Ask us your rugby laws questions
- 25 Feb 07, 12:11 PM
After an exciting third round of Six Nations matches, my colleague Hugh Watkins and I are ready to answer your questions about the laws of the game.
Did you see something during the three matches that you didn't fully understand? If so, we are here to help.
As I am sure you will appreciate, we won't be able to comment on the rights and wrongs of individual decisions, so please ensure your question is about a general point of law rather than a personal comment.
That way you'll have a better chance of getting your question answered! We look forward to hearing from you.
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A long standing 'beef' of mine.
Why are players allowed to target players in a maul to push them away/ out of the maul when they don't have the ball.
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Why do referees call ruck when the ball is clearly held off the ground? If the ball is off the ground then it is still a maul or the player is holding the ball on the ground and not releasing -penalty subject to the players trying to take the ball are on their feet.
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I once remember reading that in the in-goal area there was no such thing as a forward pass (or perhaps a knock-on?) This sounds nonsense. Could I possibly be remembering wrongly some other fact about the in-goal area?
(My comments produced hilarity from my sons Geraint and Dafydd before the France game!)
Any enlightenment would be welcome
Bill
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Does the penalty for tackling a player whose feet are not on the ground extend to the case where that player is held up by his lifters? That seemed to be so in at least one line-out yesterday.
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So often while advantage is being played for a penalty the attacking side attempts a drop goal. If successful it's 3 points, if it misses, they go back for the place kick. Surely if there was an opportunity to score from a dropgoal then advantage was accrued.
Likewise if they cross the line but are held up or overruled by TMO, back they go for a penalty kick, despite getting the clear advantage of getting into a points scoring position.
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In the England Ireland game, England returned a kick from full back (it was either Moran or Strettle). He kicked the ball forawrd and then chased after it. An Ireland player caught it and ran it back. The English kicker passed all of his team mates but was sidestepped by the Irish player. One of the English players behind then made the tackle. The referee gave a penalty against him. I was under the impression that once the kicker had passed his team mates, he played them onside. I don't necessarily think it was given for offside and he did say something to do with 10 yards but I don't see why that was relevant here? What was the offence?
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When players are penalised for 'crossing' is the penalty given from where the players crossed or where the opposing defenders were at the time? Against England, Ireland were penalised for crossing which they did 4/5 yards inside their own half. Wilkinson chose to kick the resulting penalty but was forced to do so from the half way line rather than where the players crossed. The resultant penalty fell just short of the cross bar.
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Rolling Mauls??
One of the most boring aspects of today's rugby is the "rolling maul" which there seems no way to stop legally, as the defending team cannot access the ball carrier, and is not allowed to tackle the "blockers" in front. In yesterday's Six Nations there were several cases of phase 2 possession where two or three forwards stood off a ruck, and as the ball was popped to them they bound and drove forward in a wedge. Are refs going to let this "tractor and trailer" stuff ruin the game?
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There were a couple of times in the matches yesterday where players were being tackled just by the opposition grabbing their shirt and dragging them down. Is that allowed?
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When a quick tap penalty is taken, the opposing players cannot tackle until the penalty taker has travelled ten yards, or they concede a further penalty. What happens if the tap penalty is awarded within ten yards of the try line? Does the tap penalty taker have a clear unimpeded route to a score?
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why are players at line-outs allowed to change positions so often? it just looks a mess at moment with no clear gap once players start moving
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If the referee signals advantage to one team because of, for example, a knock on, and the opposing team then commits a penalty offence which could include cynical or dangerous play which prevents advantage being gained, why do referees call play back for the original decision rather than penalise the second offence? Doesn't seem very fair!
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Should Horgan be cited for his forearm hit to Strettles face? If so what is the procedure? Also I was confused by Grewcoks yellow yesterday, Stringer sold him a dummy but it didn't seem to warrent 10 min off the pitch.
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When an attacking player charges the ball down, using arms/hands,from an opponents kick, the referee never seems to give a 'knock on'.Is there a special rule for the ball going forward from a charge down?
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For Matt.... REgardles of what the kicker is doing, any player within 10 metres of where the ball is landing must withdraw 10 metres away. The England players didn't do this.
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Bill,
wrt a knock on or forward pass over the goal line, I also seem to remember being told that "you can't knock on over the goal line". I'm 68 years old and the memory must be from my school days.
John
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Rolling Mauls??
One of the most boring aspects of today's rugby is the "rolling maul" which there seems no way to stop legally, as the defending team cannot access the ball carrier, and is not allowed to tackle the "blockers" in front. In yesterday's Six Nations there were several cases of phase 2 possession where two or three forwards stood off a ruck, and as the ball was popped to them they bound and drove forward in a wedge. Are refs going to let this "tractor and trailer" stuff ruin the game?
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Offside at kicks ahead
For Will.... your 3.25 post to Matt. Rule 11 2 C says that the kicker, or any team mate who was behind the kicker, can by running upfield past offside teammates convert them into onside teammates. I believe that the England kicker ran up and contested the catch of the ball he had kicked, and that by so doing put all his teammates on side, and as a consequence there were no offside players to whom the 10 metre rule could apply. Like Matt I question the ref's decision. Although it must be tough to see all this in the heat of the moment that is what IRB refs are trained and paid for, and they have trained linesmen to help them.
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Sorry to butt in on what is the refs forum to answer, but people have already "thrown their hats in"
Post 18: Robin Lawson.
If a player is within 10 metres of where the ball will land when it is kicked it doesn't matter if a team mate runs past him. He has to retire (or at least attempt to) to 10 metres away. Nothing a team mate does can put him onside.
However, I would ask a further query on this point. The English players seemed to be attempting to retire (albeit half-heartedly as is often the way.) The ball was then passed from one Irish player to another. I understood that this puts the opposition players onside but they were still penalised.
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About the 10 metre rule, if they were not attempting to retire then they had all ready given away a penalty so Morgan running past them wouldn't change this. When the player made the tackle he was currently onside but had already given the penalty away and then prevented any advantage.
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Crikey - is it in the laws that the English can complain so much about one game ?!!!
Rolling Mauls - staple England fare for the last 20 years.
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I think that rolling mauls are a great feature of the game - and we need to re-work the TMO system to give the attacking team the benefit of the doubt.
Re: A quick tap penalty within 10 metres of the try line - the defending side only have to retire to their try line and can advance when the tap is taken.
I've got one question about the increasing use of players around the fringe of rucks to shield those behind - is this legal, because it is a constant phenomenon?
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Re Post 6. Truck and trailer occurs when a player leans onto a maul and uses them as a shield. He must be bound from shoulder to wrist to be part of the maul.
Standing off and binding up just forms another point of attack which becomes a maul when the opposition join on.
What hacks me off is this pushing people over at the fringes as a scrum half tries to pick up, players should either join the ruck by binding on or leave alone, it kills quality ball.
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Setting aside the first 5 mins as an abberation, it was a poor game of rugby by two toothless sides. The pattern of all the matches yesterday was predictable and (hate to say this as a lifeloong supporter) boring to watch. Defences are so well organised these days the sight of a gap opening up occurs just a couple of times in a game. Scotland have to use their loaf and plan out a different method of turning defences rather than endless phases ending up behind the gain line.
How many times did the backs receive the ball standing stil yesterday? And it wasn't just Scotland, France , Italy, Wales and England were guilty as well. the only nation to emerge from Super Saturday with any credibility on the world stage were Ireland, who played with more raw aggression than the other 5 teams put together.
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The otherwise excellent coverage of the 大象传媒 was marred for me by the thoughtless comment of Eddie Butler after "God Save The Queen" was heard in respectful silence at Croke Park.
You may remember his first words were "Well, what was all the fuss about?"
I think he meant to say (I hope he he meant to say)"What a relief that passed off peacefully".
Did he not know the background to this game? Did he not care? Let me enlighten him.
The reason there was concern was that innocent Irish people were murdered (including one player) by British thugs posing as militia.
That is why some people were upset and Mr Butler should have been more respectful, to say the least.
Congratulations to all concerned in staging this fixture at that venue - especially as they engineered the ideal result!!
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Hi All.
I'm very new to rugby so forgive my ignorance. Having watched Eng vs. Ire yesterday I was just wondering if rugby has any sort of retrospective disciplinary procedures similar to those found in soccer? (What I'm getting at is, will Shane Horgan be reprimanded in any way for that horrific forearm smash on young David Strettle?!)
Many thanks.
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An anomaly? An unsuccessful drop kick at goal that goes through the dead ball line is a drop out at the 22. A punt that crosses the dead ball line is a scrum back at the place of the punt. It would be better to use drop kicks in place of the punt to ensure the former restart to play?
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An Irish player kicked ahead and tried to recover the ball in a possible try-scoring situation. Andy Farrel dived in and clearly using one hand, pushed the ball into touch. Should this not have been a penalty and not a line out?
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I was under the impression that when a player is tackled (knees on the ground), he is to release the ball. At least twice during the Wales Vs France match, a French player who was isolated and tackled attempted to escape the tackle and tried to regain his feet (and gain valuable time). The ref's whistle was never blown for either incicent. My question is, when is a tackle deemed to be a tackle and the player has to release the ball before being penalised for a holding infringement
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During the Irish win at the weekend, Olly Morgan called a 'mark' from a high ball sent up by O'Gara. Whilst Morgan was still geeting up, Harry Ellis took the quick tap and was allowed to play. Is it not the player that calls the 'mark' that has to take it?
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If in a rolling maul the ball carrier had to be in front of his team mates, it would be a fairer contest. Why isn't the offside law applied? if a player bumps into a team mate in open play, it's offside.
Second question: Could a penalty or conversion be taken with a drop goal?
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Why do referees continue not to penalise scrum halfes when they continue to make a crooked feed at a scrum?
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Did anyone notice in the England/Ireland game how often after tackling an Engish player, the tackler was left lying at the back of the ruck, arms in the air in a veiled atempt to get out of the way. Thus making any sort of quick ball by the English scrum half almost impossible?
It reminds me of New Zealand's habits of old.
I am not inferring any Celtic bias but how many penalties were England granted?
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In cases when an attacking threequarters line are deemed to have "crossed" why is the defending side awarded a penalty and thus in many cases a scoring opportunity? Isn't it enough of a penalty for the attacking team to be stopped and the ball given to the defending side via a free kick or scrumage. It is preposperous that a defending side can be give a scoring opportunity from what is no more than accidental offside. This happened to Ireland on Saturday near the half way line and J Wilkinson took a pop at goal but thankfully he missed.
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Jeff,
It is to my knowledge allowable for a conversion to be taken by drop goal, if the referee allows it, and you take it within the direct line behind the touchdown. Penalty's I would think would be the same (as the choice is given for punting, scrum etc.) though I cant see a situation were it would be preferred over a spot kick.
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if the ball is on the ground in a ruck can players scoop it back with their hands, this appears to happen all in the itme but i thought it was illegal to handle the ball until it was out
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At the Italy Scotland match, as a spectator it appeared that there were a significant number of instances where Italian players required treatment on the ground. I understand that the clock is stopped for this period, however it took a lot of momentum out of the game. Whilst watching other games, other referees have insisted that the palyers leave the pitch, and kept the game going. What is the actual rule? Is there a fixed time that can be taken, if a player needs treatment on the pitch?
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Like Nick (post 13) I was confused by Grewcock's yellow. I guess the issue was that it was so close to the try line (the ref did seem to make some seemingly absurd comment about it being "dangerous"). The ruck law says a player should not "take any action while the ball is in the ruck to convey to the opponents that the ball is out of the ruck". Surely this must mean the scrum half is not allowed to dummy off the back of the ruck?
Having said this, I've seen this done a lot, and I've never seen it given - is this a rule going the way of crooked feeds to scrums, and also the number of forward passes that seem to be "overlooked" every game I watch - i.e. the refs just choose not to implement it?
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DID ANY ONE NOTICE THAT ONE OF THE FRENCH TRIES CAME AS A RESULT OF FRANCE TAKING 2 QUICK PENALTIES IN SUCCESSION. THE FIRST RESULTED IN WALES BEING PENALISED FOR NOT RETREATING 10 METRES, AND THE SECOND, WHICH SHOULD HAVE RESULTED IN PLAY STOPPING AND THE WELSH PLAYERS BEING ALLOWED TO RETIRE 10 METRES, LED TO THE TRY. MORE CONSISTENCY REQUIRED FORM THE REFS ON QUICK PENELTY OPPORTUNITIES
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Sometimes, as the ball emerges from a ruck, an opposing player will lean over the ruck and scrag the scrummie. Some refs seem to let it go, others shout "leave the halfback" and penalise the offender (Grewcock, usually). What's the law on this?
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Hi there,
During the Fra vs Wales game Alex Popham scored a great try where he dived for the line; he looked to have stopped (ie no momentum) before he then reached for the line with an outstretched arm. I thought that this was double movement - I know the ball did not hit the turf...can anyone help?
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When a tackle is made and the player tackled has released the ball, when can the tackler play the ball?
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I was recently asked whether you could possibly score by throwing the ball over the post as opposed to kicking it. I think not, am i right?
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Yellow Card offences:
I thought Grewcock getting sin-binned for charging Stringer in the Eng v Ire game was a little unfair. Grewcock, defending on his own line, was simply sold a dummy and if the attack give a dummy they (and the ref) must accept players might genuinely fall for them (that's the purpose of them after all). So if Grewcock's foul was an unintentional foul is a yellow card too harsh?
I'm not, as an England fan, making excuses for the loss as conversely I thought Lund was lucky to not get binned for tackling someone in the air.
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As a former referee myself (from long, long ago), I recall advice from a distinguished Welsh referee, Gwyn Walters, about refereeing the set scrum."Watch the scrum-half," he advised, "Leave the front rows to sort themselves out for the first two or three scrums. After that, you麓ll soon see who is trying to compensate for his inadequacies." The IRB has been emphatic in requiring referees to ensure that scrum-halves put the ball in straight yet, in at least one of the matches on Saturday, this was never done. Can you explain why referees today seem to have a blind spot on this issue?
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Hope you don't mind as this is something that occured in a recent premiership game not a 6N game.
If the ref has clearly signalled a try is it right that he can go back to the TMO and eventually over rule his own decision.
Tony Spreadbury did this recently in the recent Wasps v Sale game. As I was at the game I don't know why he changed his mind but would have thought once the try was given that should be it, or is this some type of appeal process?
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At a good high kick off. The attacking lock is lifted to receive the ball. Often other players over run the offside line (through the ball) and wait in an offside position, for a tap back. Is this within the laws? To me they are intentionally offside and not retiring.
I think that the grewcock sin bin was a mistake and 'rectified' by the ref by not sending off Magnus Lund.
A well refereed game considering the ferocity of the action, he was lucky not to get swept up into one or two rucks/mauls.
O'Connell was outstanding and deserved to drive the side into a winning position.
The reverse pass at the end by Perry deserved what it got. How many chip kicks or through grubbers did England play, none. I guess they don't practice them, then resort to this non-sense.
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Mike Druce:
Mike, I think that this practice of pretending to be trying not to interfere while still interfering by lying on the opposition side of the ruck is appalling. Unfortunately, this is a feature of the modern game, and I'm sorry to say, England are expert at it. All of our teams are now aping the Kiwis in this kind of cheating.
Other obvious cheats around the ruck are:
Anyone who is ahead of the back foot in the ruck is offside unless they are bound into the ruck. Binding is defined in the laws as one arm from the wrist to shoulder. It is therefore impossible to be in a ruck, ahead of the back foot, with just a hand on a player in the ruck. A player in such a position is offside, and deliberately so. The correct punishment for a professional foul is a RED card, and no discretion is given to the referee in the laws in relation to professional fouls on a rugby field.
Anyone who finds themselves ahead of the back foot while a ruck (or maul for that matter), is in progress must immediately retire. Tardiness in retiring is an infringement that should lead to the award of a penalty.
"Clearing out the ruck" doesn't exist within the laws of rugby. Therefore, anyone who has not entered and bound into the ruck correctly, who is in contact with an opposition player ahead of the back foot is offside, and furthermore is deliberately obstructing play. In this case, the ref would judge whether or not it was deliberate or an accidental occurrence during the fog of play. If the former, a red card should be shown. If the latter, a penalty. The yellow card should not be shown, because if it was accidental, then the player should not really be binned. If deliberate, it is a professional foul, and there is no discretion given to referees if they deem an act to be a professional foul - a red card has to be shown.
The standard of refereeing around rucks is chronically bad. Not only does it prevent the correct flow of the game by tolerating obstruction and the slowing of the ball, but it also increases the chances of serious injury in the ruck or maul.
The IRB has issued formal responses on all of the above issues, and they are publically available on the IRB site. I would have thought that referees would make it their business to read such important statements on the actual interpretation of the laws of rugby.
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The standard of refereeing today sorely limps way behind the standard of play. This is nowhere more obvious than in the application of the offside rule at the ruck.
Any player who has not correctly entered the ruck is offside.
To correctly enter the ruck, one must come from behind the ruck, and behind the hindmost foot of the hind-most team-mate in the ruck.
On entering, one must immediately bind correctly into the ruck. To bind correctly means to have at least one full arm, from wrist to shoulder attached to the ruck.
Anyone ahead of the hindmost foot except in these circumstances is offside. Anyone who is legitimately bound into the ruck, but who has progressed beyond the ball-line in the ruck is offside, and must immediately and rapidly retire.
All players know these rules, but they study their referees to assess whether or not the ref applies these rules correctly. Unless the ref intervenes early to penalise such cheating, then the players will continnue to do so. However, where there is serious potential to either score or concede a try, you can plainly see that players can, when they want to, play by the rules.
It is therefore quite clear that infringement of the offside rules at the ruck are more often that not, deliberate. Deliberate fouls are otherwhise known as professional fouls. This leads me to my second gripe about referees, their failure to apply to rule regarding professional fouls.
Although this law has changed in recent years to give referees discretion as to whether to give a red or yellow card at the first infringment, the referee has no such discretion in subsequent infringements of the same nature by the same player subsequent to an admonition or caution. Such a player must be sent off. [10.3 (a)] and [10.5 (b)]
If a team repeats an infringement after a player has been suspended (sin-binned), the referee must send off the next player to repeat the infringement. [10.3 (b)]. No choice is given to the referee in this matter. Infringement is a matter of fact, and intention has nothing to do with it at senior and representative matches.
I can't remember the last time I saw a red-card employed by a referee at international level. Until referees find their cojones as start applying the rules, the ruck and for that matter the scrum will remain beyond the control of the referee to the detriment of the game overall.
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The standard of refereeing today sorely limps way behind the standard of play. This is nowhere more obvious than in the application of the offside rule at the ruck.
Any player who has not correctly entered the ruck is offside.
To correctly enter the ruck, one must come from behind the ruck, and behind the hindmost foot of the hind-most team-mate in the ruck.
On entering, one must immediately bind correctly into the ruck. To bind correctly means to have at least one full arm, from wrist to shoulder attached to the ruck.
Anyone ahead of the hindmost foot except in these circumstances is offside, and is a loiterer, unless they immediately and rapidly retire without obstructing the opposition. Anyone who is legitimately bound into the ruck, but who has progressed beyond the ball-line in the ruck is offside, and must immediately and rapidly retire.
All players know these rules, but they study their referees to assess whether or not the ref applies these rules correctly. Unless the ref intervenes early to penalise such cheating, then the players will continnue to do cheat. However, where there is serious potential to either score or concede a try, you can plainly see that players can, when they want to, play by the rules.
It is therefore quite clear that infringement of the offside rules at the ruck are more often that not, deliberate. Deliberate fouls are otherwhise known as professional fouls. This leads me to my second gripe about referees, their failure to apply to rule regarding professional fouls.
Although this law has changed in recent years to give referees discretion as to whether to give a red or yellow card at the first infringment, the referee has no such discretion in subsequent infringements of the same nature by the same player subsequent to an admonition or caution. Such a player must be sent off. [10.3 (a)] and [10.5 (b)]
If a team repeats an infringement after a player has been suspended (sin-binned), the referee must send off the next player to repeat the infringement. [10.3 (b)]. No choice is given to the referee in this matter. Infringement is a matter of fact, and intention has nothing to do with it at senior and representative matches.
I can't remember the last time I saw a red-card employed by a referee at international level. Until referees find their cojones as start applying the rules, the ruck and for that matter the scrum will remain beyond the control of the referee to the detriment of the game overall.
Bring back the red cards that's what I say. I also think that refs should not concern themselves about the quality of the game from the audience's perspective. Instead, he or she is there to protect and apply the laws of the sport. When Laws are unenforced, they are ignored, and become very difficult to resurrent. We must enforce the rules for the benefit of the game. Most teams are willing to accept 10 minutes loss of a player as a fair exchange for conceding 10 minutes in the bin. Teams have to feel the pressure of the red card. No doubt Grewcock wouldn't have put a foot wrong had he felt that the red card was a possibility.
So, come on refs, tell us what your position is regarding offside at rucks and mauls, and red cards in general?
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I have heard that a defending player cannot jump for the ball in the in-goal area when someone kicks forward on the attacking side. For example, for Shane Horgan's try in Croke Park against England. Is the only option for the defender to either wrap the player up and prevent him grounding or pushing him off the field?
Can somebody clear this up for me? I have looked up the 2007 IRB rulebook but couldn't find a rule that said such so I'm assuming it doesn't exist and the defender can jump/compete for the ball in the air. Thanks.
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Please ignore my first post. It was posted inadvertently when I went off to recheck the laws, at which point I discovered that the laws had changed to give the refs more discretion regarding red cards and professional fouls (deliberate fouls).
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I have heard that a defending player cannot jump for the ball in the in-goal area when someone kicks forward on the attacking side. For example, for Shane Horgan's try in Croke Park against England. Is the only option for the defender to either wrap the player up and prevent him grounding or pushing him off the field?
Can somebody clear this up for me? I have looked up the 2007 IRB rulebook but couldn't find a rule that said such so I'm assuming it doesn't exist and the defender can jump/compete for the ball in the air. Thanks.
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If a player dummys a throw from the back of a maul and is charged by a defender, from an on side position, who simply fell for the dummy is the defender exempt from the charge of slowing play down (and thus say a yellow card)? I鈥檇 say that technically it is the attack who have chosen to slow play down in the first instance by electing to dummy, and a dummy is done to deceive, so are refs should be sympathetic to that?
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During the England-Ireland game there was a knock-on by the attacking side that bounced into the in-goal area and touched down.
The referee gave a 5m scrum (defenders put in) but could the defending side have asked for a drop out instead, essentially using the advantage rule to ignore the knock-on?
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Before the 6N games kicked off on Saturday I was watching the Leicester - Northampton game on another channell. At one stage I had to leave the room as I was getting more and more angry at dreadful refeeing of the ruck area.
The one thing that annoys me the most in the game is professional fouls at ruck time not being tackled by refreees.
At virtually every televised game you'll see several times during the game players in an offisde position at the ruck not retreating and wrestling with an opposition player to prevent them contesting the ruck or if their team is in possesion acting as a blocker for the scrum-half or player passing or breaking from the ruck.
This has to be tightened down on to improve the flow of the game and to allow fair comeptition at the breakdown, if the law states that a player not actually in the ruck [b] has to retreat behind the hindmost foot[/b] then that is what should be applied. If the refereee is actually focused on the actual breakdown then the touch-judges should report the offender.
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Could someone please tell me when the "double movement" law regarding tries was scrapped? As far as I was aware if you are tackled just before the line and ground the ball you are not then allowed to lift the ball and place it over the try line. It was known as a double movement. I am obviously aware of the momentum try but I thought Alix Popham's try at the weekend was certainly a double movement.
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When does someone answer all of these questions?
About 20 of them are great questions but without an answer whats the point!
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In the Scotland - Ireland game this weekend, the ref called full time on a penalty. I thought that wasn't allowed. Could someone explain this to me? I'm not complaining, but just want a clarification. It seems pretty important considering the score and the fact it was (almost) kickable.
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If a player who is out of his 22 kicks the ball straight out BACKWARDS where is the line-out taken from, the kickers position or where the ball lands.
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If a player who is out of his 22 kicks the ball straight out BACKWARDS where is the line-out taken from, the kickers position or where the ball lands.
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Hi all, I'm new to rugby but can't get to grips with some of the rules. Rule books don't help! When can a defending player pick up the ball? For example, I know the defenders can see the ball on the ground when there is a ruck but don't go for it. Has it something to do with the position of the ball in the ruck? Please help...just getting into rugby but still a bit lost...aaargh!
Sam =)
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