
鈥� J.R.R. Tolkien

@90. _Ryan_:
We use the fish oil supplements, too, at home.The omega 3 is supposed to keep the brain healthy, too.
Deermeat can be roasted like a leg of lamb.I've inserted bits of garlic & then roasted with bacon on top to keep it from drying out.Bacon defeats the low fat purpose, but I suppose olive oil could substitute.
One of my children had a DNA test run,(he was interested in family history.)The maternal DNA type was "T3" which,per the internet at least,is common to Ireland & Western parts of Britain & predisposes one towards coronary disease.Good news is it protects against senility & Parkinson's.Supposedly.

Hey Mscracker, I'm not much of a cook, my other half does most of the cooking, but it sounds like a recipe he'd like! I'm more into the fresh fruit, salads, fish, veg side. I think it's pretty amazing we can walk into a supermarket in the depths of winter, snow piled high & still buy a pineapple lol. We're lucky in the West to be able to do that.

Ryan,
We used to get deermeat from hunters as a thank you for permission to hunt on our property.Sadly, where we live now the game consists more of armadillos, coyotes & the occasional bunny.
So I end up eating more of the salads, vegetables, etc. now, too.
If you should find yourself with a deer roast, you can add rosemary & ground pepper on top & after roasting, whisk some flour & beef broth into the pan drippings for gravy.Alternately we'd can (bottle in glass jars) deermeat stew for the pantry.On a busy day we'd heat up a jar & serve with bisquits(scones) or dumplings.
I think it's amazing we can buy fruits out of season, too.
Enjoy your weekend!

Today's piece on the selling of a human kidney for 拢28,000 was very interesting. I think that this is a good idea, but my concern is that at some point in the future the donor could become ill as a consequence of donating the kidney and therefore be entitled to claim state benefits. Some clause would have to be included in the contract to protect taxpayers.

Currently, a person can fly to another country for a kidney transplant where the donor is paid much, much less. In fact, there have been cases of poor people claiming that they have had their kidneys removed without their permission.

On the issue of the death penalty, if it were reintroduced in Britain it would make sense to strip clean the executed of their usable organs.

Take it steady LSV.

Saint of the Day:

St. Dominic: Founder of the Order of Preachers, commonly known as the Dominican Order; born at Calaroga, in Old Castile, c. 1170; died 6 August, 1221.

Quotes for Monday:

"The lack of a sense of history is the damnation of the modern world."
鈥� Robert Penn Warren

--"A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others. "
Robert E. Lee

Hey Mscracker, your first quote by Robert Penn Warren ties into an article I just read. To quote-

So we all see the world differently. Indeed, we have no choice about this because our experiences of the world are necessarily different.

None of us sees the world as it is.

In this sense we are all delusional, what each of us sees is a meaning derived from our shared and individual histories.

This awareness, possibly more than anything else, provides an irrefutable argument for celebrating diversity, rather than fear in conformity

The article's entitled Do you see what I see?

@99 Ryan,
Thank you.Very interesting article.
There was an article a while back about folks who mix their senses-as in hearing colors. I found another online:
"Synaesthesia - The Mixing of the Senses"