大象传媒

St Paul's will have no difficulty in finding someone to replace him. The cathedral employs around 200 people who must be paid, and if it is losing 拢20,000 a day I can understand why the Church authorities would want the protesters cleared. It is not unreasonable to expect the Church to act in this way; it would be naive to expect otherwise.

What goal of the Church do the 200 or so staff working at St Paul's contribute towards?

I guess it's too much to ask they open the doors to the protesters, mustn't let anyone get in the way of the pursuit of money..

Looks like Jesus wasted his time chasing the money lenders away from the temple forecourt. Now the same people are inside the temple looking out.

Very surprised that this thread hasn't had more comments, given its popular relevance.

May be talking to myself, but here goes:

Jesus, we are told, chased the money-changers off the temple forecourt. God's house was not the place to carry out business transactions, was the message I took from that.

The wealth of the CoE today is estimated in the billions of pounds. St Paul's cathedral is more or less in the heart of London's financial district. The CoE and the London business community are *inextricably linked*. Much of the CoE's wealth arose as a result of its earlier dealings in the slave trade.

Where did the traders go? The people Jesus chased off the temple forecourt? It now appears that they are looking out over the forecourt from the temple.

Whether that forecourt is the ground in front of St Paul's or St Peter's Square in Rome, the traders are now very definitely on the inside, as far as I can see.

newdwr54

It is ironic that the Church of England gained so much of its enormous wealth through slavery; but now it has an ethics committee to oversee all investments so everything is fine! Its investment fund grew by 拢500 million in 2010 to reach a value of 拢5.3 billion.

Nice soundbite newlach...

/religion/religions/christianity/history/slavery_1.shtml

6.At 00:24 4th Nov 2011, peterm2 wrote:
Nice soundbite newlach...

/religion/religions/christianity/history/slavery_1.shtml


Interesting article but it doesn't mention Jewish slave owners/traders in the America's.If you visit Charleston,New Orleans, or Savannah you'll meet black people with Jewish last names such as Cohen,Abraham,Benjamin, etc.The same is true in Jamaica & the West IndiesThe earliest synagogue in the US was built in part by slave traders, one of whom is still reknown for his philanthropy to fellow Jews. Slavery was a condition many took for granted in society.Those who had differing views often suffered for it. It's easy to look back now & see slavery through the light of the 21st century but we can miss our own failings.

peterm2

The Beyond Belief programme is also worth listening to. One contributor argues that Africans were forced to change their religion to Christianity, challenging the idea in the text that "Africans accepted and incorporated aspects of Christianity that were in keeping with their traditional belief systems." In the programme we are told that Muhammad owned slaves and that the Jesuits traded in them too. Ernie Rea questions the motives of Wilberforce (not welfare of slaves at first) and a contributor talks about women immigrants being bought and sold at our airports by pimps. One woman was sold for 拢300. Also very interesting in the text is that at at the height of anti-slavery activity Africans were not welcomed by many Quaker congregations.

Ah, the curse of Ham! "Not intrinsic, neither is it true."

newlach

I have a vague recollection of the listening to the Beyond Belief programme when it first aired.

The point of linking to the article, which by no means sought to ignore or exonerate the wrongs committed by the church and by christians, was, as much as anything else, to draw attention to the 'soundbitism' currently in vogue on this blog.

At no time have I sought to defend the wrongs of historic or contemporary Christianity; many terrible things have been done in the name of Jesus, and we all know that religion can be used by almost anyone to justify all kinds of injustice - something the article recognises.

I am not an atheist, this you already know, but to be honest (and I'm speaking generally here), I do not see how the propensity for type-casting Christians forever as the antagonist serves your cause. The last thing you guys need is a messianic atheism.

I have to agree with newdwr 4 here, why are people not interested in talking about the events surrounding St Pauls- is it that St Pauls isn't relevant? The protesters aren't relevant ? or the issues newdwr brought up are too messy to broach?

Ryan

"...too messy to broach?"

On this blog? Hardly!

I had thought of replying, but as the 'temple/money-changer' thing has been spun in at least a couple of different directions, and for different purposes, I though I'd give it a miss.


Having said that, I think the church has missed an opportunity (but it very often does, at least in the public eye); but it is also true to say that in many, many, little but significant ways there are Christians, and non-christians, working for the good of society. And the odd thing about that is they are rarely recognised, rarely encouraged, and rarely thanked publicly, and almost always ignored by the press.

Next story please...

Could it be this?

4. newdwr54 wrote:

鈥淲here did the traders go? The people Jesus chased off the temple forecourt? It now appears that they are looking out over the forecourt from the temple.鈥�


This reminded me of Baroque architecture. I think it was the Catholic Church鈥檚 answer to the Reformation. Decorating churches with statues of saints next to bare-breasted women (symbolizing wealth and power).

Another example is the winged lion (symbolizing authority and power). Check old church fa莽ades in Italy, paid for by Venetian merchants.

Traders have been looking out from the church since...the dawn of churches-?

Little surprise some who want to follow Jesus join orders such as the Poor Clares, who take vows of poverty.

marieinaustin, thanks for the link to the Irish embassy closure in the Vatican.

As an atheist I consider it good news. And the prospect that it may trigger a domino effect of more embassy closures in the Vatican seems very hopeful.

Peter Klaver (@ 14) -

As an atheist I consider it good news. And the prospect that it may trigger a domino effect of more embassy closures in the Vatican seems very hopeful.

As a Christian I also consider it good news. I am no fan of a Church acting as a State, and therefore we have found something (rare) to agree on - although probably for very different reasons.

Enjoy it while it lasts.