Wales revels in defeat
- 5 Feb 07, 03:43 PM
Cardiff - Considering Wales鈥 early February dreams of Triple Crowns and Grand Slams had been shattered after the , there was a remarkably positive feeling reverberating around the streets of Cardiff on Sunday night.
Now there鈥檚 no doubt that the liberal amounts of alcohol doled out on St Mary鈥檚 Street had a major influence on that.
But, inebriation aside, I think that the lightness of Welsh spirits can be attributed to three specific factors.
1. It was Ireland who beat us
Now I don鈥檛 really buy into this 鈥楥eltic brotherhood鈥 theory.
It certainly doesn鈥檛 apply to the players - some of the have been pretty bitter in recent years, and the amount of on Sunday was impressive.
But if we have to lose to someone, Ireland鈥檚 not so bad. We understand where they鈥檙e coming from.
Both countries have proud sporting heritages, but we鈥檝e also been humiliated so many times in so many sports that the Welsh don鈥檛 begrudge Eddie O鈥橲ullivan鈥檚 men their dreams of a Grand Slam and the momentous games at Croke Park to come.
Most comments from Welsh fans to their Irish counterparts concerned .
But most conversations ended with 鈥淥k, you beat us 鈥 now make sure you do the same to England!鈥
2. Wales鈥 performance
There had been serious concerns going into the game after Gareth Jenkins鈥 team selection.
A bulked-up pack and a depleted back division lacking flair suggested a limited game plan that would look to grind out success.
But, from the outset, Wales looked to play the expansive style that took them to glory in 2005 and that represents their only realistic chance of competing with the best.
Ireland came to Cardiff as Championship favourites and the second-best team in the world.
But for long periods of the game Wales were on top, Alun Wyn Jones leading a powerful forward effort and Dwayne Peel injecting the impetus that had the men in green reeling.
They hung on by playing to the limits of the law on the floor, exploiting Kelvin Deaker鈥檚 laissez faire approach to the ruck and apparent allergy to the yellow card.
That just confirmed Ireland鈥檚 strength and the street-wise ability to grind out wins from unpromising situations.
But Wales鈥 young side will only learn from the experience.
3. The fixture list
The Grand Slam is gone, so is the Triple Crown, and three successive away games to come would seem to leave hopes of a Championship a distant dream.
But, whatever happens, will be alive to the end as the game that really counts is the final one, England.
On Sunday night, Welsh supporters could be heard happily belting out 鈥淭he Fields of Athenry鈥 throughout the city centre.
But if Wilko & co leave the Millennium Stadium with a win on 17 March, don鈥檛 expect to hear sounding from many Cardiff hostelries.
Wales 27-18 England
Comments Post your comment
Mr Davis
How very sad your article is.
why so anti english still.
Grow up man, its the 21st Century.
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Could we please have commentators who are unbiased.Having Brian Moore commentate on an England game is bad enough,but when we have to listen to Jonathan Davies screaming encouragement to Wales and complaining about the injustices of refereeing decisions against "his" team,I think it is time for neutral commentators to give us a more even handed appraisal of what is happening on the field.
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In other words...
Wales play exciting sexy blah blah blah rugby...
Yet don't score any tries.
And lose playing this sexy rugby. Again.
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Oh and more typical boring Welsh anti-Englishness, what a surprise.
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Like the author, I don't buy into the 'Celtic Brotherhood' nonsense either. The last time we lost to Wales was in 2005 and on that occasion most Irish fans felt that Wales deserved the grand slam not because they were fellow celts but because they played by far the most attractive rugby, and its good to see that rewarded.
The Welsh fans, like ourselves, are fantastic hosts and the craic surrounding the fixture home or away is always brilliant. Also (at least since the 70s receded into history) the Welsh don't have anything like the arrogance of the French or the English. When England lose a string of games I almost find nyself feeling sorry for them... then when they win I realise why I wanted them to lose in the first place!
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Like the author, I don't buy into the 'Celtic Brotherhood' nonsense either. The last time we lost to Wales was in 2005 and on that occasion most Irish fans felt that Wales deserved the grand slam not because they were fellow celts but because they played by far the most attractive rugby, and its good to see that rewarded.
The Welsh fans, like ourselves, are fantastic hosts and the craic surrounding the fixture home or away is always brilliant. Also (at least since the 70s receded into history) the Welsh don't have anything like the arrogance of the French or the English. When England lose a string of games I almost find nyself feeling sorry for them... then when they win I realise why I wanted them to lose in the first place!
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It's better to play well and lose, especially to a quality team like Ireland than it is to play ugly rugby and beat average teams like Scotland week in week out.
You shouldn't see beating England as the be all and end all of a good season either. There's more to life than just one result.
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In the words of Kelly Jones from the Stereophonics "As long as we beat the English, we dont care!"
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I agree; with all the fear at Jenkins leaning towards a more physical, slower game and after the AI's, I was more than pleasantly suprised on sunday. It was alot more like the wales that won the Grand Slam. The huge difference between then and now, and between Ireland and Wales on the day was maturity in the backs and solidarity. The Ireland backs have been playing together for yonks, and this was totally new for wales, and young. What we need to do now is keep this set up so they can begin to gel. I don't think Robinson had a great game but take that as you will. Oh and replace Luscombe with Brew. Ireland saw he was a threat instantly, so we didn't get to see much from him. He could be very exciting though.
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I too was reasonably upbeat after the game and we performed better than i expected.
A definate lack of pace and experienced was evident though on in the backline (with the exception of k. morgan)
Lets hope williams, jones and shanklin are fit for the rest of the championship to give us the quality we need against England and France.
I thought Aled Brew made a decent showing after he came on even though he spilled a high ball into touch
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And England play like its 2003..all forward play and johnny bore the pants off us kicking all Englands points.
Give me running rugby any day.
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I thought Stephen Jones had a shocking game, he didn't make touch, he missed tackles, played a part in the first Ireland try and that is our Captain. James Hook should start as outside half. Jones should be dropped Captain or not.
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I'd rather see Wales exciting rugby and lose than playing boring rugby and win. As far as I'm concerned the result of the game and the championship is immaterial as long as I'm entertained by the matches.
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To be honest I see nothing for Welsh supporters to be happy about.
Ireland were there for the taking by Wales yesterday, particularly with the first half performance they put in. I bet Ireland feel like they got out of jail free.
Worringly, for England and France, Ireland showed they can pull the result out of the bag even when things don't seem to be going their way, that is the sign of a team with genuine abilty AND belief. You can bet that Ireland are placing equal importance on every game thay play, despite the additional significance of the games at Croke Park.
If Wales had managed to generate the same level of motivation that they will no doubt show when playing England, well perhaps they may have won.
If you had inserted the word "only" between "the" and "game" then your comments would sum up Wales problem perfectly:
"But, whatever happens, Wales鈥 campaign will be alive to the end as the game that really counts is the final one, England."
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lets be fair, Wales played well, infact fantastically, the rish defence was just too good in their own 22. Ireland fully deserve the win but mabye ways deserve a try?
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Too right we Welsh understand where the Irish are coming from - in from the side and over the top usually!
I think you overestimate the Celtic camaraderie too, France had better win next weekend or some of us will be facing up to the unthinkable when England turn up at Croke Park.
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The win on Sunday was hugely important for everyone in Ireland. To go to Croke Park with intact dreams is the ONLY way to go to Croke Park.
I only hope that the French are not given the same chances as the Welsh were. Not even Easterbuys "guile" could stop them if that's the case. Jauzion & Co showed that they can convert their chances against Italy. Let's hope that Ireland pose a more impassable problem to them.
Good luck to Wales in their remaining games. As long as Henson is not playing I'll cheer for ye...except against Scotland. They've had a crappier time than anyone the last few years. At least the Italians don't expect anything from their rugby team.
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As I said on Irish Blog - What a game great to watch
Why do people want to analyze it to death the Ref in my opinion helped to serve up a fabulous game of rugby by NOT dishing out yellow cards and the players in the main accepted his decisions and got on with it - well done.
Wales were depleted and put up a stout performance at home with pride in thier shirts as you would expect them to and congratulate them for it.
Lets hope we get as good a match in future fixtures in this great championship
Do people really want the boring dross that the tri nations has become where basically New Zealand win everything and the other two will almost certainly win at home and lose away when playing each other?
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Hey DK, do you remember Ireland's last Grand Slam? Thought not!
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I have been to Cardiff and South Wales to watch Ireland and Ulster on many occasions, great fans who love rugby!
Rugby is the National sport in Ireland and Wales, almost in a majority, so why should it come as a shock that these two sets of fans respect each other.
I have also been to Twickenham often, where the arrogance is suffocating and brings out the worst in the opposition fans. From this you breed a camaradarie between all of the Irish, Welsh, Scots, French, Italian, Australian, New Zealand South African... you get the idea.
I love anyone beating England, I absolutely love it. I was devastated when England sacked Robinson, I was looking forward to Samoa and USA fighting for the second spot in Pool 'A' in the World Cup behind South Africa.
Here's to the Welsh on March 17th, may they have a great St Patrick's Day.
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I have been to Cardiff and South Wales to watch Ireland and Ulster on many occasions, great fans who love rugby!
Rugby is the National sport in Ireland and Wales, almost in a majority, so why should it come as a shock that these two sets of fans respect each other.
I have also been to Twickenham often, where the arrogance is suffocating and brings out the worst in the opposition fans. From this you breed a camaradarie between all of the Irish, Welsh, Scots, French, Italian, Australian, New Zealand South African... you get the idea.
I love anyone beating England, I absolutely love it. I was devastated when England sacked Robinson, I was looking forward to Samoa and USA fighting for the second spot in Pool 'A' in the World Cup behind South Africa.
Here's to the Welsh on March 17th, may they have a great St Patrick's Day.
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Conor:
The Welsh can't be arrogant?
You must have been asleep in 2005 then.
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I have been to Cardiff and South Wales to watch Ireland and Ulster on many occasions, great fans who love rugby!
Rugby is the National sport in Ireland and Wales, almost in a majority, so why should it come as a shock that these two sets of fans respect each other.
I have also been to Twickenham often, where the arrogance is suffocating and brings out the worst in the opposition fans. From this you breed a camaradarie between all of the Irish, Welsh, Scots, French, Italian, Australian, New Zealand South African... you get the idea.
I love anyone beating England, I absolutely love it. I was devastated when England sacked Robinson, I was looking forward to Samoa and USA fighting for the second spot in Pool 'A' in the World Cup behind South Africa.
Here's to the Welsh on March 17th, may they have a great St Patrick's Day.
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Ireland, Well done. There, I've said it. On the day the team scored 3 trys to nil so as a fan of Welsh rugby I have no grounds to complain.
However the reason why the Welsh can revel in defeat is 1. The first Irish try was full of 'The Luck o' the Irish'. How many charge-downs really do result in a try? 2. The Welsh team were robbed of a try; tackling a playing without the ball is a penaly and when that player is a a real try scoring position then a penalty-try should have been awarded. Also how many chances were the Irish given when they were blatently flouting the rules.
The scoreline stands and good luck to Ireland, any team winning the Grand Slam is always good to see but with Wales nearly back to full strength, well, second place is looking like a real possibility.
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Is there a second article that I'm not able to read here? I don't see any 'anti-English bigotry.'
This charge is in the same vein as that made by those who complained about the 'anti gay platform' given to a priest on the Today programme last week. Their criticism was that he shouldn't have been given the opportunity to express his views. They were within the law so why not? There was a 'pro gay' proponent in the same slot on the next day who balanced things up nicely.
Not every article or commentator has to be balanced. Surely it's the sum of the articles that should be balanced? I don't mind Jonathan Davies screaming about Wales just as long as Brian Moore, Keith Woods, etc. get their chance to chip in too. Which they do.
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Unlike most of the posters here, I actually agree with a lot of that, and for a few hours after the match I thought the better side had won, albeit by a margin (10 points) that flattered them.
But 24 hours later and I remember that Easterby took Czekaj out in the middle of a period when neither side could score and only 3 points separated the sides. And it WAS a penalty try - nobody would attempt such a desperate off-the-ball tackle unless at least 5 points were at stake. If Wales had gone 16-12 up early in the second half then we would have seen a different game.
Having said that I've nothing against the Irish and this side deserves a grand slam (which remember would be only their second ever, the first being in 1948). Easterby - who as a club player I cheer for all the time - wouldn't (couldn't) have complained at a penalty try or even a yellow card. He's an experienced player and knew the risks when he made the tackle.
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Wales played some superb rugby yesterday but fair play to Ireland who ground out the result playing at about 80%. If they can beat an excellent Wales team playing at 80% dear help us when they click! As for England the world beaters. Yes they did win but lets put things into perspective. They beat a rubbish Scottish team who still managed to score 20 points!They also had abit of help from the TMO! Let's see how good they are when they come up against the Irish,French and Welsh!
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Good old England......one game against a poor Scotland side and the usual drible appears.What if they had started against France or Ireland and got a drubbing? Their fair weather fans would be blaming everybody and everything except the obivious....that ain't has good as they think........
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The thing being an England supporter in the Six Nations is that for four of the countries, the biggest game is almost always against England. It's the game the supporters most want to win and the game that the players probably gee themselves up for the most.
As for English arrogance, the team has been pretty competitive for every Five/Six Nations for the past 15 years (with the exception of the last couple of years), so as a supporter I do expect England to win, it's a natural state of being.
The 'arrogance' is something that all successful teams have, and all non-successful teams want to have.
Who else in the Six Nations has that arrogance? The French certainly do, the Irish might be starting to acquire it, no other team has.
I still consider the Six Nations Grand Slam to be competed every year between England, France and a.n. other and am surprised when this is not the case (2005).
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Look the difference between the two sides was simply Wales were without three of their key backs, if you had Shanklin, Jones and Shane in that side on Sunday, they would of finished on the winning side. I think Shanklin especially is such a massive miss, with the battle in the midfield proving critical, he is such an underated player. The biggest positive which came out of that match for me was the forwards, we have a heritage of backs who move with the nimbleness of ballerina鈥檚, but now we have an express train of a forward pack who can compete on the world stage, name me a side outside of New Zealand who would look forward to meeting that pack, when was the last time we could say that!!!!!!!!! I think we can still win this, I don鈥檛 think any side will win all their games and Wales have the whipping boys from the north next to build up a head of steam, sorry lads the kiwi鈥檚 your not!! By the way I watched the England game and I thought that wilko had a wonderful game but what was clear to me is that England are not a patch on France, Ireland or Wales for that matter, they might club a few people to death but that鈥檚 about it.
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It's not too many years since the English were suggesting a breakaway from the Six Nations to play with the Southern Hemisphere sides because the Celtic nations were not up to the mark!!
Consider the anti-English bigotry as a reward for the amazing arrogance that pervades English sport every time they perform well on the world stage, just remember every dog has its' day and that includes the little dogs too!
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Was looking forward to reading a blog about Sundays game. Instead I have to suffer another dose of the old anti-English claptrap.
I spent some time in Scotland a while back and the one impression I came away with was that they hate England more than they love Scotland.
Pretty sad really.
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celtic brotherhood shouldnt be about letting another team win as its felt they hav the best chance of winning the title (thats wot this blog makes it sound to me in very simplistic terms and yes i kno i am going to get ripped by some opinionated 'person')
as for the english thing, is ther a thing called rivalry or is it just ok to hav it wen the english want it i.e. england v germany in football.
welsh rugby is exciting to watch but need to very it a little bit. fair enough the 1st choice wingers would hav prob made a difference
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The Irish were and are rubbish! I expect them to win the grandslam but not because they're this great team as everyone seems to think, but because the English, Frence, and indeed the Welsh at the moment are poor. If it wasn't for some extremely dubious refereing the grandslam bandwagon would have already fallen flat on its face and the talk of Ireland being contenders to win the world cup? Don't make me laugh. It's a shame Wales didn't get the result that their efforts clearly deserved and a sham that it happened to be because of a ref.
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I am an England fan, and whilst I was delighted to see England finally put together a decent game, I have to say that Sunday's game was the match of the weekend, well done to both teams! There you go - not too hard to be generous to another country in the six nations is it - I thought rugby was about respect - take note all you anti-English, so-called rugby fans
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Where do these one-eyed people come from who insist on banging on endlessly about English arrogance? There are arrogant bores in all nations - that's just life (unfortunately). Some Welsh rugby fans, as my father, a Scot, would testify to, were insufferable in the seventies, certainly incapable of demonstrating the humility demonstrated by Wilkinson in post match interviews on Saturday. Part of the thrill of the Six Nations is that, in a rose tinted way it is Culloden, Agincourt, etc. all over again, but keep a sense of perspective! We are, as a previous correspondent states, in the C21st now...
Greenwood, Wilkinson, Johnson, Hill, Robinson, Leonard... arrogant? Yes, there is the occasional aberation - the insufferably smug Carling and plain twp Cohen for example. Where are they now? Keep a sense of perspective and stop spouting clich茅s!
As an Englishman watching the Wales/Ireland game on Sunday it was a joy to watch much of the Welsh handling game and arguably, short sighted Southern Hemisphere refereeing cost Wales the game.
And leave off Moore and Davies - their commentaries bring colour to the game. What do you want? Robots?
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trying again. If this one goes through I will send you my message
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This is for Paul (number 13)! wt are you on bout wilkinson didnt kick all our points!!! notice we scored 4 tries! but compare that to ur beloved wales! i think u'll find jones kicked all your points though! unlucky m8 try scoring some tries!
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This is for Paul (number 13)! wt are you on bout wilkinson didnt kick all our points!!! notice we scored 4 tries! but compare that to ur beloved wales! i think u'll find jones kicked all your points though! unlucky m8 try scoring some tries!
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I think you should improve your Grandstand 6 Nations Rugby flashback system. Too often last weekend flashbacks were uncompleted, or not even shown after critical sequences of play. Even if a commentator said 'Lets see that again!', either nothing happened immediately, or nothing happened at all.
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Let's talk about Rugby!
Jones was disappointing, o'Gadhra and Darcy excellent. The new Welsh players showed much promise but lacked some pace.
Ireland took their opportunities but didn't make enough
Wales made opportunities but did nothing with them.
The referee had an absolutely shocking first 30 minutes of the second half - it reminded me of the second half of the World Cup final!
I do disagree with one reply on this blog claining that a sending off doesn't help the game. It is spoiling play that slows a game and everyone knows that it 's a caution, then a yellow and then a red - not following the rules favours the infringing team, as does awarding them a knock-on when in fact they have deliberately fouled a player within two metres of the line.
Now there's interesting - what would have been the score if the Irish had two guys off for 10 and a Welsh penalty try?
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I think all true Irish rugby fans have huge respect and admiration for Welsh rugby and its fans. Having said that I don't think it's useful complaining about the referee. Pushing the envelope of what is achievable with a ref is part of the competitive game. Why did Wales not pick up on it? lack of experience simply.
The current welsh side play pretty rugby but as was shown on Sunday, they lack the ability to finish, therefore all that flare is useless. It annoys me when I hear people say the losing team should have won: they didn't and therefore didn't deserve it.
Ireland won because they played patient, clinical rugby. Everytime they were in an attacking position they looked like scoring and almost always broke the gain line. At the same time they knew they could not win in Cardiff without a flawless defense and therefore concentrated on that aspect of their game.
That is what makes a great team: changing approach to suit the situation.
Had Wales had a full strength side I do accept that the scoreline would have been different, but I still believe Ireland would have won. That is because they played the referee with cunning. All great teams do this, and it is the edge required to win tournaments.
The only thing stopping Ireland winning a grandslam or getting far in the world cup in September is a lack of depth in the squad. Unfortunately only their first 20 players are capable of this.
As regards the comments about bigotry: England are just as dismissive with regard the French and not solely with regard to sport. I don't believe any nation is innocent of wishing defeat on other sides.
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Hook at 10 and Henson at 12 please.....oh...and yes...leave Brian and Eddie alone...they're brilliant....as is Jiff; I'm quite getting to like old Gussett as well. But I'm sure there's something more useful Mr Inverdale could be doing isn't there ?
Alban 11 Cymru 28
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Bryan Logan wrote 'Rugby is the national sport in Ireland'. It could not be much further from the truth, Rugby is probably the 4th most popular sport, it is certainly behind the GAA games. The Irish and Welsh are enjoy good spirits with each other because neither gets unbelievably arrogant when a win is achieved unlike the english who are dreadful to watch but seem not realise it, all they can think about is johnny.
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What an enjoyable weekend of six nations rugby. I suspect that, like me, many fans will have enjoyed Brian and Jonathan providing expert impartial commentry on the games!Have never heard Eddie Butler repremanding a co comentator before.
Come on 大象传媒 let the pair of them listen to an old Bill McLaren tape to get pointers on non-bias presentation skills.
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good man Bill, stir it up a bit.
as an irishman im proud of where the irish team is at, they deserve every credit. to say that the other teams are poor right now is disingenuous.
we're not very comfortable with all the grand slam hype, it doesnt do the irish team any favours. but what can you do- the media have to be dramatic! the french and english will be quietly satisfied with this 'tag'.
what i really like about the irish team now is that they've got some 'real rugby' players. leamy and easterby are not flair attacking players but at the contact situation they're just excellent. this was underlined against wales yesterday. i respect the welsh as knowledgeable rugby people but i wont hear sour grapes. the easterby-czekaj 'incident' was fair game. czekaz didnt have control of the ball and easterby made a fair effort to swipe the ball away.
as far as sin bins were called for, the referee compromised the situation in that he frequently allowed players who went to ground with the ball to hold on too long under challenge from the 'ripper'. another ref might have given a few penalties for holding on, but in fairness to the ref yesterday, his interpretation contributed to a flowing game.
the irish pack needs to win the french game. plenty of lineout drives, get Croker roaring, play the territory Rog, put 'em under pressure jack, mill 'em darce, bring it home Pauly. thanks
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Firstly as a welsh supporter, we should all be delighted how the team played given the injuries to key players and Gareth Thomas being banned. If we had been faced with yesterday's situation 5 years ago we would have been thrashed, simple as that. Secondly, Ireland demonstrated just how streetwise they were in certain areas but this was because of the referee. Mates of mine (english supporters) always say we tend to blame the ref when we lose which we dont, but what I cant accept are the standards shown by Kelvin Deaker. Czekai undoubtedly would have scored with the line at his mercy, an absolute penalty if ever there was one, a penalty try a definate possibility, a yellow card a must. Once a team realises they're riding their luck, they'l push things a little further. Im all for referees to have global experience of refereeing, but please for crying out loud, get some consistency in officiating. Tony Spreadbury, Chris White and Joel Jutge most certainly would have marshalled the game much better than the new zealander.
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I think its quite pleasant having all this anti english chat. You get so lost in the fact that you all want england to lose you didnt see that the much vaunted irish pack failed to deliver and the only reason they won is that wales didnt have the experience or class in their back division. So get off your welsh and irish soap boxes and look up the word arrogant you may find it describes the ignorant bigotry of the "celtic cousins".
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l support the French and boy have I had to put up with bias co-commentators (and commentators) over the years. Remember Gavin Hastings? Does anyone remember BOD's try against France in 2001 awarded by TMO (it was as bad as Wilkisnsons). Nigel Starmer Smith and I think Philip Matthews (why does he always co-commentate on the French games) seemed to actually agree with the TMO. Only Guscott injected a bit of impartiality into the affairs and referred to it as a "disgusting decision" and unlike Wilkinson's try (at least Brian Moore thought it was outrageous) it did have a material effect on the game. I agree that Davies makes the odd grunt here and there but in fact when it comes to big decisions he is quite fair. I don't like Brian Moore one little bit but I think he is quite impartial. If England are crap he'll say so. No, my friends, you try supporting France.
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I am not entirely convinced with the Celtic brotherhood thing. I had my teeth knocked out by a disappointment Irishman after the 1983 match in Cardiff.
I am also not convinced that beating the English should be the ultimate aim for Wales either.
I have lived most he of my life in London and I have friends who support England. Most were pleased when we won the 鈥榮lam鈥 playing which such style and invention, they readily admit that England could never play in that way, the 鈥榃elsh way鈥. They don鈥檛 want to, they love the English way鈥 鈥 pack dominating stranglehold, rolling mauls pulled down and Wilko kicking the heart of the opposition - this to them as exciting as a full length of the field counter attack try. I have some admiration for it myself, as it won them a World Cup. But, being a passionate Welsh supporter I hope we will beat them and others playing our game. But, not because they a not our Celtic brothers. If the truth was told we have much more in common with the English than we do with the Irish or the Scots. And, as the English are really French anyway - with them too.
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From the different posts it is clear that the 6N's continues to promote and provoke national pride in all the nations involved. I have to be honest, I am off the "anyone but England" brigade, not because I am inherently anti-English, but because so many of the TV and radio commentators are myopic when it comes to the rest of Britain and Ireland. If England or an English athlete are playing they are identified as English, but at some point in the coverage anyone from NI, Wales or Scotland becomes British. This is, for me one of the things that breeds the attitude of "anyone but England,"Also, perhaps if the English tried to
recognise or acknowledge this there would be fewer anti-English sentiments expressed here. On another level, it is always fun to knck the big kid of their pedestal:).
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A few thoughts from an Irish follower:
- Wales were really good. They deserved more from the match and with a little luck could have achieved it
- Ireland rode their luck on quite a few occasions, but we've been in the other camp more often than I care to remember. Moral victories were the norm for decades. Now some people are insinuating that Ireland's victory on Sunday was an 'immoral victory'! We're not complaining!
- Wales will do a lot of damage in the championship and may even be challenging for the top spot at the finish.
- Ireland will find difficulty in recovering in the five days before next Saturday. Fatigue will be rampant and strains, knocks and bruises will not have recovered adequately.
- England played very well against Scotland, particularly Jonny! The problem that 'celts' have with England is historical obviously, but most people actually like ordinary English sports followers and participants. However a certain English media attitude of superiority and arrogance lies just under the surface and emerges horribly on occasions of victory.
- The historic 'schoolyard bully' attitude emerges and to be honest the jingoism is sickening for 'celtic' neighbours to listen to.
- Historic and genetic memories also play a part and as sport is now usually the modern war arena, that is where jingoism now thrives.
- Every nationality has negative attributes. But the English media need to take account of all of these factors and not fall into the trap of believing that rugby or soccer or cricket success confirms the percieved superiority by the English race over all others.
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This was an exciting game purely from the point of view of Wales having nothing to lose. They went for the jugular and put the Irish on the back foot.
It boiled down in the end, to experience - Ireland were able to capitalise on Welsh errors and snatch victory from what looked like the jaws of defeat. Irealnd made just as many mistakes, but were able to defend them.
This was Ireland on an off-day however "thrilling" the game may have been to watch. Do not forget the way South Africa and Australia were dispatched in the autumn.
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Ireland finally realised through bitter experience that in the modern game you need tries as well as kicks to win matches. Thus they won on Sunday when otherwise Wales might have. Wales first choice wings may well have changed the result but what I think is forgotten is that the best centre in Wales is a New Zealander and the best captain an Irishman. Austin Healey's comments about Jones were quite perceptive too and the centre in question perhaps covers some of Jones' faults.
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Ireland finally realised through bitter experience that in the modern game you need tries as well as kicks to win matches. Thus they won on Sunday when otherwise Wales might have. Wales first choice wings may well have changed the result but what I think is forgotten is that the best centre in Wales is a New Zealander and the best captain an Irishman. Austin Healey's comments about Jones were quite perceptive too and the centre in question perhaps covers some of Jones' faults.
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Ireland finally realised through bitter experience that in the modern game you need tries as well as kicks to win matches. Thus they won on Sunday when otherwise Wales might have. Wales first choice wings may well have changed the result but what I think is forgotten is that the best centre in Wales is a New Zealander and the best captain an Irishman. Austin Healey's comments about Jones were quite perceptive too and the centre in question perhaps covers some of Jones' faults.
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Ireland finally realised through bitter experience that in the modern game you need tries as well as kicks to win matches. Thus they won on Sunday when otherwise Wales might have. Wales first choice wings may well have changed the result but what I think is forgotten is that the best centre in Wales is a New Zealander and the best captain an Irishman. Austin Healey's comments about Jones were quite perceptive too and the centre in question perhaps covers some of Jones' faults.
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I didn't realise Tom Shanklin was a new zealander.
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At 06:49 PM on 05 Feb 2007, Bryan Logan wrote:
I have also been to Twickenham often, where the arrogance is suffocating and brings out the worst in the opposition fans. From this you breed a camaradarie between all of the Irish, Welsh, Scots, French, Italian, Australian, New Zealand South African... you get the idea.
I love anyone beating England, I absolutely love it. I was devastated when England sacked Robinson, I was looking forward to Samoa and USA fighting for the second spot in Pool 'A' in the World Cup behind South Africa.
hmmmmm ..... I was obviously mistaken ...there is no arrogance whatsoever with southern hemisphere teams/fans ...how silly of me to think so .
typical comments from someone who takes sporting rivalries seriously , and probably lets the performance of his team (over which he has no control) upset his week !
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Unfortunately I am old enough to remember the great Welsh team of the 1970's. If you want arrogance you should try them, no magnanimity in victory or defeat (very occasionally). So, grow up guys; stop trying to visit the sins of their distant forefathers on the English for the days of Empire. Its a cyclical business and most Nations will have their turn. Better to remember the atmosphere of the Lions and start to look outward from the British Isles.
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"The Welsh can't be arrogant?
You must have been asleep in 2005 then."
Hey DK, that wasn't arrogance, that was sheer unconfined joy at seeing some of the best rugby we'd played for years topped off with a big juicy Grand Slam cherry.
Arrogance was the pub full of Irish after they beat England telling me and my Welsh mates that they were "all coming to Cardiff to win the Grand Slam", with no hint of modesty or humility. Of course, then France beat them in Dublin and neither the team nor the fans showed up in Cardiff.
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i would like to raise the point again that having Brian Moore commentate on the scotland England match was infact ridiculos. Scotland were well beaten..England simply out played them in the best part of the game, but when you have an Englishman screaming comments like "go wide" and "Oh god overlap on the left" it raelly make you want to throw a table at your T.v
Then the tables turned, just after JW's try, he want off air for about 4 mins he suddenly changed his attitude. Probably because someone had slapped him about abit in the commentry box!
PLEASE GET RID OF BRAIN MOORE!
Either
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Why are people having a go for Sean Davies being anti-English?? Is it not true that Wales, Scotland, Ireland and France, and the Aussies for that matter, love to hate the English??
It should be taken as a compliment, you are the world champions!! Instead of whinging, what about a witty comeback?! But, oh yes, that's right, the English sense of humour and banter, goes out the window when a few home truths are stated!!
Witty English comebacks??......
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If we merely stick to what happened over the weekend rather than baiting the english. WHich we do too much, however much fun that is! (I'm an exiled taff)
Johnny did have a marvelous return to internationals. Just not quite as marvelous as even Eddie Butler described. You always get space and time behind an advancing pack, a very flattering thing it can be. The same goes for Ellis. No-one really rated him until his first game behind a dominant pack and against a shocking defence.
But all that means is they played well, but we don't really know where they stand. The Irish and French back row will close those options to them, so we'll see what else they can bring.
Ireland probably deserved to win on Sunday. The only difference between the two sides, who both played some scrappy rugby, was experience. They had it, we didn't. This manifested itself as clinical finishing of opportunities (and also cynical killing of ball and once man). I think that is the sign of a team on the up, when you get the bounce of the ball, Ronan!, and the decisions going your way. When that Ronan kick stopped, indicated and turned left into touch, I knew it wasn't going to be Wales' day.
Same thing for Wilko's 'try'...these things just happen, although shouldn't.
Back to Wales. I was happy with the end performance. Ignoring coulda shoulda woulda, the young 'uns proved useful cover and will only get better and Peel was epic.
Hope that didn't 'offend' anyone!
P.S England's back line still couldn't create pee from beer! Sorry couldn't resist!!!
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Eh Rhys,
Was at the Ireland v Wales match in 2005 and there was plenty of Irish fans there! Maybe you watched it on TV at home or something...
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Good win for the Irish boys, Congratulations. But, I am extremely proud of the boys who played for us and I think we can take more from the game than Ireland can. I think that with our strength in depth and the first line players we had missing then we will pose real problems come the world cup for most teams. That was everything Ireland had to throw at us, and in a game like this were margins are so fine you have to say the ref had a big part to play in the outcome in not showing cards, I'm sure he will be disappointed when he sees the replay. Fair play to the Irish boys if you can get away with it you have got to do it, maybe we should have been as ruthless? I definitely think we had the edge on their pack. And as happened in the Lions tour and against Leicester O'Connell went missing in action. Popham is certainly giving Wales that hard edge we sometimes miss, when he plays he wants to hurt people and impose himself thats what you need in a back row player. I am also amazed that so many teams underrate us as a national team, not only our recent success in the 6 nations but also the form of our regions the scarlets are flying high, and although the ospreys didn't qualify from their group they still beat sale away which is hell of an impressive achievement.I certainly think we can beat England on the 17th march but am saddened that people set their sights that low as to say thats the only game we want to win as it shows no ambition. Come on boys we are better than that!
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What does the 大象传媒 feel is the purpose of this blog?
Yet again an unbalanced article is posted that has given impetus to a lot of ignorant bigotry from all sides.
Lets have comments more appreciative of the game and not intent on raising hackles.
"I was once in a pub when an arrogant Irish/English/Welsh/etc."?
It's like being back at infants.
Step forward the first man out there whose team are angels, otherwise, stop your childish rants and leave this RUGBY blog to those who enjoy the game, and not small-minded little-Ireland/Wales/England-ers.
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Good win for the Irish boys, Congratulations. But, I am extremely proud of the boys who played for us and I think we can take more from the game than Ireland can. I think that with our strength in depth and the first line players we had missing then we will pose real problems come the world cup for most teams. That was everything Ireland had to throw at us, and in a game like this were margins are so fine you have to say the ref had a big part to play in the outcome in not showing cards, I'm sure he will be disappointed when he sees the replay. Fair play to the Irish boys if you can get away with it you have got to do it, maybe we should have been as ruthless? I definitely think we had the edge on their pack. And as happened in the Lions tour and against Leicester O'Connell went missing in action. Popham is certainly giving Wales that hard edge we sometimes miss, when he plays he wants to hurt people and impose himself thats what you need in a back row player. I am also amazed that so many teams underrate us as a national team, not only our recent success in the 6 nations but also the form of our regions the scarlets are flying high, and although the ospreys didn't qualify from their group they still beat sale away which is hell of an impressive achievement.I certainly think we can beat England on the 17th march but am saddened that people set their sights that low as to say thats the only game we want to win as it shows no ambition. Come on boys we are better than that!
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Just a quick note on this Celtic nonsense that's being written here. I'm Scottish and having studied my country's history I am aware that fewer than 50% of Scots can claim to have Celtic blood in them. It is particularly unlikely amongst those Scots most interested in rugby, who are from the Borders normally, and therefore nearly all of Anglo-Saxon/Pictish stock. The only Celts in Scotland are those descended from the Scotti who came from Ireland, gave our country its name and the Gaelic language, which was pretty much only ever spoken across the Highlands. Add to this a mix of Viking blood across Galloway, the Western Isles and the Northern Isles and you could say we modern Scots are a right bunch of mongrels. The Welsh, though, as Welsh speakers will know, are not really Celtic but predate that. Their languages is pretty much a descendant of th ancient Brythonic language that was spoken all over the British mainland pre-Gaelic/Anglo-Saxon. It was pushed back into the western most extremities of the island by Anglo-saxon hordes leaving versions spoken only in Wales and Cornwall. Cornish is now pretty much defunct, although the Welsh language is strong again. If anything nmy Welsh friends should brag about being British (as opposed to half German), but they are not really Celtic. Coupled with the fact that most Welsh fans hail from non-Welsh speaking parts of the principality, and they arrive in Edinburgh or London with their English banknotes asking for bitter, you could forgive the Irish for not thinking they are very Celtic. Ireland is the most Celtic of the six nations, but even then they have a good smattering of Viking blood and other influences. Sorry about this, it's not really to do with rugby but I'm basically trying to say we should be gentlemenly, enjoy our rugby, have a drink with the opposition but not get into any phoney alliances which have no historical basis.
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There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. Confidence breeds success and can often be mistaken for arrogance. Take the Aussies. They can quite often be thought of as arrogant, but it is their confidence which has helped them become so successful in the past. The same could be said of England when they won the world cup and Wales when they won the Grand Slam. Look at Scotland last year when they finally started to have a bit fo faith in themselves. Ireland appear to have the confidence this year and it could be the slam for them. As an English fan I want my team to be confident without being arrogant. I am desperate for England to be successful but would hope that nobody sees this as arrogance, rather pride in my team.
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Shanklin is an underrated player. Be that, was. He hasn't played well since 2005.We're not going to win the six nations, so we need to use the tournament as a platform to work on for the World cup. we need to bring in young players like we did against Ireland to build a new team. Its ridiculous to celebrate beating italy with a 30+ yr old backs average. Shanklin and G Thomas simply shouldn't get picked, its not in our future interests. J Robinson needs time to develop in that outside centre position, maybe swapping him with M Watkins. S Jones is past his best to. He is a very predictable player. Only ONCE in the entire game did he take the ball into the irish line. The other 99.99% he passes. I don't think he's a great captain either. Peel does ALOT more bossing than him. Put Hook at 10. Brew deserves a full game. The first try for Ireland wasn't Czejak's fault, he passed it to the captain and choice kicker; Jones took an age to kick it. Not good enough. He is a great player, I just think we've seen his best. As for Henson, he'll either rise to the challenge and play some decent rugby or live off advertising for the rest of his life. There's a whole at 15 needing a big Lewsey-esque player, and he should see that as an opportunity. That or he'll move to America for millions to play rugby until he's 35. :)
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Just a quick note on this Celtic nonsense that's being written here. I'm Scottish and having studied my country's history I am aware that fewer than 50% of Scots can claim to have Celtic blood in them. It is particularly unlikely amongst those Scots most interested in rugby, who are from the Borders normally, and therefore nearly all of Anglo-Saxon/Pictish stock. The only Celts in Scotland are those descended from the Scotti who came from Ireland, gave our country its name and the Gaelic language, which was pretty much only ever spoken across the Highlands. Add to this a mix of Viking blood across Galloway, the Western Isles and the Northern Isles and you could say we modern Scots are a right bunch of mongrels. The Welsh, though, as Welsh speakers will know, are not really Celtic but predate that. Their languages is pretty much a descendant of th ancient Brythonic language that was spoken all over the British mainland pre-Gaelic/Anglo-Saxon. It was pushed back into the western most extremities of the island by Anglo-saxon hordes leaving versions spoken only in Wales and Cornwall. Cornish is now pretty much defunct, although the Welsh language is strong again. If anything nmy Welsh friends should brag about being British (as opposed to half German), but they are not really Celtic. Coupled with the fact that most Welsh fans hail from non-Welsh speaking parts of the principality, and they arrive in Edinburgh or London with their English banknotes asking for bitter, you could forgive the Irish for not thinking they are very Celtic. Ireland is the most Celtic of the six nations, but even then they have a good smattering of Viking blood and other influences. Sorry about this, it's not really to do with rugby but I'm basically trying to say we should be gentlemenly, enjoy our rugby, have a drink with the opposition but not get into any phoney alliances which have no historical basis.
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There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. Confidence breeds success and can often be mistaken for arrogance. Take the Aussies. They can quite often be thought of as arrogant, but it is their confidence which has helped them become so successful in the past. The same could be said of England when they won the world cup and Wales when they won the Grand Slam. Look at Scotland last year when they finally started to have a bit fo faith in themselves. Ireland appear to have the confidence this year and it could be the slam for them. As an English fan I want my team to be confident without being arrogant. I am desperate for England to be successful but would hope that nobody sees this as arrogance, rather pride in my team.
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Shanklin is an underrated player. Be that, was. He hasn't played well since 2005.We're not going to win the six nations, so we need to use the tournament as a platform to work on for the World cup. we need to bring in young players like we did against Ireland to build a new team. Its ridiculous to celebrate beating italy with a 30+ yr old backs average. Shanklin and G Thomas simply shouldn't get picked, its not in our future interests. J Robinson needs time to develop in that outside centre position, maybe swapping him with M Watkins. S Jones is past his best to. He is a very predictable player. Only ONCE in the entire game did he take the ball into the irish line. The other 99.99% he passes. I don't think he's a great captain either. Peel does ALOT more bossing than him. Put Hook at 10. Brew deserves a full game. The first try for Ireland wasn't Czejak's fault, he passed it to the captain and choice kicker; Jones took an age to kick it. Not good enough. He is a great player, I just think we've seen his best. As for Henson, he'll either rise to the challenge and play some decent rugby or live off advertising for the rest of his life. There's a hole at 15 needing a big Lewsey-esque player, and he should see that as an opportunity. That or he'll move to America for millions to play rugby until he's 35. :)
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Bloody hell! It seems everyone is arrogant. Is it half term or something?
The English have every right to be happy after saturday. The team looked awesome on paper, performed well on the day and will grow as the tournament progresses. Wilkinson and Ellis were huge positives.
Wales had a fairly decimated team but put on a good show. They will be excellent when at full strength.
Ireland were below par however the Ireland had three chances and took all three. They are winning these kind of games now. They have that belief about them.
Finally can people please stop whinging about Ireland slowing the ball. England won the world cup and New Zealand are favourites for the next one based on this kind of play. Playing to the whistle is intellegent rugby and teams that do it usually win.
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Wonderful game - shame Wales didn't have an electric winger. And Ireland got away with being pretty cynical at long spells on their try line.
As a scot who lives in England I'm utterly ashamed of the rampant paranoia and xenophobia against England which alas is even found in the beautiful game. Responsible fans should realise that to indulge in it even tongue in cheek releases the ignorant types into madness (my friend got his nose broken for wearing an English shirt in a small Scottish town on Calcutta cup day) and perpetuates mindless stereotypes. Some areas are off limits for responsible jokers!
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Good win for the Irish boys, Congratulations. But, I am extremely proud of the boys who played for us and I think we can take more from the game than Ireland can. I think that with our strength in depth and the first line players we had missing then we will pose real problems come the world cup for most teams. That was everything Ireland had to throw at us, and in a game like this were margins are so fine you have to say the ref had a big part to play in the outcome in not showing cards, I'm sure he will be disappointed when he sees the replay. Fair play to the Irish boys if you can get away with it you have got to do it, maybe we should have been as ruthless? I definitely think we had the edge on their pack. And as happened in the Lions tour and against Leicester O'Connell went missing in action. Popham is certainly giving Wales that hard edge we sometimes miss, when he plays he wants to hurt people and impose himself thats what you need in a back row player. I am also amazed that so many teams underrate us as a national team, not only our recent success in the 6 nations but also the form of our regions the scarlets are flying high, and although the ospreys didn't qualify from their group they still beat sale away which is hell of an impressive achievement.I certainly think we can beat England on the 17th march but am saddened that people set their sights that low as to say thats the only game we want to win as it shows no ambition. Come on boys we are better than that!
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I can't see why the English still think we only have the desire to just to be happy to beat "England" and I honestly think that many of my fellow countrymen would agree with me. Perhaps this is what the English seem to think but the reality is beating England is no longer "the great achievement" we have moved on and now have bigger fish to fry. Let's be honest here, England are now probably the 4th best team in the 6 nations behind Ireland, Wales and France and possibly the 8th best team in the world when you include the All Blacks, Australia, SA and Argentina.
So why get so bothered about beating England ? We're mainly focused on beating all the teams we play not just the English team...but hey if England do beat us then well done...it would be a good achievement and I don't think anyone in Wales would feel any resentment towards the English for doing so...no more so than against the Irish.
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I'm glad Ireland won. I never knew Ireland were 2nd, but go Ireland. Also, to the poster who said that Ireland should wina WC, or Grand slam, they did win one, before the war,and as for the WC, well, you know England, population 50m plus, Ireland for lots of the last century, population under 5m, may still be as well. So, considering the size ofd the respective countriues and the resources, England are getting what's expected, Ireland a lot more than expected!
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I'm glad Ireland won. I never knew Ireland were 2nd, but go Ireland. Also, to the poster who said that Ireland should wina WC, or Grand slam, they did win one, before the war,and as for the WC, well, you know England, population 50m plus, Ireland for lots of the last century, population under 5m, may still be as well. So, considering the size ofd the respective countriues and the resources, England are getting what's expected, Ireland a lot more than expected!
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Well I am Irish too and I can say that out in many parts of Ireland there is a still a great affinity with Wales and the Welsh. I imagine that the urbanites of Dub and Belfast might not share this affinity? When I heard Welsh being spoken in their capital on match day I was jealous that our national language is not spoken in ours. I do support Wales against England- Wales are our closer neighbours nothing necessarily to do with racial affinity (which is true but has nothing to do with being "Celtic"). But rugby is great!
I thought the Welsh played better than ireland when I first watched the match but on rewatching highlights Ireland had many other chances other than the three tries. The Czekaj incident was no more than penalty against Easterby but watch it again and you will see it came from a forward pass. On the ruck/break down issue it was very much half a dozen and 6 of the other and that is the nature of modern rugby. I think that the result was fair but Wales should not be disappointed. I am worried about France who are underestimated and the loss of Stringer and possibly BOD will massively disrupt a very settled team.
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Bloody hell! It seems everyone is arrogant. Let's grow up a bit people.
The English have every right to be happy after saturday. The team looked awesome on paper, performed well on the day and will grow as the tournament progresses. Wilkinson and Ellis were huge positives.
Scotland on the whole however were poor. They seemed to have no belief.
Wales had a fairly decimated team but put on a good show. They will be excellent when at full strength.
Ireland were below par however the Ireland had three chances and took all three. They are winning these kind of games now. They have that belief about them.
Finally can people please stop whinging about Ireland slowing the ball. England won the world cup and New Zealand are favourites for the next one based on this kind of play. Playing to the whistle is intellegent rugby and teams that do it usually win.
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"Now I don鈥檛 really buy into this 鈥楥eltic brotherhood鈥 theory."
Then at the end:
"On Sunday night, Welsh supporters could be heard happily belting out 鈥淭he Fields of Athenry鈥 throughout the city centre.
But if Wilko & co leave the Millennium Stadium with a win on 17 March, don鈥檛 expect to hear 鈥淪wing Low鈥 sounding from many Cardiff hostelries."
A bit contradicting really.
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For those of you complaining about biased commentary, what does it matter if it is biased, surely your view of the game or your enjoyment isn't going to be affected by a man sitting in a box shouting down a microphone?
I had to watch the game with the commentary in Spanish, it was difficult to follow and there was simply no passion or interest in the game for the commentators.
Somtimes it's good for there to be some passion and excitement coming from the commentators, of course the game itself is what we really want to watch, but I think commentators add to watching the game, not take away from it, whoever they're supporting.
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Well, Sean Davies's views really does sum up Welsh rugby. Wales will never be a consistantly good side (they were lucky in 2005)until they forget about the 'old enemy' and concentrate on the bigger picture. They should hate to the bone loosing to anyone! and not just think that it is OK as long as they beat England. The other Celtic nations also suffer from this problem but to a much lesser extent. All northern hemisphere sides need the mental attitde that has made the southern hemisphere sides the best, for as long as anyone can remember. Get the chips off your shoulders and focus on what is important!
Oh yes, you can have a go at me when you win the world cup, but you will have to reach me in my grave!
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what a worrying collection of rubbish from TOM. What planet are you on! Shanklin to old, we should bring Robinson through hes only four months older than Robinson, just turned 27. Build a new team??? we have the making of a superb team Gareth Thomas is the only player over thirty. Matthew Watkins are you mad the bloke only passes the ball when hes in trouble, can't even get in the scarlets side. Stephen Jones is not past his best, this is all he has to offer, he is not an attacking threat.our team is at a perfect age, and with youngsters coming through thick and fast from our academies it is looking very good for our fututre. TOM if you need advice on rugby let me know i'll keep you upto date.
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Its amazing how much a sport can bring out the worst in some people. Where did the simple enjoyment of watching a game of rugby go? With racism and anti-english comments everywhere, its pathetic. Thats why I have to say..lets just get on with the rest of the tournament and enjoy the games without worrying about who fouled who or what referee made a bad decision somewhere. Its all in the past and any team coach will tell you that the past is gone and the future games are the only thing to think about. So lets try to talk about rugby here rather than how great our countries are and how bad other countries teams are. We all know that the countries we live in are not perfect. So why pretend that our rugby is? Irish Fan.
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I'm not too bothered by this anti-English ranting as long as it is confined to the rugby pitch and carried out without malice. I'm Welsh, and I'm not exactly heartbroken when England lose, but I'm also proud to be British and harbour not one iota of resentment towards the English, who are, let's face it, very decent neighbours (it's the likes of South Korea you have to feel sorry for).
I sometimes worry that in 30 years the UK will be like the Balkans, the way we gripe about each other sometimes. Come on guys, a bit of good natured banter is all well and good but let's not get carried away.
Here's looking to a great 6 Nations - the best sporting spectacle in the Northern hemisphere. And roll on the next Lions Tour so we can all be pals again.
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COME ON IRELAND!!!!!!!! or Wales
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I'm an Englishmen who does feel a little ray of sunshine after our display on Sat. The game I saw was a vastly improved one in all areas not just the No. 10 position.
What I do find amusing/baffling is how much attention and emotion England receive from our british neighbours. I do feel that the negative attitude against England is quite pathetic. When Wales, Ireland or Scotland play a country that's not british then I root for the british side, it seems kinda natural.
The arrogance thing is something that any winning team enjoys. Up until 2-3 yrs ago we beat everyone, everyone!!! NZ in their back yard, Oz in RWC final in Oz and 6N. Look at Oz at cricket, are they arrogant....hell yes. NZ at rugby.... super arrogant/confident. England have just produced a display reminiscent of the '03 side. That's why were excited, the hope that we can play and win again.
Lastly really enjoyed the Wales/Ireland game. Felt Wales were unfortunate and Ireland clinical.
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well ive got to say it well done wales evan no we lost but we still put up a good game and 1 thing i wont to say is well done to gethin jenkins he gorgeous and we all love him expecilly me but im lookin 4wd to the game on sat now again wales v scotland all we can do is fingers crossed but ive got faith in are boyos cum on wales
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Mr Davies - I hope you Cave is warm
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as a welsh supporter i am disapointed with the result on sunday,but there were a few positives to come from that match.
the backrow did well to contain the irish who looked good in the welsh 22 sometimes,the way all the six nations teams are playing at the moment there won't be any of them in the semis of the world cup, alot of work has to be done by all the teams if they want to compete with the kiwis lets hope 1st round nerves are now settled & lets start building a northen hemiphere side that can compete on the world stage.
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Welsh supporters belting out "Fields of Athenray"? Shurely shome mishtake.
Or had Mr Davies been imbibing along with the thousands of others along St Mary Street before writing his "article"
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*sigh* To those who claim that this post is full of anti-England bigotry - I disagree. I think, if anything, it's anti-arrogance.
As one England fan commenting here put it:
"I expect the Grand Slam to be competed between England, France and a.n. other and am surprised when this is not the case" ... and you wonder why the rest of us raise an eyebrow?
The reason why the rest of us want to beat England is due to a combination of their performance in the past, and the attitude about it - a bit like England's reaction to France really.
As for Wales' celebrations, although perhaps there is nothing to throw a party about havign lost 3 tries to nil, there was some good rugby from a depleted and injury-ridden team, and we learned some lessons that can be used later in the Championship. And yes, used in that "big game" against England, which is actually only as big as the Ireland game, being our only two home fixtures - a big starting weekend to the Six Nations competition and hopefully a bigger, more successful finish to close both Wales' campaign and the Six Nations as a whole!
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There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. Confidence
breeds success and can often be mistaken for arrogance. Take the
Aussies. They can quite often be thought of as arrogant, but it is
their confidence which has helped them become so successful in the
past. The same could be said of England when they won the world cup
and Wales when they won the Grand Slam. Look at Scotland last year when they finally started to have a bit of faith in themselves. Ireland appear to have the confidence this year and it could be the slam for them. As an English fan I want my team to be confident without being arrogant. I am desperate for England to be successful but would hope that nobody sees this as arrogance, rather pride in my
team.
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well ive got to say it well done wales evan no we lost but we still put up a good game and 1 thing i wont to say is well done to gethin jenkins he gorgeous and we all love him expecilly me but im lookin 4wd to the game on sat now again wales v scotland all we can do is fingers crossed but ive got faith in are boyos cum on wales
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The English can't seem to help themselves coming across as arrogant.
Take the petulant schoolboy Guscott when he found out that NZ were hosting the next world cup..."Nah...not fair..." and he spat the dummy. They turn into a bullish chanting pack when they win and it is painful and a bit embarrassing to the rest of us which is why we like to beat England so much.
The Aussies are supremely confident and cheaky (and slightly annoying) when they win but they usually do it with such style that you can let them off.
The rest of us enjoy our wins but don't feel the need to go chanting down the street about it or hark back to history when our country dominated everyone (... those were they days when everyone else knew their place)
If England won anything with flair and were magnanimous in victory ( ie: AB's response ...All credit to the opposition...) then they wouldn't evoke such 'anti-Englishness' from the rest of us.
I enjoyed the Welsh / Irish game for the entertaining game that rugby can be when 2 sides play running rugby and don't kick constantly..oh, that's another reason why English rugby makes me groan.
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Celtic pride blah blah bloody blah
I like winning the 6 nations as much as the next man but the only team I really like to beat is France.As an england supporter I also like to see all the home nations beat the french. i even went to paris a few years back to support ireland in the opener.This anti english drivel is pathetic, if wales/scotland etc spent more time on playing rather than whining at the refs decisions and worrying about england then we have 4 decent home sides in the World Cup, after all we are all fed up with the southern hemisphere arrogance.You not like england but we did deserve the world cup and hopefully a home nation can lift it again
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Ignorng the xenophobic morons and concentrating on the games played over the weekend. England beat a poor Scottish team. Wales and Ireland game was exciting but full of errors - not least by a lax referee. A good match between two mediocre sides. France were barely adequate beating a very off-colour Italy and unless all the Northern Hemisphere teams get their fingers out the World Cup will make horrible viewing.
International Rugby is a sport, guys, it's not politics by other means. It's not there to cause fights and incite hatred. So let's all show each other a little more respect and good humour and those that need to do so can grow up a bit.
And for those on the lunatic fringe - well there's always Association Football
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I can't believe us Scots get labelled as being an average team. Our performance against England was albeit pretty poor but we seemed to get our tactics wrong in trying to play to cut out England's strengths rather than play our own high-tempo in-your-face impact play.
Scotland have improved so much and have quite a young side now that gets better year by year. I'm very happy with the backs (except Dan Parks, who surprisinglykicked unbelievably well against the English) We a fantastic back row, it's just our front row that seems to let us down.
I definitely think we can still win the championship and we will beat Wales at the weekend.
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Post 84 I don't think the english do think that you only care about beating us! Rather that it is mentioned in many posts from the other nations.
I hope that England do well just to make all this anti english rubbish worth it.
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To DEXI
The fact that you think Ireland is a british neighbour says it all really. you are a fine example of the arrogance talked about above bred not from winning but from a colonial attitude (the last important match you won was 4 years ago in Sydney the following 6N you lost to ireland and france).
England has a population of 50million and has oodles of money compared to the celtic unions and the fact you invented the great game - that is why we enjoy beating you not because of you purple patch.
Anyway I am really pleased for Jonny W he is a great sportsman in every sense and i think the European game is better for his presence. But he does show the reliance on one player that I hope Ireland don't suffer from if BOD can't play.
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What sad lives people must lead when their only raison d'etre is to beat another country at sport. Thankfully the Welsh players aren't as one-eyed as their supporters and will be concentrating on the next match rather than the one at the end of the Championship.
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Gareth jenkins has shot himself in the foot by picking Jones as his captain. Jones is a curate's egg of a player and although he had got quicker when he was in France he misread the situation against Ireland in the first minute. Unforgiveable. Jenkins is ignoring the talents of Hook and Henson who will add to the fluidity of the Welsh team. There is no defence against superior speed.
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Are there any rugby blogs out there? This seems to have been hijacked by an unpleasant tone of national bashing.
I watched the game in a very dull bar in Vienna, without commentary or other supporters.
I would have been delighted to have some biased Brian Moore or Jonthon Davies commentary - or even a big group of "arrogant" English fans.
The corresponding weekend last year I had the good fortune to be in an English pub on Lanzarote. (HQ for Lanzarote Rugby Club!).
I was the only Irishman in the bar - and watched the game with some decent Welsh supporters, and the English expats who mostly make up the local team.
There was rivalry as England thumped Wales, and then Ireland just squeezed past Italy. I took some serious stick - but by the end of the day I had made new friends and was quite drunk on beer from the sweep.
This is my idea of supporting rugby.
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Why no comment on the Irish Scrum? For weeks now, since the Leicester/Munster game, I have been reading and hearing about the weakness of the Irish front row, and how every other team would target them, the 'achilles heel'of the team.
And what happened? They held firm, they wheeled on Welsh put in, they pressurised. Well done and Bravo to Hayes, Horan and Best. I do hope that Flannery will start next Sunday, as his throwing is immeasurably better than Best's.
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Sensible words Mac Eddey (106). I looked at the England v Scotland Blog and saw rugby discussed with no comments or insults levelled at any third party countries.
I decided to view the Wales V Ireland Blog for a laugh, and wasn't dissapointed, Narrow minded anti English bigotry at every opportunity. If I was Welsh (or Irish in one or two cases) I would be embarrased, as I'm sure many are. The most amusing thing is the diatribe levelled at a country not even involved in the subject of the Blog!
England Arrogant they chant! Small minded Xenaphobia, thats arrogance.
Apologies to the decent Welsh people reading this, but to the rest, get a life, get educated, or do us all a favour and get independence.
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To Liam,
Are you camparing BOD with JW?
BOD is a world class outside centre but as a captain his descision making is very questionable. Having met him I have to say he is gentleman and an absolute credit to sport full stop.
However he cannot be compared to JW, who does have weaknesses but they are weaknesses that most other players would love to have. Also remember the no 10 is probably the most important position in the team. The outside centre is....an outside centre.
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To Liam,
Are you camparing BOD with JW?
BOD is a world class outside centre but as a captain his descision making is very questionable. Having met him I have to say he is gentleman and an absolute credit to sport full stop.
However he cannot be compared to JW, who does have weaknesses but they are weaknesses that most other players would love to have. Also remember the no 10 is probably the most important position in the team. The outside centre is....an outside centre.
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Rugby's a game pass it on...
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wales have every reason to be proud. i have no doubt they'll beat the old enemy even if the english manage to keep that delicate piece of precision engineering called wilkinson fit. they'll give the french a run for their money too. maybe the welsh rfu should consider reinstating their international A side in order to blood some of these talented kids they have, especially their back three. facing down the high ball under pressure from the irish backs and back row isn't exctly a cake walk on your international debut.
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Seeing as the rugby itself is second fiddle to notions of nation here, let's have a look at the celtic/ non-celtic thing. One could be forgiven for thinking that Hereford is a frontier post for the pure Anglo-Saxons who haven't yet worked out how to capture Hay-on-Wye. There's a whole lot of celtic blood coursing through the veins of many an English man or woman and vice versa (my surname may be evidence of that).
As for the natural arrogance of the English, yes there is a problem. They didn't take over so many countries around the world without a little native arrogance. The English, especially the mostly anglocentric 'British' media, have worked hard at providing fodder for those who wish to level that accusation. The other side of the coin is the hysterical self-flaggelation when things go wrong, i.e. the whole of England is going down the tubes because of the Ashes fiasco, Beckham public enemy no.1 after the 98 world cup etc. So it's either 'Rule Brittania' or 'let's hang the team'.
In those countries which were colonised by the English, and in which slighly naughty things were done by English forces and settlers, it is natural, in the absence of any genuine remorse for the pain inflicted, for natives to avoid feelings of sheer joy when England erupts in victory.
Oh yes, the rugby. I always feel queasy when some of my fellow countrymen forget about Murphy's Law and start planning the celebrations before the tournament begins. We never wear the favourites tag well, and I feel the wheels may come off early just like 2005. Sunday was not a good performance but it was a great escape. It won't work against France or England.
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Anyway, Welsh silence is so much nicer to hear than Swing Low! Allows Jonny and co to reflect on their victory in peace
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The comments that refer to Ireland "grinding out a rsult" are a little wide of the mark. There was plenty of Irish brilliance on display on saturday , 3 tries for and 0 against and on 3 other ocassions Wales were only a whisker from conceding a try.!
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The comments that refer to Ireland "grinding out a rsult" are a little wide of the mark. There was plenty of Irish brilliance on display on saturday , 3 tries for and 0 against and on 3 other ocassions Wales were only a whisker from conceding a try.!
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In response to Bill's comment that the Irish are and always have been 'rubbish'....
Brian O'driscoll - Rubbish?
Gordon D'arcy - Rubbish?
Geordan Murphy - Rubbish?
Ronan O'gara - Rubbish?
Shane Horgan - Rubbish?
Paul O'connell - Rubbish?
Donnacha O'Callaghan - Rubbish?
Jerry Flannery - Rubbish?
Dennis Leamey - Rubbish?
David Wallace - Rubbish?
In fact any of the 8 Irish back row who have rotated into the side over the last 6 months.... RUBBISH?
The sad fact is that there is not a single person in the English team who would displace any one of these!
Wilko... I hear some say... but he performed against a woeful Scotland... how would he last up against some of the best 7s in the world with Betsen of France, Wallace of Ireland bearing down upon him... different story i fear!
I think you have stumbled into the wrong page my friend and are infact talking about football! In football/soccer... where I will happily concede that the Irish are terrible.
If you know absolutely nothing about Rugby, it is probably best you do not place a comment on this page! This is one of the most talented sides that the northern hemisphere has ever seen and every rugby player and pundit alike regardless of where they come from will concede this fact.
As a London Born Irish man now living in Warsaw (where they also enjoy seeing England lose in any sport) but having spent the last 23 years of my life in England... I am far from anti English... In fact in the last football world cup I even supported them as Ireland were not there and I have never seen a more Irish looking person than wayne rooney... not to mention the name!
as far as I am concerned, you will have trouble finding a more genuine and trustworthy person than an englishman!
However, there is something about the way the English play rugby that is detestable, the game they invented and the way the media explode after a win against lets face it...weak opposition... brainwashing the entire nation into believing that they truly are the greatest nation to ever walk the face of the planet!
I have no doubt that it is bourne out of the playing fields of England's Public schools where arrogance and over confidence is a way of life and this carries through to the International stage!
sadly for England... the rest of the Rugby world has improved greatly from 2003 where they have not... so even bringing half of the world cup winning squad out of retirement and employing Ireland's former coach will not suffice... the wheels will come off that 'sweet chariot' once again
I fear!!
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Hello all
Plenty of interesting and different comments.
Firstly, I totally agree that Ireland were the better team against Wales - their experience helped get them through it.
As for any anti-English bias, I was just attempting to give a flavour of what was going on in Cardiff on Sunday night.
England fans are always more than welcome in the Welsh capital, and usually seem to have a good time.
But you won't find too many Welsh fans singing 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' yet plenty were belting out 'The Fields of Athenry'.
Funnily enough, my English friends were having a right go at me at the weekend, what with Wilkinson's return and talking about their 'winning team'.
My mate Neil from Oxford said of the England forwards: "Give it to the fat boys, stick it up their jumpers and we'll beat Wales every time."
He's a football fan and tells me he doesn't really care about any rugby match apart from Wales v England.
Friendly rivalry makes the Six Nations, and helps to make it such a great tournament.
All the best
Sean
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An unbiased view (I hope) of the Cardiff game and I was there, from an Englishman.
For 3/4 of the game there was nothing in it and yes the Irish did grind out a result no doubt!
Wales's tackling was poor and that was the main reason Ireland made ground with the ball in hand. On the other hand when Wales made ground it was through creating space with more flair and skill than Ireland.
good Irish defence kept the Welsh out.
Considering the understrength Welsh side, they can hold their heads up but the Irish 'Favorites' should be concerned.
If that was the no. 2 side in the world then there is hope for...everyone in the world cup!
However both have England at home and both can, and may, beat them but they will both have to play a hell of a lot better than they did on Saturday. The notoriously slow starting French will also be a much bigger hurdle.
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i have just read every blog on this site and it ammazed me how it could turn into something political rather than about the sport.any home team supporter wants any team except england to win.its always been that way.its the english who have the chip on their shoulder.as for the so called greatest come back ever of j wilks well iff you are to make a come back then why not against a team who were the weakest of the rest.i also heard last night on a radio station that jw is in the running for sports personality of the year.WHY.whats he done since the world cup?naff all and i cant see him doing much else.any way well done ireland and hard luck wales.it was the most entertaining match so far
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Re Post 121
Interesting, Sean, that you believe the current Irish side is 'one of the most talented sides the Northern Hemisphere has ever seen.' It's a bit of a surprise that it hasn't won something, then. If I made such an assertion about my team I would be undoubtedly be accused of arrogance. In truth it would actually be misplaced optimism so I'll give you the benfit of the same doubt! :-)
This Irish side has a few very good players and, in Gordon d'Arcy, one who could be truly great. However, being objective it lacks a front row, it lacks a decent scrumhalf, as long as Stringer plays, and O'Gara is too inconsistent - very good on his day but can be truly awful. Not the greatest tackler I've ever seen in a No 10 shirt, either.
I've long been a huge fan of Geordan Murphy but if one was being truly sensible then one would have to say he's a flawed genius - again prone to errors but capable of producing such flashes of brilliance that would light up any team.
Second Row and Back Row look good and solid.
It may smack of heresy but I'm less impressed by O'Driscoll lately. Yes, he is capable of great things but a few times recently he looks as if he's lost something, motivation, concentration, perhaps even a bit of pace. I don't know, but not quite the player I remember. It could just be that he's slipped a tad from his own high standards and will bounce back. I hope so.
Despite all that and despite being a 'Celtic' Cornishman, I wish Ireland well. When they play to the top of their form they can be very good to watch.(As can Wales) Just don't delude yourself that they are currently a match for the All Blacks.
We've only seen one round of matches so far and none of them was particularly indicative of the best the six teams have to offer. Let's wait and see how the tournament develops before overhypeing anyone. As I said in earlier post, all the Northern Hemisphere teams have a huge amount of work to do if the World Cup is not make painful viewing. The NZ second team would probably beat anything any of us Northeners currently have to offer, even though it pains me to admit it. Realistically, France with home advantage have the best chance but they will need to turn up for every game, something they haven't done in the previous competitions.
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Ireland are a good side but definitely not no2 in the world. Come the World cup it will be NZ,Australia, France, Sth Africa or outsiders England.
Don't write off Ashton's team. If he gets them focussed and has luck with injuries then England could be a clever bet at long odds.
Neither Ireland or Wales have the strength in the front 5, especially the front row to win.
Jonny might be back? but he's still number 2 to Carter.
What odds on England for the slam? If they win in Ireland then Wales needs to prepare for a painful afternoon!
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Bill, effort not resulting in points is wasted effort. The score board reflects points scored not effort expended. Was it Martin Johnson who said 'the best team are the team with the most points on the board'.
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Bill, effort not resulting in points is wasted effort. The score board reflects points scored not effort expended. Was it Martin Johnson who said 'the best team are the team with the most points on the board'.
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I think that stephen jones should be replaced by james hook or ceri sweeney and gavin henson to move to centre or fly half as i think it is his best position. Gav should play himself into form, and as for hal luscombe he just isnt fast enough to play on the wing and all he does is run into contact. Kevin morgan had a great game but he shouldnt of had passed it to the prop who also just ran into contact. I also think If lee byrn is fit he should play on the wing because of kevin morgans great game. Chris czekaj had a great game considering he was put under so much pressure and that should of beeen a try when he was taken out early.
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I think the opening weekend was good for the six nations. I am welsh, but suprise suprise am glad that JW is back for England...always want to pit yourself against the best, and he is. but the forwards played out of their skin on sat against an abysmal, sorry, scottish team. the whole team seems to have a new lease of life under ashton, hope it continues.
with regards to the wales vs ireland match, well done to the irish who took their chances, were more clinical, had a bit of luck [o'driscoll holding back kevin morgan in the first 45secs preventing him from making a possible try saving tackle on the irish hooker; easterby's tackle on czjek]and defended brilliantly...well done though!!!
wales will regroup and hopefully beat scotland...
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I think the opening weekend was good for the six nations. I am welsh, but suprise suprise am glad that JW is back for England...always want to pit yourself against the best, and he is. but the forwards played out of their skin on sat against an abysmal, sorry, scottish team. the whole team seems to have a new lease of life under ashton, hope it continues.
with regards to the wales vs ireland match, well done to the irish who took their chances, were more clinical, had a bit of luck [o'driscoll holding back kevin morgan in the first 45secs preventing him from making a possible try saving tackle on the irish hooker; easterby's tackle on czjek]and defended brilliantly...well done though!!!
wales will regroup and hopefully beat scotland...
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I have just read that england have called up a player who only a week ago was attending a disciplinary hearing. Sounds familiar....
...however, whereas Gareth Thomas gets four weeks for responding to extreme insults from an idiot in the crowd by making an obscene gesture, the english player gets off without any further punishment for verbally abusing a match official!!!
Now I don't know if it's just me but the latter seems a much more serious offence, or at best on a par.
Seems some things never change.
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Wow, couldn鈥檛 get near the blog today as I had to make a trip to London 鈥 and it looks like it鈥檚 remarkable I made it out of England without getting lynched!
The suggestion out there seems to be I鈥檓 trying to stir some sort of playground nationalistic rivalry. The fact is that those rivalries exist in the Six Nations 鈥 they are what make the tournament so great. But the rivalries are generally contained in a friendly context, and a warm welcome is extended in each of the capitals to each of the nations 鈥 at least in my experience.
As to England 鈥 now I鈥檓 going to be treading on egg-shells again! It鈥檚 a simple fact that every other country in the tournament wants to beat England more than any other team, and the vast majority of Welsh fans will be supporting Ireland against England, as many made clear on Sunday night. I鈥檇 say that English fans can take that as a compliment to their strength over the years.
The majority of my English friends (I do have some, it may surprise you!) I met in university. I started university in 1991, and if you study Wales鈥 record against the men in white since then 鈥 well, it isn鈥檛 very good! There鈥檚 an annual round of mickey-taking, email jokes etc in the build-up to every Wales-England game. I鈥檓 generally more vociferous in the build-up to the match than in the aftermath of another hammering! But it鈥檚 all part of the fun, and I would consider it bad form if I wasn鈥檛 man enough to go for a drink with my English friends after a defeat, no matter what stick they give me.
Well, that鈥檚 where I鈥檓 coming from鈥 I know that defeating England shouldn鈥檛 be Wales鈥 ultimate ambition. But I don鈥檛 think that desperately wanting a win over our oldest rivals makes me a backward cave dweller!
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Earlier comments about the bias of commentators and the arrogance of 70s welsh rugby remind me of 1977 wales v ireland. Geoff wheel and willie duggan were sent off early but the welsh tv commentator on the feed 大象传媒 N Ireland was taking didn't notice the irishman's departure and spent the rest of the game crowing as the '14' welshmen stuffed us '15' irishmen by the then customary 30 points or so.
So, with memories like that, you will perhaps forgive my slow, quiet smile as i read about unawarded penalty tries et al.
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Concurring with Ricky (no. 132), I would like to see Wales with their top line-up when England visit. I would be much happier. Firstly, although I am an England fan, I am above all, a Rugby fan. 2005 may not have been English Rugby's golden age, but I enjoyed watching the Welsh's expansive style.
I enjoy watching New Zealand's form of total rugby. They're good in every area. Although I want England to beat them, when they play well, it is a wonder to see.
I want to see how well Lewsey and Robinson bode against Williams, Jones or Thomas. With all due respect to Czekaj and Luscombe, they're not the same calibre of player, although Czekaj's performance shows promise.
Still, I hope Wales can put out a full team against England almost as much as I hope the English can.
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Using Celtic rivalry as the reason for being "anti-English" is inexplainable, considering the English captain is Cornish, a celtic region i believe
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Two things:
1) If it was England flinging the ball around aimlessly and failing to score tries in the process there'd be criticism from all quarters about lack of flair, basic skills, ability, desperation, etc, etc. When Wales do it its seen as some sort of sign of genius harking back to their long-haired, skinny legged hay days of the 70s.
Jonathan Davies and chums' salavating over what in truth was some pretty ordinary rugby was difficult to accept on Sunday.
2) A truth has been stated. All the other teams in the Six Nations do want to beat England more than anyone else. That fact makes every Grand Slam by the English more valuable and earned than any by any other side, and puts Wales' most recent slam where it belongs; down with the least impressive in the history of the five or six nations. A year when both France and England were far from their best, in other words an open goal for any of the other sides in the comp.
Saw nothing at the weekend that any of the six nations sides' are on the march to world cup glory.
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I an England fan but I must admit I do love watching Wales play. They have a never say die attitude and I see them as a not quite as quick or strong New Zealand because of their flair and breath taking counter attacks. The best game of rugby i've seen was Wales NZ after the World Cup and it ended 25-26 to NZ but the pace of the game made it a joy for anyone to watch. I think if they can produce the flair, which they did at times against Ireland, they could do very well this year. I'm going to Cardiff to watch Wales vs England but I must say I'm at bit worried!
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Lee...is your last name 'Stereotype' because that is what you just trotted out.
Firstly what 'aimless' ball throwing was there? There were some beautiful phases of play, punctuated with some 'bambi on ice' slipping and sliding and some forward passes.
As for the 'least impressive' six nations, well what can I say. If you werent even up to beating such a poor Welsh squad that day then I'd say that bodes worse for you wouldnt you say.
Its Englishmen like you that give your peers a bad name.
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Sadly, I feel it almost inconceivable that JW will be in the England team when it visits Cardiff. He is too brave for his own good, and will surely be crocked again in one of the next 3 matches.
For me Wales were beaten by experience v Ire, but they will gain from it....whereas Eng have yet to have a real test, and will not until the Ireland match. I fancy Wales to beat Scotland by 30 points on Sat, and go on to win the other 2 away matches....it's who you play that counts...which is why Ireland feel they played badly in Cardiff. Wales of course are not the finished article, but they can get there.
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When are the celtic nations going to get a life and stop thinking that their season can be " saved " by beating England one day the Welsh and Scots will surprise us and actually support England if they do better than their teams in the World Cup. But I do not think I will ever see that. Come on get a life.
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I am Irish but living in London. I would not agree that most English rugby fans are arrogant. Some of them are but most are not.
6 nations fans should reserve their real hatred for southern hemisphere teams and their fans! Kiwi, Saffy and Aussie rugby fans are the most unbearable sports fans on the planet. They are incredibly arrogant, terrible losers and terrible winners. I hope Ireland win the world cup but if they don't I will be cheering for anyone but the ABs (how funny would it be to see them crash and burn again?), the Saffies and the Aussies (in that order)!
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I agree about the australian arrogance. I used to work in a bar at the time with a few aussie staff, and even though I was a wales fan I defended england and said they could win. The ozzies constantly said they were going to win, which was their right obviously. However they kept going on and on about it, wearing australia shirts every day and one of them even got a punter kicked out for wearing an england shirt (he claimed the bloke had threatened him when he hadnt, then boasted afterwards about making it up). I was a bit shocked as they seemed nice blokes before this, and after they lost every australian rugby reference dissapeared, and they kept muttering about cheating poms, although not how england had actually cheated. I left shortly afterwards as I managed to get a proper job.
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Its nice to hear the usual Welsh drivel about losing to Ireland. Yer we dont mind as long as we beat England. This is the mindset which is holding back a quite promising Welsh side. They should be looking to beat everyone(Im sure the players feel a bit differently than the public) not just the Invaders from across the Border. The last few years have seen a massive improvement in the Welsh side and I'm sure they have the right man in Gareth jenkins to mould the side into a extremely competitive unit. The people of Wales need to believe that their team has the potential to beat everyone not just England then you might bring back Silverwear not just Saucespans.
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Its so short sighted that all these people harp on about beating England. If its such a huge thing for Ireland, Wales and Scotland to beat England then perhaps you can forgive some England fans for being a little bit over the top when we have trounced these teams on a fairly regular basis over the last decade. I genuinely believe that a lot of the so called arrogance on the part of English fans is simply them resorting to fighting fire with fire - I watched the England - Scotland game with some Welsh fans around and they could not stop jeering every time England made a mistake and were constantly criticising. When we all watched the Wales game the following day we just enjoyed the rugby and didn't feel the need to spit vitriol. It seems to be OK to be anti-English, but when the sentiment is reversed we become arrogant.
I also think this is potentially what is holding some teams (particularly Ireland and Wales) back. In the same way that I think the World Cup has really distorted national teams' priorities I also think that if so much is put on beating one team that can only have a negative effect. Its such a 'small-man' syndrome - these teams need to stop thinking of themselves as small teams and get the mentality that they are on the same level as England and other big boys(regardless of the disparity in resources)and not make such a big deal of beating a team that is simply not what it was four years ago. To me its why Ireland will not beat the All Blacks and will fail to defeat an Aussie or French team playing to its fullest abilities.
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Moose, please don't tar everyone in Wales with the same brush. Likewise we in Wales won't assume every englishman is an arrogant idiot who after one win in God knows how many, thinks his side are on course for World Cup glory.
And didn't Wales win some silverware in 2005??
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Responding to Post 129
Sean: By and large the English understand the consequences of being the largest nation on these islands: it is inevitable that the smaller nations will want to beat us most and tend to support eachother against us. No problem. Human nature.
It's when it slips from supporting your team, or your second/third/fourth favourite team into hating that problems occur.
I'll support any home nation against France, but France against the Southern Hemisphere.
But I absolutely hate the Aussies. (Ooops!)
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I wonder if part of the problem is that the English are supposed to be reserved and stiff-upper-lippish and after a pretty comfortable win concede their team might not do unbadly...
...when in fact the English are highly emotional and the reserve is a very thin surface skim?
So when we all go WOOHOO! when our team performs so much better than it has recently, and so much better than we feared it might...
...the dislocation between what our neighbours expect to see, and what they do see, is interpreted as arrogance?
As to the newspapers: "England play quite well," won't grab the eye. "England World Cup contenders?" is wildly overstating it, but DOES grab the eye and sell copy. Sad but true.
But sometimes we just have to hold up our hands and say "arrogant as charged" - Mr William Carling!
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Personally I'm quite glad to see the Welsh lose - indeed they were very lucky not finish with the wooden spoon last year (Italy came within a whisker of beating the Scots) after being extremely lucky the year before I know England have been bad but not that bad eh?
Out if interest my order of preference - England, Ireland, France, Scotland, Italy, New Zealand all other teams then joint last South Africa and Wales.
Wales - wooden spoon and every two years hereafter............
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Chopper (post 145),
I don't think you can call the Welsh lucky in 2005. They beat came back from a half-time deficit against France in Paris. They did it with scintillating Rugby. Any side in the world would be proud of that and it was not luck.
You say they were lucky but that isn't backed up by the fact. I was hugely disappointed with England's opening loss. Though I watched in horror as England lost to France and Ireland, with dismal performances, I marvelled at the Welsh. They won because they were the best team that year. There wasn't a match where you could say they played the poorer rugby. Their backline was fantastic and their forwards, changing the recent Welsh traditions at the time, stood up at set pieces, in the tight and in the loose, Gethin Jenkins' charge down and try a fine example.
Whatever you say about the Welsh, they had no more luck than any other team in 2005 and earned their Grand Slam bragging rights.
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Great game.Good to see the Irish came to attack not to spoil.Jenkins
has to change his 10 if he wants to play his high tempo game.Jones stands way back and plods slowly onto the pass pushing his line sideways.Absolutely critical kicks
did not find touch.The Irish found touch all afternoon.The charge down said it all.Instead of executing quickly he plodded two paces as though he had been awarded a free kick.A schoolboy mistake.Hook has to be 10 and Henson restored to 12.He's
a footballer.Without Williams we have no creative threat.We need footballers.This season will be a whitewash.Phil Davies is light years better than Jenkins.
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Stopped reading after about 30 comments.
English fans should take it as a compliment that everyone wants to beat them. The fact is that England and France have been benchmarks in Northern hemisphere rugby for decades. If you beat either or both of these teams, then that invariably means you will win the 6 nations.
There is a far greater history between England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (than with France) - a history that has not always been pleasant.
All this, coupled with an English press that is so full of jingoism and back slapping and supporters who, legitimately or otherwise, feel they have a right to win, creates a desire to topple the big guy. We don't get L'Equipe over here... but we get Sky News.
Wales, Scotland and Ireland will always want to beat England and will probably find losing to eachother more palatable. It is not anti-Englishness as such, it is just human nature. In many ways England is to us what Germany is to England in football - the old foe that more often than not gets the better of us.
All that said, I look forward to welcoming the English to Dublin where we can laugh and cry about it all after the game (we'll be laughing and they'll be crying, hopefully)... and the rivalry will continue on and we can start learning the South African national anthem for the world cup. Just kidding. Learned it already.
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back in 1987 Wales beat England in the RWC quarter finals (terrible game) then got stuffef in the semis by the ABs. The official response to that was "we'll just go back to beating England". Oh how we laughed, but less and less as Wales entered its most dismal era for....yonks anyway. Point is, while we still DO enjoy giving the Saes a beating we really want more quality, dazzle and exhilaration from a Wales team firing on all cylinders. Do that and the results come as well. Nobody cried for the Scots at Murrayfield 2 years ago, eh?
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Blimey!
Its taken me a long while to read through all these comments and the good part of of a decent bottle of red wine!
One important note with this glorious game that we all love is that though we indulge in lively banter against our rivals ( mostly the English!) the rough stuff is mostly enclosed on the pitch and does not spill onto our terraces. Italy please note!
Much of what makes the game great is the depth of feeling and the ability to recgonise players on the opposite team that had a good match.
Ok.... I'm an England Basher! I'm an ex pat that has 1 Irish and 2 English children and one of which has a surname Scott! (that covers the home nations!!!)
Im glad of the rivalry, it make us a stronger family.
But enough of that!
The matches over the weekend were predictable until the Wales V Ireland match.
A good game of rugby football!
Nobody likes foregone conclusions!
NOW, Lets look forward to this forthcoming weekend with some more competitive matches.
I look forward to reading all the comments this time next week, regardless of the results.
Kind Regards to all
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Jonathan Davies, why are you such a biased commentator?
I always thought that one of the traits of being a bbc commentator is to remain impartial, Wales have been cheating, playing dirty tricks, and all you say is "that's the game of rugby".
When i watch the game and you are commentating i turn the volume off.
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Can I ask why there have been no player raings for the SCotland-Wales match this weekend when there have been ratings for the English and Irish games. Are Scotland & Wales not important enough to get ratings in their own right?
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its amazing the number of people who complain about johnathan davies' commentating. im in uni and i live with 2 (very) english housemates and even they love to listen to johnathan commentating. he is nowhere near as biased as brian moore! and eddie butler is attrocious, some1 tell that man to shut up or learn the players names and stats! even when they appear on the screen they're still wrong, all the time. Johnathan has always got a funny quip ie "aww he took that right on the swede" or "charvo's got a clip there" i think u kno wat im talkin about!
as for english arrogance i think they can afford to be a bit when they've been in the top 3 for as long as i can remember (even in the top 2), as have the french. what i don't like is this new scottish arrogance! before the 6 nations i think it was the scottish coach who claimed "Scotland can win the Triple Crown". Can you fuck. Scotland are the worst of the 4 and were lucky to beat wales. the amount of ball they had and yet they still couldn't score a try! patterson couldn't run it in; stephen jones had time to take a poo, whipe his arse then catch him up AND stop him short. I remember a few years ago my local youth team could have beaten Scotland, which shows how great they are! 3 average players who would struggle to get into any of the other 3 bigger teams' starting line-ups.
Chris Czekaj needs to be dropped, every time he goes into a tackle u kno he's goin to be turned over, and he doesn't hit them with much force. i kno hes a quick lad but aled brew certainly showed against ireland he's a lot more physical and hes pretty quick. even hal luscombe (who i dont rate) is a hell of a lot better than him! At least they have dropped Michael Owen, i think his footballing namesake could carry the ball better, he has the strength of a limbless child!
RANT OVER!
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