England ratings v SA (339)
- 14 Sep 07, 10:12 PM
I was at the Stade de France on Friday as England's World Cup campaign was blown to smithereens by a dominant South Africa, who crushed the defending world champions 36-0.
Here's how I rated the individual England players' performances. See what you think and let us know what you made of the performance.
Jason Robinson 鈥 Bravura display on his return to full-back. Safe under the high ball, a threat when attacking from deep, one run past four Springboks a reminder of his best days. Pulled hamstring ended his night, but a deserved ovation as he departed. 8
Josh Lewsey 鈥 Solid in defence, getting up quickly on Habana, one try-saving tackle on Jaque Fourie stopped further damage in the first half. Little opportunity in attack, and resigned kick into touch late on betrayed his despair at the situation. 6
Jamie Noon 鈥 Worked tirelessly in defence, making his fair share of tackles, but hardly had the ball in his hands as it rarely strayed beyond Catt and Farrell until the last quarter. 5
Andy Farrell 鈥 One kick charged down but otherwise solid with kicking from hand; ran hard but could not conjure space for those around him. Didn鈥檛 have a single chance to show his goalkicking prowess, the subject of so much debate beforehand. 5
Paul Sackey 鈥 Got little change out of JP Pietersen, opting to cut back inside on the few occasions he had the ball. Looked hesitant in his running, and not wholly convincing in defence either. 4
Mike Catt 鈥 Hasn鈥檛 played at 10 in a Test since 1999 and struggled badly. Kicking from hand lacked depth and accuracy, missed several kicks to touch and a straightforward drop-goal attempt when it was 10-0. 4
Shaun Perry 鈥 Disappointing. Missed vital tackle on Pietersen in build-up to Boks鈥 opening try, kicked one out on the full, a couple of loose passes, and did not provide the control at the base of the scrum required. Replaced by Gomarsall at half-time. 3
Andrew Sheridan 鈥 Appeared to be imposing himself over Botha at scrum-time, helping win several free-kicks from the Boks, but rarely seen with the ball in hand until a charge in the final quarter. 5
Mark Regan 鈥 Tried to vary his throwing at the line-out to avoid the Boks predators, but it was a struggle when he went short or long, resorting to safe option in middle. Toiled manfully but replaced by Chuter before the hour. 5
Matt Stevens 鈥 Held his own at scrum-time against Os du Randt, and expended plenty of energy defending round the fringes. Blotted his copybook by conceding a needless penalty at a ruck, which was duly punished by Montgomery. 6
Simon Shaw 鈥 A reliable source of possession at the line-out, and put in his fair share of tackles, but unable to make much headway against a dominant Springboks pack. 5
Ben Kay 鈥 Got through a pile of work, keeping the line-out functioning reasonably well until the end, but was turned over in possession before Pietersen鈥檚 try, and why he opted to try a chip kick when five metres from the line, only he knows. 5
Martin Corry 鈥 Toiled manfully as always, making plenty of tackles and taking the ball up when he could, but must have been a dispiriting experience for a proud warrior on his return to the captaincy. 5
Tom Rees 鈥 A major learning experience for the 22-year-old, who was powerless to influence proceedings against a dominant Springboks back-row, totally overshadowed by the peerless Juan Smith. Replaced by Moody after 53 minutes. 4
Nick Easter 鈥 Grew into the game after a shaky start at the base of the scrum, making yards with a few powerful charges, ploughing through Montgomery on one occasion. But not enough ball on the front foot to work with. 6
Replacements:
George Chuter 鈥 Replaced Regan for the last quarter, and put Ben Kay through a gap with one delightful offload. Solid at the set-piece. 6
Perry Freshwater 鈥 Only on for Sheridan for the last three minutes.
Steve Borthwick 鈥 Came on for Shaw as the last rites were being delivered.
Lewis Moody 鈥 Sent on after 53 minutes to try to stem the tide around the fringes but had little impact on proceedings. 5
Andy Gomarsall 鈥 Came on at half-time and scragged a couple of times in possession. Tried to keep his forwards going but a thankless task. 5
Peter Richards 鈥 Replaced Jamie Noon for a three-minute run-out in his old centre position.
Mathew Tait 鈥 Came on for the unfortunate Jason Robinson at full-back, and tried to provide a bit of spark, but kicking game doesn鈥檛 look up to the position. 4
Bryn Palmer is the 大象传媒 Sport website鈥檚 rugby union editor.
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How you can give any of those players higher than a 5 is beyond me. I take it the 8 for Robinson is a poor consolation for getting injured! Another lifeless performance from an England team with no ideas. But who didn't see this coming? Is anybody actually shocked by this result, other than the fact that South Africa could have probably put 50+ on the board against us.
When we get knocked out of the WC by Samoa, I have a gut feeling that things wont change come the Six Nations in 2008.
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England failed to score a single point yet only 4 starting players scored less then 5????????????
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No offence man, since I'm a Scot, but you guys just got murdered. How can you be handing out 5s and 6s? The English guy in the pub on 5-live said it - 'we were lucky to get nil'. The Boks missed enough opportunities to score 60. I think you need to drop at least one point of every score - or how can you rate the Boks? They couldn't all get 10.
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I think that all of the england sxcores are a little high. Robinson was good and unluckly on the hamstring. Shaun Perry's england days should be over agter another appaling performance. but i think the worst person (or people) out there today were the england management. from tyhe beginning, after winning the world cup things were wrong and hopefully today they will finally realise. its time for out with the old and in with the new. after the worls cup england should get rid of all the oap's and start with a fresh young team to build for the next worldcup bewcause this one is over and england has been shamed.
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Way, way too generous......not one of them deserved over 4.....a bad mix of has-beens and never-will-bes, and a frankly embarrassing attempt at defending a World Cup.
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The scores are fair. Picking them apart would be unfair on the players and Ashton who've simply played the hand they were dealt. I lay the blame for the causes of this debacle squarely at the door of the RFU for failing to build on RWC '03. Well played SA. Some hard work required before Samoa. Let's hope the wounded World Champions still have some pride left to play for before they are eventually put out out of their misery. Swing low sweet chariot..
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With the exception possibly of Robinson, I think the ratings are excessively generous in almost every case.
Froggie.
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What a mess! As I started the ball rolling after the last fiasco, thought I'd do it again here...
These scores are too generous. OK so the Springboks look well drilled and have some flair in key positions but England currently have no game plan. We still persist in slow recycled ball, kick badly and too frequently and never get over the gain line. Too often turned over or beaten to the 2nd or third phase.
We need creativity... with a none-too-mobile pack, we need fast ball to decisive runners... I said move Lewsey to fall back, before, now I scream it! He brings solid tackling and links well with the 3/4s. Let Ceuto loose on the wing, where he will run straight, get Sackey off - he's out of his depth, and where was the pace? - and allow Tait a chance at outside centre.
We need the strength of Gormasall linking with the quick thinking of Jonny. I'm still uncertain on inside centre... entertain me!
the forwards... i agree with the TV pundits, get rid of Corry, he's always been too slow for the modern international, bring in Moody with Easter and Rees. And can we have Brian Moore back at hooker?
Hey, we're not going past a qtr final now, so lets see some more dynamic play from the youngsters we have taken. Make the changes England!
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When are England going to move on and when can we see the back of Brian Ashton. Today's performance was a disgrace. Wake up.
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This should come as no surprise. After last saturdays appaling debacle against USA iit was always going to happen.
Now blood the next generation for four years time which is what we should have been doing at this world cup. Its almoat too late again.
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Shame about Robinson's injury. England's best player by miles. Apart from him, the England backs had the cutting edge of a rolling pin.
Can't comment on the forwards. Can't say I noticed them outside of the scrum.
By the way, why did the ref only play advantage for South Africa? Don't accuse me of England bias - I'm Welsh.
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No quible with the scores or comment. To do so would be unfair to th players and Ashton who've simply played the hand they were dealt. I aportion blame for the gap between the 2 sides squarley at the door of the RFU who missed a chance to build on the success of RWC '03. Well played SA. Let's hope the champions have something left in the tank to restore some pride against Samoa before they are eventually put out of their misery. Swing low sweet chariot..
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I agree with the majority of the ratings but was pretty disappointed with Kay and Mark Regan for the lineout shambles. Overall the pack didn't compete in any facet the with 'Boks and with slow ball available and Perry's diabolical decision making it was impossible to gauge whether anybody was up to it from 10 to 13... Sackey looked very shaky in defence...
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Some very generous awards above.How very sad.
How would Sackey get a 4? Was he really as useful as Tom rees???
We should consider the repercussions when we see the result against Samoa.
The last 20 minutes looked like a training game of the probables against the very unlikely.
This is no different than the games against Ireland or Wales in the Six nations.So many players just should not have been there and many of them weren't!
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I feel we need to change our attitude off the pitch. WE ARE STILL WORLD CHAMPIONS, let every other team we play know this. If we go down, we go down fighting!! Reproduce the same kind of energy and intensity in which we had 4/5 years ago. We have fine players in our squad, winners.
Before the moans and groans come, keep the faith!!!
This is the team i would play!
SHERIDAN FR
CHUTER H
STEVENS FR
KAY SR
CORRY SR
REES F
MOODY F
DALAGLIO 8
GOMARSALL SH
WILKO FH CAPTAIN
BARKLEY IC
FARRELL OC
TAIT W
LEWSEY W
ROBINSON FB
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Whitewashed and deservedly so. May have done better against a slow lady's hockey team, but not certain about that. Needs a thorough overhaul of players in all positions, but most of all needs new coach and captain. As a captain Martin Cory is not up to the job and as a coach and manager I wouldn't let Brian Ashton near a school team.
World Champions, not for long. I don't give this lot much chance against Samoa.
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To give Paul Sackey 4 points is excessively generous, I believe. He continually got sucked inside, giving Pietersen more than enough space to make his dangerous runs. Sackey's tackling was atrocious, as were his hesisant runs, which totally lacked conviction or confidence. Why was he not brought off? 2 points, more like it.
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I think you are being kind to Andy Farrell - I have never seen such 'brain dead' kicking from an England player. Why contine to kick long when time after time the Boks returned the ball deep into our own 22. Shaun Perry was also way out of his depth, and exposed by a great scrum half. The game against Samoa looks very 'loseable'!
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I'm surprised with your Andy Farrell score. I think that, because I am feeling generous, I would award him 2.
Jason Robinson was the only player who deserved any plaudits, as most of the rest were dire.
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Whitewashed and deservedly so. Need to go away and learn how to play rugby again.
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Hey this is how it is. England had to deliver, commeth the hour and minute, they failed.
Billed as a big confrontational game, it was all but won before a ball had been kicked.
The gameplan was simple by the south africans. Put high balls up, keep England pined in their own territory and they'll crack.
The battle of the minds and hearts was not present. The south africans were cool, calm, collected, clinical.
The english forwards neither penetrated the boks half, nor caused any serious concerns and certainly conceeded a woeful number of penalties.
You don't win games being in the wrong half and you don't play catch up rugby from your own half. England didn't threaten and only in the second half did they threaten, but when the game was lost. No this wasn't the jona lomu onslaught faced in South Africa, more the south africans starved and stole possession time and again, leaving England desperate and undecided when they had the ball.
Where was the fight, where was team dynamic. For all the talk of the england football team having to deliver, they talked the talk and walked the walk. Sadly, the england rugby team and fans have a long walk home, wondering how from being on top of the world to 4 years later being nothing, nobody contenders ? ?
forget injuries, on the best day, we put out our best team and there is no excuse for the discusting and woeful performance given. They should just come home now rather than face another humiliating defeat.
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England failed to score a single point yet only 4 players scored less then 5????????????
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Way, way too generous......not one of them deserved over 4.....a bad mix of has-beens and never-will-bes, and a frankly embarrassing attempt at defending a World Cup.
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The scores are fair. Picking them apart would be unfair on the players and Ashton who've simply played the hand they were dealt. I lay the blame for the causes of this debacle squarely at the door of the RFU for failing to build on RWC '03. Well played SA. Some hard work required before Samoa. Let's hope the wounded World Champions still have some pride left to play for before they are eventually put out out of their misery. Swing high sweet low..
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Pretty much agree with you. Was looking forward to Farrell playing 10/12, but seemed to me that apart from one decent kick, he was in league mode and thought he had all the time in the world to kick when he really didn't. Robinson by far the brightest spark, and this from a guy who's retiring. From my short -term memory, cannot think of a forward actually running on to the ball on the burst (nor a back for that matter). Where's the creativity, the quick ball, the surprises? We have to get used to the fact that we are solid second-third division in international rugby at the moment; we are one of those teams we used to brush aside with ease four years ago. World-beaters we are not.
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What can you say. SA were immense. The team gave their all and literlly sweated blood but they were outclassed, outfought, and outthought. I wonder if any other world cup holders have ever been soundly thrashed like this. The only Englishman who looked of real pedigree, (until his sad and career ending injury), was JR. He of no fixed abode.
I read an interview with Martin Johnson recently and he said that whle the English team was preparing for the immediate problems in front of them he would have thought that there was someone who was looking at the overall situation and preparing the next group of replacements. Clearly their wasn't and now the words back and drawing board come to mind!!
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Way, way too generous......not one of them deserved over 4.....a bad mix of has-beens and never-will-bes, and a frankly embarrassing attempt at defending a World Cup.
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This is the most disappointing game that I have ever seen in a world cup match involving England.
Mike Catt was bereft of ideas, Andy Farrell is not good enough to play at international level. The forwards were a complete disaster from the kick off. There was no leadership whatsever. The only person to come out of the game with any credit was Jason Robinson, who probably will not play again. The England management should make drastic changes before England play Samoa and not pick players on reputation.
I am Welsh but I am geniunely concerned that English International rugby is in meltdown mode.
Western Samoa will be very close if this performance is anything to go by.
Second rows kicking when 15 metres from the line, nobody supporting the player jumping for the high ball. Every kickoff and evry drop out being kicked down the centre of the field and immeadiaetly either run or kicked back with interest.
Absolutely shocking, I hope we are not as half bad Saturday or we will concede 60 points.
Get a grip England you cannot be as bad as this again.
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I think these ratings are very generous. They give an average of 5 per player - which would mean that England were ok, when in fact they were terrible.
Then again, perhaps the individual scores are right. That would mean the team is less than the sum of its parts or - which is probably the same thing - the coach's rating was a very large negative number.
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The scores are fair. Picking them apart would be unfair on the players and Ashton who've simply played the hand they were dealt. I lay the blame for the causes of this debacle squarely at the door of the RFU for failing to build on RWC '03. Well played SA. Some hard work required before Samoa. Let's hope the wounded World Champions still have some pride left to play for before they are eventually put out out of their misery. Swing low sweet chariot..
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Brian Ashton - 1
Woeful selection - woeful performance.
Perry surely was a 2 - looked totally and uterly out of his depth.
farrel and Catt - tally ineffectual with no pace
Noon - why was he playing?
robinson - what a blinder - I actually had tears in my eyes when he left the pitch - under the circumstances his greatest performance since the first Lions game 2001.
the decision to replace Moody with Ree said it all - I thought Rees has a pretty good game
I really wished James SD, Geraty, Flood, Cipriani, Tait, Flood, Haskell and even Varndell were around. What a disapointment. Still I'm off to France next week to see the Samoea game and it has more significance now
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Brian Ashton - 1
Woeful selection - woeful performance.
Perry surely was a 2 - looked totally and uterly out of his depth.
farrel and Catt - tally ineffectual with no pace
Noon - why was he playing?
robinson - what a blinder - I actually had tears in my eyes when he left the pitch - under the circumstances his greatest performance since the first Lions game 2001.
the decision to replace Moody with Ree said it all - I thought Rees has a pretty good game
I really wished James SD, Geraty, Flood, Cipriani, Tait, Flood, Haskell and even Varndell were around. What a disapointment. Still I'm off to France next week to see the Samoea game and it has more significance now
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As a Welshwoman not unhappy to see England lose!
Can't comment on the ratings - watched the game in a pub in Cardiff, but it was spoilt by a dodgy satellite somewhere and the picture was more broken up than Brian Ashton's heart probably is!
Hope (no, sure!) Wales can put up a better show against Oz tomorrow....
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With the exception of Robinson, your ratings actually suggest that England had other players on the park. Sorry that was worse than against the US. Absolutley abysmal.
Whatever Ashton does (I guess ritual Sepuku is out of order) he needs to find a spark of genius from somewhere or else the Samoans will roll them as well and to be honest I don't think that squad has it especially with the sad sight of Robinson limping off.
I think if I was a Samoan fan I'd be extending my hotel bookings.
I'd also like to say that if that is Jason Robinson's last game, I'd like to thanks him for the pleasure he's given this rugby fan(A Scots one at that)over the years, He is one of the best the sport has ever seen.
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To give Paul Sackey 4 points is excessively generous, I believe. He continually got drew inside, giving Pietersen more than enough space to make his dangerous runs. Sackey's tackling was atrocious, as were his hesitant runs, which totally lacked conviction or confidence. Why was he not brought off? 2 points, more like it.
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This is the most disappointing game that I have ever seen in a world cup match involving England.
Mike Catt was bereft of ideas, Andy Farrell is not good enough to play at international level. The forwards were a complete disaster from the kick off. There was no leadership whatsever. The only person to come out of the game with any credit was Jason Robinson, who probably will not play again. The England management should make drastic changes before England play Samoa and not pick players on reputation.
I am Welsh but I am geniunely concerned that English International rugby is in meltdown mode.
Western Samoa will be very close if this performance is anything to go by.
Second rows kicking when 15 metres from the line, nobody supporting the player jumping for the high ball. Every kickoff and evry drop out being kicked down the centre of the field and immeadiaetly either run or kicked back with interest.
Absolutely shocking, I hope we are not as half bad Saturday or we will concede 60 points.
Get a grip England you cannot be as bad as this again. Embarrising and I am a Welshman.
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This is the most disappointing game that I have ever seen in a world cup match involving England.
Mike Catt was bereft of ideas, Andy Farrell is not good enough to play at international level. The forwards were a complete disaster from the kick off. There was no leadership whatsever. The only person to come out of the game with any credit was Jason Robinson, who probably will not play again. The England management should make drastic changes before England play Samoa and not pick players on reputation.
I am Welsh but I am geniunely concerned that English International rugby is in meltdown mode.
Western Samoa will be very close if this performance is anything to go by.
Second rows kicking when 15 metres from the line, nobody supporting the player jumping for the high ball. Every kickoff and evry drop out being kicked down the centre of the field and immeadiaetly either run or kicked back with interest.
Absolutely shocking, I hope we are not as half bad Saturday or we will concede 60 points.
Get a grip England you cannot be as bad as this again. Embarrising and I am a Welshman.
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No quible with the scores or comment. To do so would be unfair to th players and Ashton who've simply played the hand they were dealt. I aportion blame for the gap between the 2 sides squarley at the door of the RFU who missed a chance to build on the success of RWC '03. Well played SA. Let's hope the champions have something left in the tank to restore some pride against Samoa before they are eventually put out of their misery. Swing low sweet chariot..
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What a beating
-2 for Farrell, you was terribl
Really 3 is too much for Perry
+1 for each of the front row.
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It is hard to see where England go from here.
They will call for replacements for (at least) Jason Robinson.
But there is so little spark, so little creativity and so little confidence. It's a big ask against Samoa and the Pacific Islanders could well end our World Cup.
But credit to the Boks - they played a very good game of rugby and soundly beat us without getting out of 3rd gear.
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I agree with the majority of the ratings but was pretty disappointed with Kay and Mark Regan for the lineout shambles. Overall the pack didn't compete in any facet the with 'Boks and with slow ball available and Perry's diabolical decision making it was impossible to gauge whether anybody was up to it from 10 to 13... Sackey looked very shaky in defence...
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This should come as no surprise. After last saturdays appaling debacle against USA iit was always going to happen.
Now blood the next generation for four years time which is what we should have been doing at this world cup. Its almoat too late again.
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Somebody needs to tell Andy Farrell that he鈥檚 playing Union now, not League. Every kick-off (and he had plenty of those) he kicked deep 鈥 as in League 鈥 and not once did he kick to a position where his forwards had a chance of retrieving the ball. Can鈥檛 blame him for all of England 鈥檚 woes, they were pretty useless before he was paid a fortune to come south but things won鈥檛 improve whilst they insist on kicking away possession!
Roger Cromwell
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Jason Robinson - big hand- reminder of what England were capable of a while back!
But, doesn't matter what the individual scores were - they got thumped. Time for the 'old farts' and team chairmans to think about how to sort this out. Let's face it, the RFU aren't going to make any money out of shirt sales any time soon!
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I feel we need to change our attitude off the pitch. WE ARE STILL WORLD CHAMPIONS, let every other team we play know this. If we go down, we go down fighting!! Reproduce the same kind of energy and intensity in which we had 4/5 years ago. We have fine players in our squad, winners.
Before the moans and groans come, keep the faith!!!
This is the team i would play!
SHERIDAN FR
CHUTER H
STEVENS FR
KAY SR
CORRY SR
REES F
MOODY F
DALAGLIO 8
GOMARSALL SH
WILKO FH CAPTAIN
BARKLEY IC
FARRELL OC
TAIT W
LEWSEY W
ROBINSON FB
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Way too nice for that display, I'd only salvage Jason Robinson, the only player who appeared to try and win the game, the other 14 had lost as soon as they got off the bus!!
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...well, what can you say to that? that was about as comprehensive as it gets! If I said this anywhere near the England camp even now I'd probably deservedly get shot down, but maybe we should CUT OUR LOSSES, throw the game vs Samoa (or just "play to our full potential" like today, the outcome would be the same) and look forward to the 6 nations, where excuses of needing an experienced side won't limit us to putting out a side with only one or two people able to make a line break, run a supporting line, or, god forbid, make an offload in the tackle to keep the ball moving. Let's just finally all get on the same page and realise this was never going to go the way of the optimistic English fan. There is no light at the end of this WC (what an appropriate acronym for English fans eh?) tunnel, but there could be a silver lining to the experience. I'm guessing that a few players that played in this campaign will feature again (those who are south of the 30yr border) and will use this result as much as all the others to mount a comeback over the next few years.
Time to look forward and cut our losses, I say. On the plus side,we should be able to overcome any hangover from this worldcup right quick... we SHOULD be able to...
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I feel we need to change our attitude off the pitch. WE ARE STILL WORLD CHAMPIONS, let every other team we play know this. If we go down, we go down fighting!! Reproduce the same kind of energy and intensity in which we had 4/5 years ago. We have fine players in our squad, winners.
Before the moans and groans come, keep the faith!!!
This is the team i would play!
SHERIDAN FR
CHUTER H
STEVENS FR
KAY SR
CORRY SR
REES F
MOODY F
DALAGLIO 8
GOMARSALL SH
WILKO FH CAPTAIN
BARKLEY IC
FARRELL OC
TAIT W
LEWSEY W
ROBINSON FB
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Pretty much agree with you. Was looking forward to Farrell playing 10/12, but seemed to me that apart from one decent kick, he was in league mode and thought he had all the time in the world to kick when he really didn't. Robinson by far the brightest spark, and this from a guy who's retiring. From my short -term memory, cannot think of a forward actually running on to the ball on the burst (nor a back for that matter). Where's the creativity, the quick ball, the surprises? We have to get used to the fact that we are solid second-third division in international rugby at the moment; we are one of those teams we used to brush aside with ease four years ago. World-beaters we are not.
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Hard to argue with this unfortunately - I've never been impressed with Perry at scrum half but tonight he was non-existent...
All the old problems of slow ball excaberated by the lack of confidence England showed with ball in hand. On this form I wonder if we can qualify from the group!
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How can you give rees a 4? he was hung out to dry by the backrow selection - easter and corry never got to the break down in time to help him. We'd have been better off replacing corry with moody.
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Whitewashed and deservedly so. Need to go away and learn how to play rugby again.
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The players must have been listening to the ITV commentary: almost sufficient excuse for such a dispirited, unintelligent display.
Eighty minutes of ignorance, errors and misunderstanding from the commercial channel: please will the 大象传媒 put some decent cash into their bid for the next tournament and spare us this unprofessional rubbish.
South Africa played pretty well.
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Pretty much agree with you. Was looking forward to Farrell playing 10/12, but seemed to me that apart from one decent kick, he was in league mode and thought he had all the time in the world to kick when he really didn't. Robinson by far the brightest spark, and this from a guy who's retiring. From my short -term memory, cannot think of a forward actually running on to the ball on the burst (nor a back for that matter). Where's the creativity, the quick ball, the surprises? We have to get used to the fact that we are solid second-third division in international rugby at the moment; we are one of those teams we used to brush aside with ease four years ago. World-beaters we are not.
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To give Paul Sackey 4 points is excessively generous, I believe. He continually got sucked inside, giving Pietersen more than enough space to make his dangerous runs. Sackey's tackling was atrocious, as were his hesisant runs, which totally lacked conviction or confidence. Why was he not brought off? 2 points, more like it.
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A total embarrasment , Robinson an 8 , the rest 1 each , 4 and 5 way to generous a rating !!!
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Who is responsible for this debacle? Who allowed a seriously under prepared English national side enter the World Cup? What I saw tonight was embarassing. Did the powers that be sit back on the sucess of our World Cup win four years ago assuming the game would not move on? The game in the Southern Hemisphere is phenominal, did no one see this development?
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Brian Ashton - 1
Woeful selection - woeful performance.
Perry surely was a 2 - looked totally and uterly out of his depth.
farrel and Catt - tally ineffectual with no pace
Noon - why was he playing?
robinson - what a blinder - I actually had tears in my eyes when he left the pitch - under the circumstances his greatest performance since the first Lions game 2001.
the decision to replace Moody with Ree said it all - I thought Rees has a pretty good game
I really wished James SD, Geraty, Flood, Cipriani, Tait, Flood, Haskell and even Varndell were around. What a disapointment. Still I'm off to France next week to see the Samoea game and it has more significance now
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Very generous with some of those ratings Sir. I thought Corry was absolutely awful and i'm sure his Win/Loss record as a captain is reflective of the poor, single minded, unenthusiastic approach that he uses.
Ben Kay needs to attend some Psycology classes to unearth just why he thinks that he is an acute world class kicker with the uncanny nack of being able to slot little grubber kicks that equal to Tries.
The RFU needs to do something with its structure, as does the northern hemisphere. Perhaps they should colaborate with the Welsh, Irish, Scottish, French and Italian Unions to get sothing similar to the Super 14 going on, which will result in more top players playing together week in week out, as well as playing club rugby. They really need to get sorted.
Got to give some major Props to Jason Robinson though, he gave it all even though the players around him seemed dis-interested lethargic and confused to whether they were playing Rugby or watching a fine 大象传媒 Sitcom (Well, maybe thats what the South Africans thought they were playing). Robinson is a hearty lion in which cannot be replaced, its a shame his highly distinguished career ended on such a low note, he will be missed.
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This is the most disappointing game that I have ever seen in a world cup match involving England.
Mike Catt was bereft of ideas, Andy Farrell is not good enough to play at international level. The forwards were a complete disaster from the kick off. There was no leadership whatsever. The only person to come out of the game with any credit was Jason Robinson, who probably will not play again. The England management should make drastic changes before England play Samoa and not pick players on reputation.
I am Welsh but I am geniunely concerned that English International rugby is in meltdown mode.
Western Samoa will be very close if this performance is anything to go by.
Second rows kicking when 15 metres from the line, nobody supporting the player jumping for the high ball. Every kickoff and evry drop out being kicked down the centre of the field and immeadiaetly either run or kicked back with interest.
Absolutely shocking, I hope we are not as half bad Saturday or we will concede 60 points.
Get a grip England you cannot be as bad as this again.
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Where was the game plan?
Where were the basic skills?
Where was the passion?
It is the lack of urgency which most depresses the average England fan. Josh Lewsey`s body language as he halfheartedly sidefooted that ball into touch towards the end of the match spoke volumes. He was ashamed of his own team.
If it is a set ploy to allow a second row like Kay to appear on the end of a threequarter move then why would he aimlessly punt the ball straight into the arms of a defender? Apparently Plan A involved running into a green wall and aimlessly recycling the ball....there appeared to be no Plan B.
Some chap from Stratford Upon Avon once wrote "something is rotten in the state of Denmark".....I think that this is the case with `Team England`. A country with our playing resources might well lose to South Africa but they should at least give the appearance of believing that they have a chance. When the only true resistance comes from the efforts of one man (even one as admirable as Robinson) then the `team` is finished. Without true team spirit we are nothing.
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England had clear vision for 3-4 years. Result a win in the 2003 World Cup. Super fit individuals, expert skill training, professional efforts to be the fastest, strongest most skillful individuals and team. Competing for places. Training as a team together to get possession, cross the gain line,to suck in defenders, weaken opposition defence then instant attack into weak areas. Win by improving 100s of areas as individuals and in teamwork. Great vision fully funded by RFU. Result national pride and a huge growth in English rugby. RFU success. Was the lesson learnt?
What a contrast 2004-7. RFU remove the vision and funds. Individuals fight for turf and egos. No working together aiming to create a winning team. Result a national team and RFU to pity. Each player tried hard. They were sent out just not equipped as individuals or with teamwork and strategy. Now the result hurts, losers losing badly. Empty seats and falling player numbers. RFU flops.
Has the lesson been learnt? In the real world a dynamic leadership would take over. Turn potential into success.
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This is the most disappointing game that I have ever seen in a world cup match involving England.
Mike Catt was bereft of ideas, Andy Farrell is not good enough to play at international level. The forwards were a complete disaster from the kick off. There was no leadership whatsever. The only person to come out of the game with any credit was Jason Robinson, who probably will not play again. The England management should make drastic changes before England play Samoa and not pick players on reputation.
I am Welsh but I am geniunely concerned that English International rugby is in meltdown mode.
Western Samoa will be very close if this performance is anything to go by.
Second rows kicking when 15 metres from the line, nobody supporting the player jumping for the high ball. Every kickoff and evry drop out being kicked down the centre of the field and immeadiaetly either run or kicked back with interest.
Absolutely shocking, I hope we are not as half bad Saturday or we will concede 60 points.
Get a grip England you cannot be as bad as this again. Embarrising and I am a Welshman.
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Outplayed in every department bar fullback. But also well and truly beaten up without sight of a single bloodied Boks shirt.
We need to change to an all red strip cos the white shows us up for what we are - bleeding lightweights.
Inspite of this, someone needs to point out to the French ref that he is supposed to referee both sides.
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Ok so England lost. But by God I expected at least 15 points. There is no way in hell Samoa will come away from either of their next two games with zero points. We may not get out of the group!
So sad to see Billy Wiz's body finally give in when his heart was still in it. Shame nobody else showed up and performed this evening. I suspect that was the last time we will see him on the pitch.
As for England...well not suprised really. Have to say it was the old heads who at least contested today. The younger players were frankly out of their depth. They tried but just weren't good enough - plain and simple. SA played as well as they needed to without giving up any points. Their confidence should be sky high. They are capable of a lot more, and no doubt we will see it.
England's premiership clubs maybe some of the richest in the world, but they are not helping the national team's cause. The southern hemisphere teams are loving it. A flood of their players come over in between world cups to earn some pound sterling and return just in time for the next WC. In the mean time they take up critical places in positions and squads all over the country that should be filled with young English talent. Same applies to football. La Liga in Spain was the most glamorous league in the world in the 80's....where did that get them? The English premiership (football) as fallen into the same trap. Can anyone name 20 English under-21 players who are solid 1st choice players in the premiership? Sure we have the best players in the world playing in the best league, but HOW MANY ARE ENGLISH? 60% if you're lucky.
We must stem the tide of foreign players....its not hurting English rugby. Its killing it.
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This is the most disappointing game that I have ever seen in a world cup match involving England.
Mike Catt was bereft of ideas, Andy Farrell is not good enough to play at international level. The forwards were a complete disaster from the kick off. There was no leadership whatsever. The only person to come out of the game with any credit was Jason Robinson, who probably will not play again. The England management should make drastic changes before England play Samoa and not pick players on reputation.
I am Welsh but I am geniunely concerned that English International rugby is in meltdown mode.
Western Samoa will be very close if this performance is anything to go by.
Second rows kicking when 15 metres from the line, nobody supporting the player jumping for the high ball. Every kickoff and evry drop out being kicked down the centre of the field and immeadiaetly either run or kicked back with interest.
Absolutely shocking, I hope we are not as half bad Saturday or we will concede 60 points.
Get a grip England you cannot be as bad as this again. Embarrising and I am a Welshman.
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You are very wrong, and on a catastrphic scale. 2 men you haven't given half the respect they needed tonight are Tom Rees, the only man who got to pretty much every breakdown, but unable to impose himself due to our other incompetant backrow forwards.
Another man you have FAILED to give enough credit to is Lewis Moody, who really did change things in the last 20 when he was brought on. the breakdown was more aggressive, and we managed to retain our own ball!
[underline/]Martin Corry needs to go.[/underline/]
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...well, what can you say to that? that was about as comprehensive as it gets! If I said this anywhere near the England camp even now I'd probably deservedly get shot down, but maybe we should CUT OUR LOSSES, throw the game vs Samoa (or just "play to our full potential" like today, the outcome would be the same) and look forward to the 6 nations, where excuses of needing an experienced side won't limit us to putting out a side with only one or two people able to make a line break, run a supporting line, or, god forbid, make an offload in the tackle to keep the ball moving. Let's just finally all get on the same page and realise this was never going to go the way of the optimistic English fan. There is no light at the end of this WC (what an appropriate acronym for English fans eh?) tunnel, but there could be a silver lining to the experience. I'm guessing that a few players that played in this campaign will feature again (those who are south of the 30yr border) and will use this result as much as all the others to mount a comeback over the next few years.
Time to look forward and cut our losses, I say. On the plus side,we should be able to overcome any hangover from this worldcup right quick... we SHOULD be able to...
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Sounds about right. "Scrum-time" is one of the most modish, senseless and lame cliches going. "In the scrums..."?
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no-one scores NIL POINTS, oh dear
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My only hope was that BA was hiding his best players as a strategic play. To advance second means Wales or Australia whom we should be able to beat with all the best players playing
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What an awful way for Jason Robinson to end his career, was the only englishman with any courage, creativity or skill in that performance.
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It's really hard to write this. My emotions are high.
I have been with the England team through good times and bad over the last 13 years but it's been a long time since I've felt as bad as i do right now.
I watched every agonising second of this debacle in a Soho bar next to a group of Boks.
After the game I had to shake the hand of every one of them - they kicked our ass.
That's all I can really say.
England - you've gave me nothing tonight.
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How can you give any of the players anything above 2 or 3??
I'm not trying to take anything away from a great Springbok squad, but not scoring a single point in the match and you're giving guys scores of 5 or 6 - do they just have to turn up to get these marks? Because that's all they did.
I suggest getting a little realistic - it was shambolic and I'd give just about everyone (outside of Robinson, Easter and Gommersall) minus points without losing sleep.
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It's really hard to write this. My emotions are high.
I have been with the England team through good times and bad over the last 13 years but it's been a long time since I've felt as bad as i do right now.
I watched every agonising second of this debacle in a Soho bar next to a group of Boks.
After the game I had to shake the hand of every one of them - they kicked our ass.
That's all I can really say.
England - you gave me nothing tonight.
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England were always on the back foot. Lacked pace at the breakdown, ball wasnt recycled quick enough by the forwards, and we didnt keep the ball in hand long enough to build momentum going forward. Worst England performance ive seen!
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absolutely shocking performance by England, one of the few times i have actually been ashamed of this team, and certainly probably the only time i have ever walked out on a match.
i saw very few sparks in what looked like a team completely lacking any type of idea in how to play international rugby and once again any breaks were ruined by poor basic skills and no ability to finish a move.
I am utterly appalled by this performance, and the only reassurance is that the players themselves will be immensly disappointed in their performance.
Lets only hope that the build up to the next WC has an infinitly better structure, without the waste of time Robinson proved to be.
At least we can only get better....
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How Rees can be rated lower than Corry and Easter really makes me think if we were watching the same game. Rees was constantly the first player to the breakdown only to be faced by three or four South African's and no support from the other two back rowers. I would like to see Richy McCaw or George Smith play with Easter and Corry and do much better than Rees did.
Easter was missing for the whole game except for one pop out of the tackle. He was driven backwards or didnt make any ground, as was Corry, on numerous occasions.
What should be said is that its a criminal offence that English coaches continually keep Corry and other slow undynamic back-row players on the pitch and take off quick players that break the gain line and get around the pitch. Moody should have come on for Corry or Easter and then at least Rees may have had some support.
How Brian Ashton must be cursing his decision not to take Haskell and Ward-Smith.
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How could we roll over so easily?
We have wasted an opportunity to 'blood' the nucleus of the 2011 squad with similar results to whay could be expected of those young guns
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Sat and watched for the whole game without hardly a stir of optimism at England's performance - never felt like this in 40 years of watching !Would be great to be able to argue with at least some of the ratings but sadly no can do ! Alarming lack of pace in all areas when compared with their Bok counterparts . Sadly it was the same story with England's creativity or lack of it . Put simply , they were controlled for the entire match by a bunch of guys who looked as though they relished the challenge and enjoyed putting their game plan into action . England played as much as they were allowed and note one important fact -the Boks discipline was such that they did not concede one penalty that was within goal kicking range ! Hard to recall a more dominant display since Scotland's 10 - 68 loss to S.A. - Murrayfield , I think 1997 ? Where next for Ashton's not so merry men ? Wish I was smart enough to know the answer to that one ! Jonny would have helped but cannot see how he could have stopped the bleeding . Gommers to start - sorry Shaun - Nightmare !! Rees and Moody also for 80 mins please - plus anyone with some pace ! Rest of the forwards need some fresh ideas - sheer brute force alone is just not enough ! Critical ? I guess so but tinged with a little honesty ! Regroup - rethink and at best - look forward to being knocked out in the quarters I fear - will be chuffed to bits if I am wrong ( as wife says I always am ! )
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Don't agree with any of those ratings?
How could you rate Sheridan & Regan the same? Sheridan had an top game - held his own - only him & J.R looked international standard. Regan was atrocious.
Likewise Shaw & Kay? Shaw wasn't great but kay was truly woeful - worst player on the pitch, even more than Perry.
Thought Sackey looked lively when he got the ball & did nothing wrong in defence or attack. Did more than Catt, Farrell & Noon together.
Agree with Rees - not sure what people are rating him on - can only be his age. He was completely anonymous bar losing turnovers & being driven backwards.
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For a team that failed to score a single point and never really looked dangerous these ratings are generous.
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Outplayed in every department bar fullback. But also well and truly beaten up without sight of a single bloodied Boks shirt.
We need to change to an all red strip cos the white shows us up for what we are - bleeding lightweights.
Inspite of this, someone needs to point out to the French ref that he is supposed to referee both sides.
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.... didnt see the game.....
wouldnt mind getting england later on in the draw!
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For a team that failed to score a single point and never really looked dangerous these ratings are generous.
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we should be totally ashamed of the performance. I'm loathe to criticise Ashton, I don't think he's ever had the time or resources to mount a creditable defence of the title, but I think he has reverted to conservatism just when our only hope is all out adventure. I thought Rees had been dealt a bum hand ever since I saw the team sheet - Corry and Easter just didn't offer him any support at the breakdown. To me he was the best England forward on the park - he tried hard and got to the break down - is it any wonder he suffered when he was competing against 2-3 boks on the front foot. Having said that credit must go to Sheridan and Stevens who did all that can be asked of them (Sheridan destroyed his opposite number) and we turned the bok scrum over.
I think the first time Lewsey received the ball from a team mate was in the 71st minute
The one thing to take from this game is we don't know how good the bocks are - they were not tested - we really were that bad and getting out of the pool stages now looks tricky!
Part of me is thinking a failure here might force the RFU to act and put in place the structures required to build a decent team again - but I'm not sure if they know how. I'm pretty sure we need to reduce the number of games our top guys play. never mind the quantity, lets feel the quality
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Well Done to the Boks!
How can you rate any of the English side over 4 when they were dismal??
Like the score said "ZERO" and thats the only score that team deserved!
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Well Done to the Boks!
How can you rate any of the English side over 4 when they were dismal??
Like the score said "ZERO" and thats the only score that team deserved!
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absolutely shocking performance by England, one of the few times i have actually been ashamed of this team, and certainly probably the only time i have ever walked out on a match.
i saw very few sparks in what looked like a team completely lacking any type of idea in how to play international rugby and once again any breaks were ruined by poor basic skills and no ability to finish a move.
I am utterly appalled by this performance, and the only reassurance is that the players themselves will be immensly disappointed in their performance.
Lets only hope that the build up to the next WC has an infinitly better structure, without the waste of time Robinson proved to be.
At least we can only get better....
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Embarrassing performance. I don't think anyone expected England to win but to not even make the scoreboard was beyond belief. To their credit, South Africa were clinical in their assault, but England gave far too much away and made it too easy for SA. The only player that stepped up to the plate, and put in the extra effort required when playing the third best team in the world, was Jason Robinson. A few did their jobs to the best of their abilities but others seriously didn't even perform the basics. Do they cover kicking in training? I bet even Portugal would fancy their chances against England at the moment!
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I watched in the USA paid $30 for the privilege and even took time off work to ensure I didnt miss a thing. What a waste of time. None of them deserve more than a 3 except for Robinson who played with his heart and soul so I agree with your 8 rating for him. I would give Sackey zero. He ambled along had no defence and looked out of his depth (or was it scared). Unfortunately I have no magic formula for success. Maybe losing to Samoa would be the best thing to allow us to start afresh and build for the future
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How could we roll over so easily?
We have wasted an opportunity to 'blood' the nucleus of the 2011 squad with similar results to thos expected of those young guns
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Sheridan 8
1 of the few to compete Vs his number. Fought hard, tailed off near end. Top game
Regan 4
Real let down. Anonymous in loose, throwing awful, 1 of many to look like he鈥檇 rather be elsewhere
Stevens 6
Front-row wasnt bad. Silly pens, not effective as Sheridan but good
Kay 3
Horrendous. How'd he stay on? Moody then Borthwick should鈥檝e replaced him. Dropped ball, sideways runs, lost lineouts, what was that kick?
Shaw 6
OK. Watched him close. Couldnt fault effort, lots of unseen work /good hits. Needed /expected more, but far better than Kay
Corry 6
He鈥檒l get stick no doubt but in top 4 or 5 for effort. Symbols lack of flair/cluelessness. Dropped ball, lost turnovers to backs yet still best of 4-8, sums it up
Rees 4
Really disappointing. Watched USA game again - though 1 of the better ones, only 2 or 3 moments of note from him. Even less today. Slow to breakdowns, lost turnovers, largely anonymous. I鈥檇 have kept him on but can see why B.A didn't
Easter 5
Interesting. Like 20/20 today 鈥 does he sum up lack of quality in domestic game? Impresses highly at club level, deserves chance but brings nothing from that to internationals. Where were the running lines? Pick & go鈥檚? Drives? Far better in 2nd-half, but lost alarming turnovers. Like cricketers 鈥 maybe proven internationals are better than top club players
Perry 4
Awful again. In June, not in my top 8 S/Hs. Brilliant in all 3 warm-up鈥檚 but back to old today. Masterclass by DuPreez. Clueless kicking -far far too slow. Though, who else is there?
Catt 5
Anonymous for fly-half. Not a 10 ok, but didn鈥檛 attempt the right tactics. Where were testing kicks to Monty? Kicks behind Pieterson? Exploting inexperienced centres? What he did was ok but but it was more what he didn鈥檛 do
Sackey 6.5
Given no ball. When he looked ok. Good not great in defence and attack. Looked V lively, but left with no support, handing off 3 men. Deserves next start
Farrell 4.5
No better /worse than men either side of him. Aimless kicking, poor passing, slow running. Even strength never helped him. He鈥檇 struggle in League now
Noon 4
Epitomy of failings. Given little to work with & not as bad as Kay. But have you ever known a centre so lacking in any handling skills? Flair? Side step? Pace? It鈥檚 just endless 鈥渉ead down run into them.鈥 Lost as many turnovers as was supposed to win. Tackling ok, but when opposition run at you for 80 mins even that'll fail as it did. Could be blessing if JSD, Cipriani, Erinle comes in
Lewsey 6
Not a winger. Should鈥檝e moved up line. 1 top tackle. All he did, he did fine but that took 30 secs of 80 mins
Robinson 9
Head & shoulders over anyone. Almost S.A V Jason Robinson. Only WC player whose standards, effort, fitness, ability hasn't dropped. Hope it's not it. 1 of the best sportsmen I鈥檝e seen in my life. Oh for 15 of him
Chuter 4
See Regan
Moody 5
Disappointing in small time on. Expected to see him everywhere. Lot to prove but didn鈥檛 see him once.
Gomarsall 7
Big improvement on Perry, but no guarantee he鈥檒l not be awful next game. Better kicking & urgency & deserves a start.
Tait 5
I just don鈥檛 see the same in Tait that everyone else seems to. Did little wrong tonight & I know he鈥檚 never had a run in his club position (whatever that actually is) but still looks a bit short of class at this level in all his cameos鈥. Lacks a little strength, drops balls, cannot kick & loses turnover too much even when out of position. Still deserves a start at 13 but have seen nothing to suggest he鈥檚 our long term centre.
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Sheridan 8
1 of the few to compete Vs his number. Fought hard, tailed off near end. Top game
Regan 4
Real let down. Anonymous in loose, throwing awful, 1 of many to look like he鈥檇 rather be elsewhere
Stevens 6
Front-row wasnt bad. Silly pens, not effective as Sheridan but good
Kay 3
Horrendous. How'd he stay on? Moody then Borthwick should鈥檝e replaced him. Dropped ball, sideways runs, lost lineouts, what was that kick?
Shaw 6
OK. Watched him close. Couldnt fault effort, lots of unseen work /good hits. Needed /expected more, but far better than Kay
Corry 6
He鈥檒l get stick no doubt but in top 4 or 5 for effort. Symbols lack of flair/cluelessness. Dropped ball, lost turnovers to backs yet still best of 4-8, sums it up
Rees 4
Really disappointing. Watched USA game again - though 1 of the better ones, only 2 or 3 moments of note from him. Even less today. Slow to breakdowns, lost turnovers, largely anonymous. I鈥檇 have kept him on but can see why B.A didn't
Easter 5
Interesting. Like 20/20 today 鈥 does he sum up lack of quality in domestic game? Impresses highly at club level, deserves chance but brings nothing from that to internationals. Where were the running lines? Pick & go鈥檚? Drives? Far better in 2nd-half, but lost alarming turnovers. Like cricketers 鈥 maybe proven internationals are better than top club players
Perry 4
Awful again. In June, not in my top 8 S/Hs. Brilliant in all 3 warm-up鈥檚 but back to old today. Masterclass by DuPreez. Clueless kicking -far far too slow. Though, who else is there?
Catt 5
Anonymous for fly-half. Not a 10 ok, but didn鈥檛 attempt the right tactics. Where were testing kicks to Monty? Kicks behind Pieterson? Exploting inexperienced centres? What he did was ok but but it was more what he didn鈥檛 do
Sackey 6.5
Given no ball. When he looked ok. Good not great in defence and attack. Looked V lively, but left with no support, handing off 3 men. Deserves next start
Farrell 4.5
No better /worse than men either side of him. Aimless kicking, poor passing, slow running. Even strength never helped him. He鈥檇 struggle in League now
Noon 4
Epitomy of failings. Given little to work with & not as bad as Kay. But have you ever known a centre so lacking in any handling skills? Flair? Side step? Pace? It鈥檚 just endless 鈥渉ead down run into them.鈥 Lost as many turnovers as was supposed to win. Tackling ok, but when opposition run at you for 80 mins even that'll fail as it did. Could be blessing if JSD, Cipriani, Erinle comes in
Lewsey 6
Not a winger. Should鈥檝e moved up line. 1 top tackle. All he did, he did fine but that took 30 secs of 80 mins
Robinson 9
Head & shoulders over anyone. Almost S.A V Jason Robinson. Only WC player whose standards, effort, fitness, ability hasn't dropped. Hope it's not it. 1 of the best sportsmen I鈥檝e seen in my life. Oh for 15 of him
Chuter 4
See Regan
Moody 5
Disappointing in small time on. Expected to see him everywhere. Lot to prove but didn鈥檛 see him once.
Gomarsall 7
Big improvement on Perry, but no guarantee he鈥檒l not be awful next game. Better kicking & urgency & deserves a start.
Tait 5
I just don鈥檛 see the same in Tait that everyone else seems to. Did little wrong tonight & I know he鈥檚 never had a run in his club position (whatever that actually is) but still looks a bit short of class at this level in all his cameos鈥. Lacks a little strength, drops balls, cannot kick & loses turnover too much even when out of position. Still deserves a start at 13 but have seen nothing to suggest he鈥檚 our long term centre.
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Sheridan 8
1 of the few to compete Vs his number. Fought hard, tailed off near end. Top game
Regan 4
Real let down. Anonymous in loose, throwing awful, 1 of many to look like he鈥檇 rather be elsewhere
Stevens 6
Front-row wasnt bad. Silly pens, not effective as Sheridan but good
Kay 3
Horrendous. How'd he stay on? Moody then Borthwick should鈥檝e replaced him. Dropped ball, sideways runs, lost lineouts, what was that kick?
Shaw 6
OK. Watched him close. Couldnt fault effort, lots of unseen work /good hits. Needed /expected more, but far better than Kay
Corry 6
He鈥檒l get stick no doubt but in top 4 or 5 for effort. Symbols lack of flair/cluelessness. Dropped ball, lost turnovers to backs yet still best of 4-8, sums it up
Rees 4
Really disappointing. Watched USA game again - though 1 of the better ones, only 2 or 3 moments of note from him. Even less today. Slow to breakdowns, lost turnovers, largely anonymous. I鈥檇 have kept him on but can see why B.A didn't
Easter 5
Interesting. Like 20/20 today 鈥 does he sum up lack of quality in domestic game? Impresses highly at club level, deserves chance but brings nothing from that to internationals. Where were the running lines? Pick & go鈥檚? Drives? Far better in 2nd-half, but lost alarming turnovers. Like cricketers 鈥 maybe proven internationals are better than top club players
Perry 4
Awful again. In June, not in my top 8 S/Hs. Brilliant in all 3 warm-up鈥檚 but back to old today. Masterclass by DuPreez. Clueless kicking -far far too slow. Though, who else is there?
Catt 5
Anonymous for fly-half. Not a 10 ok, but didn鈥檛 attempt the right tactics. Where were testing kicks to Monty? Kicks behind Pieterson? Exploting inexperienced centres? What he did was ok but but it was more what he didn鈥檛 do
Sackey 6.5
Given no ball. When he looked ok. Good not great in defence and attack. Looked V lively, but left with no support, handing off 3 men. Deserves next start
Farrell 4.5
No better /worse than men either side of him. Aimless kicking, poor passing, slow running. Even strength never helped him. He鈥檇 struggle in League now
Noon 4
Epitomy of failings. Given little to work with & not as bad as Kay. But have you ever known a centre so lacking in any handling skills? Flair? Side step? Pace? It鈥檚 just endless 鈥渉ead down run into them.鈥 Lost as many turnovers as was supposed to win. Tackling ok, but when opposition run at you for 80 mins even that'll fail as it did. Could be blessing if JSD, Cipriani, Erinle comes in
Lewsey 6
Not a winger. Should鈥檝e moved up line. 1 top tackle. All he did, he did fine but that took 30 secs of 80 mins
Robinson 9
Head & shoulders over anyone. Almost S.A V Jason Robinson. Only WC player whose standards, effort, fitness, ability hasn't dropped. Hope it's not it. 1 of the best sportsmen I鈥檝e seen in my life. Oh for 15 of him
Chuter 4
See Regan
Moody 5
Disappointing in small time on. Expected to see him everywhere. Lot to prove but didn鈥檛 see him once.
Gomarsall 7
Big improvement on Perry, but no guarantee he鈥檒l not be awful next game. Better kicking & urgency & deserves a start.
Tait 5
I just don鈥檛 see the same in Tait that everyone else seems to. Did little wrong tonight & I know he鈥檚 never had a run in his club position (whatever that actually is) but still looks a bit short of class at this level in all his cameos鈥. Lacks a little strength, drops balls, cannot kick & loses turnover too much even when out of position. Still deserves a start at 13 but have seen nothing to suggest he鈥檚 our long term centre.
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I think anyone with half a brain could see that England weren't going to be able to defend their crown. Why then did Ashton insist on bringing a load of 30 somethings who won't be around in 4 years when we could make a (potentially realistic) challenge. Of the starting 22 today you could only realistically say that Rees, Sheridan, Stevens and Tait will be around come the next world cup. What a shame that the coach is not a man with the vision to build for the future. Regardless of whether we make it out of the group or get battered by NZ in the quarters, the coach will be unable to take a single positive from this campaign as he won't even have blooded a crop of talented youngsters with the hunger to succeed in future tournaments.
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I thought the English game was naive at best. They were outplayed in EVERY facet of the game, perhaps except for the occasional scrum. If this is the best group of players available, then there is something very wrong with the coaching! The England defence was almost non-existent with gaps everywhere. There was no pace in the England game and what ball they got they squandered by kicking away. There will be many thousands -if not millions- of English heartily ashamed tonight :-((
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I don't agree with the Tom Rees statement.
Brian Ashton brought moody on to provide some pace and momentum into the team,
but he took of one of two players who were providing that, Rees. He should have taken Corry off, Corry being his old boring self, no flair, no pace, just a bit of brutality which is easily matched by any man with a bit of muscle.
Get Farrell and Catt off the team now, i don't care what any one can say, they are too slow and old to be international players. Get Corry out, find a hooker that can throw the ball in straight, with accuracy, and actually think tactically rather than what looks flash and cool. At the first few line-outs you keep it simple and call it safe.
We need to scrap this World Cup, there is no hope for England in the most positive of situations, and i am forever an optimist. Think about 2011, think about developing with the new younger set of players, and for god's sake, get back Clive Woodward! :)
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Obviously having problems with the website due to multiple posts.
Basically, agree with the majority of posts...ratings are too generous for a team that failed to score a point and rarely, if ever, looked dangerous.
I am an Irishman and can't help but wonder if a similar fate awaits us...
Still, if England do get out of the pool stage, whoever they meet in the quarters must be licking their chops!!!
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We were never going to defend our crown at this world cup - so why not take the youngsters? Losing I can take, if we lose playing well and particularly with good young players who have some potential. But losing by a whitewash, playing with zero imagination and no cutting edge, with a squad of thirty year-olds, is beyind pointless. Such a shame Ashton lost his bottle after 6N - if we'd lost to the Boks with Geraghty, Flood, Haskell, Sinbad et al I wouldn't feel nearly so let down.
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I watched the game in New Zealand - a nation that gives compliments to foreign rugby players grudgingly.People here were full of praise for Jason Robinson and not just because he was the only England player of true international class that played against SA.He played well to deal with all those aerial balls and to provide the only cutting edge in attack that England possess. If his injury is serious he will be missed.
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we do not learn in anything we do in sport in our country, the fact is they are paid to perform & they dont its an embrasment. they need to stand up and be counted now
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Sad to say the team today looked like Robinson was back in charge.
It is time to stop putting faith in old old heads and people who cant convert from league. We should be good enough so that we dont need the likes of Farrell.
How can we have 2 sides in the euro cup final and not be competing internationally. It is time to blood the kids. Get rid of Corry, he cannot lead and lacks any charisma on the pitch.
Scores ridiculous apart from good old Jason - he tried despite being 33 - but sums up the ridiculous situation that we are relying on him.
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Not pleasant viewing, added to the French calamity a big down for NH rugby. Its easy to criticise the RFU but its the clubs who are driving the need for non-nationals, and its the over-reliance on these that is ruining English (and French) rugby. This also has a knock-on effect on the Celtic nations who are forced into the same to remain competitive in the Heineken. A massive reduction in the grants from the RFU to clubs who persist in recruiting these players, not the increase that seems to have been negotiated to replace the Long-form agreement.
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Start building the side to win 2011.
No more old and bold players. They were great and were part of a Team.
We need to build a Team and should have started from the next match following the last cup final.
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strange, no comments from any S Africans??? Filtered out by the democracy perhaps, anyway good idea to change the shirts from red on a white background. won't show the bleeding disgrace so much.
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I'll applaud and embellish a comment above: England, 50 million people, trillions of pounds, 200 years of rugby. New Zealand, 4 million people, a blip on the economic radar, 100 years of rugby. PLEASE get them on the pitch together -- it's what the RFU needs to wake up to their abysmal management, in case 0-36 to SA and the looming loss to Samoa won't be enough.
These misguided chaps wrapping themselves in the Big Red Rose and twaddling on about 2003 are of the same mindset as those at RFU who captained this woeful ship onto the rocks
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This is the first England game I've watched in 2 years - now that I'm living in Australia. I went to ALL England matches in 2003 and knew we would win every single game - each player then believed and had the ability but mostly they played as one team, not 15 frightened school boys. I've not seen such an inept performance since the 1987 WC against Wales. There was no believe, no guts, no one wanted to be there. They were a bunch of scared rabbits. Who let Perry wear an England shirt?! He looked like someone from the down the pub had jumped over the fence and ran on for a laugh. Get rid of Corry - he's past it, never really was in form in his life was he? Get rid of all of them. The only decent player was Robinson. As for Sackey - I've heard a lot about a Sackey but it couldn't be the same bloke that turned up tonight could it? How can you rate any of the England players above 3? They were rubbish. Wake up England! 2003 ended in 2003! Sack the management first - talk about useless.
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How on earth did Shaun Perry score a single point? I live in Sydney so havent seen a lot of him but so slow is his delivery it was like going back to the Dark Ages. He really was totally out of his depth, even against the USA. Does no one in England watch Southern Hemisphere rugby anymore? England gave me my greatest rugby moment 4 years ago & I'll be at the Final again but fortunately with a bunch of Kiwis!
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I don't understand how you could give these players higher then 5, their performance was really not what the england nation expected. My father is SAn and my mother is English, today I stood with my father.
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I agree with other posters, the ratings are too high, mostly. I think the only players to come out of this with any credit are Robinson and Gomarsall. Robinson was the only player to make a break and the amount of high balls he took convincingly stopped us from being on the end of an even bigger beating. When Gomarsall came on, he got us going forward, ok, it didn't produce any points, but the very fact he seemed to be interested in getting some quick ball to the backs (perry was so so so slow, and because of that, our backs didn't have a chance) In my opinion Perry should never play for us again... I can't ever remember seeing him have a good game for england, he might be a great club player, but he isn't good enough for this. I hate the way England rugby has gone since 2003. This squad is a squad of a nation desperate not to lose the cup, rather than desperate to win it. They said that as inspiration before, Ashton used "Rumble in the Jungle"... I think this very thing sends out the wrong message, we are admitting to ourselves that we are underdogs... this is wrong, we should be going into it with the attitude that we are the best. Corry should never be England captain again, he wasn't a success when he was captain before, and I don't care about the fact that he shouted at the team at half time... so he should have. He doesn't justify his place in the team based on his own performance, and thus he shouldnt be in the team, let alone captain. I don't blame Farrell...He clearly hasn't had enough time playing Union...I get the impression the england coaches he was their "wildcard". I think he deserves another chance, but after he has played at club level for a bit. I think its a joke that at the kick-offs we have a no12 who kicks long every time (why) He isn't used to the union style kick-off... and they said catt couldn't place kick, and thus I'm guessing kick-offs because he has been protecting his old back...why is he in the team????? His kicking from hand was terrible! We should have players such as: Cipriani, Haskell, Geraghty etc should be in the squad at least. When I saw the squad before the world cup, it was clear that this was a squad picked by a coach scared of losing the cup. We have exciting talent, but we are too scared to use it! I am actually thinking I would rather we lose to Samoa and Tonga and fail to get out of the group, so that it really makes the RFU, and english rugby as a whole sit up. Or of course we could get through the group, I think we will beat Samoa and Tonga, but then we will get put out by Australia... know what i would prefer...
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No comments from any South Africans?
I think there is any need to comment, the scoreboard says it all. Personally I think the Boks "toyed" with England in the second half, why risk injury to your players when its obvious your opponent has been thoroughly beaten and poses no threat...England were out-played, out-matched and over-rated for this world cup...'till next time boys :)
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Yeahhhhhhhh only just got back home from a south african friendly pub!!! wonderful score line, it proves that the bokke still have some of their old '95 flair. But I get the feeling that we only played in third gear, it would be nice to see what damage the boks could do if they unleashed all their potential in a propper match, maybe a South Africa v Australia/new zealand final? But anyway my comiserations to the england team, Brian Ashton needs to start from the bottom and sack all the current players, sure olddies like Jason Robinson have talent but his injury proves that he may have passed his "Best Before Date". And what is with those ratings, is it some kind of english tounge in cheek humour or are they serious ratings?
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No comments from any South Africans?
I do not think there is any need to comment, the scoreboard says it all. Personally I think the Boks "toyed" with England in the second half, why risk injury to your players when its obvious your opponent has been thoroughly beaten and poses no threat...England were out-played, out-matched and over-rated for this world cup...'till next time boys :)
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Extremely generous scores out of ten. Remember the old Max Boyce routine about how Wales thought a passing train whistle was the full time whistle, and left the field....and ten minutes later England scored???? The Boks brought on their B team, and played to avoid injury for the last 30 minutes, and STILL England couldn't score.
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I live in the States and am glad I didnt take time off work and pay for pay per view to watch the game. Surely you need to compare the way that the game is played successfully in the other hemisphere and learn from them? Cos they're all competitive and we are not. You can't win without power and pace and you don't get that with players such as Corry, Catt and the like. And if you're saying that Robinson was our only player then what state of affairs is the England game in? It really is a time for a rehaul. This may mean losing games in the six nations but someone has to have the bottle to realise rugby is a game for young men. As they say over here....'you cant make chicken salad out of chicken s.....'. So BA, you need to cut a bunch of slow loyal old men into the abyss, and lose with the young ones before you can win again in the future. And if you dont want to do that BA, then you are not a leader, and not a coach.
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The biggest disappointment was that despite being deserved losers on the day the vast majority of SA points came from basic mistakes by England- giving away penalties when we have the ball!, not rolling away, scrum offences in the opposition 22, not throwing in straight, not making touch (surely Catt's last game!!- Farrell took an age to kick it, but he made touch) ...
Plus- when England made a mistake the ball went quickly towards the England Line. When SA made a mistake they recovered well and supported each other.
Got to work on:
1. restarts- kick high and give the forwards a chance to contest the ball- we just gave it to the opposition!
2. ruck ball- use it fast. Dont wait for one of our forwards to infringe and lose the ball!
3. backs - how about running onto the ball? and trying a few different lines? What do they do in training?
..only Samoa and Tonga to go- so we will have 4 or 5+ more injured players.
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Sorry Bryn but were you watching the same England team as I was. Dont get me wrong. Any defeat for the world champions at this World cup, six nations or friendly match is among my highlights of any year
England are rubbish, You know it, majority of fans know it and God bless him Brian Ashton, who would make anybody's perfect grandfather, knows it too but is too polite a man to admit it.
I wish we in Ireland had players of the vision of Martin Corry, the ramrod that is Jamie Noon, the kicking ability of Andy Farrell, the titanic Simon Shaw, big ears Borthwick, not forgetting those titans of the front row- Sheridan and Stevens. Least we forget wee George goatee Chuter- he frightens me as much as he frightens the opposition.
Blessed are those who have won a previous world cup and think they can do it with basically the same men now 4 years older, slower, have made advances in their technical knowledge and are basically CRAP.
soar Eire
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To even make any comparison between the world cup winning team and this world cup squad is a joke. Fans and media alike need to let go of the 2003 glory and start a fresh. Any fool can see that whatever we had in the last WC has well and truly left us, its time to move on and stop relying on old hands. Here's to a Samoan thrashing...at least it may hereld a new beginning!
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Too many foreigners in the Guiness premiership, teams not wanting to lose rather that wanting to win (if you see what I mean), too many coaches scared of getting rid of players obviously past it and praying to the 13-code gods for a saviour...
You guys seriously need to ditch Corry, Dallaglio,Regan, Easter (think he's about 30 anyway), Kay, Perry, Catt, Farrell, Noon, Sackey...mind you, as a welshman, i'd hardly be crying if that lot were fielded against us come the six nations.
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Seeing that England was playing against 16 men, the Ref was really very ONE EYED in a lot of his decisions against England. The Boks got off with a lot of offside play and coming in from the side of the ruck that England was being pinged for all the time! Was the Ref French? The Ref was the result of the one sided score! Just a note, I am a New Zealander by the way!
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Pride? How can any of them have any pride when they are forced to wear that new rugby strip, befitting more of a syncronised swimming team that an ex world chapion rugby club!!! :-)
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Englands main problem is that after the RWC 2003 they failed to see the intervening 3-4 years as a building process to the next workd cup and instead used it as a way to blood promising youngsters (tait, allen, haskell, flood, morgan) and then put them to the back of the line at the earliest sign of weakness. Then instead putting players in the team that failed to make the grade at their peak (shaw, corry, reagan) or players that are past their sell by date and need to be put back on the shelf (dallaglio, kay). One thing that frustrated me more than most as a England fan is that Brian Ashton has completely betrayed his ethos of free flowing rugby portrayed by so many of the teams he had previously coached, and has instead installed a system that attempts at best to be efficient at the set piece. We have fallen so far behind the Southern hemisphere countries that it will take a revolution in English rugby to reverse the decline.
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Has any sport seen such a fall from grace of it's defending champions?
In four years the England side has gone from the best in the world to third rate. It's not a lull in form, it's a collapse...an implosion.
Their humiliation at the hands of the Boks underlines it all. Management is a disgrace and the most the pundits can get excited about is an ex-league player who has been in the game over ten years already. To make us even more of a laughing stock, why the hell is Mike Catt even in the squad? How can you field him at fly-half against the Boks?
I honestly think the man in the pub couldn't do a worse job.
Reality checks are needed along the entire vertical.
An utter embarrassment.
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I live in Japan and got up at 3:30am to prepare to watch this. Why did I bother? I expected us to lose but in such abject fashion? We did not compete anywhere on the pitch. We all know our backs are a shower at the moment but the forwards were pathetic too. After thsi World Cup our domestic game needs looking t again and this time put the youngsters into the Engfland team and keep them there. Who will replace Ashton?
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Sad to be a Pom in NZ today. What a pathetic performance (jason Robinson excepted) from an unfit, unorganised, slow,flabby and most uninspiring bunch. Where have all the athletes gone?
I wonder how the heck we won the last World Cup - couldn't believe it then and this proves everyone else must have lost it !
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A disgraceful performance. Robinson can hold his head up high and deserved the ovation when he left the field, but the clowns around him don't deserve anything.Even when we got into a reasonable position we took the worng options or fumled a simple pass. Is this the best that England have. As I live in Australia I hope they don't make the quarter finals. The Aussies will be out for revenge from 4 years ago and it will be a humiliating experience for us poms to go through. The South Africans aren't that good, we even rolled thier scrum a couple of times, but we just made them look good
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I really am lost for words. Jason Robinson is the only player who can face himself in the mirror after this shambles. Unfortunately, he was surrounded by complete incompetence in all areas. I could mention 14 other players but Sackey! Can anybody tell me why he is wearing an England shirt. Clueless with absolutely no pace whatsoever. Utter disgrace apart from Robinson. Thanks for all you have done
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Completely agree with Chris (above). I live abroad also and got up in the middle of the night for that rubbish. The worst performance by Any English team in ANY sport that I can remember. This match should be known forthwith as South Africa vs Jason Robinson. The other 14 may as well have not been on the pitch. So Sad to see Robinson hobbling off.
Does anyone seriously want to to see us qualify from this group and then be anihilated by the Aussies? We are like a lame race horse - end the misery!
As someone posted earlier. We need to go away and learn how to play rugby.
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Oh dear, good only for a laugh, the ratings are certainly generous - would not be rated as high here in the southern hemisphere. We do take our sport seriously though!! Its a shame the defending champions have become minnows - have they undertaken any preparation? Did'nt look to athletic to us, beer must be too good!.
Once saw the Driffield Third team play like that.
Chin Up Chaps
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I think this was a bad performance as any one but chris oxford above suggesting on giving up shouldn't be considered an england fan as that is not the english way of playing we never give up.
Also i live abroad and stayedup untill 5 am to watch this robinson vs south africa show.
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I know we have injuries and suspensions but the managenment has given every indication that they didn't have a plan A, let alone a plan B or C.
No.8, scrum-half, fly-half and inside centre are such vital positions but we still seem to be filling these positions with players who are not up to it, out of position or passed their best.
If we are going to get hammered using our mature players then why not bring in the youngsters so they can get experience before the next world cup?
Come on guys sort it out!!!
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Were England ever going to win this World Cup? No. So why didn't we bring a squad for the future. A squad that could grow and gain experience. It is very much a British disease not to give youth a chance and vital experience. What are we so affraid of. Players like Catt & the Lion Hearted Lawrence are legends but what do they hold beyond this World Cup? There were too many players in their 30's on the edge of retirement. A player like Flood would have gained so much from this tournament. The RFU need to take a long hard look at themselves, stick their hands up and admitt that they have ruined the sport in England. We should have built on our success from 2003 but we have gone backwards at an alarming rate. Didn't Will Carling call the RFU 56 Old Farts? How correct. Get the pompous board out. It is the 21st century and it is time to run the sport as needs be. There is only one answer and that is bring in Sir Clive to run the whole show. WOODWOOD FOR RFU PRESIDENT. Get rid of the dead wood from the team and the RFU. We have to be carefull or in 40 years we are going to be like those fairy footballers and 2003 will be our 1966. God help us.
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before the team was announced i was praying they wouldnt have a midfield of catt, farrel, noon. low and behold... so, so, so one dimentional,predictable, uninventive. does anyone no if hipkiss is still ill? cosidering he's a player who's actually dynamic, surely ashton has thought to start him if fit. if not, surely he's not going to start farrel again?? laughed out loud when i read someone's earlier post of their ideal starting line up, which had farrell at OC!!! my god. GET THE BRAIN DEAD MIDFIELD OUT
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As a Scot I tend to enjoy watching England lose, but prefer a sneaky 2 or 3 pointer. I think the premiership has a lot to blame for England's poor performance.
Week in week (outfar more games than Super 14, NPC or Currie Cup) they play a poor version of rugby league, for the spectators, with big straight running body builders, mainly from the Southern Hemisphere players, any sense of ball and player vision thoroughly coached out of them.
Cut the league/play off or produce a selective district system where the best players can be drafted from any club in the region. Move away from business men running the clubs. Start picking players who can play their positions, not just run straight, i.e. props who can scrummage - how Sheridan is not penalised off the park is beyond me?
Dito for all the home nations in fact!
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Engalnd lost end of story bring on the NZ and Aussies
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Dear oh Dear Oh Dear
As a SA supporter I cringed for the English supporters at the stadium. They are the only aspect of English rugby worth any praise.I have never seen the likes of Farrell at even junior school level. Accolades for Robinson - not likely. Average at best.
Can the chariot swing any lower?
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England were appaling, what happened to their mighty pack, any natural talent seems to have be coached out of them. Their reliance on the 'rolling maul' a major factor in the last world cup is now old hat, all the other teams seem to do it better, use the backs once in a while please!. M Catt at number 10 had a shocker, the management should have made a change at that position after Catt's 1st half performance, which was riddled with mistakes. This might be a one off, but I'm sure the guy will be feeling low on self esteem and might be a liability in future games, look what happened to G Henson after the last Lions tour!
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As an Irishman living in S Africa, and who hardly knows these English players,I have to say that they didn't look as if they were even trying, with one or two exceptions. Most looked decidedly jaded and unfit. But worst of all was the lack of ideas and the persistence with failed tactics.
Is there a Northern team with even a remote chance of beating a Southern Hemisphere team? I'd be astounded after watching both France and England.
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I have never seen an England team play so badly and not even compete, they were 2nd best all over the field. Better luck in 4 years eh?
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As a Pom living in NZ this was embarrassing - besides Jason Robinson, I wouldn't give any of them any points.
If you watch Southern Hemisphere rugby regularly, it is clear that South Africa and the All Blacks are streets ahead of the northern hemisphere teams. In the last 4 years they have taken the game to a different level - they are very athletic and superfit - even the forwards. England are pedestrian in comparison. There may be a load of money in club rugby to attract ex and past-it All Blacks, but the northern hemisphere international teams need to urgently change the style of play and attract more athletic players - otherwise this debacle will happen time and time again.
Not Happy!!!!!!!
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At least Robinson looked like he was trying.
Most of the rest were awful and as for Farrell.........
It was very generous of the England scrum half ( the name escapes me as he was so bad) to wait until the opposition were all back in place before passing out of a ruck.
I am a Scot, and even I was embarrased.
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Here I am in South America (Colombia)trying to introduce the locals to rugby (English) and this is the campaign I choose!A debacle from start to finish. The only relatively pleasing performance was Se帽or Robinson-thank you and good luck;I seriously hope it's not final;you have brought us great joy over the years.
The responsibilty lies with the RFU;where is the investment? where are the new players? Why was advantage not taken 4 years ago to motivate an interest? what chance is there now? I want England to win in style but failing that, some passion for their country is essential
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I am so depressed. I watched the match live in Kabul with South African commentary. It was dreadful losing but listening to the gloating was almost as bad. England have gone backwards at such a rapid rate of Knotts that they face the real possibility of not qualifying for the last Eight. On the evidence thus far it would be well deserved.
South Africa did not play particularly well! We handed them probably 20 plus points through our own mistakes. All the Boks did was kick the ball deep into England territory and wait for the inevitable mistakes. They did not have to wait long.
The backs were simply dreadful, Robinson, Lewsey and Farrell apart. The front row dominated in the scrums but along with the locks failed to make any impact in the loose. The line outs were a shambles and the back row was anonymous.
Ratings:
Robinson 5. Englands Best player. Fearless and safe under the ball and made a few breaks reminiscent of better times for English Rugby. A Sad end to an outstanding career when forced off through injury.
Lewsey 4. Sound in defence but rarely given the opportunity to attack as he never got the ball.
Noon 2. Decidedly one dimensional and not a particularly good dimension. Sad to see a bad injury but at least it means he wont be selected next week!
Farrell 4. Big in defence and kicked well. Made a few thrusts and offloaded well but a general lack of support at sp[eed from depth meant that when he did offload the supporting player failed to make the most of it.
Sackey 1. Poor defensively. ran around like a headless chicken in attack and never once tried to take his man on the outside. Frequently out of position and his opposite number Peterson scored 2 tries - need I say more.
Catt 1. Failed to impose himself on the match, kicked poorly, missed a simple drop goal from 30 metres directly in front of the posts. Distribution poor, tackling non-existant.
Perry 1. Laboured pass, poor kicking and dreadful decision making. England took one against the head and wheeled right and he went left against the wheel kicking directly into touch. His opposite number was Man of the Match.Clueless!
Sheridan 4. Imposed himself in the scrum and supported well in the lineout. Made one surging run in the second half but too little too late.
Regan 1. Poor throwing at the line out and not as aggressive as on the tour to SA he failed to make any impression in the loose.
Stevens 4. Gave away a stupid penalty but played well in the loose and scrum.
Shaw 3. Secure line out ball and pushed hisheart out in the scrum. Tackled manfully but failed to make any impression on a resolute SA defence.
Kaye 2. Any lock that kicks when he has a man outside him deserves to be dropped - particularly when the execution is so poor. Stuffed in the line out but tackled manfully. Must learn that the shortest distance to the line is a straight one parallel to the touch line. Locks should not run sideways!
Corry 2. Depressingly one paced and lacking dynamism. Corry worked hard and did his best. It's just that his best is no longer good enough.
Rees 2. A huge learning experience for a young man who was part of a back row comprehensively outplayed by the Boks. He will be all the better for the experience and will become a World Class player with time.
Easter 2. Made a couple of strong surges late on but the game was already won. Appeared to struggle early on and had no impact at the line out.
Replacements:
Moody 3. At least demonstrated some dynamism for the brief time he was on.
Gommersall 3. Kicked well and tried hard to get England moving forward. A thankless task coming on with the game already lost.
Tait - Not on long enough but not a Full Back!
Freshwater - Didn't notice him sneak on with a couple of minutes left.
Borthwick - Not on long enough, should have replaced Kaye earlier.
Richards - Not on long enough.
Chuter - Not on long enough.
Coaching Staff 1. If there was a game plan the side failed to execute it. The Coaching Team does not appear to have had any impact on the style of play. Replacements made no impact. Selection of players out of position is ludicrous. Some of those selected do not merit selection.
Team for next week: God knows but assuming replacements are sought for Robinson and Noon perhaps:
15 Lewsey
14 Cueto
13 Hipkiss
12 Barkley
11 Tait
10 Wilkinson
9 Richards
1 Sheridan
2 Chuter
3 Stevens
4 Shaw
5 Borthwick
6 Moody
7 Rees
8 Easter
16 Gommersall
17 Farrell
18 Flood (Called up to replace Noon)
19 Freshwater
20 Mears
21 Corry
22 Worsley
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Though not a great fan of the oval ball game, watching last night was an embarrassment. The Boks were a team. England appeared simply to put what seemed like 14 old blokes and only one real player on the park. Only one Englishman was worth the shirt and his hamstring went under the incessant demands he placed upon it.
Jason Robinson take a bow lad and YOU can come home with YOUR head held high. No more to say really.
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Mark, I like your team and that is what I would probably opt for. However, is it just me or do you think it is too "lightweight" for suh a physical challenge as Samoa? I might opt for Farrel instea of Barkley (no doubt Wilko will get injured and we will probably need him to come on!). Plus, Dallagio instead of Rees?
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Therein lies the problem with English Rugby. To even suggest that Farrell defended and kicked well highlights the difference between the hemispheres. Until the North accepts without exception that these performances are unacceptable and excuses not sought, will they become competitive.
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Guys - the ratings are fair - The boks were just better - Dont forget Twickers just a few years ago - I paid 50 quid to see my team loose 53-3. The boks woke up, got rid of Rudy and Corne, found some talent and made a plan. England just brought back the old boys from retirement. Viva Samoa, and the lightness of vertigo.
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why the hell do people keep calling for tait at wing... its not misguided or illadvised... its stupid... look at last nights game... Paul Sackey, one of the most prolific wingers in English club rugby and european club rugby and he was totally out of his depth and people want to put Tait in?? for christ sake can people start thinking before they right...
lets be sensible while we're reshuffling the deck please... for example...
1. Sheridan
2. Regan (dodgy in the line time to time but chuter is a full fledged liability)
3. Stevens
4. Kay
5. Shaw
6. Moody
7. Rees
8. Easter
9. Perry (he'll redeem himself)
10. Wilkinson
11. Robinson (if not crippled, sackey if not but only cos no-one else)
12. Barkley
13. Tait
14. Cueto (world class WINGER... read my lips WIIIIING...GEEEEEERRRR for more information read "I am not an God Damn fullback")
15. Lewsey (for more information read "I am a world class fullback, play me in the right position since im doing the job anyway")
i dont see the point in living in the past anymore... yes before some of you point out robinson and co on the team sheet... to those i say i am clearly working a reshuffle purely within the confines of this 30 squad personally id have nick abendy-howeveryouspellit... cipriani... we have some awesome talent at home in the
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it was nice to see england's true colors.
england doesn't stand a chance... they might get lucky again in about 70 years. (kind of like soccer - i know it has been 41-)
england... you should be used to this.... you suck at sports.
stop living in the past, realize your true capabilities , which are almost none.
36 - 0 (what a joke, world champions? yeah sure you are LOL)
maybe the english should start looking at easier sports to compete in... ping pong
it was a good day for rugby fans yesterday
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What Can I say, The team does not need critism it needs help, Martin Johnson plz listen to country and become manager, do something quick we are the best team in the world we need to show it, we have been here before, and come back i will never give up on the team
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What Can I say, The team does not need critism it needs help, Martin Johnson plz listen to country and become manager, do something quick we are the best team in the world we need to show it, we have been here before, and come back i will never give up on the team
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O.K. so Farrel should not have continued with his long kick offs. But what did 'captain' Cory or 'experienced' Catt do to stop him? Either he totally ignored them - in which case he could have had kicking duties taken away from him, or we have striking evidence of weak leadership and a total lack of communication between the players on the field. The result was very little backing up, forwards going into rucks in 'ones' and no off loads as there was hardly ever anyone there to off load to!
Do memebers of the England team actually like each other? They don't seem to talk to each other on the field and they don't support each other on the field. Look how our football team's fortunes change when this happens.
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What Can I say, The team does not need critism it needs help, Martin Johnson plz listen to country and become manager, do something quick we are the best team in the world we need to show it, we have been here before, and come back i will never give up on the team
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England were clueless. Robinson deserved a 6 or 7 at best, but no-one else should be above a 5.
Everything was summed up in a first half incident - England win a scrum against the head in SA's half, the scrum has wheeled perfectly for quick ball to be spread out wide with SA not lined up in defence and Perry decides to go blind and the ball is kicked away. Stuart Barnes got it right (for once) in commentary - England have done nothing for four years, apart from bask in the glory of that win over Aus.
Shameful stuff.
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Last nights performance was totally inept, without insipiration, and was the result of really poor planning and team management. Jason Robinson was the only England player to demonstrate the calm confidence required and his was the only good performance in the circumstances.
Lets salvage some respectibility. Farrell is not up to standard. Noon and Sackey are outclassed. Perry is awful. Regan did not do the job effectively. Vickery is not in sufficient form to justify a starting place. Corry is not versatile enough for a back-row forward. Dallaglio has had his day.
That said, replace the injured Noon and Robinson. Also replace Wilkinson if he is less than 100% fit. Call up Flood and Geraghty as replacements. Replace Vickery with White (as an injury replacement hopefully - I am sure it can be worked out). My starting 15 would be:
15 Lewsey
14 Cueto
13 Hipkiss
12 Barkley
11 Tait
10 Geraghty
9 Gomersall
8 Easter
7 Rees
6 Moody
5 Kay
4 Shaw
3 Sheridan
2 Chuter
1 White
16 Richards
17 Freshwater
18 Corry
19 Worsley
20 Catt
21 Flood
22 Noon
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it was nice to see england's true colors.
england doesn't stand a chance... they might get lucky again in about 70 years. (kind of like soccer - i know it has been 41-)
england... you should be used to this.... you suck at sports.
stop living in the past, realize your true capabilities , which are almost none.
36 - 0 (what a joke, world champions? yeah sure you are LOL)
maybe the english should start looking at easier sports to compete in... ping pong
it was a good day for rugby fans yesterday
36 - 0
36 - 0
36 - 0
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Just a re-run of our recent performances.
The team is too old, but I am not too sure about the youngsters coming on. Tait is a good example - has he had a good game for England yet?
Too many foreign players in the Premiership - we are a big nation but our young players are not getting a chance when you can recruit Kiwis and South Pacific Islanders. Suppose trade laws prevent us restricting imports.
Catt - too old.
Farrell - experiment failed.
All our forwards - just not up to it.
Ponderous, no pace, no idea.
Robinson - I knew him at League, and knew he would be brilliant at Union.
Pity he didn't come when he was 21.
Ashton - experiment failed. But who to replace him? Woodward again?
Can't say that I am optimistic for the future.
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Well gents what i can't understand this morning is that the daily newspapers have been covering thier sports pages on the Chance of England retaining the World Cup BUT 2day there is not a letter, word or photo of their game v SA. I wonder why
Paul
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understandbly a lot of negative comments here from england fans1 Clearly england should have continued with the rebuilding job begun by robinson and not panicked and gone back to the old guard! But i think any of the northern hemisphere teams would have sufferd a similar fate last nite, such is the gap between us and them at the moment!
Before people get too hysterical they should remember that provided they can beat samoa - which they should do - england wil play wales or australia in the last 8 in france!
that is a game they they could win! Australia are not SA or Nz while wales are probably on the same level as england at the moment. So england could actually still make the semis despite last nites hammering!
But there the WC would be over for them as they - like every other nation in this WC i think - could not beat NZ or SA. Incidentally im welsh and feel the same way bout wales's chances against the big 2!
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Well...what can one say? At least the Boks did not really try for the last 25 minutes which kept the score at merely embarrasing.
It is not so much that England did not score, it's more that I could not see where any points would come from.
The pack fronted up reasonably in the tight but in the loose we were so slow that at one point i thoght the TV had 'frozen'.
can't really comment on the backs as they never got going at all, half back pairing was woeful as was the decision making in that crucial area.
I know you cannot lay all the blame on one man but I do think that Andy Farrell (a phenomenon in League) is not up to the mark. If he were a 'normal' player he would not have made the squad.
Robinson was the only player with passion and determination, Sackey out of his depth, Noon, Tait, Lewsey did not see the ball in any position to do anything. OH YES, LOCKs DO NOT KICK THE BALL IN OPEN PLAY, EVER, NEVER EVER. I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE HE DID IT!! ONLY 5 METERES FROM THE LINE....BOSH INTO THEM, FAST RECYCLE AND OVER THE LINE SURELY!
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Well...what can one say? At least the Boks did not really try for the last 25 minutes which kept the score at merely embarrasing.
It is not so much that England did not score, it's more that I could not see where any points would come from.
The pack fronted up reasonably in the tight but in the loose we were so slow that at one point i thoght the TV had 'frozen'.
can't really comment on the backs as they never got going at all, half back pairing was woeful as was the decision making in that crucial area.
I know you cannot lay all the blame on one man but I do think that Andy Farrell (a phenomenon in League) is not up to the mark. If he were a 'normal' player he would not have made the squad.
Robinson was the only player with passion and determination, Sackey out of his depth, Noon, Tait, Lewsey did not see the ball in any position to do anything. OH YES, LOCKs DO NOT KICK THE BALL IN OPEN PLAY, EVER, NEVER EVER. I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE HE DID IT!! ONLY 5 METERES FROM THE LINE....BOSH INTO THEM, FAST RECYCLE AND OVER THE LINE SURELY!
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England tried their hearts out but were simply not good enough.Jason Robinson was superb in defence and attack and will be remembered as the finest winger or fullback that has played for England. The Boks are a strong outfit with two great wingers and may win the world cup.
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I can't remember England rugby in such disarray. I completely despair at the incompetence of the RFU over the last four years, they have completely wasted the opportunities provided by 2003. I was optimistic after the appointment of Rob Andrew, but I see no tangible impact from him. It is time for a complete rethink of the game in England. Shaun Edwards for England coach too.
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What rating for Mr Andrew? A man who puts the moron into the oxymoron that is 'Elite Rugby Director?
Please read the web article 'Andrew backing Farrell to shine' to understand how far removed from reality he is. Who didn't see it coming, save for blind Rob?
We look forward to more platitudes and nicely spoken words. We will hear of 'must win' and how we will get 'a response' from 'gutted' players.
Meanwhile, Nero has presided over the biggest slump in sport. Keep earning that salary, Rob- a knighthood cannot be far away.
The decision making on Friday was woeful- was Kay's kick or Farrell's three-man overlap the highlight?
Reality is, the decision making from the top to the pitch is miles away from the standard needed.As Mr Royle would say, 'Elite, my a%$*'
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The whole of the RFU a big "0". They are the ones who should lay down the structure for the English game, they are the ones who have failed. What the hell, at least we've got a nice new expensive stand at twickers
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Whens clive going come bc as head coach?
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We seam to have gone back 20 years.
Total lack of imagination required for the modern game.
Where was the flair & pace in the backs?? Andy Farrell, I'm sorry but I must have been watching a different game for his rating.
The worst thing was that the Boks did not really play that well & look at the score.
So where do we go from here?? even if by some miracle England do beat Samoa, they can not go ay further in the competition beyond the first knock round, England are just not equipped or good enough to progress. Forget this competition move on & start to develop the game for the next world cup.
As for the management, please resign fresh ideas & thinking are required for a more open & flexible game plan
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Enough putting our team down no real Englishman does that and as for booing your own side!
OK Somethings not quite right with the England team, we have players who should be competative, not competing. Is it either they don't want to compete (but judging by the faces during the anthems not true),or there is something wrong with the physical or mental prep.
The England players were 2 metres behind the breakdown and could not pressure the SA's! They must be fit they are pros and will have regimes to peak fitness for the RWC. So what's going on? I suspect the recent balance of training is out, you have to be fast, fit and strong to win in modern rugby (Sean Fitzpatrick's words not mine), we seemed to only have the last two elements (ie. winning in the scrum then can't follow up).
Too much weight in the gym in search of bulk will slow you down (been there), difficult to tell with all the padding but I observed England do look over bulky not "toned". They seemed to tire very quickly and then recover, another symptom of high weight low reps training. Over bulked muscles also put too much strain on the tendons and ligaments and increase injury rates often in the most benign circumstances (also been there).
Mentally you have to believe, England start off believing but being just off the pace no matter how hard you try to raise your game has to erode this as the game goes on.
I may be as wrong as can be, but the balance of training is off somewhere.
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What was that performance all about we looked so slow and never looked like scoring i thought thats there full time jobs? Also why did we not compete at any lineouts they didnt need to because we couldnt even throw straight dizmal glad im cornish not english
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I am a South African Supporter through and through and really enjoyed seeing England get beaten.
What I don't enjoy is the way you - the fans and public - continue to trash your team instead of supporting them.
How are you supposed to keep going and stay motivated when it looks like everyone hates you.
Try being supportive for a change, it can actually work.
Well played Robinson - you are a legend.
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shocking. absoloutely shocking.
what more can there be said about a performance which showed no imagination or fire. They may aswell not have turned up playing like that.
These are meant to be the best players in the country and frankly i have seen more charismatic rugby being played by school teams.
How any of the players are over 5 let alone 1 I do not know as none of them turned up apart from the odd spark from the likes of Jason Robinson it was a shoddy and frankly embarrassing performance, in which the better team should have won by alot more.
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The whole campaign from selection through to execution has been flawed with a complete lack of forethought and creativity. OK worst case Robinson and Noon out and need replacing, get two younger and exciting players in. Anthony Allen and James Simpson Daniel (Gloucester bias i know but they didn't come top of the premiership for no reason). JW hopefully fit and perhaps we have a chance to beat Samoa before we become the laughing stock. Probably Ashton's last chance to save his job, the public will never tolerate a Pool stage knock out.
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Bryn, Those ratings are awful if your not careful you will be going the same way as BA at the end of this world cup. Sackey for me was the one player to be targetted for his failure in defence and, one the rare occassion he did get ball he failed to use his pace. He must go.
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I think that we can all agree that last night was embarrassing and not unexpected. After the last WC, with so many retirements and injuries, we needed to move on. We quickly regressed under Andy Robinson and Brian Ashton is far too conservative in his approach for what is neded now. I suggest that we completely dismantle the current team and bring in the youngsters with the goal of winning the WC in 2015. I also suggest that we bring in a southern hemisphere coaching team. How about getting Campese to coach the backs? You never know they might just score a try.
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Start off with the Boks - they look a decent side to me. lots of power and pace. Might give the all Blacks a game. Both sides are well ahead of the rest.
As for Emgland, where do you start - almost unimaginably poor. They have gone so far backwards when everyone else has moved on. Should have blooded some younger talent, although it doesn't look that great. Someone needs to take a good look at this and set up a structure to do better. Use the 15 players that won the World cup to help maybe - they're all on TV - surely we need these guys to help with the development now. Brian Ashton - sorry, he's clueless.
On to the performance - the scrum half match up was laughable. Du Preez class; Perry once again pub standard. I don't buy this he was good in the warmups. I've stopped watching Emgland play often, but it took 10 seconds to see that this guy was miles out his depth. Gomersall helped, and can at least play the game. Corry - whats the opposite of dynamic. The game has moved on. Stop listening to Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times - he doesn't understand the game. Look at NZ and SA and then try and come up with somthing that can give them a game please. Taking Rees off for Moody shows how little Ashton knows. Front 5 - weak. For heavens sake - Regan was not that good 10 years ago. Are him and chuter the best we have in another vital position??? what's gone wrong here - they're both rubbish. Sackey looked like he was about good enough for a schoolboy team - its not touch rugby fella - tackle !! Clearly not good enough - at least the boy Strettle had something about him - didn't he?
Feel sorry for Jason Robinson - coming out of retirement for that. A true world class player, who put everything in it, at all times. Oh, for 14 more like him..or even 1 or 2
They will lose next week to Samoa with some luck, as then we might get some changes..
Looking forward to watching the Boks and All Blacks play from here - they play the game properly. Good luck to the Wales - not a talented side (bar Hook), but approach the game in the right way
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It's been said by virtually everyone before this already. England were lucky to get nil out of the game, and even those rating are very generous. Might even be fair to say that Springbok's weren't having the best game either, considering they didn't put up 60, despite it being a fairly easy target against such a weak and idea-less game by England.
England will seriously struggle to get through the group and into the knock-outs now.
It's more amazing though, that we kept the score line less broad than the Samoa - Springbok's defeat.
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I'm a New Zealander but as a fan of rugby I feel really bad for the english supporters who have had to put up with that disgraceful performance. Apart from Robinson the rest of your team is a joke and your backline is especially shambolic without even the basic skills of catching and passing correctly or running onto the ball. Players like Farrel wouldn't make any provincial side in NZ nor would Catt whose only claim to fame is that Jonah Lomu ran over him in 95.
As for the pack they are too old, too slow and don't have any skills such as offloading in the tackle which is second nature to a SH forward. Sheridan is a good scrummager but thats about it. Those english players (except Robinson) should be ashamed.
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I think the ratings are far to high and in particular Andy Farrells.
The guy was a fish out of water today, he ran the wrong lines for a man of his siaze which allowed the defence and Steyn to defend against him comfortably. He tried to ofload in the tackle to much like in League and ended up giving away promising field positions. His kicks rarley made touch and also it was his fault for the 2nd try when he tried to kick the ball and completely missed it.
The worst performace from the lot bar perry!
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Reality should have hit home for England now. England have been basking for 4yrs in the glory of 2003, but in the last 4 years they have lost to pretty much every nation including other struggling countries like Scotland. Going into 2003 England were awesome. Going into 2007 England were less so. All this talk of England retaining the world cup, was only listened to in England. Everybody else was sniggering.
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Well it has been a long time coming. After four years of either losing or winning badly it is clearly time to say goodbye to the old guard (with the exception of Wilkinson & Lewsey). We have been preoccupied with winning at all costs rather than losing and delivering a decent display. I would happily see a young England side lose every game in the 6 nations but play well and see them grow together as a team for the future but i fear this will never happen. We have the young backs to do this, isn't it time we gave them a fighting chance?
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I think these are over generous. These seem a bit more realistic
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They got what they deserved, nothing. They looked a tired, worn out bunch and were unable to compete, this sad state of affairs will continue, unless we follow the example of the Southern Hemisphere who set up elite squads, limited the amount of Rugby played,we must concentrate on the next World Cup and Internationals. Central Contracts and a long term plan is necessary for success. The question is whether the Premier League Clubs would support such a move and take a long term view or just continue to look after themselves. In the longer term a successful National Side is essential if the game as a whole is to continue to expand and to prosper.
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England really need to start with Dallaligo and Worsley in the next game. I know the game against the USA was disappointing but yesterday was a complete shambles
I would drop Corry & Rees; Corrys winning record in an England shirt is poor and he is no where close in abilty to Dallaligo, even if he is past his best.
lets hope Johhnyy Wilkinson is fit aswell, because we need him. Still think we are woefully short of pace in the back row though & thats the main problem.
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thought you were being harsh on sheridan, farrell and lewsey they deserved 7s
but the rest of the team played poorly
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(Un?)fortunately only saw the first half before I had to leave for work so I won't try to rehash the per-player ratings.
From what I saw though;
Forwards - ineffective at line-out and ruck, scrum was average. Props did well but the rest didn't appear to bother. No visible control or leadership to either generate or execute a plan of attack.
Perry was woeful; decisions were slow in the making and poor in execution.
Backs - other than the restarts I thought Farrell did well, remainder lacked vision in both attack and defence. Sackey appeared totally out of his depth.
Robinson shone and deserves all the praise already given. I'll be genuinely sad to see him leave the game, be that immediately or post WC.
I'm a Scot and generally support whichever home nation is playing v's a foreign nation and almost feel embarrassed for England's recent form.
Against 'lesser' teams England appear to win only because the opponents can't take sufficient advantage in attack to gain points. Even against such teams England lack the ability to put on a convincing score. England must fundamentally change how they play or will continue to slip down the world ranks.
I equally accept that the Scots are far from a world beating team, but at least seem to be improving.
Best of luck against Samoa and Tonga but at this point I'd say you will be lucky to get beyond the group stage.
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The ratings are way off. They all need to drop a point except perhaps Robinson and Tait - how you can give Tait the same as Sackey and only one more than Perry beggars belief.
His running lines were great - just Farrell failed to spot him and make the pass. He secured the one kickable (for points) penalty of the entire evening, and his only kick from deep was chased so quickly that it resulted in a turnover as the saffers hadn't realised that Noon was onside!
Giving Farrell a 5 is a joke. You say it yourself - nobody outside him saw the ball until the third quarter!! He kept kicking posession straight down the middle of the field, and having it put back 10 yards behind in touch. Can't fault his trying, but lack of game understanding and pace did for him.
The RFU have to stop picking him just because they spent 1 million on him. He was great for league in his day, but he is now past it in Union! Barclay's selection at IC is pretty secure now if we want pace.
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Not sure about the ratings I think the score says it all, Jason was a lone shaft of light.
A Great performance by South Africa, now we must know how they felt in 2003! I am (sort of) looking forward to seeing so many of them in the premiership.
I tend to agree with Jeff Burgess that we need to start with a long term view imediately after the this tournament.
In the long term I am not sure where the players will come from, and how we are going to develop a sufficent number of players of quality. Clearly the premiership is a top quality competition with a galaxy of world stars it does not produce enough quality players who can compete at an international level (let alone against RSA). I am not sure how much RFU money goes to pay the foreign contingent (admittedly some of the best in the world, Carl Hayman for exampl)or if the clubs feel any responsibility to develop any English talent. If we continue to fail on the international stage then whole of the English game will suffer from mini rugby to premiership gates.
I have no idea how to go forward but hope somebody in the RFU has a plan (although I sincerely doubt it)
I forsee more pain to come.....
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I blame it on the new shirts. They look crap
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One or two of the team seem to have heart, while the rest of them watched for 5 yards away, the few times the likes of easter, farrell or robinson would run the ball in to the defense only to have the rest of the england team standing there watching, rather than running with pace off the shoulder or running on inside angles into the slower SA forwards, Esp. our wings, where were they??. Sheridan for once dominanted the SA front row, but had no back-up what so ever, our forwards need to get angry rather than bottling it!! stand-up and be counted for c-sake!
It seems a number of the england squad simply think by saying they have heart and intensity that it will transpose on to the field.
shut-up and put-up! get some bottle and gutts!
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As a South African, I find your ratings of the English team interesting. I would put it to you though that if you considered these ratings (as you scored them) as the Springbok ratings (ie they really played to the average 5) then you will see that your ratings of England are too high. If I as a South African believe our Boks average was 5 or 6 then you will see what I mean. England average in my humble view was a 3.
Now pull up the socks and lets see an England really play against the Somoaians.
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Maybe if the English scrumhalf - would bend down and put the ball into the scrum. we would have had a game.
Instead we saw time and time again the puposeful hesitation with the objective of trying to force a penalty due to some or other fault of the ball-less scrum.
Stop trying to win points by defualt, this is a tough game and you have to EARN the points.
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Here's a South African comment:
I feel sorry for England, losing Jason Robinson like that, but did you all see every saffa got to his feet applauding him off the field. Great sportsmanship you guys, all of you make me proud to be south african and to the bokke, what a powerful performance, WE LOVE YOU!!!
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Having sat in the stands for 80mins surrounded by highly vocal Boks... mostly with my head in my hands.... eagerly anticipating some form of miracle or at least even a show of English pride I was left completely disappointed except by one person Jason Robinson. Robo deserves an 8 for being the only player in an England jersey who actually turned up to play and the only English player who looked like they could actually challenge the SA game. Perry鈥檚 performance was as inspiring as watching paint dry and paint probably dry鈥檚 quicker ... this left a static team, held under pressure with no ideas for breaching the gain line with no real answer to the highly organised, focussed and opportunist Boks team. SA by no means put in their best performance. All credit to SA they played well, kept it simple and did a job well; you would think with so much "drill training" we too should have at least got the basics by now. Springbok 8 - Robinson 8 - England 4!!!
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We won't get past the quarters (and yesterdays team would lose to Samoa) so lets shake things up a bit...
1. Sheridan
2. Chuter
3. Stevens
4. Borthwick
5. Corry
6. Moody
7. Rees
8. Easter
9. Richards
10. Barkley
11. Cueto
12. Hipkiss
13. Tait
14. Lewsey
15. Robinson
If Robinson isn't fit play Sackey to the wing and put Josh at full-back
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Sackey "not wholly convincing in defence either" is a great understatement. He missed two crucial tackles that ended in tries. We were expecting better things from him.
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SEAN EDWARDS FOR ENGLAND COACH, NOW!
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No great progress made from the last WC finals. Lousy in the last 6 nations. A Farrell not up to the International standard of Union at any position ! Wrong running lines with the ball, no slight of hand or nowse and a kicking game supposed to be his strength, no touches found, tactical awarenss crap, kicks to long at drop outs and restarts, even my wife saw his shortcomings. Bring out some new young blood for the next six nations ie. Flood & Gerraty
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Agree with all the critical comments about the ratings being over-generous - Ben Kay, for instance, had a nightmare - but the question is what could be done to improve things? the only positive suggestions on this whole board amount to nothing more than a list of "promising" many of whom have already been tried at International level and not made much impact. We need to sort out the back row (the decision to leave Haskell at home looks particularly unfortunate) and scrum half (Richards isn't look any more convincing then Perry, to me)before we start getting excited about Varndell, Cipriani et al - haven't got the ball: not going anywhere.
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Bring on the Saxons!
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Surely the marks should start with a big fat zero for the RFU for appointing Brian Ashton in the first place. Great coach and number 2 - yes. Great leader of men and number 1 - No
Next should be a big fat zero for Ashton himself for failing to use this World Cup as a great opportunity to blood some of the great young talent we have in this country in advance of 2011. We were never going to win this World Cup and should have been honest enough to admit it and plan for the future. A slow forward based game will never win the World Cup again. The game has moved on and we must too.
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There are many comments comparing the strength of southern hemisphere rugby to that in the north. Wish people would not group SA, Oz and NZ together !! Reason is that whilst SA and Oz have got to where they are using own resources, NZ have pillaged the ranks of talent in the Pacific. Where would they be without the half dozen "Islanders" ?
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First of all people should remember that we are not yet out of the world cup, so less of the doom and gloom guys.
Secondly, how about some credit to South Africa, it was not just that England did not play well, SA came with a plan and executed it well.
Rather than go through the obvious player bashing that so many of the comments on this site seem to delight in, I would like to offer some other reasons for England's poor form.
This has been coming for a while.
The influence of money, mainly from Sky's contract to show the premier league is a major issue for English Rugby.
Too many clubs are trying to buy thier way to success and this leads to the importing of non-english payers taking key positions.
No dis-respect to the current english players, but look at the scrum-half position. There is simply no world class scrum-half who is english.
And where is one going to come from?
And then because of the domination of the demand of success and money. potential young players do get the chance to progress.
So think on all you Sky subscribers, if you want to see great premier rugby, Ok keep subscribing.
But if you want to see a successful England Team, then perhaps you will need to put up with your team not doing so well in the short term.
While we re-build our capacity to develop home grown talent.
One final word on yesterday's game.
Whilst I agree that the Farell experiment should stop now.
I feel that the rest of backs should be given some slack. you cannot play well with poor ball.
And yesterday the England forwards simply did not turn up.
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mmmm...just to add to the 300 others who have said so. The scores are excessively generous to everyone other than Robinson and, in fairness, I would have scored Sheridan a higher score.
After all, we turned over two SA scrums and he gave his opposite number a pretty torrid time in the set piece scrum all night. On another day and with a better display in the loose from the rest of the pack - this would have been a good foundation on which to build.
Other than those two mildly glowing lights, the rest was not just spectacularly poor, it was woeful. But, what is most frustrating, is the fact that this was not unexpected and many predicted it.
At WHAT point are the RFU going to realise that it is necessary to blood youngsters and give them the opportunity to be beaten, but compete, in a world cup with no expectation on them. Stop arranging international games all over the season (and annoying the clubs) and focus on playing the ones we DO play well with a core squad where good youngsters are brought through and given the experience at the right time. The most worrying factor is to look at WHO will be young enough and good enough to be in the NEXT world cup with the players Ashton has chosen this time? Rees? Tait as Captain? Stephens? Not may others .. so the decisions made on THIS cup have possibly also confined England to a loss in the NEXT one too. Poor show chaps.
Does anybody else feel we are also shooting ourselves in the foot with the constant and consistent opportunity the North provides for Southern Hemisphere players to play in the club sides at the top level (taking spots that COULD be filled by local players)? I can't remember the last time I saw a home nation or french player in the Super 12? I KNOW we all enjoy seeing these players and money is the driver .... but unsuccessful home international teams WILL ultimately affect the clubs eventually and the overall popularity of the sport. I keep hearing commetators or pundits referring to major players from SA or NZ and declaring their imminent move to some club in Englan, Wales or France.
Is it me?????
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(just so you know, i am scottish...)
I have to admit I laughed when i heard the score line, but to be honest, I was expecting something like this to happen.
Picking up on earlier comments, someone mentioned "Has-beens and never-will-bes" which does really sum up the majority of the England set-up. Why is Wilkonson in the squad? He may be a great fly-half, but in a competition where a player has to be in the squad for more than 48 hours to play, you can't afford for squad places to be taken up by such injury prone players.
I have also never rated Farrell, I don't see what he brings to England (or rugby union in general). Sackey is another player who is defensively inept.
Of course, while we may lambast the players, the buck stops with Brian Ashton; surely he should have picked at least one fullback, and should have thought about kicking one of strettle/wilkinson/barkley out the squad to bring a fit Fly-half in!
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These ratings are high & very generous for a team that was outplayed in almost all phases of the game. Im a BOK supporter from Cape Town and have to agree we battled in the scrums, especially tighthead prop Botha. However giving Mike "I feel sorry for the poor Springbok facing Jonah Lomu" Cat getting a 4!!, was he even in the game at all. England could have taken the field with 14 players instead. Hard work for you POMS before the big hitting game against Samoa. All the best, its still early days in the WC though & a solid performance in your next game could swing the tide I believe.
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england played badly.. appallingly. But the boks r not going to win the world cup like that!! they should have scored at least 60 points. They had lack of ambition. 1 try should have been an england penalty and 1 was perry missing a simple tackle. The AB will desrtoy them
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GOODMORNING POMS.
i HAD TO TAKE THIS OPPERTUNITY TO JUST QUICKLY RUN INTO THE NEAREST INTERNET CAFE TO LET YOU GUYS KNOW,WE ABSOLUTE THRASHED YOUR ENGLISH ROSES LAST NIGHT.I WAS AT THE GAME LAST NIGHT AND IT WAS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING TO WITNESS THE BRILLIANT WIN BY THE BOKS!!!!!!WE WERE IN THE MINORITY IN SUPPORT BUT I FELT THAT MOST FRENCH SPEAKING PPL BACKED THE BOKS.THE ENGLAND TEAM LACKED INTENSITY RHYTHM AND GAME PLAN,OH BUT THAT BECAUESE THERES TO MNY PENSIONERS IN THE TEAM.I DONT KNOW WHY THE ENGLISH RAVE ABOUT MR FARREL ,HIS ABSOLUTELY CRAP.SO IS MIKE CAT THEYRE TO OLD TO PLAY INTERNATIONALS.IT FELT LIKE WE WERE PLAYING SCHOOLBOYS,THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY DWARFED BY THE MIGHTY GREEN MACHINE...WELL PLAYED BOKS WELL BE DRINKING FRENCH CHAMPAGNE IN THIS LOVELY CITY TILL LATE....GO BOKS THE BEST...
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england got what they deserved.
it's a bad team not worthy of being called world champions.
hey.... you guys lost at cricket as well.
36 - 0 (ahh it doesn't get old)
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get risd it seems to me that after the performances of late, brian ashton needs to get rid of all the old timers and start right from scratch after the world cup keeping only the younger ones of the current squad. Its shambolic that the average age of the world cup squad is around 30. we were told that many old players were tkaen for their experience, but that lack of leadership on the pitch contradicts that. England have played stodgy slow boring rugby for as long as i can remember, if we want to move on with the times and play exciting rugby then the old boys need to be chucked aside as they are clearly stuck in their ways. you cant teach an old dog new tricks.
Reagan, vickery, kay, dallaglio, perry catt farrel etc need to be thrown aside.
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I think it is very hard to judge the English centres on any recent performance. The forwards have been producing such woefully slow ball and producing few trunovers that they are always attacking a settle defence that often has an overlap. We were lost without an out and out flyhalf but the team really fails up front. We have a lot of grunt but absolutely no dynamism. The way to win these days is quicker baller and constantly force your opposition to reorganise until they leave holes.
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I think it is very hard to judge the English centres on any recent performance. The forwards have been producing such woefully slow ball and producing few turnovers that they are always attacking a settled defence that often has an overlap. We were lost without an out and out flyhalf but the team really fails up front. We have a lot of grunt but absolutely no dynamism. The way to win these days is quicker ball and constantly force your opposition to reorganise until they leave holes.
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Corry is a disgrace as Captain - he has never had the depth, skill, ability or leadership to rule the roost. how anyone could score him more than a 3 is unbelievable. Sackey was worse, never looking International grade material. Robinson looked sharp, but had no support. It was just embarrassing
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after sitting down with the same nervous feeling i had before watching England win the world cup in 2003, i could not believe the lack of imagination! robinson was the man apart and farrell did everything he could why is is 2 league converts have the commitment????
there is not structure in approach, with such a pedestrian back line, england need to play to thier strnegths and keep it tight, but with every breakdown going the other way we seem lost!!
sacky is awful, slow, bad in defense and should never pull on an england shirt again! jamie noon works hard but does not have the guile, such a shame ellis and streatle were crocked before the cup.
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Robinson 10. He was the only one who was trying to do something.
All the rest Zero. Never seen such an unimaginative buch in all my life. Our local team on a Sunday play better than them.
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No arguments with the result - England were completey stuffed by an SA team which could have played better!
I think we need the following team against Samoa:
1. Sheridan
2. Regan (no other choice both Chuter and Mears are not international class)
3. Stevens
4. Corry (no way quick enough to play back row)
5. Shaw
6. Worsley
7. Moody
8. Easter (needs a big back row vs Samoa)
9. Gommersall
10. Wilkinson
11. Cuteo
12. Barclay
13. Hipkiss
14. Tait
15. Lewsey
Lets be honest though Ashton got it wrong last night - Catt never has been an international fly half (goot centre or full back) and it was asking too much of Andy Farrell. Paul Sackey was appaling as was Perry (who is a better player than he has shown for England recently) Also why play a lightweight 7 like Tom Ress against a very physical SA back row???
Time to forget about 2003 and start planning again - this torunamnet should see the end of the old guard for good.
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SA were strong in all depts save drops for goal. They took the game away in the first few moves and got points early. England's battle plan A was demolished immediately, and plan B was to kick the ball to SA's strong kickers to play it back behind the England slow rush on the bounce into touch. This was already SA's plan A. England had no-one to take control on the field as Duprees did, and the way Farrell (who was a great RL captain) appeared to undermine Corry in the team talk must have been demoralising, especially as he had such a poor game. Samoa will batter, so the game plan must involve playing the ball fast and running it.
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i feel england is disgracful please some one tell me why i even bother supporting them!
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Sheridan 6
Held his own in the scrum and actually looked like an international.
Regan 3
Failed again to control the lineout and what was that underarm in the first half?
Stevens 5
Did O.K against Os Du Randt and should be given another start.
Shaw 3
Useless, didn't shine in the line-out and was nowhere to be found otherwise.
Kay 2
Basically the same problems as Shaw but with that stupid kick as well.
Corry 3
Too slow to play back-row maybe a lock at international otherwise not in the team nevermind captain.
Rees 5
The only one to get to the breakdown but could not do it on his own needs to carry the ball better.
Easter 4
Looked shaky and did little throughout game.
Perry 2
When the fowards did provide the platform he wasted any good ball.
Catt 3
No longer good enough to play fly half at international level.
Farrell 2
Too slow and aimless kicking, should be dropped and forgotten.
Noon 3
Got little chance to run but looked bereft of ideas when he did.
Lewsey 5
Did O.K and now Robinson is out should play Full Back.
Sackey 4
Consistently left without support in attack defending was very poor
Robinson 8
England's best player by far, great shame that this hammering, playing in a woeful team might be his last game.
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Quite simply we were outplayed. The ratings are far too generous. The scoring for the England team should average around 2.5 with no player above 5. Yet again we overrate ourselves. It seems despite some talent we lack the ability to play as a team. I think the team are a bit of an embracement and do not deserve the chance to progress further and play against true quality like Australia or NZ. How did the All Blacks coach put it? Something like the incumbent champions are a bunch of fatties that will not get very far鈥
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Dreadful. The first England team I have ever seen give up!!
When are England going to learn without an effective fly half they can never ever win!!! Except perhaps against Mexico?
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I am digusted and ashamed to be English, and in response to another comment, if I am not allowed to criticise this performance, as an Englishman, then who can? It needs to be criticised and sharply.
What an absolute humiliation, 38-0. What more embarrassments will we have to suffer ? I am living in NZ, and was a witness at Eden Park to the start of the rot, the post 2003 world cup visit(s), and the Lions Tour. I have no more excuses to offer. I am done.
We walk the world rugby stage as if we own the sport, still looking down our noses at the Southern Hemisphere as if they were a bunch of uncouth colonials, but we are in fact a laughing stock and on the fast track to minor nation status. We are arrogant, conceited and opinionated for no good reason.
How could a nation of 60 million produce a rugby team so poorly prepared, unfit, uncoordinated, lacking in strategic intent and still expect that we stand a chance of retaining the cup? It's a disgrace. Robinson was the only pride I took out of the South Africa game.
After this humiliating world cup tournament, we need to sack the management of RFU and bring Graham Henry back to England, and get entrust to him the reconstruction of our game, from team and player development to the management structure of the sport.
Enough excuses, radical root and branch reform of the RFU is the only option.
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English rugby has neither the personnel or the infrastructure in place to mount a challenge for the world cup. Without another charismatic and technically astute coach/captain combination we really don't stand a chance. We need controlled passionate leaders on and off the pitch, then we do have the talent which can follow. Once we get this sorted we can rise as quickly as we've fallen.
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A complete shambles.
Few of those players deserve to pull on a white jersey again. They'd be better at putting up a white flag.
As a patriot I'm afraid this WC is over so let's see none of the has-beens or never-were's and use all newcomers against Samoa. We have 4 years for a decent team. Let's start now.
Ashton and all the OAP's need to depart fast. The only amusing thing was watching Jones sat next to Jake White.........in fact he'll be available after this WC!!
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i hate to say this, but i'm glad england got thrashed. we have been pretending that england has this awesome pack for such a long time. If it is so strong, why doesn't it dominate the play? why so many mistakes? and the speed that they recycle the ball seems to reflect management thought processes. lets not even go onto the backs. can we stop kicking the ball away please.
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These ratings are generally OK. However, I was surprised by Sackey. He was a liability as were most the backs. He looked impotent out there running with no belief and tackling like a 12 year old. Has England got anybody who can actually run past players apart from Jason Robinson. The big problem here is penetration and innovation. England is devoid of either so we simply have no chance against decent opposition.
It's very hard to take to see a team look so weak during a competitive match but it's a fact, we are now with Wales, Scotland and Italy as teams who'll struggle to ever win the 6 nations and be on the end of perpetual batterings from the Southern Elite.
Hold on though let's face it the score is completely normal for a team which outplayed us on every level but you have to wonder if all the players played with the same conviction as Jason Robinson, perhaps we could have least scored a few points.
We have some serious re-building to do for the future.
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The team were woeful and most should have their international careers put under the microscope as should Brian Ashton. The new team could and should go something like.
1.Sheridan
2.Regan (no-one else)
3.Stevens
4.Corry (give him a chance at lock)
5.Borthwick (try him at the lineout)
6.Rees
7.Moody
8.Easter
9.Richards (never thought i'd miss Ellis)
10.Wilko
11.Sackey (give him a chance)
12.Barcley
13.Hipkiss/Tait
14.Cueto
15.Lewsey
Our team needs more pace and ideas and if we play the same way against Samoa BA should go. He didn't trust the youngsters and it has backfired on him. Also i thought he was supposed to be an attacking genius. Where are the ideas or was Ben Kay kicking the only one.
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An embarrassing humiliation that may even be compounded by in final group stage game. It hurts, but full stop.
Let's now move on, review what we've learnt and begin to shape a different approach which better reflects the game almost a decade into the new century and harnesses the deep resources that English rugby should possess.
Let's try to draw out some of the broader issues. I've no coaching qualification, merely plied my trade as a scrum half at usually second team level with a junior club for far too many years and others will be a lot more knowledgeable than me but here are some of my first thoughts in no particular order of significance.
1. There is a basic skills issue to address. Even the greatest players make mistakes, but it has been distressing to see so many simple ball-handling and passing errors. This is something which can be addressed at all levels
2.There is a tactical issue. England won the last world cup for a variety of reasons, one of the most important of which was the power of its pack. The game has moved on; quick transference is now of the first importance. Waiting for the ball to be picked up for the next trundle has been excrutiating. It did occur to me that the world cup authorities might provide deck chairs and reading matter so that opponents might have something to do whilst awaiting the next laboured "onslaught."
Surely what matters now is quick release at the point of contact. As someone who weighed next to nothing there was no way on earth that I could bullock my way through. I soon learnt that at the point of contact with my body in the right position I could release my grip on the ball secure in the knowledge that,a flanker would be on hand to take over.
On a related issue, yes it can be a bonus if your big strong scrum half can force his way through at the fringes, but let's be clear about the basic function of the scrum half - to serve as a fast, efficient link between the forwards and the backs; the scrum half is not there to be a ninth forward
3. There is a decision-making issue. Poor, hapless Ben Kay made a monumental error which he compounded by a poor skill level. Shaun Perry kicked ball taken against the head straight into touch; a mistake which would have embarrassed even me at my lowly level. What excites me about rugby at any level is flair. Could it be that flair has been almost coached out of an English world cup generation and that when it comes to those split-second, game turning decisions they panic?
4. The sort of issues indicated above would point to matters of training and preparation. A previous respondent has already identified the possibility of over-emphasis on gym work concerned with developing bulk.
I've also seen footage of Perry passing beautifully in training when the stationary ball is picked from the ground. Yet time and again in match situations he stops, thinks, takes the extra step and then passes. This at least, in part, requires another approach to his personal training.
More generally on preparation, it is not enough to come out with chest pumped up and bellow-out the national anthem, or with (in previous games) Dallaglio raging like a bull. A more measured approach can actually be more productive, stopping players just flying in recklessly in the first 10 minutes or so.
5. There is an issue of leadership on and off the field. On the field, neither Vickery nor Corry has seemed, from our distance, to possess a sufficient range of leadership skills. Neither appears to have been able to rationalise the problems that were occuring and address them there and then. Neither seemed able to conceive of a Plan B. As a player I can recall serving under at least two captains who whilst not the best players in the team had this instinctive ability to read what was going on and the strength of personality to take us with them (without screaming and ranting).
But, of course, leadership goes beyond the pitch. I have no way of knowing whether the claims are correct or not, but there does appear to be a perception that far too many at the top of our game have dined out on the last world cup success and ignored the problems within our league system.
5. A final thing we have learnt, of course, is that a number of hopefuls for the future are simply not good enough at this level. Many responses to the original posting have identified these players. Time to say thank you and goodbye.
Lets hope that what takes place now is some sort of national dialogue.
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SA were awesome, i didnt see that many England mistakes. We were outplayed. SA & NZ are at a different level, hats off.
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You are being so generous you should replace Brian Ashto as he seemed to have lost reality before we went with Farrel & Perry in the side.
Farrel could not kick short to save his life,watched in pedestrian fashion attackers move past him and he cannot offload a ball to save his life -TOO SLOW-TOO OLD-TOO MUCH RUGBY LEAGUE & the RFU has had their 1 million wasted!
Perry - Dear me,the pot bellied scrum half completely overrated and spends more time at the base of a srum,ruck or maul i often feel he cannot understand quick phases.
Ashton missed the opportunity to blood young men at the RWC.He must resign or be fired.I hope Andrew has the guts to do it.English rugby is now falling over to foreign players looking to score with high salaries.How many english players paly in SA,NZ or OZ - NIL and look at their international sides when we are looking at an empty cupboard bare of fly halfs,scrum halves and centres.What has happened with England rugby please?
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As a SA supporter in the US I would be lying if I said I did not enjoy yesterday's game. However a year ago SA played an England team that played the same style of rugby as they did yesterday and finished the 2 match series all square. The difference to my mind now is one major factor no one has mentioned - Eddie Jones. The Boks are running different lines, creating opportunities and using their natural flair - something I have not seen since the days of Nick Mallett. Eddie I don't know what you have done but it's working.
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England,what a joke, flash in the pan, eat your heart out Lawrence,long live the Boks.
A very happy Taff.
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Top of the tree sits Robinson with 6. At the foot Perry can bask in his generous -3. As for the rest... Catt and Farrell were pedestrian all night, the pack disrupted scrums but did nothing much else and Ashton gets a 1 for not playing the only true leader available - Dallaglio.
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The scores you've given are fine...8 out of 20 for the best of our players sounds OK.
It is out of twenty, right?
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Hi
Just one thing to say how did the english players manage to score in the positive numbers? They were rubbish last night, they looked like men againts little girls. No sorry that offensive to girls, like men against mice. The scores look ok but there should be a minus (-) infront of them. Brain ashton couldn't make it as Ireland manager so what makes him good enough for England?
Come on Ireland :D
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Robinson played well, very well, and it's a huge shame on his injury. Your 8 was about right.
Farrell was atrocious, we would've been better playing 14 men than fielding him. A 0 would be generous.
Sackey was slow and unimaginative, and far too soft on defense.
Nobody else stood out to me, they were just generally poor, making basic mistakes and never compensating with anything creative.
The forwards were strong in the clinches, credit there.
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Even though I live in the desert of the Middle East and the heat might be affecting my vision and ears, I am amazed at the constant backing of our so called Rugby League saviour Andy Farrell.
I didnt expect to win against South Africa but please, come on Brian and the rest of you. Farell?
Was it Andys superb tactical kicking after every 22 drop out, which was then happily booted back into to our 22, that people favoured?. His blistering pace? his quick service to Noon? or his game line breaking side step?.
Farrel simply does not posses any skills required in the modern union game and looks totally out of place.
As for Ashton, he likes to say it straight, so do I, "England have the experience but look like a bunch of battered sunday leagueres who simply lack direction, inspiration or commitment, three things you are meant to bring to the table".
England, take a page out of Robinsons book, he's your go to man. He showed last night its possible, he broke the game line, kicked well and needs the rest of you to follow.
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Weaknesses in all areas of the game.
Very poor team performance, showed a tiny ray of hope near the end of game but still not enough to scroe a single point. In my opinion Sh Perry and C Farrell are just not good enough to play international rugby union and should not have another chance. Mike catt had a bad day but is still a good player. Robinson was a warrior and imaginative as usual. We still have to remember this was South Africa ranked 2nd. Sort it out Ashton
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Hi
Just one thing to say how did the english players manage to score in the positive numbers? They were rubbish last night, they looked like men againts little girls. No sorry that offensive to girls, like men against mice. The scores look ok but there should be a minus (-) infront of them. Brain ashton couldn't make it as Ireland manager so what makes him good enough for England?
Come on Ireland :D
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The problem with the english side is the management. To piece together a team where we have no fly half apart from the injured Wilkinson is a joke.
Moody should have been played from the beginning instead of Corrie on the flank. Lewsey is fantastic as a full back but was playing out of position so we can put Robinson in at full back. Robinson a great player and would have been better replacing Saki on the wing. What the hell are they still playing Mike Catt for he's always been iffy.
Can they not find more talented kickers in the whole of England.
15 players not playing as a team shows to me that the management of the side is the one that should get minus points, there is obviously a big problem there somewhere.
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The performance yesterday by the English rugby team was an absolute embarassment. What happens on the pitch is only part of the problem. Certain individuals must be dropped for repeatedly underperforming, notably Farrell, Sackey, Perry and co. If a Bok or an All Black or and Aussie played so horrifically they would be cut with immediate effect, yet we reassure these individuals and reward them with chance after chance. This raises questions about the coach and selectors, everything about the England set up is negative and it began before the competition started. Leaving young, dynamic players such as Abendanon, Flood and Geraghty at home and falling back on the likes of Farrell sums it up. Look at the top class nations who give opportunities to their young guys, Steyn (SA) and Barnes (Aus) are just examples. We will never compete at any level if these players arent even given a chance off the bench, and are simply left at home.
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Andy Farrell was "solid when kicking from hand" - yes, maybe he was, but seeing as every single kick he did went long and straight down the middle, inviting the 'Boks to pile straight back at England, how on Earth can it be said he had a "solid" game??? He looked totally out of depth and should not have been on the park. Let's get this performance into perspective, even Portugal managed double figures against the All Blacks, England couldn't manage anything against SA... They looked totally devoid of ideas, totally clueless. Robinson worked hard, but isn't a one man team, and poor Josh Lewsey - what service did he get??
I don't think it's all doom and gloom, though, the last 10 minutes or so, England actually kept the ball in hand and started looking like a rugby team. Get rid of Farrell and put a rugby UNION player in such a position of responsibility. That will be a start.
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What a complete disgrace that performance was. This team talks a good talk in the press but has produced nothing. Professional players??!! The England management has been awful since Woodward quit. Ashton has not brought any improvement since the Robinson debacle; whose predictions in the press this week was for an England win!! South Africa must have laughed when Dallaglio was not even in the squad ! I hope Ashton will do the decent thing and quit after England lose to Samoa.
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For the first time in my 65 years of supporting England, "right or wrong", I was ashamed of the English side. There was no courage,no pride, nothing. Farrell was a waste of space, as was Catt.Only Jason Robinson showed any bravura and get up and go. The rest should hide their heads in shame.
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This is ridiculous, rugby is a team sport, and as such marks out of ten for individual performances are useless.
so England's team performance deserves maybe 2 out of 10.
I hope we lose against Samoa and then this whole sorry embarrassment can be put to bed.
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I was under the impression that the reason Ashton got the Coaching job was the hope (vain or forlorn) that he could do something with this bunch of no-hopers. There's no belief in themselves, there's no passion, no commitment. It's as if they're all scared stiff of geting hurt. Ashton seems devoid of ideas as a coach. Is he too old (67 after all) for the role?
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1. Sheridan - 6
2. Regan - 3
3. Stevens - 6
4. Shaw - 3
5. Kay - 2
6. Corry - 4
7. Rees - 4
8. Easter - 4
9. Perry - 0
10. Catt - 2
11. Sackey - 2
12. Farrel - 3
13. Noon - 2
14. Lewsey - 6
15. Robinson - 7
So Sheridan, Stevens, Lewsey and Robinson deserve some credit I don't agree that if the team gets stuffed each player deserves 0
Seems that although we have problems everywhere our main issues lie from 9-13
Ellis will help, so will Jonny, Barkley or Flood, get the more dynamic forwards in, stick Lewsey at FB (but look for one who can kick long-term) Ellis will make a huge difference but in the centre we are appaling - I'd like to see a fit Tindall at 12 and 13 god knows (Tait has proved absolutely NOTHING) maybe Hipkiss shortterm
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Yes, England were humiliated, but by an excellent South African side. How many of the starting line up for England would have made it into the SA starting XV? Very few is the answer...Essentially, England just don't have the quality to compete with a team like South Africa. However, there are players who should be emerging as potential world-beaters (eg Mat Tait) for the future, but instead, due to possibly the worst example of how to deal with a promising young player in the history of sport by Andy Robinson (starting him in a massive six nations game against Wales, only for him to be humiliated by Henson, then substituted and dropped from the squad and not picked again for 2 YEARS!) he seems to be unable to fulfil his potential. To me, the obvious culprits of England's shameful performance in the WC are Andy Robinson, the worst manager in the sporting world who left England demoralised when he FINALLY was sacked as manager, whos only acheivement was how spectacularly he had taken the World Champions and moulded a group of players supposedly entering the 'prime' of their career (josh Lewsey) into a team of shambles, giving Brian Ashton the impossible task of forging a successful team, and the RFC, who allowed Andy Robinson to continue as head coach despite his obvious incompetence.
Hence, we have a team who were resoundinlgy and deservingly beaten by South Africa, and will probly be beaten by Samoa. If Robinson was still head coach, i can see USA beating us. Farrell and Catt simply dont have the pace to break the line, noon doesnt have the flair, and tait doesnt have the strength. Despite this, I say ditch Farrell, Jonny FH, Catt IC, Noon OC, Sackey W, Tait W, Lewsey FB....its not great, but the best we have...Samoa will be laughing...
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What planet are people on suggesting we call up Flood and Geraghty?
We've already got three players who are 10/12s in Berkley, Catt & Farrell. Even throw in Wilko too.
Granted we need a 3rd F/H. But we're desperately short of a full-back - who is the obvious name? Who can cover both of those? Cipriani.
If Noon is out (which would be a huge blessing) & Robinson we'll need one full back - Cipriani.
We could use the other to address the flair / creativity issue (JSD/Erinle) rather than another unproven 10/12 who has does nothing in his career to suggest he can cut it at this level in Flood.
Geraghty I do rate but he needs to bulk up, Flood (over a few games) would be a liability at the moment. We need neither.
Get Cipriani in, get Erinle or JSD in (or if not Scarborough) - the squad of backs was badly weighted anyway.
Maybe fake some injuries up front to Freshwater, all 3 hookers, Kay, Easter, Worsley, Easter & Dallaglio & draft in White, Hartley, Titterell, Croft, Hazell & DWS/Forrester (if fit). Granted little if any of those either would be good enough to thwart Australia but we need something fresh.
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If this is Jason Robinson's last game he ever plays then it will be a sad moment for British rugby.
He has always struck me as the most passionate,determined and spirited player we have and to lose him would be such a shame.
I just hope he can come back for the next match and try to end his career on a high like he rightly deserves after all his courage and hard work for us.
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England lost this game and any chance of defending their world cup title 4 years ago when a total lack of innovation and ability to change their game. They have had four years to bring new and inspirational talent to a team and still we put out the same predictable bunch of old timers. When you look at the difference between southern hempishere packs and Englands you see a pillar of men at their extreme fitness versus a bunch of lards, over weight and unfit. Do they really expect to provide any competition in such a state. I live in France and am totally embarrased to be associated with the worst performing Northern hemisphere team.
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Sheridan 5
Regan 3
Stevens 5
Shaw 3
Kay 3
Corry 5
Rees 4
Easter 6
Perry 1
Catt 5
Sackey 2
Farrel 4
Noon 4
Lewsley 6
Robinson 8
The only good player was Robinson, the others looked so far from class it was unbelievable. Perry should be out the equation forever and Kay, Sackey and Farrel shouldn't wear an England shirt any time soon with performances like that.
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Agree that these scores are way too high. In my rating scale a 5 is "average performance". The starting line up were all at a degree of "unsatisfactory" - bar one exceptional performance. You've got it - a Mr J Robinson (Unattached!) Should have been man of the match.
Now we have the result of the Welsh match perhaps the Taffies will leave this thread to indulge in their own misery. Oh I forgot, even when they're beaten they regard it as a draw!
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The worst English performance I can ever remember, in 30 years. We fielded a team of big girl's blouses, oddly enough wearing what looked like big girl's blouses. A deeply shameful performance. I totally agree with all the comments about foreign players shouldering out young talent from English clubs; cut the roots, and the tree dies; unfortunately that was always going to happen as soon as the game went pro and 'big money'. It's become a free-for-all, and no way back. But definitely allow Ashton to shuffle off into retirement. He must not be allowed any part in the 2011 preparations.
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oh my goodness, andy farrell was appalling! why on earth could he not learn from his mistakes, and stop kicking the ball straight down the middle to the south africans?? he should have been taken off the field within minutes.
also, paul sackey should not be picked again - he's had his chances in test match rugby, and has failed to perform every time. stick to the premiership mate!
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Clueless, inept, woeful... I can't type the real words I would like to describe the performance as they are too offensive for this site.
As for Farrell.... He should never have been in the squad in the first place. He was destroyed in Dublin by O'Driscoll and D'Arcy and is not fit to play Union at ANY level. He should s*d off back to League where he belongs.
The sooner the Union game in England dispenses with the services of every League player and coach the better (exception Robinson but he's been a union player for well over 10 years) - we would have a more dynamic and expanive game like the Aussies, Boks and Blacks instead of the turgid "play of the ball" mentality usually displayed in the premiership.
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I'm really interested in the double standards of most people and how they've actually bought into each others opinion of Farrel and how he is to blame... what happened against the US?? I suppose some of you might link him to that performance too. But Barkely did have a half decent display against the part timers... a sure measure of Class!! ha!
I think Noon & Sackey have got away very lightly here, and Corry.
But I suppose Farrel is the easy option... he's not got the RU background which appears to have justified Mike Catt's constant selection.
I'm a big fan of "we should have brought Flood" great idea, he would have been targeted as an easy tackle to break and that 10 channel would have been destroyed. When Farrel defended at 10 how many times was he ran through?? or doesnt anyone know because you weren't really watching the game in any detail because you were preparing your Farrel bashing for today.
It's not too diferent from the game against Ireland were he gave away that penalty and did nothing else wrong but took the brunt of a terrible display from the fwds who may as well not turned up. back to SA, My favorite bit was when he broke a tackle and off loaded to Catt (in space), who then showed that great vision of his and did... nothing... apparently that was Farrel's in experience according to commentary?! priceless.
Don't get me wrong I think there are much much better options, but i think it's funny that people automatically look for errors in his play which being honest there are a few but no more than the rest of the clowns, anyone see Catts kicking from hand recently? Very very poor.
has everyone forgot about the injuries too?? this was by no means our 10-13 we wanted.
Why is Noon exempt from critisism?? did anyone see the first try?? loved his "solid defence" i'm always hearing about when that nice Bokke chap went down, stood up, and played the ball inside, all about half a metre away from Noon who did not even pretend to challenge him.
Sackey didn't look interested, which when wearing the England shirt is simply unacceptable. i've seen one comment on here saying he deserves another chance... based on what exactly. Eng v SA is THE chance.
On a seperate issue i keep hearing this "we should have used this world cup to blood in youngsters" thats a great idea... then we could all be on here writing about how we aren't going to make it out of the group and calling for heads over that.
What is our problem as English "sports fans" can we just admit that they were much better and we dont have the quality. simple.
2011 we might compete, but mark my words, USA will be getting better and the world cup after that they'll be in the semis at least. they're going to bring in athletes (crazy word to us british i know!) who dont make the NFL draft, should be entertaining, seeing as they're all big guys who like contact and all do the hundred in sub 11 seconds.
who fancies 10 Wilkinson, 12 Barkley, 13 tait/Hipkis if we can get them out together??
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I have just returned from a great trip to the Stade de France. We went in the sure knowledge that the England "phoney war" (how we would come good against SA. That the last 4 years were just an illusion) would be cruelly exposed.
We were not disappointed. England were as abject as we expected.
As a very passionate rugby supporter it hurts and pains me that almost to a man we were very poor. Jason Robinson was truly a star and deserved his fantastic ovation for a heroic performance and a brilliant career.
Other than that I would award 10 out of 10 to the fantastic England and SA supporters who made it an incredible occasion and atmosphere.
The team scores 0 out of 10 and frankly they are lucky to get that.
I will be watching the last rites against Samoa and Tonga in Lord Jim's Rio de Janerio (my son is getting married to a lovely Brazilian girl which will help ease the pain!).
I am not defeatest just realistic.
The England players are just going through the motions. They look disinterested and dispirited.
Will we learn the lessons thereafter?
Of course not we are English!
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England as a whole were a disgrace, they looked as though they didn't have a clue, they seemed like they didn't know there roles, they played badly as a team. Lot's of fumbles by england too.
Poor performance all around by an england side that just didnt have a clue! Not even worth ranking at all.
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England have 2 big issues, management picking players who are utter rubbish but may have been good in their youth. And youngsters who aren't experienced enough at rugby in general.
For example, people have been mentioning the likes of allen, flood, gerahty, cipriani. To be fair they are alright players but when they play for england, allen flood and geraghty in particulaer, they are completely out of their depth, cos they havent played enough rugby.
You don't see SA NZ or AUS picking random tyros, they breed them through in their club rugby.
But there is a big issue of england picking players who are utter rubbish!!
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Farrell may have been poor, but apart from robinson he was the best english back on the field. Paul Sackey was embarrasing to watch and Mike Catt showed he cannot play 10, Noon and lewsey was quite but not really their fault
Forwards were awfull, there basic skills are shocking, they did ok in the scrum but offered nothing else
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Are you in dreamland? how can you give anyone more than 5 and only Robinson at that?.
A record defeat, not a point scored, how bad a team would you have to field to do worse?
Wake up! the RFU got in wrong from the last World Cup - excuse after excuse, we have the largest rugby playing population in the World and we never stood a chance. Do not sack a few players and the coach look at the RFU Management with their vested interest and 'safe' jobs clear them out every four years and get in a team with one objective work for the interest of English Rugby.
Do not appoint yes men or fall guys becauase no matter what happens the amagement contracts are terminated at the end of every World Cup. We want people in the job with one focus, those who want to really do the job for England having proven themselves runnng successful clubs and businesses they do not want the job for money and the perks thye are past that phase in their lives they only want the chance to work for the game, not well meaning amatuers professional men with good track records.
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Oh dear! I thought the one good thing about England being outclassed was that we would see an end to the open season on Farrell; but that was naive of me. 'MJS'decided that it was all his fault and nothing to do with the fact that we now have very mediocre forwards in the loose: no Johnson, Back of Hill. What an immature rant about 'rugby league players and coaches'.
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Oh dear! I thought the one good thing about England being outclassed was that we would see an end to the open season on Farrell; but that was naive of me. 'MJS'decided that it was all his fault and nothing to do with the fact that we now have very mediocre forwards in the loose: no Johnson, Back or Hill. What an immature rant about 'rugby league players and coaches'.
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For starters lets stop and take breath and remember not too long after the last World Cup an exasperated Woodward resigned as coach and bemoaned the blinkered attitude of the RFU and the Premiership Clubs lack of ambition.
What has ensued is the RFU basking in the glory of it's team's achievement; weaving their hype and spell in the media; cashing in and generally resting on their laurels. The players have been pampered and their hunger and desire has dissapeared as their bank balances have grown disproportionately to their actual Rugby ability.
It is largely the english way to expect, out of arrogance that once you have become the best that you have divine right to stay there.
The RFU must now accept that they have to rebuild their national team over time, and build a new ethos where desire and hard work are top of the list and not quibbles over contract payments, image rights and corporate sponsorship.
The clubs must accept their part in it too, and allow their players to be called upon by their country as first priority at all times with central contracts and then licensed to the clubs of their choice- the preparation for this year's Six Nations was the last straw.
So after all this don't tell me "It's all Andy Farrell's fault."
Have a look at some of the Commitee men on their Corporate junkets up in the stands and ask them if they are going to examine their own contribution to the state of their team, their game and their sport.
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brian ashton first leaves out geraghty and flood then keeps farrell in the team! why does he give him so much chances
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robinson played well but thats what everyone should expect of all 15 players nothing is going to happen if only one player plays well.
9 Richards
10 Wilkonson but flood while he is injured.
11
12 barkley maybe
13 Tait/ Noon
14 Lewsey
15 Robinson
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O.K. Prepared myself for the past four years for this big group match. Nails grown nicely to provide plenty of gnawing, bok shirt on, biltong at the ready. Juan Smith scored, great. Braced myself for the English backlash... JP scored, brilliant! Surely the Poms were now going to get serious and play like World Champions .... Eventually the substitutes were being brought on in numbers. Wasn't this a bit risky? These are the World Champions we're playing against, aren't they?
It really took a a long time to realise that this was as good(?) as England were going to get. It was fantastic to keep a clean sheet against them but it seemed hollow, somehow. I still have a gnawing feeling that I moved onto the cheese and port without enjoying the main course. England were simply not there. Even when they camped on the Boks' try-line near the end, it hardly caused a ripple in my glass. They were never going to score.
Apart from Jason Robinson, (I would swap him for Monty any day - get well soon and thanks for the great entertainment during your career) England were woeful. I must say, however, that it was great to see Mike Catt play to his full potential. I haven't enjoyed a performance of his so much since he rolled over for Lomu in '95.
Admittedly, the ref seemed intent on making a few friends should he decide to spend his NH winter on a sojourn to Cape Town. When last did you hear a SA fan say that?
I hope you guys bounce back against Samoa and give the Aussies a go but somehow I can't see it. See you in four years' time.
Hull City? Long story but I love 'em. Go Tigers!
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We have just moved to Canada and spent ages working out how we could view the rugby. What a waste of time and money! How disappointing when the English team can't even score a point. I think you are way too generous with your scores, I wouldn't have given any of the players higher than a 3.
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I think we all knew that England would struggle due to a total lack of pace and imagination in the backs. Also, there are too many has-beens like Corry, Catt and Farrell, who are out of their depth in top company.
However, the question that all the Six Nations teams need to address is why have they all been so bad so far? Wales were totally outclassed at home by Australia, Ireland were worse than England in tonight's game against Georgia, as well as very poor against Namibia. Scotland laboured against mighty Portugal, and will be thrashed by New Zealand.
The Southern Hemisphere teams are way ahead in terms of pace,imagination and physicality. It should be back to the drawing board for the rest. England need to re-build for 2011 with young, pacy, hungry players and ditch all the old guard.
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funny to read MJS rant of league, England's 2003 world cup champion's defensive coach = league, Jason Robinson = league, Shaun Edwards = League (Wasp'd coach incase MJS didn't know). Australia's most popular rugby = league, New Zealand's training game = league.
Obviously if you were rugby educated you'd see the contribution of league at dragging union into the current century, now it's union's turn to move us on, Farrell is too easy to pick on for mistakes, at least he knows how to tackle, and if he ever watched the premiership he'd realise it about the most competative league in the world, Heineken cup champions on a par with super 14's champions.
It's the lack of overall talent, investment at lower league level and feeder level and lack of foresight and creativity plus balls that's our problem, not farrell!!
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This is aimed at post no. 253. To be honest m8, we might have a bit of misery losing today but I'd rather lose by 12 points than 36-0! England are world champions and have ten times the number of rugby players than Wales. So although we lost, (no, we didn't draw), I'd still rather be Welsh than English right now
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I think your ratings are plainly wrong, had the English players played to the rates suggested, 4's, 5's & 6's, then England would have posted some points or restricted the South Africans, 36:nil is a complete drubbing. The South Africans didn't put on their best performance either.
Bring on Georgia, they'll beat England if current form is to go by. I hope the All Blacks get a crack at England.
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Hi -first of all sport comes in cycles and the English game is currently not good enough to compete on the top tier of International Rugby.Look at the Guiness Premiership and compare it to Super 14- the premiership is back in the dark ages. The super 14 is more entertaining open fast.
The english game was competitve in 2003 not now- not the players the system!it will be again i don,t doubt that. For all New Zealands Rugby Religion-they have only won the world cup once to date. The continued blaming on Englands downfall on Farrell is so one eyed.He is no better or worse than Catt or any other English back. Will English Rugby fans get real and realise that the team is just not up to it- its not the coach , not the players -its the system -its way outdated now!
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What disturbed me most of all about the England performance was our inability to do the basics. I'm talking about recycling the ball quickly, running from depth and and at angles, making touch with our kicking out of hand, passing accurately and allowing our backs to run onto it... I could go on. We looked terrified with the ball in hand. I don't think South Africa played particularly well... they just did all of the above and we did not. Unfortunately for the English, New Zealand are leagues ahead. A terrifying prospect if we even make it out of the group stage.
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Every cloud has a silver lining.......
You were made to look woeful by a very good South African side, we were very nearly beaten by Georgia. Have got to look at the positives for now, we are both still in the competition....but for how long?
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The markings are a little high to say the least (with the exception of Jason Robinson) Dads army looked just that.
The whole selection committee and coaching team need to resign. The world has moved on from Carthorses to Thoroughbreds. The trouble is everybody could see that after the gloroius 2003 result except the so called experts at the RFU
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I'm sorry to say as a proud Englishman that I turned over after 50 minutes to watch Get Carter! England were worse than poor, they were dull and lifeless. There are no combinations being built - a fact sadly exposed by a very good, but not outstanding South African team. Too much time has been given to short termism, as signalled by the inclusion of too many players who are a shadow of their former selves. It seems to me that we have to move on and give the "second string" a chance to develop. There is an old coaching saying that performance is more important than results - England cannot produce either as it stands, so the old guard must make way, and the public must accept the inevitable initial losses. Or they could watch Rocky Balboa, a has-been pretending to be something he no longer is - a world champion.
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I agree with those posts defending Andy Farrell, he was one of the better (least bad) backs and kicked better out of hand than Catt. But he's an easy target, isn't he MJS, he's ex-league?
Your brainless blog doesn't seem to mention Jason Robinson's background!
I understand the negativity but does anyone honestly think that after 4 years' lack of planning, Brian Ashton could pick ANY 15 players that would have given SA a closer game?
Lessons learnt? After the RWC, forget about "now" (6N included) and start rebuilding.
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i don't understand why people are surprised with england's performance at this world cup.
historically england has never been a top contender, there was the obvious good month an 1/2 4 years ago but that was just a fluke , nothing more.
this is the rugby england is know for, only over-hyped by the english themselves (the same as in soccer)
the welsh and french are the only NH teams that have a slight clue.
if the english want to learn how to play good rugby they should start thinking about sending their players to train in SA, NZ and AUS, that is if any team in the SH will have them, which I highly doubt.
get a clue england.
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Firstly as a rugby supporter, I really feel for the disgruntled England supporters.
Several contributions in this blog point to the club and premiership needing work and possibly reducing the numbers of the internationals playing in club sides.
Fair comment! I know you do not see many internationals playing in the SA Currie cup or the New Zealand sides!! This allows the locals to develop their skills and to develop and establish combinations.
The bottom line is England has the talent... Management and poor deciscion making has reduced the England side to where it is.
Start building for 2011
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The scores are over rated by 1 or 2 considering the zero points scored.
My enduring memory will be of Jason Robinson's blistering burst shortly before his injury: I wish him all the very best in his recovery and future retirement. Bravo Billy Whizz you have done us proud!
South Africa were clinical and effective where we were bumbling and ineffective. SA will have to up their game several levels against NZ when they finally get to meet them...
Regarding English rugby management, I believe Brian Ashton is only the current messenger, and he has made the best fist he could: as many contributors before me have said, the real blame lies in the RFU upper echelon.
Incompetence, indecisive, meddling, undirected, bumbling, bungling and covert come to mind. The real blame lies with Francis Baron, Martyn Thomas, John Spencer and their combined entourage. These guys deserve 1 out of 10 for their performance, starting from 2003. Sack the lot and lets have a new professional management team in from now going forward.
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My god, blame Andy Farrell. Why does Faz upset so many Union people ? Comments about his League background seem very unfair.
Half the Australian RU team have a League Background.
Jason Robinson ?
How about LOMU ? Ex League !
I am sorry but he hardly got any ball. All I saw was a frustrating game of slow plodding forwards doing those rucks and mauls. Are they afraid of passing the ball out ? Does it not make more sense to play it like a RL game ? In fact why don't the RFU just borrow the GB RL team - they may actually then win at International Level - in the RU arena anyway !
Listen - stop the snobbery and look at the causes. Is ANDY FARRELL THE REASON WHY ENGLISH RU ARE SO POOR ?
Personally I put it down to the lack of ball handling skills from RU players and a lack of vision to try something different.
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The fact that Farrell was a league player is immaterial. He must now be judged as a Union player. I havent seen him play league, but in Union and against the Boks he was pedestrian at best and ceratianly hasnt a clue about the game. He was lazy and lacked flair.
That's if you compare him to world class sides - not England/Irish sides admittedly.
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Andy Farrell kept banging restarts down the SA throats, because someone told him to do this!
Who told him, and why didn't this person tell him to try something else?
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Its time that the RFU took the step and looked at the future of English rugby. We go to a world cup with an ageing squad hoping that the experience and pride will reap the rewards. In todays game that doesnt happen . International teams now all have pride and experience , but the opposition players have that experience and are 10 years younger . 2 players stood out on friday , Robinson and Stevens at tight head , lets not forget Stevens was up against one of the best loose head props in the world and saw him off . Yes he gave away a silly penalty but he was there to do a job in the scrum which he did . As for Faz , he is a class player no matter what code . But .. and this is the big but England want to pay him at centre , why ? he was an open forward. He has a boot but he has hardly had the chance to use it since changing code yet everyone expects him to step up and turn it on in the test arena with 4 days notice. Its time that the England management gave the youngsters their run . Ok so they will get hammered at the start , but how else will they get the experience to compete at this level unless they are given the chance before they too get too old . Wake up England and get the chariot rolling again. It wont happen overnight but anything has to be better than what we saw on friday .
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Noon at outside center? That's been tried. Corry as captain? Tried. Playing people out of their club positions? Tried. All of these things have failed. Why complicate things?
1. Sheridan
2. Regan (no choice)
3. Stevens
4. Shaw
5. Borthwick (Captain)
6. Rees
7. Lund (Moody impact sub)
8. Easter
9. Gomarsall (no choice)
10. Wilkinson
11. Robinson (Abendanon to fly out if Billy crocked)
12. Barcley
13. Tait
14. Cueto (consistent on the wing)
15. Lewsey
Bench:
Freshwater
Chuter
Kay
Moody
Richards
Hipkiss
Noon (no choice - but would rather have Flood flown out as FH/IC backup if Noon is injured)
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Well done to the Boks. I am South African and watched the game in a pub (sea of green) in Johannesburg.
When Jason Robinson left the field he got a round of applause from all the Bok supporters in the pub.
For the rest of the ratings, how can the team average 5?
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Have some bloody faith in our country!
We have key players injured at this moment in time, we will prove to all of you that have slated England rugby these last few days that they can reach the finals and possibly win!
Lets wait and see if we do how many of you change your oppinions!
bloody turn coats!!
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Truly dreadful, but not a surprise given the poor build up since the last world cup.
The pack - so long the central element of England's game - looked tired and disorganised - whilst the centres seemed to have neither ideas or pace.
I hate to pick on someone who is a controversial choice anyway, but how you can say Andy Farrell had a solid game is beyond me? His pace was leaden, his handling poor and his thinking slow. He may be able to kick but at stand-off you need someone with pace and flair that can create openings and space.
Deeply embarrassing!
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Yes the England team were dismal. Yes, we looked like we should be playing in a different division to best teams in the world. However, I would like to say how disappointed I am that once again supposed England fans booed the team off at half time. Hopefully those of you that weren't there didn't hear it, but I think it is an absolute disgrace to pull on a white shirt, turn up at the stadium and then not support your team. I completely agree with all the comments about how badly we played but that is no excuse at all. Call yourselves supporters? Support them then!
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England were rubbish. Robinson was the exception. The players should be utterly ashamed of themselves, s should Ashton. Why is Dalaglio still in the squad? Farrell is a joke. Take up netball, boys.
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ratings are high, Billy wiz Robinson was an exception, however he was always going to put more effort into this WC knowing it was to be his last, deep down maybe he knew the game against the Bocks could be his last and a substantial effort on the field due to this. Pride was evident when ever the ball was received. What a different story the score sheet may of told if the whole squad adopted the same ethos. The only way forward is back to the drawing board and build for the next RWC. The RFU need to look at the New Zealand pre season set up with the game between the possible and probable鈥檚, the score line is always close between the two but ultimately some 50 + guys who can all play the same standard and have good skills. i guess this to big an ask from one of the biggest rugby nations.
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Could someone explain to Andy Farrell that he's now playing union not league.
What is the point at using long drop outs when your not giving your forwards a chance to compete for the ball, and the boks are just going to run it straight back at you.
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I find a lot of these comments a bit sour-faced. It was uninspired and slow, but that much was predictable....by attempting to bruise SA into submission (surely the gameplan) we would play slowly.
After the USA game, there was simply no way England were going to be able to beat SA at their own game and within 5 minutes all hope of our tactics working passed out the window. We had no plan B.
We were beaten fair and square by a well-drilled, confident and tactically assured SA. Credit where it is due. England's chronic lack of confidence has been growing for years (since first poor Six Nations post-'03) and was surely the route of the problem. We simply didn't believe we were up to it before crossing the line.
That said, most of this negativity is nonsensical madness. This was not unexpected and the scores were not unfair. Surely an acceptable international performance score is generally '7', which given the scores makes it clear most under-performed. No arguments from me. If anything, some scores are a bit harsh!
Also, I must express amusement at the number of posts repeated ad nauseum here? Were you trying to make this post look popular or something??
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Can anyone understand Corry's selection as captain?
Committed he may be, but he is too used to losing. Back to the Robinson era, he has simply led average to poor performances too many times for me to believe he is made of the right stuff for captaincy. Leadership should not be a reward for toil. It must be given to those who show creativity in adversity, who can get peformances out of players that they didn't know they had in them. I groaned when I heard he'd been selected as captain again. Losing and winning are both habits. And captains need to be habitual winners. LDL'A anyone?
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as a rugby fan( welsh fan) i would love to see all the home nation teams do very well, but england, i can't believe how far you gone backwards since the last world cup, you were truly awful last night, no idea of where you were going, 1 player could hold his head up high, robinson, the rest were an utter shambles, i thought wales were drifting without a clue were they were going but england are worse, farrell is the most overrated centre to come out of rugby league ( worse than harris ) he looks totally out of his depth, you'll be lucky to get out of the group stages.
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Guys
A very bad performance but one question on the backs and the relative scoring for Robinson. He is a great player but was one of the reason's he shone so much was that he was playing as full-back and hence got a decent amount of ball? A fan rather than an expert but I think criticism of the team for quite a while is that the ball hasn't been reaching the backs. Especially Friday with the poor kicking game being played .
With Sackey for instance he was poor on defence but he can be very fast going forward. However about the only chance he might have had to demonstrate that would have been if he had held that near interception towards the end of the game. Cueto didn't even get on the bench and was played at full-back against the US so what chance has he been given to show his speed?
We need to drastically re-think the way the game is organised in this country and prune out a lot of dead wood, both on and off the field. However I'm not so sure we're as devoid of talent as some people are suggesting.
Steve
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That was the most depressing England game I have ever seen and there have been quite a few over the last couple of years. Robinson was the only player who could come out of that game with any credit. Farrell failed to show any justification as to why he was paid so much to switch codes let alone be in the starting side, he also failed realise that in rugby union the long dropouts are not always a good thing especially if there is a lack of a chase.
Everybody is giving out about Ben Kay (and that kick was shocking) but apart from a couple of good performances in the warm up games what has Simon Shaw actually done? it looks like he put in the effort to get in the team and that's it.
Perry - not up to it at this level.
It's sad to see that the players who showed promising glimpses in the 6 nations (Flood, Geraghty) aren't even in the squad and would have definitely faired better than Catt at 10.
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FREE SPEECH !!!
Mr T writes "most of this negativity is nonsensical madness"... really? Most of the posts even those from outside of "our green and pleasant land" are honest. They may appear negative and repeated, but so many opinions all leading to the same conclusion that the nation lacks leadership, ambition, and (dare I say it in fear of being criticised for being negative) GUTS cannot be wrong. This is a forum for voicing our opinion. The English team are (and should be) in disgrace.
It is time that the management and team need to realise that they are conning the supporters. This World cup is the most expensive ever to be a spectator at. I agree with other sentiment on this forum that players should not be booed of the pitch, and it is important for them to understand that much of this frustration is levelled at the coach rather than the players. But we need to be able to speak out after the game.
I just hope someone from the RFU is reading these comments. Maybe they could take them into the dressing room before the next match and throw them down as a catalyst to get the lads motivated.
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Thouroughly embarassed by the USA and SA performances, but on the evidence of the last 4 years in the 6 Nations and Autumn Internationals, I'm not surprised.
The English game has not progressed one jot since the last WC when Martin Johnson and his pack ruled the world and Jonno Wilkinson, Matt Dawson and the backs had pace, invention and reliability.
Just look and see how the Southern Hemisphere sides (and, dare I say it, the Welsh) have adopted big, strong but athletic forwards allied to blistering pace and ball handling skills behind.
What have we achieved?
1) Three years of the Andy Robinson regime when Uncle Tom Cobleigh and his dog were picked in the procession of players who appeared in the Red Rose shirt - Robinson should have bit the bullet long before he departed.
2) Four years of constant bickering and dog-fighting between the RFU and the Premier League Clubs as to who is top dog (sorry about the constant dog references, but the SA performance reminded me of our canine friends' main meal). Will the new agreement between the RFU and the PL work - I doubt it very much, and will it help Team England ---- NO.
3) An RFU management that hasn't a clue about what to do, with a Chief Executive who should be sacked.
4) Too many foreign players being offered and taking the obscene amounts of money being thrown at them by the PL clubs - taking places that should be open for our promising young players to get blooded in club rugby and having a chance to hone their skills for the biggest stage of all.
I don't blame Brian Ashton. He has had 1 year to prepare - nowhere near long enough. The 6 Nations probably showed him how bare the cupboard was (hence the selection of the golden oldie brigade for the WC in the hope of one last hurrah), and the autumn internationals merely proved how the SH teams had moved on to a higher level.
He needs a chance to build a new squad for 2011. Ditch the has beens (only Jason Robinson - still magnificent, and Lawrence Dallaglio can retire with some pride over their past achievements), and start to find the players capable of matching the SH.
However, he will almost certainly get slated by all and sundry (particularly the media) if we don't do the Grand Slam in the 6 Nations next year. Like the England football manager's job, why do they bother to put up with all the backbiting and abuse. Beats me.
I just hope we can produce a better performance against the Samoans, get through to the QFs, which was really the sum of our hopes for this WC.
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Come on guys lighten up - take your medicine ( heaven only know you have rammed us ours over the years) and move on
can i suggest a few training ground "accidents" requiring squad removal and substutions.
last thought dont go back to sir Clive , he was lucky to have a generation of winners at his disposal,
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I'm not a huge rugby fan, but I always follow the national teams in whatever sport. I have to say the England team lacked conviction, heart and creativity. England are not guaranteed anything from any tournament or match and they should take pride in the national shirts that thousands of other people would give their right arm for. The team should take a long hard look at themselves and get used to the idea that talk will only get you so far. You need to put in performances as well. I hope Samoa beat us so we don't qualify for the next round. Perhaps we can stop using the past successes to motivate current stars and it might bring a much needed evolution within the game.
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As a south african fan i think england wre totally dire. they lack any imagination, pick out of form players and instead of looking to the future they want to bring back past it players. Ok Du Randt is 35 but is still one of the best props in the world, but people like Mike Catt and Dallagio should not be in the squad.
if i was to pick an england team with an ounce of adventure and speed i would go for.
1.Andy Sheridan
2.Andy Titterall
3.Phil Vickery
4.Chris Jones
5.Alex Brown
6.James Forrester
7.Tom Rees
8.Joe Worsley
9.Harry Ellis
10.Jonny Wilkinson
11.James Simpson-Daniel
12.Shane Geraghty
13.Matthew Tait
14.Mark Cueto
15.Josh Lewsey
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Maybe England might win against North Korea
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Are you serious? The ratings for the Irish players are pretty similar to the English and we didn't deserve anything over 5 even though we won. England couldn't even score so what is your excuse for rating the English players? I can not get over your score of 8 for Robinson, what planet are you on? Did he score? English Journalist consistantly put their head in the sand when it comes to rugby. When are you going to wake up? If England spent half the time they spend lifting weights on basic skills, they might actually be able to score points
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#15's comment about England still being the world champions highlights the very problem. Winning a world championship in any sport only makes you the champion at that moment. After that, never mind 4 years later, the title is of no real significance. I suspect that England rugby has fallen into complacency in a mistaken belief that the title "champion" would magically keep them at the top of the game. Much like England cricket did in winning The Ashes. Awards all round and endless self congratulation. But when they were challenged again they went as lambs to the slaughter. It is in the very nature of sport that winning is a transitory achievement. After the whistle a winning performance becomes history and you are only as good as the next performance.
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I hope the management team will review their ultra conservative & exhausted play tactics, also to reconsider replacing players including...Sackie (falls over if somebody even loks at him)/Corry (cqan stay but NOt as captain)/Farrell(did he have his weetabix? always sluggish)
why does northern hemisphere rugby always involves player running straight into a brickwall (oppositions defence)& never offload to the flanks, It's not rocket science...just spend 10secs watching N.Z or S.A & maybe we'll have chance to proceed further.
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Joel is right; but how come it takes a South African to tell us that the "Old Guard" have no right to be there? Dallaglio, Catt & their likes have had their day (and a good one it was) but I believe that they did their country a disservice not to refuse the call-up & advise Ashton of his mistake. Farrell also has been guilty of wearing the Emporer's clothes.
Another thing that the management and English rugby in general should bear in mind is that big does not equate to good; a couple of years ago Scotland realised this and ran the English forwards into the ground by half time.
England must look at the talents in the country and harvest them, instead of relying on past glories and arrogance.
Some people need to do some straight talking and set England rugby back on track. Unfortunately, the RFU "establishment" is likely to preclude this. We reap what we sow.
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Just got back from Paris - seemed like 40,000 fans paid to make the trip, and were let down by the team. With the absolutely honourable exception of Jason R, England were pitiful - no effort, no leadership, no appetite, no skill. Just a horrible performance, from the 15 minute pat-a-cake warm-up, to the end
Need to start again and plan for something better in 2011 - Flood, Geraghty, JS-D, and some other young guns should be started asap. Goodbye to the old stagers, goodbye to Ashton and goodbye to his psychologist - the last of these really got them up for the battle on Friday night!
Clear them out and find some people with some real hunger - does anyone think that Jonno would have accepted this sort of attitude from his team
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Hey, I was at the ground having traveled all day to get there, and spent all my savings on tickets to see my team get beaten that bad was heart breaking. I would love to give them all 10 but cant get past a 3.
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I am an English Boer. And proud. Boys, it was better than Majuba Hill or Magersfontein. Some advice for England, offered in good faith: forget about Johnny Wilkinson coming to the rescue. Golden talisman he was once, but now he is a wounded soldier. Too injury-prone, carries mega-liability now. Replace Noon with a specialist flyhalf who can also play centre. Forget about Robinson. Need fit players now. England great 4-5 years ago. Now merely in a cyclical trough that hits every team except the All Blacks and Australia. Choose young, strong players and build for the future. Corry a loser. Drop him.
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I am a South African supporter and as you can belive I am very happy with the Sprngbok's perforamnce on Friday night. Must confess, my man of the match was Jason Robinson as that poor guy put his body on the line and played his heart out. If England had 14 other players who are willing to do that you might get a winning team. I believe the avg score for the England team should be 2-3. The worst peformance ever and don't believe that it will get better. Teams need to win to build up confidence. When was the last game England won?
Good luck
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Sean Edwards for coach!!!
Something is clearly wrong, and it has to stem from the coaching staff...how is it possible to pick up all these freak injuries. No wonder we're running aound like headless chickens!
Call up James Simpson Daniel,
Corry must be dropped, a hero but not quick enough to play at this level!!
Why oh why does Perry continue to give slow ball, if we are to have any chance of challenging in the back line, we must get quick ball! Gommersall to start, Richards on the bench.
9: Gommersall
10: Wilko
11: Cueto
12:Barkely
13: James Simpson Daniel
14:Tait
15: Lewsey (Robbo to come into the frame when fit)
We must be cleverer against Samoa, run into space, not the player. We will win the game (just), but if it turns into a battle, how many more injuries will we pick up?!
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Just another chapter in the sorry saga that is British sporting performances. It's not a rugby problem, it's a British sporting cultural problem.
The similarities between the football, cricket and rugby are scary, no consistancy, and happy to take one decent performance (ashes, one off wins against germany, world cup) and sit back and bask, while all the time slipping backwards.
As a Antipodean, I say long may it continue, because if Britain were able to bring all it's playing and financial resources to bear, it'd be unstoppable.
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It makes me laugh at how many people think the problems stem from the backs. The issues lie in the scrum and at scrum half.
Poor ball retention and when provided poor distribution from the base, puts immediate pressure on the back line.
Close to the line, there are forwards running in the line rather than running off angles behind the ball carrier. Its easy to defend against a line running the same way but when you mix it up it puts defenders in two minds and creates gaps.
The perfect example was when Farrell was tackled close to the line but managed to stay up in the tackle, a player running an angle near him and it would have been a definate try, but its just old fashioned and poor.
I struggle to watch RU in this country these days. Winning the World Cup was probably the worst thing that could have happened for the game in this country. We had years to catch up with them then, and we have further to catch up now.
Now watching the southern hemisphere countries play, what a difference.
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A major problem facing English rugby, like most sports in England, is that it's soccer that takes up all the media attention and the focus of youngsters. You'd hardly notice that we were defending a world title looking at the media coverage and walking around any city in the country - it's always about soccer. Funny that France can win the Soccer World Cup and the Rugby World Cup and be passionate about both. Oh, and tennis, cycling, motorsports...
The RFU have done nothing to build on our victory and get youngsters into the game and get some media attention away from soccer. Compare the depth and future stars of our woeful squad with the southern hemisphere teams or France and you'll see why things will only get worse unless the RFU wake up.
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Whilst agreeing with 90% of the comments made I feel that Englands build up to the defence of the cup was doomed to fail from the start as a result of clubs having a soccer type mind set in that they now seem to be driven by "Money", what with all of the different cup games and anglo leagues the money thing comes to the fore. Clubs are saying to the RFU no So and So will not be released for squad training because if we win our next game we will make x amount of 拢sssssss and stand a chance of playing in Europe etc. So what if when we let you have our players they are tired and injuried, tough. What ever happened to clubs being big enough and having enough strength in depth to allow their star players to go and play for their country. Watched an after match talk yesterday in which the thorny subject of overseas players was discussed, whilst overseas playes should be allowed to ply their trade in this country it should not be at the expense of home grown players. You look at most of the team in the premier league and you will find that at lest 40% players of most teams are from overseas. Yes they do provide very entertaining and skillful rugby but again at the expense of homegrown players. Young players are never going to get the chance to improve and hence English rugby suffers. Now before some of you start shouting and screaming at me remember I am entitled to my opinion, I agree with the person who said there are too many players whom are not now up to it but for some strange reason because they shout louder they get selected, A few past players I feel have that disruptive element to them and bring only negatives to the party so to speak. What to do!!, would bring back Woodward do any good!! don't think so, so who in the country has that some thing which infuses players to do well for the country. Trouble is that as Mr W Carling once said there are too many elderly gentlemen at HQ who are really in touch with todays game. Gentlemen I look forward to your comments/replies.
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More then five, no way. Apart from JR nobody else on that pitch was interested. If we carry on like this we will not beat Tonga or Samoa and as for the six nations we'll be lucky to be sixth.
Something needs to change and change soon!!
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Is anyone else fed up with the sight of Martin Corry in an England shirt? He turns in poor performances time and time again and is just to slow to play in the back row of an international rugby team.
We'd be much better off with Moody playing at 6 and rating Rees as a 4 is doing him a dis-service. He was often first to the breakdown but with Corry and Easter donkeying along behind him he never really had any chance of retaining or counter rucking against 3-4 bok forwards who were there shortly after him!
After this world cup we should get rid of any players who probably won't be around in 4 years, yes we might lose a few games in the short term but we aren't doing any better with an "established" team!!
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I was there on Friday and yes they were awful. SA were not great but they didnt need to be, they will need to improve as the tournament progresses. The whole northern hemisphere seems to be so far behind. Are the coaches blind we seem nowhere at the breakdown and get no quick ball. SA kicked high to us and chased well, our back 3 didnt play as a unit and the catcher got isolated and either got turned over or provided slow ball. Now onto my main point. Please dont blame Farrell for the rfu's incompetence. Age group rugby is too influenced by a few public schools and our academies also seem full of these lads. Fine if all the promising players attend a handful of schools but of course they dont. We are frequently reminded how many players we have but how many really have a chance of rising to the top? Ask yourself would Jason Robinson ever have been discovered if he had played union as a lad? Sack Ashton and please no more teachers from these schools as our coach. We need a foreign coach who will select on ability and form with no regard to which school you attended.
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Go back to the six nations. Toby Flood and Shane Geraghty - tremendous players who should have been flown out the minute Barclay and Wilkinson got injured. Matthew Tait is criminally underused by England and the forwards need pace i.e Moody, Rees, Lund etc. I am Scottish and want to see at least one of the home nations get to the semi finals and right now none of them deserve to be there.
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What a disaster, quite frankly the worst performance I have ever seen in my life from an England 15.
I am even considering not watching any further perfomances to save the embarrassment of not even making the quarter finals.
Socks need to be pulled up and a much needed injection of passion and desire is required from our team if we are to retain any credability in this tournament.
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I think the scores are generous to say the least.
In the match against the USA, I thought it looked like the England team had been on the rough cider before the game. They were slow, couldn't throw accurately, couldn't catch, etc.
Friday's match was just painful. Even Portugal managed to score more points than us this weekend!
Astoundingly, if you read Mike Catt's article in the sports section of the Sunday Telegraph yesterday, you would be amazed. We actually decided he must be concussed, as the match he recounted wasn't what we watched!
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The team shold be this for the Samoa game
1 Sheridan
2 Regan
3 Stevens
4 Shaw
5 Kay
6 Moody
7 Rees
8 Easter
9 Gomarsall/Richards
10 Wilkinson(if fit or Flood)
11 Sakey
12 Barkley
13 Tait
14 Cueto
15 Lewsey
16 Chuter
17 Freshwater
18 Borthwick
19 Worsley
20 Gomarsall/Richards
21 Catt
22 Flood (Hipkiss if Wilco not fit)
I feel this team gives us a slightly more penetrating back line (as penitrating as possible with given players) an it plays our quickest fronts (Moody and Rees)
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So Mike Ford thinks we have no world class players and he says that in front of the camera during the world cup ! This is supposed to be a professional outfit what is he doing trying to undermine their already fragile confidence ? What is going on ? Also someone has commented that he saw several of the players drinking in Paris on saturday night. You couldnt make it up.
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Friday night was the most depressing display of English rugby I have ever had the misfortune to witness.
We lacked any kind of imagination going forward, we looked naive in defence. I lost count of the number of times our backs trundled onto slow ball, only to take the first tackle and loose it to SA.
Jason Robinson was the only bright point in an otherwise very dark and depressing game. He looked visibly devastated when he came off hurt. The man is a gladiator and his team mates need to look at him and try to emulate his efforts.
I agree with the other comments about the age of the team. Great as they were, and they really were awesome, there time has come and gone. We do have a wealth of talent in this country and need to start exploiting it.
England鈥檚 management is not wholly to blame but comments like 鈥4 years ago we had a team of superstars, now i鈥檓 not sure we have one鈥 This was England鈥檚 assistant coach!! What?! Honest, yes, demoralising for the team, without doubt. Time to shut up and put up!
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if you flog players into the ground with too many games, meaningless end of season play offs (the team finishing top should win the PL) and then top it off by going on a ridiculous summer tour to SA with half a team (was it really just to aclimatise to the altitude?? because if so then someone needs to tell them that most of France venues are at sea level!), all after virtually non stop rugby since the last World Cup then that is the type of performance you will get !!
Perhaps (although i somehow doubt it)the RFU management will start to realise that knackered players do not perform, are more susceptible to getting injured and and that there are more things to rugby than simply trying to maximise revenues but until they do then they are simply killing the golden goose and we will never get back to having a crack at being champions. Yes the players did not perform on the field (with the notable exception of Jason R) but the main reasons are off the field and SCW would never had stood for what has gone on since he departed.
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I was their. Paid over 拢400 to watch the biggest pile of....... I have ever seen. We were so lucky the springboks didn鈥檛 get out of first gear. The ratings are well too high at least 6-7 players should be in the minus points. If it wasn鈥檛 for Billy Whizz great performance and getting a standing ovation I would have been suicidal after travelling all that way and paying all that money. Did not make matters any better when you end up spending over 拢5 a pint to drown your sorrows. Never mind there all ways 2012, I imagine Lawrence Dallagio will talk his way back into the squad maybe Bill Beaumont should dust his boots off. Even though I say all that I will be watching and hoping England do turn up at some point to this world cup.
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My South African friends were gloating pre match that England didn't have a chance. "48-18 to the mighty Springboks" was their general consensus. I pessimistically replied that England would be lucky to score a single point.....I wish I'd have gone to the bookies.
Another dismal performance. I live in the US and it is becoming increasingly embarassing for me explaining that England are the "World Champions". We are in real danger of going home early.
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i was fortunate to be sat in the south stand in the middle of 300 boks, one suggested that because he had spent his savings on coming over to watch such a s%^& game that the english should hand over their women.... his mate replied.. "they already have: they're on the pitch!"
I propose the following team for Samoa, which will definately provide an improved performance:
1 my mother
2 my grandmother
3 my great grandmother
4 Aunty Doris
5 Great Aunty Doris
6 My Goldfish
7 Uncle Herbert
8 Great Uncle Herbert's dog Cecil
9 Sean Perry (he fits in well with rest of the team)
10 Cheril from next door
11 Lynne (girl i used to know)
12 Raquel (another girl i used to know)
13 Shirley
14 Janet
15 Maggie from the chip shop.
i checked on availibility and all are 100% fit and raring to go....
allez le blanc.
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i was lucky enough to miss the game and only have to listen to it on the radio (before turning it off at risk of crashing the car with depression).
It looks like England need to start from scratch, I would retain the following players and start building a dynamic squad for 2011:
Sheridan, Stevens, Rees, Wilkinson, Barkley, Lewsey, Cueto, Tait
From outside the squad look at:
Cipriani, Simpson Daniels, Ben Foden and Magnus Lund.
It is indicative of English rugby at the moment that I can only think of 4 young players that could step up. (I haven't forgotten Strettle - but he just shakes his blonde hair side-steps 10 yards out and then kicks the ball away).
Noy sure where the rest of the players will come from though.
Bring Dean Richards in at Manager.
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Impressive Springbok display. Controlled and sustained. Could have ratcheted up the intensity though, but masteful control of energy.
England - comical.
Robinson - would like to buy you a beer, man. Much respect from this South African. You were a tiger. Thats how its supposed to go.
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We all agree that the ratings are too generous, with the exception of Robinson who i think had an awesome game, but he was on his own!
I also agree Perry should be drop-kicked, he was useless, he waited far too long before distributing the ball (perhaps he thought he was being paid by the hour as a plumber again!) and he usually wasted any opportunity he had when he did finally release!
But am i the only person who thinks Sackey is totally useless????????
I have watched him in three tests now (SA, France and SA RWC) and on all three occasions he looked like a lost little boy. He can't defend, he can't tackle, he's out of position, he runs away from oncoming men with the ball, he runs into defenders when he has the ball, he was skinned by a flanker and a scrum half on saturday when he is supposed to be able to run the 100 in under 11 secs, and he NEVER once broke the ball line, he can't pass, he seems to have virtually NO awareness of where everyone else is on the pitch, and on friday he was directly responsible for letting SA score two of their tries through his pathetic attmepts to tackle.
If you want someone fast on the wing Varndell would be a better option in my book, Sackey shouldn't even be in the squad let alone the starting line-up!
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1. Sheridan
2. Chuter
3. Stevens
4. Borthwick
5.
6. Moody
7. Rees
8.
9. Gomorsall
10. Wilkinson
11.
12. Barkley
13. Hipkiss
14.
15. Lewsey
Here is the spine of a team... Can anyone help me fill in the gaps? Are there any fit players with pace and bit of dynamism who can fill the vacant spaces? Is Tait capable of playing on the wing?
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At 12:41 PM on 16 Sep 2007, T Bone wrote:
FREE SPEECH !!!
Mr T writes "most of this negativity is nonsensical madness"... really? [...]
...........
T Bone, you misunderstand me a little! I'm not saying we shouldn't be disappointed or express that. Of course they were poor! All I'm saying is that the standard of performance can *hardly* have been unexpected. I wonder how constructive it is. Some of the younger players will be there again...surely!
The squad have performed as expected. As a team (maybe not as individuals), they do not have the quality or organisation to play much better than that!. Their record of away defeats before this tournament told us that.
Essentially, we lost this tournament before we boarded the plane because the squad or management didn't believe in what they were trying to do, or have a workable strategy to achieve it with the players available.
What is the point of drowning in sorrow when we *knew* this (not getting close to winning it again) was going to happen!?!
The scale of defeat on a world stage was embarrassing yes, and I do sympathise with the people who paid their money to watch (though wonder about their desire for self-harm!) but we simply have to go back to the drawing board and start again.
Out with the old, in with fresh legs and put this down to experience, use as you suggest, as a motivational tool to prove us all wrong even?!
We won't have to excuse of being world champions to fall back on at least...but we can come again! :)
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1. Sheridan
2. Chuter
3. Stevens
4. Borthwick
5.
6. Moody
7. Rees
8.
9. Gomorsall
10. Wilkinson
11.
12. Barkley
13. Hipkiss
14.
15. Lewsey
Here is the spine of a team... Can anyone help me fill in the gaps? Are there any fit players with pace and bit of dynamism who can fill the vacant spaces? Is Tait capable of playing on the wing?
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the english looked good, until they
kicked off.
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I,m glad to be living down under and as far away that rubbish they call rugby.
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