´óÏó´«Ã½

Quite an interesting listen, but everyone misses the point completely. The most important news story of last weekend was not in fact Libyan rebels' entry into Tripoli, accompanied by much-admired journalists or otherwise. It was the gathering of one and a half million young people on an airfield in Spain, defying the 'zeitgeist' of religious amnesia and selfish materialism, to show their love and support for Pope Benedict XVI. Many important moments of Pope John Paul II's pontificate were similarly marginalised by broadcasters, but here in fact were the events which made, for example, the fall of the Berlin Wall possible. 'How many divisions has the Pope?' If you didn't register the big story last weekend, you'll never know.

Fantastic, Theo, fantastic. With your unerring eye for the hottest stories around, you are clearly wasted mucking about in the comments here. I notice there's an Editorial Internship position coming up at You should apply, you'd be an asset.

So idolatry is more important than human conflict Theophane.

Great prioritisation !!!!

I shouldn't really complain as it is attitudes like that that drive people away from your church so keep 'er lit Theo - maybe you could get a blog for all your musings so you can do it more effectively to a wider audience. I think mccamleyc has one but the more the merrier as it will speed up the process.

Steve Hewlett pulled no punches on the ´óÏó´«Ã½ executive. I have not seen the footage referred to - but Alex Crawford got the pictures all journalists would sell their grannies for!

War reporting is a lot different from writing the gardening or house and home column, and travelling into a city where there are enemy snipers is especially dangerous. If you are responsible for a journalist's safety you must tread very cautiously indeed - if Wingfield-Thingamijig had accompanied the rebels and been killed all hell would have broken loose. This would have been followed by a ´óÏó´«Ã½ internal report (circa 100,000 words). You could be blamed.

Oh come on, Theophane, get a grip, man. These are momentous events in Libya, and Catholic events go on all the time.

Perhaps you just felt sorry for the thread, and felt you had to kick it off with something. (See, I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt!)

LOL Theo that was quite amusing- When you say "everyone misses the point completely" over war coverage in Libya- to then wax lyrical about Ratzinger, Zeitgeist & how many 'Divisions' he has... Nothing like desire for Catholic Jihad & religious pride to cloud your perspective... Has war in Libya whetted your appetite?

I thought Journalists were supposed to maintain balance in their news coverage?

So why are the ´óÏó´«Ã½, Sky and CNN etc all 'embedded' with the 'rebels'? Clearly their outlook will be swayed in favour of those with whom they have the best contact.

I don't feel I can trust anything I'm being told about the events in Libya.

newdwr54,

There were journalists inside Tripoli in the run up to the rebels takeover and they were only allowed to report the way the Libyan regime allowed so it could hardly be taken as unbiased either.

My problem with all these embedded journalists is that they go native (and so become sympathetic and so biased) and they distract the troops from battle to look after them. I heard one journalist say that they felt safer because the armies priority was their protection - sorry no! - the armies priorities are to carry out their military objectives and protect themselves, civilians and their comrades. Protecting journalists must be lower than that as they have a choice to be there and must accept the risks that it entails.

We have always had war correspondents and they do an important job recording more than just the numbers of casualties and yards conquered - but there almost seem to be more TV crews and journalists wandering round war zones than combatants.

I am not sure this saturation coverage adds to our knowledge and worry that it simply feeds a more primitive want to see violence. When does it stop being informative and become the equivalent of slowing down to stare passing a car wreck?

Felt sorry for the ´óÏó´«Ã½ and others trapped in the Rixos Hotel trying desperately to make their plight newsworthy or the poor correspondent who was with rebels at the south wall of Gaddafis compound while a rival made entry at the North gate. Sometimes a Pulitzer can be very fickle.

8. Dave’s post.

Well said. And I wonder who’s sponsoring the war. Hang on, the commercial’s over.

LSV;

"Oh come on, Theophane, get a grip, man. These are momentous events in Libya, and Catholic events go on all the time."

They are indeed momentous events in Libya, with tremendous ramifications for the people of...Libya. My contention however is that this year's 'World Youth Day' was no ordinary "Catholic event". Aggressive secularism is bent on snuffing out the Christian faith on the European continent; the future of Europe's long-cherished Christian identity hinges on gatherings of young Christians like this.

On the subject of war reporting, i was interested to learn that John Simpson's Anglican faith has been vitally important to him over the years. This was especially true after the death of a Kurdish translator he had hired, Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed, in a friendly fire incident in 2003 when he was on assignment in Iraq. His vicar later helped him to come to terms with this by saying that "God holds Kamaran to Him, as much now as before." Plenty of people would scoff at this sort of appeal to the divine for reassurance - but actually words like these are and have been of immeasurable value to countless millions of people in all kinds of different circumstances all over the world. If we wish them to retain any resonance in our society, we cannot just sit idly by while Christianity is muscled out of our cultural landscape.

LSV again;

Actually i don't believe you do "sit idly by" but plenty of others do.

11.At 20:27 26th Aug 2011, Theophane wrote:

"If we wish them to retain any resonance in our society, we cannot just sit idly by while Christianity is muscled out of our cultural landscape."
***
It seems all faiths are being muscled out of our September 11th remembrance ceremony in New York City.Current views are that the mayor is attempting to avoid the controversy which might result if Muslim clerics would wish to join in prayer.
Sad situation.

@11
Fair play to the Anglicans acknowledging allah.

paul james (@ 14) -

@11 Fair play to the Anglicans acknowledging allah.

Please feel free to elaborate.

'Fraid I couldn't quite see the evidence for that comment in post #11, but perhaps my eyesight isn't what it used to be.

Lsv-

This was especially true after the death of a Kurdish translator he had hired, Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed, in a friendly fire incident in 2003 when he was on assignment in Iraq. His vicar later helped him to come to terms with this by saying that "God holds Kamaran to Him, as much now as before."

I thought it was long accepted all 3 Abrahamic religions believe in the same God? Or are we still at the stage where- even within Christianity- Protestants & Catholics don't even acknowledge theirs is the same God... This is why many recoil from outward worship given half a chance. If Christianity & religion in general is reduced to a minority in the 'freer' West, it will be in reaction to its most fundamentalist & uncompromising members. That's a shame, because it's denying many gentler personality types a right to faith- they're just scared off it & given the relative freedom of choice in the West compared to most parts of the world, they're not going to be scared back to it either

mscracker,

When you say 'OUR September 11th remembrance ceremony in New York City' what exactly do you mean, I for one view the lack of religion as something inclusive of all who wish/want/need to remember.

Here we go...Dave was in New York that day so it's HIS remembrance ceremony just as much as it is anyone else's...

Ryan (@ 16) -

Of course I read that passage in post #11, but my point to Paul James was why he drew from those comments the idea that Anglicans were acknowledging Allah.
All the vicar said was that 'God' was holding Kamaran to him, as much now as before.

Now I assume that what Paul James was suggesting was that the nature of God is defined by what we believe about him. So therefore if the Kurdish translator (presumably a Muslim) believed in God in terms of the Muslim faith - i.e. 'God' as 'Allah' - that that is what 'God' becomes (in other words, 'God' is not real, but just a humanly devised construct).

This is just patronising. What I am detecting behind Paul's comment is a view that 'God' is just an idea made up by human beings, and therefore whenever we talk about God we have to do so in terms framed by the belief system of the person being referred to. But that is not the Christian position at all. This is just atheism being patronising towards theists.

God is objectively real, and he has a certain character that remains the same quite irrespective of what we believe about him. So when the vicar is talking about 'God', he is talking about Someone whose nature does not change in accordance with the beliefs of this Muslim.

Don't imagine for one minute that I am suggesting that because Kamaran died as a Muslim that he has been condemned. I am not a Gnostic, and therefore I do not believe that "right thinking" is a necessary condition for salvation (although right thinking is important, since how we think affects how we behave). This, I suspect, would be the vicar's position.

It is absolutely insulting and patronising to say that the 'God' who declares Jesus Christ to be his son, is the same God who declares that Jesus Christ is not his son. This approach is no different from telling an atheist that all theories about the origin of life are equally true, and if you don't accept that then you are being self-righteous and bigoted!!

Truth is truth, and it is wrong to expect people to embrace contradictions in the name of tolerance. Atheists don't expect to be treated like this, so why should we?

So many gods, so little time.

A few years ago i heard a homily from an Indian priest, who reported seeing an anti-British T-shirt, which at the time i thought a little 'over-the-top'. It was a Union Jack, bearing the legend;

"Go to beautiful places. Meet interesting people. And shoot them."

After this latest bit of regime change in Libya i think it hits the proverbial nail squarely on the head.

paul james -

I'm not going to try to read between the lines of your latest 'deep' offering, as you give me so few lines to read between!

Have a great weekend (what's left of it)...

There's a parallel between increased climate instability & increased social instability. An article on explains how "ancient tree rings show links between climate change and major events in human history, like migrations, plagues and the rise and fall of empires"

Oak rings are sensitive to changes in precipitation, and can show changes according to what was happening in the environment.

"The rise and fall of past civilizations have been associated with environmental change, mainly due to effects on water supply and agricultural productivity, human health and civil conflict," said the study.

"Wet and warm summers occurred during periods of Roman and Medieval prosperity," said the study which looked at tree samples from Europe and other parts of the world.

"Increased climate variability from (around) AD 250-600 coincided with the demise of the Western Roman Empire and the turmoil of the Migration Period."

The conclusion being that, in our current time, we are "certainly not immune to the predicted temperature and precipitation changes, especially considering that migration to more favorable habitats as an adaptive response will not be an option in an increasingly crowded world."

It could be said Individuals who become religiously fundamentalist & extreme are doing so in reaction to stresses of increased climate variability, & ironically just demonstrate how Pagan they truely are under the pretense of religion. What we need is calm, unemotional clarity & an improved science curriculum to counter not only our effect on this Planet, but to develop the technology & science to control our natural environment.

Theophane,

Yep you got it right, it is a remembrance for everyone not just christians, why do you have a problem with that.

mscracker,
17 Dave:
When you say 'OUR September 11th remembrance ceremony in New York City' what exactly do you mean, I for one view the lack of religion as something inclusive of all who wish/want/need to remember.
***
By "Our", I meant NY City, United States. If there are also European ceremonies, I was not referring to those.
Striking out religion from the NYC anniversary ceremony, I think, was an attempt at political correctness & avoidance of controversy rather than inclusion.

mscracker,

Rather than political correctness maybe striking out religion is just ensuring that everyone (of all religions and none) are respected and welcome as an equal.

There is nothing to stop different religions having their own remembrance services (in fact many seem to be doing just that) but why should the official state one reflect a particular and so non inclusive belief. The other route is to include something from all religions but I would assume that it would be impossible to even decide which religions were 'real' enough to include with the added problem that it crosses the line separating church and state.

26.At 23:29 29th Aug 2011, Dave wrote:
"mscracker,

Rather than political correctness maybe striking out religion is just ensuring that everyone (of all religions and none) are respected and welcome as an equal.

There is nothing to stop different religions having their own remembrance services (in fact many seem to be doing just that) but why should the official state one reflect a particular and so non inclusive belief. The other route is to include something from all religions but I would assume that it would be impossible to even decide which religions were 'real' enough to include with the added problem that it crosses the line separating church and state."
**

I think most folks were expecting the 2nd route that you suggest.
NYC has a large Jewish population, plus Muslim, & other faiths. I don't think anyone would expect a single denomination to be represented there.

mscracker,

The problem still remains as to how you decide which religions are included and how to cater in a positive way for atheists, agnostics and indifferents without being either contradictory or patronising. At best all they can do is say "take a minute to reflect in your own personal way according to your beliefs or wishes" anything else will be seen as divisive.

This is why the state should stay out of religious observance. I have seen several religions advertising their own ceremonies, why is that not the correct and proper way to do it?

@28 Dave:
I think you make some good points but most Americans-at least from what I hear in the media- find it disturbing to have religious leaders more or less banned from taking part in the ceremony.

mscracker,

I would not suggest they be banned from taking part, there is no reason why they cannot be there as representitives. If there was a wreath laying then I would hope that representatives of all religions and none could lay their tribute along with other organisations (NYPD,FDNY etc), if there are times when lists of names are being read out I would expect the same.

My concern is when they want to carry out parts of the ceremony (by leading prayers etc). What do you expect Atheists etc to do while everyone is having a pray or singing hymns or being subjected to 'uplifting' sermons (some of which are pseudo political never mind religious) - these things are best left to church or other denominational events.

Families who have lost people in the events of 911 have enough to worry about without having the stress of being commented upon for not bowing their head during a christian prayer or kneeling for a muslim one or singing along or generally not showing the respect that some religions think they are owed. Do they just look around aimlessly and twiddle their thumbs. That is only christian prayers and athiests what do muslims do when the religious leader blesses the crowd - hold up mystic talismans to ward off the blessing.

So I would not ban them - I just think that the ceremony itself should be non religious but allow for participation. It is still difficult because how do you cater for the scientologists, wiccans, mormons, amish, tele-evangelists and spaghetti monster followers.

Dave,

"It is still difficult because how do you cater for the scientologists, wiccans, mormons, amish, tele-evangelists and spaghetti monster followers."

For followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, noodles be upon Him, dressing in full pirate regalia would probably suffice.

PeterKlaver,

As I said Peter - difficult - which is why the state should be secular. I can't imagine the witches being near the catholics especially if there is a candlelit vigil as they have history.

32.At 23:13 30th Aug 2011, Dave wrote:
PeterKlaver,

As I said Peter - difficult - which is why the state should be secular. I can't imagine the witches being near the catholics especially if there is a candlelit vigil as they have history."
***
Actually here in the States, witches have more to fear historically from the Puritans.But they utilized hanging rather than fire.

mscracker,

almost more difficult than seating the guests at a wedding !

A bit sheepishly, with help from ´óÏó´«Ã½ reporting of the unrest in Libya, which i hadn't been following, i think my #21, about the t-shirt and "regime change", may be wrong. For what its worth. Maybe western countries weren't acting so self-interestedly as i thought. Hope they weren't.

34.At 17:42 31st Aug 2011, Dave wrote:
mscracker,

almost more difficult than seating the guests at a wedding !"
***
True, but dissapointing non-the-less. I disagree with the mayor of NY City's decision but can see the possible reasoning behind it.