Club v country rant
- 14 Feb 07, 05:23 PM
Here's an analogy for you.
It's the football World Cup finals, Brazil have negotiated a tough group stage and are looking forward to the next round, when, all of a sudden, the English Premiership clubs demand the return of their Brazilian players for some league matches that weekend.
Can you imagine it? No, quite frankly, because it would never ever happen.
Yet, in the free week of the Six Nations, three Scottish players have been refused permission to train with the rest of the national squad! How has been allowed to happen?
Of course, you can't really blame the clubs - they do pay the players' wages after all, and it doesn't do them any good to have international stars languishing in treatment rooms.
The problem is really with the scheduling. Why are there Premiership games on while the Six Nations are on? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
The Six Nations is the key tournament for rugby union - it's the one time in the calendar, rightly or wrongly, when the oval ball game grabs the attention of the entire nation and surely, while that nation is captive everyone involved in rugby should be working together to maximise the appeal of the sport.
Surely it's through the exposure of seeing the big stars in international matches that kids become enthused by the sport and then take an interest in club rugby - I certainly can't see it being the other way round.
My south-of-the-border fellow blogger Rob Hodgetts, today makes the case for the Six Nations to be played without a break (and with no Sunday games so he can enjoy more beer..!)
But I'd go even further - a bit of common sense over the fixture list should prevail and let the Six Nations occupy a privileged set of dates in the calendar in much the same way that football has set dates for international matches.
Wales 27-18 England
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Finally some common sense. I totally agree that Premiership games should not happen during the 6 Nations. It's not fair on the Countries or the Clubs. Fancy a job with the RFU Mr. Miller?
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The English clubs are hampering Scotland`s chance in the six nations. Leicester`s English contingent are not playing premiership rugby this weekend, but Jim Hamilton will be, the English clubs are the big problem in Europe.
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Does the England coach get access to the English players this week? No he doesn't, so why should the Scots get access to players that have chosen to play in England and have their wages paid for by the English clubs?
Let us not forget that it is the Celtic Unions that have opposed running the 6N in a single block.
If the English clubs had the appropriate control of the HC they would be able to negociate a better financial deal for all involved and be able to drop the Anglo Welsh competition. That would free up the required weekends to not have to play GP matches during the 6N.
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As a Gloucester fan I have a certain interest in this, as you can imagine.
If Premiership sides give England players better treatment it's not because they're English, but because there's a deal in place with the RFU to assure that. There's nothing to stop the SRU making whatever arrangements they wish with PRL for player release.
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I think the country should get involved, so Hearts aren't playing on the same day as a game at Murrayfield. Then, the people who were left behind at many train stations due to overcrowding, might have got there on time!
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"England are not hampering Scotland's chances" - biased comment ... Tait, Flood, Farrell, Lund have been recalled by their English clubs to play this week-end, so read the papers properly before commenting.
Havind said that we're a right bunch of idiots ... the RFU made £1.2m net profit on 2005 (after paying clubs c. £19m). So why not central contracts ... if the clubs are paying for international players, then they have every right to recall them - nothing will change.
Other option is southern hemisphere way: league, then cup, then internationals ... less conflict.
But would do both central contracts and change timing of competitions.
Will it happen? Seem to remember someone famous descirbing the RFU as a 'bunch of old farts' ... so probably not.
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graham is blaming the celtic nations as we dont need change, our league works unlike the premiership. the english clubs hav far too much power as it is and should be reigned in and the format of the premiership changed to prevent the player burnout and allow for a more cohesive season. maybe the 6 nations could be moved to the end of the season but unless the premiership changes its format then it will still be running at the same time. players need the summer to rest
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The 6 Nations should be played over a blanket weekend of 5 at the beginning of a calendar year.
The Premiership, Magners League, and French League seasons should be just 10 teams playing home and away with top team winning league, 2nd - 5th in Heineken Cup 6-9 in Challenge Cup and 10th place relegated.
Heineken Cup 6 leagues of 4 with top 2 qualifying and knockout through to final.
The domestic and European season should run in tandem from October until May with a break for Christmas and the 6 nations. This would leave plenty of time for players to rest and be refreshed for the beginning and end of domestic rugby as well as the 6 nations.
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I have not read all the comments but the original is absolutely spot on and something I have said. I love my country team and I love my club team. In the current scenario, everyone loses. If the problem is, that with the 6N they would play too much rugby, get rid of some of the other games. Football struggles to support 2 cups, and they can play midweek.
Simple, Get rid of the EDF cup, possibly change the prem to 11 teams and then you could schedule the 6N for a Premiership closed period.
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Perhaps if the RFU removed the salary cap from clubs, then they would be able to have a larger pool of players and be able to fulfil their fixtures and not have to rely upon their international players, especially if the clubs werte recognized as the breeding ground for top players, not just in england but throughout the whole of europe.
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Headling:
English stop Scots from training
Reality:
Employer asks Employees to trun up for work.
I am not aware of any commercial terms between the clubs and the SRU so why should they let them leave.
The clubs can't work out their issues with one union, don't ask them to battle with another five.
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Headline:
English stop Scots from training
Reality:
Employer asks Employees to trun up for work.
I am not aware of any commercial terms between the clubs and the SRU so why should they let them leave.
The clubs can't work out their issues with one union, don't ask them to battle with another five.
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For those who think the 6 Nations should be held over 5 consecutive weekends - perhaps you should try playing 5 rugby matches in 5 weeks at test match intensity. I suspect if you did you'd appreciate the break.
Should all sub-international games stop while the 6 nations is on? No way! Those playing the full 6 nations will need a rest, however what about players coming back from injury or not involved in international rugby? To give examples, I suspect players like Matt Stevens and Andy Sheridan will be glad they have an opportunity to prove they are back to 100% and perhaps earn selection for the latter stages of the 6 nations.
The clubs should respect the players needs and welfare whether it's during the 6 nations or not - if they need a rest they should get it. Likewise some may prefer to play more games and keep themselves in the right frame of mind, so it should be judged player by player.
Hadden should quit whinging - I'm sure the clubs would be happy to release the players for the additional week if they were offered the right financial compensation for losing them. If not, why should they give up a player (whose wages they are paying) for free?
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Look comparing this to the English Premiership calling up Brazilian players is futile as it is an irrelevant point. The football World Cup never coincides with national leagues as it is over the summer! The same would apply to the rugby World Cup as the Guinness Premiership clubs will be without their Scottish players for its duration.
If Scottish players choose to play in England then they have to play by the rules of the league they play in - if they want the extra weeks break than I suggest they go and join one of the Scottish regions!
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What is with the whole not letting Sean Lamont, Rory Lawson and others not train with Scotland it makes no sense !! Anyone agree?
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Dear Stevie and people
It is not the RFU that schedules these matches during the 6 nations it is Premier Rugby. They do it because of the money it raises and so that club rugby has a 'profile' during this 7 week period. The fans will turn up in any case irrespective of who is playing for their club (same goes for the autumn internationals). So fans, stop moaning that your players are away it is your clubs that want to play and stop blaming the RFU or IRB or anyone else. The total decision to do this rests in the hands of the English clubs.
So Stevie, you can blame the clubs as it is their decision.... And as for moving the 6 nations or other things, if only it were that simple. Any movement of dates, times, shedules etc requires agreement by all. TV money drives all the decisions. Have you ever tried to get the French to agree anything - oh yeh, and then they change their mind in the meeting....
Happy days...
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I'm getting fed up with this lets blame the clubs bandwagon.
What is being forgotten in all this is the fans.
How about limiting the debate so that the only people who can comment are those who have actually paid to watch both a club game and an international in the last year, then we will get a balanced debate rather than the "I know best because I've seen the odd game on TV, or I only go to international games mentallity"
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dont be ridiculous. the 6 nations goes over 7 weeks as it is, with that in mind how could you postpone the premiership, it would make the season even longer whilst also not allowing potential youngsters the chance to fill the boots of seasoned internationals. what would these guys do for 7 weeks train and lose all there match fitness. with the seaon alreayd being long enough why make it even longer, play through the 6 nations, allow the international players to stay with the national squad and use the time to develop and bring through yougsters how else od we expect to compete with new zealand ????
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Couldn't agree. I think its a disgrace that the (three?) players in question are no being allowed to train with the international squad. Being Irish I thank my lucky stars that we have the system in place whereby EOS calls the shots on who does what at the weekend. Having our clubs in action however is giving EOS the option of letting some guys (Boss for example) get more match time....so it is perhaps good to have that option, but fundamentally we could do without any matches being played this weekend. If I was a certain Mr Hadden I'd be pretty annoyed with those three english clubs...its not on in my opinion, although as you say they pay the wages etc etc and so the only feasible option is to play no matches this weekend. Good call mate
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I see the solution as being, the countries can specify say 25 players that are going to make up their squads for the six nations, and the country then has control of everything they do throughout the tournament. The players don't return to their clubs at all for any reason, the squads get the players they want, and the clubs know in advance they will be without some players.
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the solution to this is simple and would suit all the countries (provided the French are prepared to move their end of seasson chmapionship finale).
schedule the league season and Eurpoean game qualifiers from Serptember to early March. Follow that by the quarter finals through to the Finals of the Eurpoean competion immediately thereafter and then the six nations games in the final 5 weeks of the season.
Oh and by the way! get rid of the 3 end of season games which are desribed as the Premiership Play-offs as no-one likes them anyway!
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All rugby players should be centrally contracted to their countries rugby football unions, rather like we see in some of the home nations already. Then we won't have this trouble and strife of club versus country. 'COUNTRY FIRST, Club second' should be the natural rule and English Premier clubs shouldn't argue otherwise! Yes- I'm with the Scots on this one!
Having centrally contracted players did wonders for the English cricket team and not having centrally contracted players has helped lead to the demise of the England rugby team since the World Cup. Come on, the Irish hardly need an advantage at the moment so lets not give them one!
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Here I am, an ex-pat POM, avid England rugby supporter, living in the home of the ACT Brumbies. The Ozzies here are loving the bickering of the England club v country 'cos they know it torpedoes England's chances of retaining the World Cup.
I couldn't agree more with the comments about separating the club and 6 nations’ fixtures. Here the Super 14s are followed by Tri-nations then the other Internationals - this year the RWC. The Kiwis are resting their All Blacks during the S14s. The Welsh seem to have embraced the 'Franchise' idea and I contend it is the only way to go in England. Come on guys - wake up and smell the coffee!!
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"I am not aware of any commercial terms between the clubs and the SRU so why should they let them leave."
No there is no commercial contract, but there is the rule book. Article 9 IRB rules states that clubs must release players to their respective nations.
So if you're going to play, lets play by the rules, eh?
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I recently did some sums and worked out that a successful premiership club can play about 40 games in a season. Compare this to the amount of games played by a S14 team and we wonder why English players become injury prone and burnt out!! No chance at the world cup at this rate!
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Its the fixture list stupid!
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Post 24 - If that rule applied then why haven't they been imposed by Scotland through the IRB? I would suspect that the rule applies for international release only when in the week of an international match or during the World Cup and not in a training week.
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The SWelsh, Irish and (I think) Scots have got it right, but in different ways. Ireland have their centrally contracted players, while Wales and (again, I think) Scotland have respective agreements between the union and clubs.
With the "rest" weekend of the six nations coming up Gareth Jenkins has had full control over who plays and who does not. Players who he feels need a game to get back from injury get the chance. If a club is desperate for someone they can ask and may receive. Even before the Six Nations started when Jenkins was struggling for a full back he was able to ask Lyn Jones to play Henson aty full back for a game, and he did with no complaints.
That's a whole rugby country working for the national team, the pinnacle of the rugby game. While we're (in)famous for our petty politics and squabbling, at least thats one thing we have totally right.
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The reason why the Scottish team has an agreement with the (Scottish) clubs involved is because the SRU owns two of the pro clubs. I think with the Edinburgh franchise there will be a clause in the agreement that basically demands the same access than when the SRU owned Edinburgh.
Interesting to see that Lamont is starting for Northampton this week, hope he lasts cause the man was v good last week. Hamilton is a replacement for Leicester this weekend also v good against the Welsh.
I don't have a problem with the English based players going back to their clubs for the weekend's matches (as so many of Englands squad have - looks like your strategy didn't work Mr Ashton), my problem was not letting them train - why not?
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