How Ireland stood tall
- 26 Feb 07, 09:42 AM
Belfast 鈥 Wow. What a beautiful day Sunday was. It was only after I had finished my weekly jog around the green pastures of the Stormont Estate that I was able to take it all in. Like Saturday, it needed a sharp intake of breath.
I have been attending international matches since 1961, but none have matched the power, passion and emotion that emanated from
I had to pinch myself, to realise Ireland had stuffed England out of sight. Okay, okay it was a very poor England team, but there again, who cares...
Some say that it is only a game, but we all know that rugby is more than a game. It is an occasion whether you are in Edinburgh, Rome, Cardiff, Paris or London. But as any rugby follower of whatever hue will tell you there is
With the history of Ireland as a country and the GAA intrinsically linked, Saturday was always going to be an occasion dripping with a fair amount of soul searching. Irish history will always remain, but
Those expecting some trouble outside the ground were to be disappointed, particularly the lone television cameraman perched on a hydraulic crane at a nearby cark park opposite the Jones鈥檚 Road entrance to the stadium.
Then, for some, we had the main event. After Ireland President Mary McAleese鈥檚 eloquent gait enabled her to pass along the protoagonists with due haste, an eerie silence fell around the stadium as we awaited the national anthems.
WATCH THE HISTORIC ANTHEMS AT CROKE PARK
(; words to )
There was a worrying pregnant pause before laughter broke out in the crowd when the giant television screens showed Mrs McAleese scurrying back to her seat in the stands. Then the drum roll started.
I was surrounded by England fans in the lower Hogan Stand who proudly bellowed out the national anthem with a throaty roar. From where I was, the words echoed around the stadium with no interruptions, no cat-calls, no whistling. Perfect.
The noise was only bettered when was sung with such gusto the goalposts swayed in the windless atmosphere. My English neighbours stood ramrod straight acknowledging what they were hearing.
So on with the game. The reams of pre-match hype could not hold a candle to the match itself. Nobody could have written the script. Not even Hans Christian Andersen!
The game fairly crackled along and was very competitive鈥ntil the 25th minute when Ireland put the bulldog on a lead. Or to be honest, Paul O鈥機onnell shackled the visiting behemoth with the type of performance that had been dormant for the opening two games.
For one awful moment I thought O鈥機onnell was going to play another bit part when he failed to gather a high ball in the opening minutes.
But that moment of indecision just acted as a kick up the rear for the big Munsterman who for the rest of the game, tortured England at restarts, line-outs, rucks, mauls and with the odd gallop or two upfield.
He was simply immense. He has never played better in a green jersey, like his provincial colleague John Hayes.
Hayes had a phenomenal game. He was immense in the tight; never lifted O鈥機onnell higher, and was a stubborn defender at the post position. Both should now be wrapped in cotton wool and preserved for the World Cup!
But it would be unfair to just pick these two players out of a very dominant pack who all did their jobs to perfection. It was the platform to gouge out the victory from what was a very poor England outfit.
Their forwards were completely outclassed with Perry Freshwater and Magnus Lund pulled ashore early before the boat sank.
Phil Vickery did not inspire as a leader while I felt for Jonny Wilkinson, and Josh Lewsey who looked frustrated on the wing. Brian Ashton should now pick him at full-back, end of story.
The big midfield duo of Mike Tindall and Andy Farrell looked ill at ease in the flanker-like grasp of Brian O鈥橠riscoll and Gordon D鈥橝rcy. Farrell, in particular, looked very sluggish, and it is evident that
Debutant David Strettle did score a good try just in front of where I was standing. But my son, never shake a gloating fist at Shane Horgan.
Horgan, one of the many stars in the Irish side, got his own back when he jumped the highest to collect Ronan O鈥橤ara鈥檚 precision crossfield hoof for Ireland's game-defining try.
I was also impressed with the Irish backs who showed great skill in the very wet conditions. They were not afraid to toss the ball about and showed great confidence in their own ability, unlike their opposite numbers. Irish skills coach Brian McLaughlin must be a very happy camper.
And, of course, Ireland had who has now elevated himself to one of the best number 10s in the world. Due to the work of his forwards, he overshadowed his opposite number.
Eddie O鈥橲ullivan took quite a bit of stick when he left Geordan Murphy off the squad, but Girvan Dempsey repaid the coach in spades.
It must have been a gold-star performance by Ireland as the usually sombre and even-tempered O鈥橲ullivan traipsed on to the pitch with a smile as wide as the Grand Canal at the end.
So there you have it. Shades of 1973 when England skipper John Pullin famously said: 鈥淓ngland may not be a very good team, but at least we showed up鈥.
says it all 2007-style.
Wales 27-18 England
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I think every1's questions were answered. These blogs had really hyped up the game before hand and most of the english support were predicting a close game and Ireland could never beat england by more then a few points.
England were trully slaughtered by a much greater team, there anthem was respected but have to apologise for the hammwering their players took on that pitch, I fell sorry for them.
But thats what happens when a team talks themself up aswell as the media and the fans, I say the final whistle was like music to the english players ears.
I hope Now u will give the Irish the respect they trully deserve. It was obvius that result was going to happen and could even have been worse, if we were more clinical it could have been in the 60's.
I just pray the England can try and give france a game but they could get another hammering.
Thanks for turning up.
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Have to agree, I was over the moon with the Irish performance. Perhaps now, many England fans will realise that they are not on course to retain the WC as was mentioned by a few on previous blogs. Ireland pretty much showed how the game should be played & dominated all over the pitch. England looked slow & when their pack is not dominant they seem clueless out back. Once again, well done the Irish.
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i think the start of the game was superb it showed the passion which ireland had and england didn't, ireland completely dissered the win and should go on to win with those proformances, by far the best team in it at the moment
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This was an immense result for Ireland, regardless of the quality of opposition, one that will be talked about here for generations... To win a world cup though, you need a performance like that every time you take to the pitch.. If we can some how do that, then just maybe there will be even greater things to come this year for the boys in green.
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Who did Denis Hickey exchange shirts with after Saturdays encounter; pity they all didn't change shirts! I just think it would have been a nice gesture, given the historic nature of the event. The sponsor wins either way!!!
Tim
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First of all well done Ireland not least the fans who, despite all the pre-match anti-English dated xenophobia from the press (this blogger included!), behaved fantastically (no booing even for kickers, unlike the French v Wales). It really does send out a great message & beyond just rugby!
As an English fan you do get somewhat paranoid and fed-up that everyone lifts their game against us for historical reasons (not the fault of our generation) and one player in particular, Paul O'Connell. I don't think he's had anything other than a brilliant game against us in all our clashes. He really does look the complete deal when on form.
In fairness Ireland were always favourites, a very stable class line up against a team having to rebuild, but you played a very intelligent territorial game (unlike us) and your pack was awesome.
I do think the England team looked very jaded, no zip or spark about their game (except Strettle who we should have given as much ball to as possible but failed to 鈥 think he would have skinned Horgan given the space!). It's time for us to learn from Ireland and the SH and get central contracts, our players need rest before big internationals.
Good luck Ireland in the World Cup, you have great chance. Your team鈥檚 skill and your fans behaviour will have me routing for you as a neutral (after England of course!).
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You obviously have a very short memory, or you were not present at Ellis Park on 24th June 1995 when the springboks, representing the new South Africa beat the "unbeatable" All Blacks. I think that was much more significant in the history of rugby than Saturday's much-hyped event.
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the laughter for the prez was because she was captured on the screen kissing some dignitary or fellow 'royal box' type.
you get some knowledgable people who post on blogs, but also regretably some fools. those england fans who thought we had a decent chance in the world cup just because we beat scotland well belong in the latter camp. our chance is a pretty remote one. as an england fan i'm relying on happy memories of dublin and sydney in 03 to get me through - not much to shout about since then!
france/ireland world cup group game on 21/9 is looking like THE pivotal group game. losers probably play nz in the quarters, winners avoid the kiwis until the final!
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That performance by Ireland was simply breathtaking - to beat an England side (any England side for that matter) by 30 points is phenomenal. I just wish the Welsh boys could play half as good as they did.
Well done Ireland!
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Good game Ireland well done and not just on the game but the welcome you gave the English team. I doubt however many English fans thought we would retain the WC. England needed this test and it has shown us where we are going wrong and will allow us to make the necessary changes going forward.
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Wasn't Strettle's fist a response to Horgan's disgraceful use of the elbow?
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It was a great performance by the Irish. I think they have a great chance of getting to the final's in the World Cup. Shame to read some of the comments about the English team; from what I have read no-one has said England can win the World Cup, Ashton is one of the leading people trying to play down the media hype. 100% of the views I have heard or read about the Irish are of glowing praise, they are a great team and fantastic to watch. Shame some people can't get the chip off their shoulders.
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What an occasion! Well done to the Irish fans and team for being respectful of the National anthems etc. and demonstrating that sport can show the politicians a thing or two. As an English fan, only the result was a disappointment, we certainly didn't play well enough to get anything from the game. I still wish I could have been there on Saturday.
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while doom and gloom dominates the english national team this side need to make 5 changes namely catt rees white mears and robinson back and firmley put the scottish game out of their heads and get back to basics worsley grewcock and corry are not physical and too sluggish great players set standards these 3 need to up their game and the rest will respond i expect a different game v france they dont like players in your face england to win by 7 shannon/munster/irish supporter
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Its not so much that England didnt turn up (although this English team is lightyears behind the 2003 vintage), but rather that the pack which would have been recognised as very physical and strong, were absolutely obliterated by the Irish 8. Currently, the irish backrow is the 2nd best in the world without a doubt, superior to Bonnaire Chabal & co., let alone the english version.
To think that the game would have been much different had England played more to their ability is frankly a ridiculous statement given the Irish had another gear to step up to & the fact they were evidently cruising.
O'Gara is at the top of his game at the moment. As a positional kicker, he is as good if not better than Wilkinson at his best, his place kicking isnt too far behind & this year he has been able to get his backline moving more like contepomi.
O'Driscoll/Darcy v. Farrel/Tindall = Ferrari v. Lada
All the same.......keep the chin up!!
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As an Irishman I think my fellow countrymen and women are getting a little carried away with the game. It was a good Irish performance but the scoreline does flatter Ireland a little - last try especially.
Ireland have produced exceptional performances in the past, but history has showed that consistency has been the blight of Irish rugby. What is promising about the current team is that they seem to be producing consistent performances that comes only with confidence.
Give credit to England, they kept going to the end and had a bad day at the office. True, they have a few problem areas (e.g. lineouts) that they need to resolve but nothing as bad as the scoreline suggests.
Lastly, a lot of credit has (rightly) been given to the Irish fans for their beahviour, but I think we got to give the English fans and players a lot of credit also. The English fans contributed to the 'craic' at the game, and the English players made no excuses after the game, they were honest and humble enough to admit that they were beaten by the better team.
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Saturday was history in the making...Surreal. 4 years on the trot we've beaten them! To loose to THEM was unthinkable. Ireland, France and NZ are in a league of our own. Are you watching martin Johnson? EASY, EASY, EASY, EASY...EASY!!!
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Many congratulations to the Irish team. We were well and truly stuffed out of sight and the Irish played like they did in the Autumn. They are the strongest team in the NH when they play like that, but if I was Irish I would be fuming at them for letting a grand slam slip by as I don't think any team could have lived with them on Saturday.
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Well done Ireland on giving us a terrific game of Rubgy against a sadly lacklustre England Team.
But mostly, well done the 80,000 crowd for behaving in a way that does immense credit to the game as well as the two countries playing.
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I think Strettle's gloating fist was more to do with Horgan's elbow to his face earlier.
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Brian Ashton said it right, we were well and truly thumped by a vastly superior team. Even the all blacks didn't do that to us in the autumn.
Forget about England being poor, we were not allowed to play. I said it before the game, whoever wanted it more would win and Ireland wanted, how they really wanted it. They combined pure desire with skill and tactical nous. Well done!
Never mind the arrogance of the English. I think some of the S. Hemi arrogance has had a good kicking. Especially those who think that if England don't play well who, from the the Northern Hemisphere, could challenge NZ etc. If you show that kind of form in the World Cup you will be a match for anyone and many will struggle to be a match for you.
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Strettle had a baptism of fire on Saturday. I think he learned never to stand in the way of Shane Horgan again. There was nothing illegal about what Horgan did. Strettle was cynically impeding a player running through and deserved everything he got. Having said that he was probably the only English player who could hold his head up high after this game.
Jonny Wilkinson was very disappointing. His kicking from hand was terrible, missed a few tackles and created very little in midfield. England learned that they need a lot more than just Jonny for the WC and beyond. People tend to forget just how strong the English pack used to be. It was them who gave Jonny his platform to work his magic in the 2003 WC - although Jonny tended to get the headlines. Rugby is a team game and no one player, however great can carry a team by themselves.
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There is no doubt that ireland did play very well, but there overzealous celebrations show that ireland are simply not comfortable winners consistently. Despite being an avid england fan i can accept that this was a game that ireland should never have lost. The problem for ireland is that when will they actually win something?? world cup, grand slam??/
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Shane Horgan found himself in a position whereby an englih player (strettle) deliberately stood in front of him, if you watch the replay of this incident then you will see that horgans elbow hit strettle on the chest, this was simply an introduction to the rules of rugby. Professional fouls should always be punished, he simply wont do it again!!!
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GO THE GREEN!!!!
You make us proud to wear the shamrock shirt.
Simply awesome result what a fantastic match!!! England did'nt stand a chance, the mighty green army were a force not to be messed with!!!
Go Neri lads for the next match!!!
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Can anyone explain why with such a "united Irish team" do they need two anthems. Could someone explain why some sing one and not the other.
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I think if I was Mr Strettle I would concentrate on "developing" his undoubted talent rather than waving politely at a true giant.
Well done Ireland. we are all proud of you. Now keep it going!
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The whole weekend went someway to asuaging doubts about all the Northern Hemisphere teams ability to pass the pill or have a game of rugby that was not boring. It was fantastic and in the nick of time for a tournament dying of stagnation.
I do wish Ireland and Wales would come to the party when they were not so backs to wall or rebounding. My mother land Wales would have beaten the Scots with either of their other performances. Ireland seem motivated by a need to right grievences and have tossed away a grand slam - ditto last year against a poor French side reeling from an early loss to Scotland. Beating England is increasingly meaningless and surprisingly not an end in itself to anyone rational.
Then again even France has people like Betsen who said he felt England getting hammered was a bad thing for France... Seriously where does that weak mentality come from? Can you imagine any other sport or Aussie or All Black team even thinking such obvious nonsense. That team has been shown to be rubbish now we're worried!!! Doh. Talk yourself to defeat why don't you.
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Great day , great atmosphere , great result and most of all good craic .
Just one point to R Clark when a ball is chipped over your defense ! you don't step into the path of the attacker ( Blatant penalty ) or otherwise you get dumped like strettle , he Knew what he was doing and got what he expected , hence why no English players complained.
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I have to question R Clarks comment. Strettle, who showed he has talent, but was denied the opportunity to use it as the ball didn't reach him often enough, should have moved out of the way instead of just looking at an oncoming Horgan.
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Danny Grewcock is an idiot! I'm sick of him getting sin binned at crucial times in matches due to moments of madness, same with Julian White, they can't control themselves and continually leave England on the back foot, despite this Irelands forwards outclassed ours hugely and you can point the finger at Farrell all you want but he did nothing wrong, it was all a poor pefromance by the forwards, Tom Rees looked much better than Lund when he came on, Deacon was annoymous, Grewcock can't carry shopping let alone crash ball!!! We are a long way away from being a good side up front, as the Italians showed the week previous.
The irish were more tenatious and quicker to get to the break downs which continually cost England, the lineout was an absolute mess, with Ireland taking the credit for this but we lacked any ability to change our own fate in this area. No more Danny Grewcock please!!!! Anyone but!! And yes Horgan did smash Strettle in the face for absoultly no reason and should have had a yellow card, although this would not have affected the outcome of the game.
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Need to sort out the team.
Farrell as many have said has not proven himself to play at the heighest level.
Grewcock needs to sort his discipline.
The team is generally to inexperiences.
For France game
15 - Lewsey
14 - Cueto
13 - Noon
12 - Tindall
11 - Robinson
10 - Wilkinson
9 - Ellis
8 - Corry
7 - Lund
6 - Worsley
5 - Grewcock
4 - Deacon
3 - Vickery
2 - Chuter
1 - White
Thoughts?
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Ireland showed a level of sportsmanship, skill and passion that made me (an Englishman) quite envious. All the best in the World Cup. Without writing off England's chances, I get the impression that Ireland will probably be the Northern Hemisphere's only hope against the All Blacks / Wallabies.
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Never seen a team as passionate as the Irish were on Saturday. As many people have commented, a lot of teams do lift their games against England, with this been a prime examle. I do however feel, It is impossible to play at that intensity every week, and it will be interesting to see if there is a lul against the Scots. Great to see some of the Irish players fulfilling there potential and as an englishman i feel this can only be good for the northern hemisphere game, and dare i say it the next lions tour!!!!!
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Bit strange to say Wales would have beaten Scotland with one of their other performances, it's not theatre, there is no script, you turn up and play on the day and normally the better team wins, was there some obscure reason Wales lost? Or is it just, that however unpalatable the truth is, Wales were simply completely outplayed?
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So, the only thing that matters is winning a WC or Grand slam? Is the Triple Crown not a trophy? A Championship?
England won the WC in 2003? What have they done lately?
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"Wasn't Strettle's fist a response to Horgan's disgraceful use of the elblow"
What are you takling about, Strettle tried to obstruct Horgan, and got what he deserved. He wasn't injured, it might have hurt for a minute or two, but he learned lesson. Horgan is a very physical player but not a dirty one (unlike me). Overall it was a tought but fair game just what Rugby is supposed to be about.
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England were wll beaten, but to the people talking about the Horgan Elbow on Strettle, go back and watch the tape. Strettle stood still, he didn't 'blatantly obstruct'. It was up to Horgan to run around him, obstruction is when you move in to the way of another player, STrettle didn't he stayed were he was, then Horgan smacked him in the face, not chest, with his elbow, it should have been a penalty. As it should have been a penalty when Morgan was taken out in the air, like the penalty awarded against Lund for a similar incident. ENgalnd were well beaten, but please try to view the incidents with out your green coloured specs!
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Nice one Ireland. By far the better team and roundly deserved win.
On the Horgan/Strettle incident, as a player you're completely allowed to stand your ground in those situations so what Strettle did was fine. It wasn't dangerous anyway and Strettle is the kind of lad who can take a few lumps despite his size.
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Post 22. You are quite simply wrong. And if indeed it was a "professional foul" by Strettle(which it wasn't)it is not any players role to punish it. What does need to be punished, without exception at all levels of the game is outright gratuitous violence.
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Ok. After all the hype from home and abroad lets calm down and take a reality check.Ireland comprehensively beat a very poor English team of cumbersome forwards and sluggish midfield backs.If we are to challenge for the six nations championship and the forthcoming world cup, then that is the sort of thing that has to be done.It will now have to be done without the fabulous croker park effect to prove we are real contenders for the Webb Ellis trophy.There is no question of the superb influence that O'Sullivan has shrouded his Irish squad with, but the question that has lingered from the begining relates to his bench and beyond.Yes a number of theoretical quality players have emerged but test game time has not, for enough of them.O'Sullivan must now show real confidence and start providing these players with time to settle into test rugby and grow into the undoubted understanding that his first choice members have forged.Its not an easy decision to make to alter a good team ,but if we aspire to challenging the very best,ie.The All Blacks, then cover of proven quality,not just probable, must be found.We cannot trust to luck that the mighty John Hayes will go on for ever or that O'Gara, Stringer,O'Driscoll,D'arcy Horagan,O'Connell will survive from now until the final of the world.Now there's confidence for you! Come on Eddie, show the same, and do what must be done.
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Awesome stuff from Ireland. The very best of luck for the World Cup. I would LOVE you to win it. I'd like to think we could do France for you next week too, but I'm not hopeful.
I have to say that this English arrogance that people talk about all the time, I just can't see it. perhaps a couple of pundits and a few WC dwellers on the blogs but come on guys...read the entries on this board. We know we're sh*t! And you LOVE it!
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I don't know who arranges the Six Nations schedule, but Ireland must be kicking themslves for not playing England in the first match at Croke Park. They would have played with the same passion with the same result, which would have set them up perfectly for France on Saturday and then the Grand Slam. This Irish team deserves the highest honour in European rugby. Maybe next year.. after winning the World Cup!!!
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Let's not get carried away- I was at the ground and it was certainly the most moving sporting occasion I have ever attended. But it was only a game and that was what made it so great- no brawls, booing or bad behaviour and everyone involved could leave Croke Park knowing that they had been part of something special.
To our English friends- the importance of this fixture is impossible to understand if you aren't Irish. The ground, the GAA, the politics, the history.... it's easy to say it didn't matter, but it actually mattered for an awful long time and it matters a little bit less now because of the dignified passion shown by all on Saturday evening. Our anthem is no less crass or daft than yours, but both got treated with huge respect and all the players gave their all. This time, we were better, but we've been stuffed by you many times before and will be stuffed by you many times again. The joy of rugby is that we sit next to each other and enjoy the contest together. Saturday was a tribute to that principle.
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A very good Irish team very deservedly beat a poor English side (my side) in an exciting game at a great venue. Thank goodness though that Grewcock didn't catch O'Driscoll in the way that Horgan caught Strettle . What a fuss there would have been about that one.
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Firstly congratulations to Ireland, fantastic display on a par with that first half against Australia.
Secondly as an Englishman married to a Belfast Lass, well done the crowd, fantastic display, and no boo-ing. This was the Ireland I have met on so many cooasions, proud, passionate and polite.
Finally the Horgan incident, the laws state you can not impede a runner, however you do not have to get out of his way. Strettle did not move his feet, Horgan's elbow was deliberate and on another day could have been given a Red. You can not lead with an elbow under any cicumstances. That asside what a fantastic Irish display.
If England cant have the World Cup I would rather the Irish get it than anyone else, especially the SH.
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'The problem for Ireland is ... when will they actually win something?'
Very possibly in 2007.
England sold their souls to the man downstairs when they won the World Cup in 2003, and they are now paying him back in spades; blooding precisely no young players at the time has led them down the path along which they are now inexorably heading. They are a weak shadow of their former selves.
Ireland have produced a team of such substance and quality that they are in with a chance of causing an upset at the World Cup.
Unfortunately for them, I can see nothing but further agony for the English in the near future.
How the Irish celebrations could be described as "overzealous" is beyond me... Having just put England to the sword in such a flamboyant and devestating fashion, denuding and exposing the English frailties in the process, the jubilation and positive commentary was more then justified.
Roll on the World Cup!
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"Roll on the world cup!"
I think a reality check might be in order.
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Great atmosphere, and from an Irish point of view, result. I really think that Croke Park may yet become a permanent home for Irish Rugby, even a re-developed Lansdowne will only hold 50,000 and in reality - does a city like Dublin actually need 2 world-class Stadia with 3 km of each other? On Saturday it was especially pleasant to see how sections of an over hyped media managed to read the crowd reactions so badly. Did they really think rugby fans would descend to such levels as they had predicted. To those who admitted they called that wrong, well done.
If only such manners (respect for anthems and especially place-kickers) were to prevail at every match from now on, it would offer a clear rebuke to those who have adopted soccer-style behaviour at rugby games.
Ireland can only play against what is put in front of them, and no-one is living under any illusions that this England team are - to put it mildly - still way off the standard that they, as World Champions should have set themselves. Rather than complain about "Irish arrogance" as some posters have, it would be better for England to address for once and for all, it's player contracts. The entire club v. country debacle and, not unrelatedly, the importation of foreign players to the detriment of home-grown talent. As for Ireland - it's a matter of keeping focused and grinding out wins in Edinburgh and Rome.....to hope that England might beat France to square up the Championship is a little far-fetched, but please (please) prove me wrong.
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Watched the game in Aldo's bar (John Aldridge) after Liverpool vs. Sheffield United game. Surreal atmosphere of Irish and scousers together cheering on the men in Green!
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Congratulations to all involved in such a memorable occasion on Saturday. The Stadium is absolutely tremendous, the atmosphere brilliant, the organisation meticulous and efficient. I thoroughly enjoyed myself even with such a disappointing outcome for England. The Craic was reaching new levels on Saturday night. I actually had an aopology from an Irish fan, for the manner of the victoty! Don't apologise, be smug and enjot it! It was richly deserved and you guys make losing so much more palatable! Well done Ireland and thank you for a great weekend!!
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Full credit to Ireland, fantastic display ! just wish they could be as passionate at playing against other teams. When Ireland play France, Wales, Scotland, Italy it's just a game amongst others (they nearly lost at home to Italy last year, if it hadn't been for the referee) ... When Ireland play England they suddenly get passionate .... sorry guys you need to get frensic about all your games else you'll never win anything.
Why didn't you display such a level of game against France 2 weeks ago, it just annoys me !! France are gonna go down again in history as grand slam winners just because Ireland (the better team) were not motivated enough to beat them !
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So proud to be Irish. Am still smiling - feel like the lad who got the girl. It was amazing - I was in tears even before Amhran na bhfiann I could tell it was going to be special as Mary McAleese was doing her rounds. I think her bond with teh northeren players is very special and warmed my heart.
I knew GSTQ was going ot be respected in a way that not even the Macedonian anthem is treated by English soccer fans - with simple and polite respect. But when Amhran na bhfiann started and I saw Paul O'Connell crying that was it - this was going ot be the day. read Gordon D'Arcy's account of standing listening to Amhran na bhfiann on the irfu website.
What was best about the day from a rugby perspective was that Ireland played extraordinarliy well and got the scores to prove it - which is quite rare for us. We made mistakes but we rode them. These two things are what the ABs and French do as well.
I thought Stringer and BOD were excellent and exemplified actually how the French result shoudl actually fill us with hope not fear.
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Much like the reality check very kindly provided for England by the Irish on Saturday ;-)
See you in France
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Re Comment 24
The Irish team is made of players from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, traditionally Ulster players (Northern Ireland and 3 counties of the Republic) are from the Protestant tradition and there for wouldn't sing the National athem of the Republic.
The second song (Ireland Call) is an attempt at a song representing both sides.
It was a fantasic game, I just would have liked to have seen them go for 50 points instead of kicking the ball out to end the game. You can bet your left arm that McCall/Carter would have taken a quick tap.
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Well done to the Irish who truly played out of their skins, that was probably the best game I have ever seen them play. If they can keep this form going, there is no reason why they shouldn鈥檛 be in the RWC final.
England looked dangerous when they where aloud into the game for the brief spell after the break, however indiscipline by this point had proved to costly.
The forwards will have to produce allot more than ten minutes against the French, for the English backline to redeem itself.
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I understand it was great to see the respect shown for England's national anthem but, as I'm sure some of you agree, it is the least expected of the average human being to do this.
People don't get praised for not being racist everyday. The understanding by both teams to remain silent for their opposition's anthem should be noted but not praised in the manner being done.
Anyway, as for the game, we saw an exceptional performance from the first XV - Rory Best did himself proud at hooker considering the recent flak that has come his way. Horgan's handling of a wet ball caught high above his head - might seem easy but that's raw talent, not to mention the understanding between Darcy and O'Driscoll so evident when Gordon new his outside number would be there to receive his blind pass that led to swirvin' Girvin's try.
Our second row dominated and Hayes provided the brute force needed when defending from the front line.
Man of the match? Eddie O'Sullivan for assembling a team of professionals worthy to coach any rugby nation.
Passion. Desire. Commitment. Ability.
It's great to be Irish.
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What complete rubbish about the Strettle & Horgan incident. Strettle has no obligation to move out of the way and the replay showed he was stood still. Horgan, as is typical of him, put his elbow and forearm into Strettle's face. As Brian Moore said it was a cheap shot and merited a yellow card at least.
Saying this, however, even with 14 men the Irish were phenomenal and would have won anyway. That pack with O'Gara directing operations should be one of the favourites now for the World Cup.
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Ireland deserved their victory - they were magnificent. My team was poor though the team itself, the coach in particular, made it very clear where England stood in terms of their recovery.
Which is why I don't understand carping criticism of English supporters over recent years. NEVER have I read the kind of arrogant comments people seem to associate with the English rugby press/supporters in any kind of serious media publication.
If you read Michael's comment on this blog it contains the kind of sentiment and language that English people are no longer publically permitted to say - less we be regarded as the arrogant English.
I say stuff it! All my Welsh, Irish and Scottish friends continue to vociferously support their teams in, at times, the most jingoistic and unrealistic tones. We enjoyed winning the world cup and, to be honest still enoy basking in the glow of it. Which is why defeats like this are not quite as painful as they should be.
I wish my celtic friends good fortune and sincerely hope that they will be able to enjoy the kind of rosy glow that winning the Webb Ellis trophy brings. If it were ever to happen I think I will have departed this earth a long time previous so will enjoy it from my cloud vantage point.
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Let's be clear - Ireland were superb - they controlled all areas of the park. If they can keep this quality of play for the next 6 months and not suffer any injuries to O'Connell, Wallace, Stringer, O'Gara, D'Arcy & BOD - they are in with a real chance of going a long way in the WC.
However looking at England, we saw the problems against the Italians and it was not rectified against the Irish.
Any successful side needs a solid platform in order to play. That's why Jonny was so strong in the Scots match.
Our problems start in the front row. Vickery is short of his best, Freshwater is solid but fairly innocuous around the park. Chuter is lightweight for an international hooker (Thompson is out for the WC so we need someone combative - Regan?. White is a great scrummager but a liability around the rucks / mauls.
Much can be said of Grewcock too - discipline, or lack of, costs 4-5 penalties a game. Remember Ireland scored twice when he was off the field. Deacon doesn't do enough around the park either - anonymous.
Corry - a real trier but no explosive power - it's a shame we haven't witnessed Ward Smith this 6N. Rees was superb for Wasps against Sale and deserves a starting spot. Worsley is strong enough but rarely delivers his potential in internationals.
Without a solid platform, the backs do not have a lot to work with. Farrell was sound and deserves another opportunity - you can't blame him for the defeat - we didn't have good enough ball. Catt can come back in but we know what he is capable of so keep him on the bench. We don't have any centres good enough to compete with BOD & D'Arcy - I'm not sure many countries do.
Agree that Lewsey needs to be at full back but happy with Strettle to continue - would mean moving either him or Jason Robinson to either wing.
Ellis & Wilko thrive on good ball as all half backs do.
For messrs Carling, Guscott & Moore (note - they choked a WC final....), simple fact is in 2003 we had truly world class players - in 2007 we have 2-3 if at all. Ashton has picked his best side and have come up short - who else is there to come in?
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"Ireland, France and NZ in a class of their own"
Please dont say that again - its the most ridiculous comment i have ever heard.
Yes Ireland have improved considerably over the last 3 years or so and can become even better but to mention them in the same breath as NZ and France is insulting. When was the last time Ireland beat anybody decent away from home?? yes i cant remember either. They've been smashed by NZ, Aus and France over the last 2-3 seasons. Compare that to France who beat SA away last summer and have beaten Ireland last 3 times (twice in Dublin). NZ have beaten every team home and away last 2-3 seasons.
NZ are at the top, France 2nd, AUS SA Ireland distant 3rd IMO.
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Fantastic Ireland performance both on the pitch and off. Much needed reality chack required by Ireland as I doubt strength in depth in key areas (ie captaincy) and ability to perform without the awsome home support. England: Drop Corry/tindal/grewcock(never to play again for Eng)/perry. Lewsey to centre (please), have faith in farrel, play strettle and tait. Eng need games like this to show where the problems are, problem is I think there are too many problems to fix before the WC. But please be aware eng had a bad day, they are professionals and WILL bounce back. As for the horan/strettle thing; Horan should run around a player who made no attempt to impede him - poor show. Lund should have had 10mins!
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Well I stand corrected, my predictions for this match on various blogs were completely wrong.
Does anyone understand how frustrating it is for an Englishman for every side we play to put in an out of skin performance, even, as now, when England don't even figure in the world top 5.
That is the most inspired I have ever seen a rugby team play even more than some of the Munster perfomances last season.
The Irish problem now, their slow start means that they need big points against Scotland and Italy, both away, to even be in the reckoning come tournament end if they don't do it (Dare I say it, if England can turn France over, it could be them).Saturday's performance will have been a waste and everyone will question "small game" temperament.
I think Ireland can be WC contenders this year, provided they wrap their 1st 15 in cotton wool because they haven't really got a second string at present.
Dan #32 why?? - Ashton is looking forward this year not backward, you are talking about swapping creativity for pace when you should be talking about finding pace and creativity Noon is just a little Tindall, a waste of time when you have Barkley back at fitness and any number of young creative inside centres who could do with match time.
This is about WC, not 6 nations.
My 15 - 15. Lewsey 14. Strettle 13. Tindall 12. Farrell (one more chance, then Barkley) 11. Tait 10. Wilkinson 9.Ellis 8.Corry 7. Lund 6.Worsley 5.Grewcock 4. Borthwick 3.Stevens 2. Mears 1.Vickery
P.S. However much success he gets at Bristol, Sean Perry is not international standard and we need to find a better understudy for ellis.
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For all the media hype before the game about farell/tindall vs d'arcy and o'driscoll and all the media rubbish written since the game blaming Farell for England's performance the question ought to be how many times did either Irish centre break through the 10/12 channel. The answer is none.
The best thing D'arcy did was a wonderful pass to set up the 1st Irish try - but at no point did he ever look like breaking the English line. The same goes for Farell - great pass to create the space for Strettle's try but never looked like breaking the Irish line. Considering the Irish centres are widely held to be one of the top few centre partnerships in the world that's not a bad effort.
The outside backs looked dangerous whenever they had the ball, good debut for Strettle and probably Tait's best performance in an England shirt. Unfortunately the little ball they had was slow and scrappy, and while the Irish back row were baring down on them the English 6,7,8 were huffing and puffing on the wrong side of the pitch (though Rees was an improvement second half)
On the other hand the pack - including 3 1/2 (White) of the leicester pack who slaughtered the munster pack a month ago got an absolute pasting.
If Sheridan/Stevens are fit they ought to be a shoe-in for the front row. With Thompson injured hooker likes a real problem, Chuter tries hard but acheives little.
Grewcock ought to be dropped, and Deacon's had three anonymous games in a row - Kay and Palmer at lock for France.
Worsely and Corry are both simply too slow to play together. We know this from last year. Corry if he plays should be a lock. Jones to come in as a ball carrying and mobile 8 - or Worsely to 8 if Ashton has to persist with him, Rees 7, Lund 6 (Moody to slot back in when fit and Rees/Lund to fight it out for the 7 shirt). Can't be any worse than Saturday... But fair play to the Irish who raised their game and annihilated the opposition.
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What a great game rugby union is. What a fantastic weekend of rugby (and im English!!). All those fans from both sides mixing together and impeccable behaviour 鈥 makes you proud.
Very many congratulations to Ireland- both the rugby team and the fans. What better way to lay history to rest than by stuffing the old enemy out of sight, a thoroughly deserved win, albeit against an average English side 鈥 however the manner of victory was very impressive, as was the score.
Ireland need only the consistency now to go on and do well in the WC not sure they will win but they will get my backing when England undoubtedly get knocked out. (Never understood this cr*p about backing any team that play England 鈥 someone please explain why they would prefer an Australian team over any of the home nations / NH teams?? Someone please explain that one!!)
Agree with message 38 above re Strettle / Horgan and tackle in air on Morgan. But you get away with what you can - at any level of rugby. I do think though the standard of reffing is not consistently good enough at this lever. The French ref had a shocker on Sat.
Hope that does not sound like sour grapes 鈥 not meant to in any way. Again, England soundly beaten by a much better and much hungrier team. No wonder the players not blamed anyone else but have accepted that they were not good enough 鈥 they are not.
C鈥檓on the Greens Blues Reds etc.
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Well done Ireland - you played a great game.
Would like to clear one thing up though. A better side played brilliantly and beat an average side that played fairly poorly. Big deal!
You need to free yourselves from your fixation with being the plucky underdog if you are going to have a chance of winning something meaningful for the first time in 60 years.
If you do this, you have a chance to achieve something with a great side.
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Ireland did not start the 6N strongly, a not too convincing win over a far from convincing Welsh side. They were beaten in a very tight game against France and now have a great result against England. However, unlikely that France will not get the slam now (although they may do something stupid like lose to England or something) so no 6N this time...world cup?
France again (in France) and Argentina to battle against in the group stages. Not the easiest of tasks.
For now I'll settle for the fact they stuffed England. Great result and will be one that is remembered for many many years
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From an England fan - well done Ireland.
The Irish are probably the best team (France?) in the NH and should have been well on the way to the Grand Slam now, if it was not for a good French performance. I am allowing myself a little chuckle here :-), after England's heavy defeat. France for the Grand Slam now, Ireland will have to make do with the Triple Crown.
Also, I have to say that Horgan's elbow on Strettle was a cheap shot and definitely warranted a Yellow Card and Penalty.
As to the impending RWC, England have only the slimmest of chances, based purely on the premise that they make vast improvements over the next 6 months. Only France and Ireland from the NH have any real chance of winning the RWC, but I feel that neither will win. Firstly, because the ABs are superior, even though in recent RWCs they have under performed when it mattered; secondly, because the French are inconsistent and temperamental, although home advantage may be a factor; and finally, because the Irish, however good they can be, lack the mental strength to win a major tournament.
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Rory (no44) you are spot on. first and foremost it was a game of rugby. A great one from an Irish perspective. The atmosphere in Croker was magnificient and the Irish team responded with a tremendous performance. I have made many frends from my rugby travels and look forward to renewing acquaintances with my English friends again next season. This is what rugby is all about. But first I gotta survive a weekend in Edinburgh! Again. On the game itself I just think this English team has no creativity. They rely too much on a big brusing pack and a very talented out half. Is there a plan B? I certainly hope so and will be rootin for them against France.
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Re No 45 To Stephen Palmer. Brian O'Driscoll has far too good a rugby brain to ever get run over by a carthorse like Grewcock.
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Every now and then something happens that defines a nation and where it has arrived at. Saturday's occasion I believe did just that. I know it 'was only a rugby game', but in many ways it portrayed a nation that has matured and moved on and become forward looking and forward thinking. There was dignity and respect in bucketfuls. There was also emotion, passion and pride in equal amounts.
Regarding the Horgan - Strettle incident, I think that while it was a bit over zealous, it was more a high wrist shoving Strettle out of his way than an elbow or straight arm tackle. I think that Lund's illegal tackle on Dempsey was more dangerous.
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"France are gonna go down again in history as grand slam winners just because Ireland (the better team) were not motivated enough to beat them !" ?
Come on Marko, surely you missed the real game. Ireland were just as motivated to win that game as they were to beat England. They played for honour at Croke Park. It's just that France is a much harder nut to crack my friend, and their win was all but deserved.
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Post 44
Very well said, as an englishman i am not to proud to say well done. You out played us everywhere around the park and deserved the win on your performance alone, the fact that we was pathetic is for us to worry about and shouldn't detract from the win.
However i am now slightly worried about my rugby brain, I thought the englan backs did as well as could be given the poor platform the forwards gave us...Stop making Farrell the scapegoat he will come good, but more worringly i must have been watching a different game cause i'd like Corry removed asap he gave penalties away and generally did nothing so how come the media believe he was one of our best. I canmt wait to see Karl Pyrce and Chev Walker come of age but lets not rush them in or berate them on their first performance
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If Strettle was deliberately cheating by trying to impede Horgan, I think that the big Irishman is more than entitled to barge through him. In my opinion Strettle should have been penalised for his unsporting action.
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irish gentlemen
sorry to dampen your enthusiasm but i hope you have studied the world cup draw carefully.
even if you manage to beat argentina it can reasonably be assumed that you will finish second in your group having lost to france (if you can't beat them in dublin i'd be surprised if you can manage it in paris!). you will then meet new zealand in the quarter finals. yet another failure to progress to the semi's ?
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It was overhyped because to be honest England are poor,very poor lets make it clear, no direction, no pride no idea.. Sorry if thats a bit blunt but I think a few of them have been believing all the hype that comes from the mouths of Dewi Morris and Stuart Barnes every Satuday on Sky. English Premiership is no better than Celtic League, The English Players are not out on their own, alot are just very average. I admit there are some outstanding individuals in the england camp who will rise to the occasion at the world cup (Tait, Ward-Smith, Strettle) but Wales and Scotland can say the same thing Dewey, Hines, Patterson (statistically the best goal kicker in world rugby, Alex Popham, Martin Williams, Peel, Hook, all fantastic players too but you dont hear the press harping on about them much do you?? English sides have been shown up in Heineken Cup and now again in the Six Nations. Full Stop end of story!!
Ireland were immense on Saturday and such a shambles that the World Cup groups are decided four years beforehand can you imagine a football world cup group with Italy, Brazil and France all in one group?? Thats what happened with Ireland, France and Argentina in one Group.. How are the Groups chosen?? A rethink is on the cards I think!!!
Personally I think the press is to blame as much as the English structure because English rugby is not as good at this moment in time as it is made out to be. Anyone else agree??
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I just dont understand the English sometimes.
Before the game, the hype, arrogance and general "attitude" of English fans on this Blog was nasty ( not to mention unrealistic ). After being outclassed and hammered by a far superior Irish team, I see nothing but commom sense, self reflection and giving credit where credit is due to the Irish team. It is a pleasure to read quality Blog commentary.
The comments I hear on this Blog since the game, reflects the atmosphere of the game itself - decent, rugby-loving, and good fun - well done to the English fans for being so fair minded and honest. May it always be like that.
By the way, a lot of the comments about Ireland's need to be consistent are dead-on - the Irish team showed they can be the best team in the world, and so must go on and win a major tournament, just like your team of 2003 did. For the record, I thought England's destruction of Ireland in 2003 in Landsdowne Road, was the high point of their abilities, not the WC itself.
Thanks for beinf such good sports !!
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Thrilled for the Irish team, finally put a record breaking score up in a big game.
England were poor not one english player would make it into the irish team based on Saturday.
And to all our english friends who complain that none of the celts will support them, I and a few other irishmen will be behind you in two weeks, not that i think it will do any good ;-)
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4 of us in Dublin for the game unfortunately only had two tickets so other two people went and my wife and I watched in a pub.
What a great weekend Ireland as a whole country did themselves proud in the way the whole thing went.
The anthem issue was dealt with fantastically by the vast vast majority of Irish people
In the bar I watched the game in the anthems were given exactly the same respect as at croke park although the watching crowd did have a good hoot when the big screen showed Bertie Ahern and Mary Macaleese greeting each other with a kiss when taking thier seats! Although Bertie did play a major role in assisting the GAA,IRFU and FAI coming to the correct decision when this was first discussed - could you imagine Ireland playing thier home 6 nations games in Cardiff on a Saturday afternoon and Croke park lying empty? - well done all concerned that scenerio did not come to pass
Almost bizarrely the crowd in the bar also went silent when both teams were kicking again same as Croke park now I know the bars were busy but I don't think they could have heard that far away!!!!!
Getting on to the match Ireland played simply the best rugby they have ever played I think most definately since the game turned pro - no question.
Performing like that at home they could give anybody a game including the All Blacks.
I think it underlined the form from the France game I.E. France played exceptional rugby in the first 30 minutes of that game.
England were outplayed and rarely for them outmuscled in the pack and in fairness the coach, players and fans from England readily acknowledged that.
I do not like to hear to much gloating from the Irish fans as they would do well to remember that sport tends to be cyclical remember 2003 when England simply blew Ireland away in the GS decider at Landsdowne road which they followed up winning the RWC AWAY from home.
After the euphoria of the croke park issue they now have two away games and then the next competitive action will be at the RWC in France
The coaching staff will already working on building the confidence and belief that will be needed to win major test rugby matches away from home including at least one encounter with the host nation.
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unfortunately honest tim (nice but dim) is right
Ireland have been shafted in the draw for the world cup along with our regular opponents Argentina.
What are the odds of meeting the hosts and Argentina in the group stages twice in a row?
(Last time out we beat Argentina by a point (I think) and lost to Australia by a point)
So yes one of Ireland, France or Argentina will go out at the first hurdle and another will play the Kiwis.
Very unfair since there will be lesser teams (i.e. England, Scotland and Wales)virtually guaranteed a 1/4 final place.
Much for the IRB to think about when devising the seedings for the next competition which are actually made the day after the RWC final by the looks of things.
Seems very short sighted, considering we have beaten the world champions (that is England in case you'd forgotten) 4 times on the spin.
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Dear Jim,
As Shaun Edwards commented today about the old brigade, including you, demanding that Farrell be dropped for the France game. Laughable and ludicrous short-sighted bigotry. The same triumvirate made similar demands about Henry Paul and Andy Robinson. They jump on the anti-league bandwagon without a moments thought.
Lets put Farrells contribution into perspective in what was a poor showing from 1 to 14. Strettle is a star in the making. Tindall never broke the line once. Wilkinson was appalling and his kicking was simply amateurish. Lewsey was average. Farrell did fashion the try for strettle. He does lack pace but he brings a lot more to the team. He was not the worst player on the pitch by a long chalk. Corry and Vickery are donkeys, pure and simple. I don't hear a chorus of disapproval directed at their direction. You may as well drop the whole bloody team if one adopts the attitude that you adopt. When Jason Robinson switched the same odious little commentators where calling for his head as well. Forgive my memory but im sure Jason Robinson his the only english player ever to score a try on a World Cup final. Erm, makes you think doesn't it.
What a bunch of tedious old bores you old brigade are.
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Just did a quick calculation
England had 8000 tickets allocated so we can safely assume with that number and other people over as guests of Irish supporters and other people accompanying folk at the match there would have been somewhere in the region of 10000 English supporters/visitors in Dublin city over the last weekend.
They must have spent on average 1000 EUROS each that equates to a whopping 10 MILLION EUROS being brought in to the economy of Dublin city over one weekend
Who in thier right mind could possibly complain about that?
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Comhgairdeachas d'fhoireann na h脡ireann ar an Sathairn, d'imir sibh s谩r-chluiche.
A great day for irish sport. David Wallace man of the match. Unfortunately the comments regarding ireland's inconsistency are true. Ireland should be on their way to a grand slam now but instead will have to be content with yet another triple crown, an achievement which is simply not enough anymore given that the talent in ireland far outclasses anything offered by the other three 'home nations'.(Wales when they get their act together have the next most talented players).
A cruel draw in the WC means that ireland will have to beat the french in paris or failing that, the all blacks in the quarters. Either would require another gear previously unseen by this irish team. To state that the winner of ireland/france will definitely meet the kiwis in the final is to completely overlook not only the chances of the losers of that match in the quarter final match against nz, but the dual-threat of australia/soth africa. Although ireland hammered both these teams in november, they will be a different prospect in france this autumn!
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I think you will find that it was the wind swaying the goalposts and not the volume of the crowd's singing, you idiot.
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Why do people complain about Ireland being shafted in the World Cup draw. Yes, at the moment England are a weak team but the seeding is based on previous world cup performances, and as holders England get a high seeding. Secondly, England have South Africa & Samoa in their group, again, which goes to show there is never and easy group. That said I'm glad England are not in that group!
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Re: Post 57. As a person with an English mother and Irish father I know all too well the history between Ireland and England. I found the acceptance of the Irish fans to GSTQ incredibly moving - this goes beyond not showing racism. A nation that has been done some incredible injustices at the hands of the English has now, through a game of rugby, shown that it is time to move forward. I don't expect the quiet acceptance of each others anthems to be mentioned again - this was an historic moment and is well worth the coverage it has had.
I am grateful that the two nations representing both sides of my heritage found a place to show their respect to each other - and that the sport I love was part of it.
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I agree with post 81, Farrell was not as bad as all are making out. However, I also agree with Guscott and he needs to be on the bench with Mike Catt at 12. This is not a relfection on Farrell but I think Wilkinson needs help bossing the game, he has been away for 3 years and no matter what people say he has to be rusty and he needs help in this area. When Johnny last played for England he had Greenwood and Dawson for help, now he has no one. Also, if we think back Catt was needed to help with exactly this during the last world cup, second half vs. wales, game against France! Farrell will get there but he isn't there yet!
With regards to people saying a lack of pace is hurting him, remember Will Greenwood. He had no pace but more than made up for it with his positioning and anticipation. Alright, Farrell isn't Greenwood yet but after 3 international are we not being too hasty!
As for the England team vs. France, Tait has to play based as he provides a spark and is a lot more solid than I realised in the tackle and going forward. The pack needs the most work, the scrum is ineffecitive and the front 5 are invisible around the pitch. The back row are not up with play and Corry is 1 dimensional and doesn't offer much from the back of the scrum. My XV would be
1. Stevens if fit or Vicks if not
2. Chuter (not great but better than Mears!)
3. Vicks or White if Stevens isn't ready
4. Palmer
5. Deacon
6. Worsley - had a good game but no support
7. Ress - I like Lund but after that performance...
8. Easter - plays here for Quins and had a good all action debut
9. Ellis
10. Wilkinson
11. Strettle
12. Catt
13. Tait
14. Robinson
15. Lewsey - his natural position
16. Mears
17. White/Freshwater
18. Borthwick or Jones
19. Lund
20. Perry
21. Farrell
22. Cueto
thoughts
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Ireland got lucky - they would have won, I suspect, but in other circumstances the margin would have been a deserved 10 points
1) Ireland lost to France: this meant they were incredibly pumped up to avoid a second defeat at Croke Park, it would have been the same against anyone else, the fact that it was England only added to the spice
2) they were given a French referee: all through the game he allowed the Irish to get away with murder at the breakdown, as for Grewcock's sinbinning, that should have been England's penalty for Stringer's dummy pick up (I am a referee, btw): no wonder he looked stunned ! French refereeing standards are appalling, if a Scot or a Welshman had been in charge it would have been much different. For a quality refereeing performance, look at Tony Spreadbury yesterday.
3) Ireland had two weeks to prepare with day after day of squad sessions: England players played a hard premiership match, then had 1 day of meaningful preparation. In this day and age that is suicidal, but the Premiership club chairmen couldn't care a toss.
4) Ireland have two world class players in O'Driscoll and O'Connell, and lots of experience elsewehere. England have no world class players, and a lot who are not good enough for International rugby (e.g. Grewcock, Tindall and Farrell). Look at any great team, in any sport, and they always have one or two players who are a little bit extra special e.g. Cryff, Maradonna, Gareth Edwards, Gretzky etc etc.
Anyone who said England would retain the WC has been living in cloud cuckoo land for the last 3 years: the WC team had 4 great players (NOT Johnny Wilkinson, place kicking apart he is a rubbish fly half, he cannot do the basic job of a fly half which is to get the line moving: Richard Sharp thou shouldst be living at his hour !), once they were gone there was always going to be a struggle. Woodward got lucky !
As for the Irish, don't get your hopes up, lads, come Autumn you will be exposed by competent refereeing and ruthless opposition. A semi final place if you are lucky.
England will be lucky to make the QFs....
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There is a bit of comment on here about how much superior Ireland are to England as if it has been long running theme. I would be careful what you say as comments like that tend to bite you in the backside. It is inevitable that England will rediscover themselves and will improve, including during the world cup. Rugby moves in cycles and I can clearly remember in recent memory a number of hammerings that have been dished out by England to Ireland. I want you to do well, but please, you don't want to be labelled arrogant - as an englishman I should know!
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as an irish friend of mine has pointed out (bearing in mind
n.z. have their usual groupings of the south pole, outer mongolia etc):
the more I think about it, the nicer a tie vs some undercooked Kiwis looks. I almost envy the French...
fair point
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Well done to the Irish. Like some have said, it wasn't just that Ireland played well and we didn't, the Irish simply didn't let us do anything (I don't remember a series of phases England strang together in the whole match).
However, regarding point 77:
The vast majority of England fans I know are not arrogant in their views on rugby. Most of us knew we were in for a tough night (admittedly I didn't expect a 30 point drubbing).
Perhaps Paul should consider that few arrogant English supporters who spouted off before the game are likely to be the type who are magnanimous in defeat.
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If England were as poor as some of you are saying, that must mean that Ireland aren't as good as some of you are saying.
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Well done to the Irish. Like some have said, it wasn't just that Ireland played well and we didn't, the Irish simply didn't let us do anything (I don't remember a series of phases England strang together in the whole match).
However, regarding point 77:
The vast majority of England fans I know are not arrogant in their views on rugby. Most of us knew we were in for a tough night (admittedly I didn't expect a 30 point drubbing).
Perhaps Paul should consider that few arrogant English supporters who spouted off before the game are likely to be the type who are magnanimous in defeat.
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Ireland were good England were bad..
When Ireland had the ball in hand they looked adventurous and innivotive England looked sluggish and seemed content to play a "rugby league" style union.. not comitting players to the breackdown.
The conditions may have been bad but the same for both teams and England cannot even blame the refereeing as is often the case where they never seem to get the benifit of the doubt.
We were well and truely traunced all credit to a dynamic irish team that played with a passion England sorely lacked.
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Hey William (post 72)... didn't see any aggressive rugby against France. That extra agressivness and speed on the ball that Ireland (rightfully) came out with on Sunday just lacked during the first match at Croke Park against the French. I also found that, hadn't Ireland been impressed by the atmosphere in Croke Park during the first twenty minutes ... Ibanez would never had scored that first try ! Take care,I sincerely hope Ireland come out top of their group at world cup 2007.
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well said Nick Harvey at 84, I'd say the fact that the wind caused the posts to sway completely escaped Jim, I'd say he GENUINELY thought that the crowd singing caused the posts to move...or wait, maybe he was just exercising a little poetic license??!
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Perhaps the England team should spend less time in the gym and more time on the training pitch. The Irish pack are lighter and quicker with better ball skills. The English backroom staff have created forwards that can bench pub pool tables but can't get to a breakdown.
Well done Ireland. Excellent team effort.
Hopefully Dan Ward-Smith will get a chance on the tour of SA before the WC to add some natural strength and dynasism to the pack.
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Post 86 purplekaz
This rambling on about history between the Irish and the English drives me mad and is extremely ignorant.
If there is any history it is between the Irish and BRITISH! The particular Croke Park reference is a prime example. The Black and Tans were British not English and were made up principally of Scots. The British (not English) prime minister at the time was a Welshman.
It is pathetic how people go on about being proud and aware of their history when much of what they believe about their history is erroneous and basically an excuse for old fashioned bigotry.
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Of course English fans aren't arrogant, the reason we get the view that english fans are arrogant is down to your press, we are in a unique position to see the press of another country, tv, radio and printed.
Always, always, they think England will win, Cricket, Rugby, Soccer, the last world cup was a perfect example, the Ashes?
Hopefully, our press won't go overboard, with the little bit of success we have.
Go on Scotland or England, beat the French
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As an Irishman, it's hard not to be happy, but the england game really just makes the France defeat smart even more. There still exists a belief problem in Irish sport, and until we can change that attitude, we'll win nothing.
One thing i always enjoy about English sports fans is their optimism. Every (soccer) World Cup, English fans believe 'this will be the one' We simply don't possess that here, and maybe, never will.
Well done to English supporters, for being gracious in defeat all weekend in Dublin, see you in two years
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Of course English fans aren't arrogant, the reason we get the view that english fans are arrogant is down to your press, we are in a unique position to see the press of another country, tv, radio and printed.
Always, always, they think England will win, Cricket, Rugby, Soccer, the last world cup was a perfect example, the Ashes?
Hopefully, our press won't go overboard, with the little bit of success we have.
Go on Scotland or England, beat the French
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Re: 88 - How unfortunate that some Englishmen persist in living down to the stereotypical image of ungracious losers. So the ref was biased, the premiership got in the way, and what's unforgivable, the Irish were motivated to win!! Most unfair of all, however, they selected a couple of world-class players! I trust the Irish will take all this to heart and in future acknowledge their inate inferiority to the English by showing due deference and restraint and, most importantly, by losing.
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Re: 88 - How unfortunate that some Englishmen persist in living down to the stereotypical image of ungracious losers. So the ref was biased, the premiership got in the way, and what's unforgivable, the Irish were motivated to win!! Most unfair of all, however, they selected a couple of world-class players! I trust the Irish will take all this to heart and in future acknowledge their inate inferiority to the English by showing due deference and restraint and, most importantly, by losing.
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Re: 88 - How unfortunate that some Englishmen persist in living down to the stereotypical image of ungracious losers. So the ref was biased, the premiership got in the way, and what's unforgivable, the Irish were motivated to win!! Most unfair of all, however, they selected a couple of world-class players! I trust the Irish will take all this to heart and in future acknowledge their inate inferiority to the English by showing due deference and restraint and, most importantly, by losing.
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well done Nicky Harvey at 84, top of the class for pointing out that it was, in fact, the wind that caused the goalposts to sway. I'd say Jim genuinely thought that the crowd singing the anthem was actually the cause. oh no, wait, maybe he was exercising some poetic license...
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Is it true that Brian Ashton has been coach of both the teams ( Ireland and now England) who suffered the biggest defeats between two countries? And if so how does this bode for England? Or is it just unfortunate timing for Ashton?
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Re: 88 - How unfortunate that some Englishmen persist in living down to the stereotypical image of ungracious losers. So the ref was biased, the premiership got in the way, and what's unforgivable, the Irish were motivated to win!! Most unfair of all, however, they selected a couple of world-class players! I trust the Irish will take all this to heart and in future acknowledge their inate inferiority to the English by showing due deference and restraint and, most importantly, by losing.
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Proud to be Irish and to have been at the match. Maybe a little too much hyperbole about the result now but much as Ireland had a low point in Lens against Argentina in the rwc, I feel that it is in the interests of the English team to have their flaws exposed at this stage, rather than the world stage later in the year.
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Comment 86 PurpleKaz
"..incredible injustices at the hands of the English"
Where does this 'English' thing come from? Putting aside your one sided comment regarding injustices, it was always 'British' forces over the last 300 years. That means Scotland, Wales and, later, Ulster as well (the later being in your own team now 鈥ut that鈥檚 OK?). Their MPs, generals and soldiers were just as much part of what you consider wrong so many generations ago, why do you single out the English?
Is this some pathetic and technically incorrect 'Celtic Brotherhood' argument to disguise racism? Please move on and be fair. Ireland is a wealthy, progressive nation (thanks in part to being an 'English' speaking nation in the Euro) but it seems to have left some of its residents trailing a century or two in the past.
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Post 66, you really need to read post 44 to try and understand why this game was so important for us Irish. And even then you probably won't be able to.
I'm both a Rugby and GAA fan and it feels great that both my favorite games can be played in the same place. When sport beats politics its always a great day. Being there on Saturday mand me extemely proud to be Irish.
The manner of the victory was also fantastic. Ireland looked like scoring more tries if they were given an extra 10 minutes. Still I don't want to sound too arrogant. We beat you now so I'm going to be happy for a while, but I've no doubt you'll come back (but not for a while though). Hopefully you'll destroy the French, just try and give the ball to Strettle!
And by the way, we were not the plucky underdog, we were the favourites going into that game.
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No.88
It looks like you're complaining that the circumstances of the match were unfair because ireland had some world class players and you had none. should we have shouted you some to even things out? (see the 4th point in his pathetic rant.) as to the rest of your complaints - great big BOOHOO!!
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43.13
NEXT!
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Since when did Tony Spreadbury become the standard for refereeing? Is it because he is English? It seems, like everything else in the world, the only people capable of doing the job right is an Englishman? Like the English guy in the footie world cup...how many cards did he hand out?
If you google Spreadbury's name you will see that he has a few detractors.
That should send a few feathers flying!!!!
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Since when did Tony Spreadbury become the standard for refereeing? Is it because he is English? It seems, like everything else in the world, the only people capable of doing the job right is an Englishman? Like the English guy in the footie world cup...how many cards did he hand out?
If you google Spreadbury's name you will see that he has a few detractors.
That should send a few feathers flying!!!!
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Re: Posts 98 and 110
My apologies for my poor choice of wording.
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Re: Posts 98 and 110
My apologies for my poor choice of wording.
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No.88
That was the most pathetic piece of complaining i've ever heard, England were stuffed and to blame it on the nationality of the ref is just whining.Plus it's hard 4 Wilko 2 get the line moving when his centres are as quick and skillfull as props.
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David Webber, poster no. 7, characterises June 24 1994, the day the Springboks beat the "unbeatable" All Blacks as the most important date in world rugby. There's no doubt that the iconic image of Mandela wearing the South African captain's rugby shirt will remain in the mind's eye for ever. But Webber's characterisation of the All Blacks as "unbeatable" loses sight of the fact that a similarly "unbeatable" teams of All Blacks lost to Australia in the semi-final of the World Cup in Dublin back in 1991.
Presumably David Webber was not in Croke Park on Sunday. My brother (who lives in South Africa and attended both the 1994 final in S.A. and Saturday's match in Dublin) compared the two matches on the basis that both involved, in some way or another, relinquishing the shackles of history. And both matches had the capacity to produce that "hair standing up on the back of the neck effect" that is rarely witnessed at a great sporting occasion. Having been to both the Munich Olympics and the Sydney Olympics, I can honestly say that neither of these sporting experiences compared, even remotely, in emotional terms, to Saturday.
More importantly, however, the evening of Saturday the 24th of February will be remembered as one during which Irish and English rugby fans mixed, as they always do, with great camaraderie and generosity of spirit. Both of us are aware that the vagaries of the game will produce different winning teams in the future. And both of us are also aware that last Saturday was Ireland's day and no one begrudged us the right to celebrate it in considerable style. If the positive emotions of Saturday could be bottled and administered to the denizens of Dublin over the next few years, they would be far better than any drug.
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post 107 you say:
"and what's unforgivable, the Irish were motivated to win!! "
That's not unforgivable ... it's just frustrating to see how such good players and team can lose a competition (ie 6 nations) because they don't have the same envy of beating such nations as France or Italy. If Ireland player's objective is triple crown ... so be it ! Now you have to hope on England beating France to win the 6 nations !
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A memorable occasion for the all ireland! the English anthem played alongside our Amhr谩n na bhFiann in Croker....who could have imagined it. i hope England now go and put it up to the french.
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Re comment 57 - oh yes, who can forget the English booing of Flower of Scotland at Euro '96; and it's time the English used their own anthem rather than the UK one.
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I think No 88 has forgotten to bear one thing in mind: England were rubbish, and believe me, being a Scotsman, I know a rubbish rugby team when I see one.
Ireland are a good side but still lacking that certain something that a great side has. Perhaps this will develop in time for the World Cup, however I still feel they're too dependant on Stringer and BOD at the moment.
In saying that I will be hiding behind the sofa during the Scotland v Ireland game to avoid the X rated horror taking place on the pitch.
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A memorable occasion for the all ireland! the English anthem played alongside our Amhr谩n in Croker....who could have imagined it 5 years ago. i wish England best of luck for the remainder.
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All the English players are talking more about how they lost the match, rather than how Ireland won it. It's always the same with English sports people. Why can't they just put their hands up and admit that they are not the best team in the world or even the northern hemisphere. Once they start to admit this, they will be able to set about putting it right. Ireland won the game easily and never looked like losing. Fact.
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As an Englishman I am very disappoint but Ireland was unbeleiveable. WHY DIDN'T YOU PLAY LIKE THAT AGANST THE FRENCH! my team for next week
1. Vickery (capt)
2. Chuter
3. White
4. Palmer as grewcock has been taken out and shot for treson
5. Borthwick
6. Worsley
7. Rees
8. Corry (why did ward-smith have to bugger his knee up!)
9. Ellis
10. Wilkinson
11. Strettle
12. Farrell
13. Tait or Noon
14. Robinson
15. Lewsey
Personally did not think farrel was that bad. Not quick but a good passer and set up some attacks e.g strettles try.
Horgan's elbow on strettle was a cheap shot
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Fair play but for me the most momentus (from a biast opinion) was when Jonny Wilkinson hit a drop goal between the posts and won the 2003 World Cup for England and in one moment ending 37 years of sporting pain and helping a nation find its identity as people celebrated their pride in being English. Just as Ireland is finding its identity so is England as the final embers of empire and British identity fade. Yes I'm sure I will get abuse for this - but I have huge pride in being English.
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Well there's a lot to address here.
Firstly, well done to Ireland on an excellent performance. Could we drop this general prejudice against everyone who is English now please? There was a very small minority of morons (probably soccer fans) before the match who predicted that England would hammer Ireland.
Every true England rugby fan has done nothing but admit our teams poor performance and praise Ireland's effort.
On the question of where Engand go from here, I've said before that I actually thought the English backs performed well considering the amount and quality of ball they were getting. I'd keep strettle on one wing and bring robinson back on the other (with Lewsey at full-back). The only change in the backs I'd consider making is Tait in for Tindall because he has impressed every time I've seen him.
The forwards (what an absolute disaster). Front-row, second-row, back row all performed dreadfully. Considering the back row are supposed to be ball carriers did anyone see them make 1 single yard?
Corry has to go (why did Dan Ward-Smith have to get injured!), Stevens to come in as soon as possible, Rees should start and possibly Palmer. Our forwards have nowhere near the same mobility and go-forward that other top teams have.
Ireland's chances in the WC? I can't see them winning it to be honest but you never know. The draw is unfortunate.
I would never discount England. All it takes is one game (maybe QF) for that group of players to put together an excellent 80 mins and then the momentum gains. But it is looking bleak at the moment.
Am I the only who thinks that the home factor might be a disadvantage for France? Their crowd is notoriously harsh and restless. If they start off badly in one of the knockout games I can see the crowd really getting on their backs.
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Post no. 8
the laughter for the prez was because she was captured on the screen kissing some dignitary or fellow 'royal box' type.
"Some knowledgable people know" it was An Taoiseach, the Irish Prime Minister, Bertie Aherne.
Dan post 32 - no please, not, not not, Noon and Tindall in the centre. How boring would that be? Robinson tried that so many times and all it did was show how lacking in cutting edge that combination was. Did they EVER break the line?
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I thought the irish team played brilliantly on saturday they played a high octane brand of rugby and england could not live with them, a lot of credit has to go to fitness coach mike mcgurn, he has transformed that team into a powerful and extremely fit machine,he may have ruffled a few feathers when he was in fact suspended by the irish rugby union for criticising the fitness set up and lack of pre season, but he has now been totally vindicated and has made the players into great athletes
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First thing first, congrats to the Irish. I may be an Engalnd fan, but foremost I am a rugby fan.
To say that England were rubbish, is to me, an insult to how well Ireland played. From the kick off, Ireland dominated every facet of the game. England were simply not able to play because the Irish performance would not let us and that is why there was a 30 point margin between the two sides
However, I do not think that the Panic Buttons should be pressed. The likes of Carling and Guscott should stop making scapegoats of certain players and look at the broader picture.
We were never going to win the 6 nations this year, but what Brian Ashton and co. are trying to do is build a team, not drop players after they have a bad game. It is always easy to pick out players like Lund, Farrell and Chuter, but rugby is a team game. These guys will only get international experience by playing International Tests. They would have learnt more about what is required at this level in the 80 Minutes at croke park than they did in the previous two games. This can only gel them as a team.
The world cup side that one the 2003 world cup took six years to build. Ireland's current side has taken 4 years to build. Go figure....
Ireland should play every home game at Croke Park, it makes the kind of occasion that makes me realise why I enjoy the game of Rugby so much.
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After reading all the xenophobic rubbish leading up to the game, it is extremely refreshing to read posts that show respect for each other's teams. The respect for the Irish performance and supporters from English supporters on this blog is what epitomizes the the game of rugby and true fans. I remember (as an Irish man (and with mixed emotions!)) feeling happy for the England team that won the world cup. In rugby, what matters most is the game and not the petty paraphernalia that surrounds the current game. When a team plays well, they should be applauded.
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I am a proud Irishman and now live in NY. I was fortunate enough to be in Croke Park on Sat(thanks to a ticket from my brother who lives in London, who also came home for the game).It was a great day for Ireland on so many fronts.........
I played rugby for my club in Dublin and played Gaelic Football with my county (in Croke Park).I am so proud that the GAA opened up Croke Park to rugby. I am also very proud of the welcome and reception that the English team and the fans received from the Irish.....
I was visiting family in Wexford last week and was in a local restaurant on Thursday night with family.We met up with a large contingent of English fans. Everyone was going out of their way to make the English fans feel very welcome........recognizing the enormity of the occasion...this was happening across the country. It continued and the English team received a superb welcome from the Irish fans in Croke Park ,the Cathedral of Irish Gaelic sports.
As others have written above, it was truly an hostoric occasion.It embodied the ideals that we hold dear in sports.....
There is one point where there appears some confusion among some of my English friends and i would like to share it.... Some of my English friends have said (and i believe that there is no malice intended , just a lack of knowledge) that they thought that the reason the English received such a great welcome etc is that it was a "rugby " crowd versus a "Gaelic" footbal crowd. I would say that the welcome and sincerity was across the country and across all sporting interests.Many in Croke Park on Saturday are strong Gaelic fans and many on the Irish team today and in the past were also Gaelic Football players.....Shane Horgan played minor football for Meath ( and it was very evident in the manner in which he caught the ball to score the try) and Moss Keane from the past.
My point is that what was experienced Saturday by us all reflected the heartfelt sincerity of all Irish people (with very few exceptions
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A good Irish performance but people are getting a tad carried away with how good it was. England didn't play that badly...Ireland just had a good day. Plus lets not forget that England are 8th in the world rankings. And the elbow in the throat from Horgan on Strettle was illegal...no question. A player can stand his ground...read the laws. A player may not elbow another player in the neck...would have been a yellow if the linesman or ref. picked it up...god knows how they didn't.
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The "Strettle/Horgan" incident is just part of rugby. Get over it guys.
I was in a pub packed with English fans and most of them actually play the game (rather than just shout from the stands) and not one of them saw anything wrong in what Horgan did, or for that matter what Strettle did.
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Is it me or are we a tad fickle in our support of the Irish team?
The majority of posts on a similar blog two weeks ago, and hot on the heels of our defeat against the French (mine included) suggested that the Irish team was 4-5 players short of being a 'great' team, that we had bottled it, and that we had got the selection issues all wrong in the backline!
Now two weeks on we are saying that everything is ok and we are back on track again!
So what has instilled us with renewed hope and optimism and in such a short period of time?
Is it the return of BOD as some people are suggesting? Well, their is no doubting his class and the influence he exerts on the team and he was, sorely missed against France so yes that had a bearing. Others say it was the return of Peter Stringer and highlight his work at digging out the ball at the foot of the rucks and his quick pass! Others say it is a combination of both! And while I agree that both were missed against the French I think there are some other reasons which need to be considered.
For me, the major difference with Saturdays performance and that of two weeks ago was actually having all our back line playing in their natural berths! Just observing Shane Horgan's body language you got the feeling that he was much more comfortable out there on Saturday than he was two weeks previous when playing out of position.
I also feel O' Connell and O' Callaghan had big games on Saturday and improved immensely on previous showings. We also seemed to use O鈥機onnell much more in the line out and apart from two to David Wallace and one to Easterby our 4 and 5 were our main jumpers, i.e. a safer bet.
Our front row also deserves a mention, particularly Horan and Hayes;-much maligned, much talked about, particulary Hayes for his missed tackle, but for me both worth their weight in gold, and certainly not getting the mauling everyone had predicted before the tournament started! Improved on French outing also!
So, let's not get carried away let's enjoy the victory and let's put things into perspective: - a good win but we need to play like that all the time and not every second game. (let鈥檚 face it O鈥機onnell, O鈥機allaghan, Hayes and Horan being that aggressive and effective in the tight and the loose against the French and it may have been enough, even without messers Stringer and O鈥橠riscoll.
Finally, and this is a plea to O' Sullivan: - if you need to make changes due to injury don't shuffle people around. Let鈥檚 leave our top class players (Darcy & Horgan) playing in their proper positions and get maximum traction that way.
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in answer to no.133
probably the same ref or touch judge (linesmen exist in another game) who couldn't see horan kneeing wilkinson in the face, stringer faking the pick up to draw grewcock offside, o'callaghan running lead-block for wallace's "try", o'driscoll piling into an altercation from some distance and horgan jumping illegally into lewsey.
still france will always get their quota of "refeeress"
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welcome back Honest tim, we have missed your drivel.
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Just remember Ireland scored two tries when England were a man short and were gifted a third to Boss. Leave those 21 points out of it and things don't look so marvellous. So lets not get too carried away in our usual Irish way.
The real question is: can we play like this in each game, rather than the old thing of one good game per season?
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the ref didnt do a bad job.he's actually not been great to irish teams over the years but we just go on and try and win the match without moaning about a decision that went against us and england were quite indisciplined and were lucky to only have grewcock sinbinned. julian white should have had his marching orders aswell.it's ridiculous to moan and bitch about that. ireland play good clean rugby in general. if it was the aussies or the kiwis no one would whinge and would accept they were beaten by a better team. it's called physical rugby, something that the world cup 2003 team would know all about. my english friends saw nothing untoward in ireland's play at all. no englsish players complained either. we have some sore losers around.
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135 - Agree with you completely Brian.
Just hope some Ireland players / managers read this blog .... they need to play this level all their matches. Even though it could have been a little too agressive, had it been different referees at least one Irish player should have been sin binned. Late tackle on Ollie Morgan, Elbow shove on Strettle, Lund also deseved to have more than just a warning. This makes me wonder what the fundamentals of sin binning are: the only guys who was sent off didn't really do anything dangerous !
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Before the match on the 大象传媒 the commentator mentioned that Tony Ward,who normally co-commentates on RTE, had said the he thought Ireland would win by at least 20 points. (I am not sure of the exact figures.) I remember smiling and thinking "Not a chance." Thankfully Tony was right.
I think this did England a favour. This Irish team has combined the skill with something we have in abundance........passion!!! All the supporters showed something we have also learned.......respect for history. What a great day.......for both countries.
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It was a great win at the weekend for historic reasons if nothing else. They have beaten Australia, South Africa, and England - all of them very poor by the standard of previous teams from these countries. Can they beat a good team is the true test. Perhaps they can - but for the World Cup they cannot afford injuries in key positions .....
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Ireland were the better side without doubt. It was not nice as Englishman to see England beaten like that. Both sides did the game credit and England will improve. Questions have been asked about what England have done since 2003? Questions could also be asked about what any Northern Hemisphere side has done before that.
Ireland were simply irresistable and on the 24th February 2007 from my sofa I had tears in my eyes for the anthems. That day, the world wanted to be Irish. You cetainly answered Irelands call
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Ireland were the better side without doubt. It was not nice as Englishman to see England beaten like that. Both sides did the game credit and England will improve. Questions have been asked about what England have done since 2003? Questions could also be asked about what any Northern Hemisphere side has done before that.
Ireland were simply irresistable and on the 24th February 2007 from my sofa I had tears in my eyes for the anthems. That day, the world wanted to be Irish. You cetainly answered Irelands call
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For those fans still complaining about Stringer's faked pick-up, watch the replay. The referee was already playing advantage for hands in the ruck - the ball took an eternity to come out - clear professional fouling to stop Ireland scoring a try. Grewcock was the most visible transgressor in that he was all over the scrum half, but whoever had their hands on the ball in the ruck could have been sin binned too. I don't have any sympathy for Grewcock in that he's a serial transgressor, often for far more violent conduct.
The only reason Magnus Lund wasn't carded for his disgraceful tackle on Dempsey in the air was because refs won't put 2 players from the same team off at the same time, England would have been down to 13.
Fair enough Horan should have had a rest, but stop the crying lads, none of these events would have had much bearing on the result anyway. Stand up and take your beating like men, just like we had to for many years at the hands of clearly superior English teams. Now that the boot is on the other foot you can't use the crutch of bad referees to excuse your failings. Constructive debate of how to rebuild from here would be far more useful...
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An awesome performance on Saturday, and Ireland looked again like living up to their potential. England were ponderous, their pack decimated. Given current form over the last few months play throughout the world, the World Cup should come down to NZ, France, Ireland and possibly SA in the semis. My worry is the depth of Ireland. We saw only a fortnight ago how the lack of BOD can so drastically influence their team performance.
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it's so ungracious to say ireland won because england were poor. i don't think the english rugby fans are arrogant but comments like that do nothing to dispel the stereotype.it just seems like sour grapes by a minority to me. i'm not getting carried away. ireland outclassed england. it wasn't that england were brutally bad, more like that ireland didnt let them play. for god's sake- most english fans have accepted that ireland were better. i'm not saying roll on the world cup, as nz are going to probably win, and as an irish fan, i've no shame in saying it but give credit where it's due. plus no 88 blaming the lack of a 2 week break is just pathetic, most permeirship clubs rested their international players. also how anyone can blame the referee's nationality for ireland winning by 30 points is beyond me. if there was a few points in it, there might be a slight cause for complaint about a refereeing decision, but not to blame the fact jutge was french. ireland annihilated the english through their own brilliant players and so stop making excuses and accept it. if australia complained about england winning the world and it only happening by putting it down to their own mistakes, the english would be rightfully annoyed. well it's the same in this situation. also may i remind those minority of excuse makers, that last sat was the 4th year in a row that ireland have beaten england.
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it's so ungracious to say ireland won because england were poor. i don't think the english rugby fans are arrogant but comments like that do nothing to dispel the stereotype.it just seems like sour grapes by a minority to me. i'm not getting carried away. ireland outclassed england. it wasn't that england were brutally bad, more like that ireland didnt let them play. for god's sake- most english fans have accepted that ireland were better. i'm not saying roll on the world cup, as nz are going to probably win, and as an irish fan, i've no shame in saying it but give credit where it's due. plus no 88 blaming the lack of a 2 week break is just pathetic, most permeirship clubs rested their international players. also how anyone can blame the referee's nationality for ireland winning by 30 points is beyond me. if there was a few points in it, there might be a slight cause for complaint about a refereeing decision, but not to blame the fact jutge was french. ireland annihilated the english through their own brilliant players and so stop making excuses and accept it. if australia complained about england winning the world by being down to their own mistakes, the english would be rightfully annoyed. well it's the same in this situation. also may i remind those minority of excuse makers, that last sat was the 4th year in a row that ireland have beaten england.
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145 scots-canuck
You may be justified in terms of form but technically NZ, France & Ireland can't all get to the semis; study the fixture list! The top two of France/Ireland's group will play top two of NZ's group in QF.
If Ireland has the ambition they're going have to beat one of France (RWC hosts!) or world no 1 NZ (unless one of those two really flunk en route, but unlikely) ...good luck!!
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Scots-Canuck,
France or Ireland will be playing NZ in the qtr finals, unless Argentina spoil the party....
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145 Kevin
I don鈥檛 think any England fans are blaming the ref for the result, we all acknowledge Ireland deserved the win. However, some of us are confused by Grewcock鈥檚 yellow card.
He was covering Stringer at the side of the ruck, onside. He was waiting for the ball to come out. You maybe right about playing advantage and hands on from England in the ruck, I didn鈥檛 see, but in that case it should have been one of those players carded. Stringer threw a dummy, Grewcock, desperate to defend his try line, simply fell for it (isn鈥檛 that what dummy throws are enticing?). Foul & penalty for sure, but yellow card? It wasn鈥檛 deliberate or an intentional dangerous foul (like an elbow or knee in the face) nor was it slowing play down, it was Stringer who had already slowed play down by faking the pass and Grewcock wasn鈥檛 obstructing Stringers first chance.
I think the ref, like you, let Grewcock鈥檚 reputation influence his decision. It was a costly decision but I鈥檓 willing to hear the other side!
This is not a whinge about the result, best team won, just a Rugby law thing. I shall also point out that, conversely, I thought Lund was lucky to stay on the pitch I don鈥檛 think he had malicious intent but it was dangerous and he could have pulled out of it.
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145 - Kevin
I don鈥檛 think any England fans are blaming the ref for the result, we all acknowledge Ireland deserved the win. However, some of us are confused by Grewcock鈥檚 yellow card.
He was covering Stringer at the side of the ruck, onside. He was waiting for the ball to come out. You maybe right about playing advantage and hands on from England in the ruck, I didn鈥檛 see, but in that case it should have been one of those players carded. Stringer threw a dummy, Grewcock, desperate to defend his try line, simply fell for it (isn鈥檛 that what dummy throws are enticing?). Foul & penalty for sure, but yellow card? It wasn鈥檛 deliberate or an intentional dangerous foul (like an elbow or knee in the face) nor was it slowing play down, it was Stringer who had already slowed play down by faking the pass and Grewcock wasn鈥檛 obstructing Stringers first chance.
I think the ref, like you, let Grewcock鈥檚 reputation influence his decision. It was a costly decision but I鈥檓 willing to hear the other side!
This is not a whinge about the result, best team won, just a Rugby law thing. I shall also point out that, conversely, I thought Lund was lucky to stay on the pitch I don鈥檛 think he had malicious intent but it was dangerous and he could have pulled out of it.
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As a Frenchman, I can only say we would have lost from this Ireland if they had played with that dedication and BOD/Peter Stringer.
I hope England will give us a good match in two weeks time. By the way, I don't think England was a poor side. I think the Irish were high and mighty.
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Great Irish performance but no need for 'EASY' chanting, an import from football. Hopefully England dont take revenge and hammer us next year (or in the semi-final of the WC). We can saviour the win but what goes around comes around.
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I would just like to thank Brian Moore for his part in Ireland's victory.
Long may the embittered buffoon provide the perfect motivation for England's opposition.
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Its amazing to me how many people havent watched the game again - I am on a refereeing course in Cardiff right now - and we have just had the benefit of slow motion replays from several angles - firstly Crewcocks yellow card was an error - it is clear from the video eveidence that the ball was out and in play.The line out decision that led to an ireland score was wrong - the kick was made in the english 25 and the correct decision was to have taken the line out on halfway. Horgan should have been sent off for the use of the elbow - and should be cited [will be] Lund should have been sin binned for the dangerous tackle on the Irish player in the air. the penalty given for taking down the scrum in front of the english posts 40 yards out was incorrect - the video replay shows quite clearly the Irish prop bringing the scrum down. there were numerous other examples of crossing being missed by the referee as well as the coward attack on Wilkinson as he lay at the bottom of a ruck.
The referee had a direct input into 17 of the points scored - the objective of any good referee is to be firmly invisible! Draw what ever conclusions you like but the facts [not theory] demonstrate that the refereeing was directly responsible for 3 of Irelands scores and you dont want that in any game of rugby -it takes all the gloss away from victory
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Brian Moore should stick to what he is good at which is doing a technical analysis based on facts. For the rest of his rugby journalism he proved again his remarks are of the mark. Just stop this kind of journalism. It's doing rugby no good.
Ireland played a great game against France but luck was against them in the last minutes.
If England wants to do this championship a favour, they should realise they have a load of potential, they should work hard in the next weeks, beat France and give Ireland what they deserve. This years title.
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I think England can win the world cup.
Right, all Irish, New Zealand, Aussies laugh now please....
We can win it. Not now, but then the world cup is not now (thank god) We have the players, in Johnny, Vickery,Lund, Robinson, Lewsey, etc
So why didn't we win (or come anywhere close on Sat against Irish?
1. Irish played exceptionally - this is not an excuse it just has to be admitted
2. We are a very newly formed team - many positions are still very fluid and undecided, eg Farrel/Catt, back 3 issues etc
3. We were not prepared for what came at us - linked to no.2
This however does not mean that our hopes of winning the world cup are blown, we should improve gradually and consistently with every game, even if we lose to France, which I think we might well we will learn and develop. Ireland are a good team but they are not a great team (NZ are) and they will not win the world cup this time round, although I love their team and the way they played against England (even though I'm English!)
To sum up, England are at this stage 'experimental' whereas Ireland are a team, I believe, at the peak of their powers and because of that, I really think England _can_ win the World Cup.
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Congratulations must first go to Ireland for a brilliant performance (we'll forget Horgan's indiscretion), and also to Brian Moore for his usual awful commentary. I'll ask again, because no one knew first time around: what the heck does 'siling' mean? I think he made up a word.
Anyway, England weren't as poor as some people have made out, and the excuses from Worsley are terrible. The fact is that the English have no world class players at the moment, and that INCLUDES Jonny Wilkinson. No world class player looks that average behind a failing pack - look at Peel, Blair, and most of ireland and wales' backlines in previous seasons (not so now for Ireland though!). Its not enough to kick your goals and keep the scoreboard ticking-you have to go out, score tries, and make the opposition play harder than they want to. England don't have forward dominance anymore, so the kicking game won't work against most teams. If they try it against france they'll lose horribly.
Ireland on the other hand, still look shaky in the front row. I know most people have praised their front row, but there were numerous penalties going against england when they should have been against ireland, so the jury's still out. The backs were very good; not brilliant, just very good and pragmatic. They'll have a job beating france in france in the world cup though, because irish belief usually comes from having 1000s of irish fans bellowing for them throughout a game, whereas against france the french will have home advantage, and ireland never seem to play well in France, or if they do, its too late. Hats off to them, they've become a very good unit over the last 5/6 years, but if BOD or POC gets injured i would fear for them, because the replacements are lacking in class, and no match for either of the leaders. They'll have to beat france, because a NZ second string can still beat ireland, as they proved twice in the summer, and after virtually no warm-up either, on top of the fact that ireland have never beaten NZ, and NZ have a stronger squad (in all ways that matter). France to make the final in the WC for me, ireland out in the 1/4s having narrowly lost to france to meet NZ.
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why am i posting this its clearly evident that within these isles ireland have the better team all this drugery about referees and yellow cards like any good rugby man the referees decision is FINAL but the inane " well if we dont beat you then someone else will " mentality look at the facts we simply are better apart from our front row the squad is world class more than capable of winning a world cup name me a better back five or three quarter line in world rugby ,yes i know i will get the usual all black stuff but hey you never know ,you just never know
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Ladies...Enough of all this crying about Horgan and Strettle. This was rugby not soccer. You can watch the whole match again in slow-motion and if there are those that think that Horgan deserved to be sin-binned, then by that measuring stick, it would have been 10 men on 10 men most of the day....
And since we're talking about who deserves yellow cards...they should definitely be given out for seriously dangerous play. Like Lund's tackle in mid-air on Dempsey. Speaking as someone who broke their neck on the rugby field, that most definitely deserved at least a yellow card. The ref didn't have the guts to show the card because England were already a man down due to Grewcock's stupidity.
Once again, it's rugby, a contact sport.
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All this talk of the ireland and the WC is unnerving I would say that lets first concentrate getting out of the group stage because that will not be easy. To start thinking of who we sould play in the quarters is a bit too confident. I don't doubt Ireland's ability but we don't play well in France against France or Argentina for that matter (Remember Lens?).
Personally I think that if ireland play NZ in the quarters we will beat them. Millenium will be a home away from home for us. But lets jst get out of the group first!
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Michael (1st Comment on post's) Please recoil mate. As far as i am concearned the real English fans did not hype us up to win the WC. Every rugby fan must be convinced the WC is on a plate for the AB's. Just you look at the facts mate, we had a good spell and won the grand slam and the WC at the same time you were supposed to be challenging (remember the thrashing at lds road to win the GS). YOu are having another supposed great era and have won...well i'll let you answer that! All this because we are in transition after alot of injuries/retirements and shody management. Don't get me wrong fair play on saturday you played very well but we were at an all time low standard. Dream on if you think you have a WC..make's me laugh!
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Did anyone else notice two very small things off and on the pitch on Sat. I roared as Brian Moore, proving his impartiality as a commentator shouted 'it's our ball' and, unless the laws have changed - is it not a penalty to use your hand to deliberately knock the ballout of play? Farrell did it blatently in the dying minutes. I remember a similar incident in the seventies when Ireland were leading 3-0 and with the last kick of the game Bob Hiller squared it up.
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A Question to all
If Ireland were to play France today, would they have a reasonalble chance of winning? (note 'reasonable chance')
I think so. Forget about pre judging future games just look at our record
won 5, beating australia, South Africa, Pacific Islands, Wales England
Lost 1, France beaten by three points.
Take that form, which includes current form, you have to say that Ireland and France are the only contenders from the NH in the RWC.
Can Ireland beat France in the group stages of the World Cup. Current form, overall skill and Ireland having 'an axe to grind' suggests that this could be one of the 'great games' of this WC.
I am not saying Ireland will win but if we do then the rest is a bonus. Also we avoid NZ in the Quarter finals if we win the group!
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Post# 81
Sorry Darran, but I diagree about Farrell (to say the least)
Pace is all-important in modern international rugby (something Jason Robinson has in abundance) fielding effective ball disributors in lieu, isn't acceptable (at test level) anymore. Ireland experimented with this in 1994, in the shape of Kurt McQuilkin (an Irish qualified Kiwi), whose pass was to die for everytime, but whose pace was non-existent and as a consequence opposition centres continually beat and eluded him...he was not sufficiently fast to the tackle/ball carrier and Farrell for me, has much the same defaults.
Rugby League star does not necessitate success in the 15-man game, I'm afraid
SEAN
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Manny
What sort of refereeing course are you on where they are talking about a 25 yard line?!
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Post 163.
Oh how outrageous! Brian should be immediately flogged.
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All this stuff about Horgan's "indiscretion", funny how nobody has mentioned Girvan Dempsey being turned upside. I thought that was far more serious as he could have been seriously injured.
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To Richard in Denmark.
Brian Moore is notoriously biased towards England all the time.
Now, this is great to listen to when England are being soundly trashed. But sounds crude and pompous when they are winning...which is not too often these days TG.
I am going to nominate his commentries to be entered in to 'the Comedy Hall of Fame' as that is where they belong!
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Just a point of interesting trivia, which is by no means an attempt to revert back to the 'hammered out' debate of Croke Park's history. But, an RTE historian pointed out after the game that the location where Horgan caught the ball for his famous try last Saturday was the same location and spot where a certain Mr. Hogan was shot and killed in 1921. Silly trivia, but entertaining nonetheless!!
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just to state that the preperation of englands 6 nation campaign has left them stranded, the previous wins over italy and scotland had raised all english fans hopes up and the illusion that jonny wilkinson is superman was shortly restored, but the pure brillaince of the irish rugby team has brought britain back to reality, in any sport preperation is vital. england can say goodbye to the 6 nations and the world cup. The old fowards dont have the same passion they they did previously, and the backs seemed lost. Although the irish team have the worlds best back line, they made englands backs look like school children. Corry needs to be dropped and Farrel has had 3 games, you surely cant judge him on that little time which he put in pretty average performances, strettle scored a pretty easy try which im sure i could have scored, so the english nation needs to take every day as it comes and stop getting high hopes of a mirage of the performances shown by the world cup team
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Post 171 - not much of a "historian" are you, matey?
Firstly, it was DEMPSEY's try that was roughly the same spot where Hogan was struck down.
And secondly, you complete pillock, the attack on Croke Park in which Michael Hogan was murdered took place in November 1920.
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Oh dear, Eugene. Some great comments there but you failed to realise that most true rugby fans in England never believed the hype about England rugby's resurgence. Beating Scotland and Italy was never a true demonstration of where we'd got to - Ireland were deservedly always the favourites and should have been in line for the Grand Slam. The contest last weekend was most remarkable for its demonstration of what sport should really be all about - the crowd at Croke Park responded fantastically to the occasion and I shall always remember that. In the meantime, England have to concentrate on the basics and playing their own game.
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Correct me if I am wrong, England doesn't have a national anthem. Hence the GSTQ, which is the anthem of GB.
43.13 ah life is good you know.
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175 Collie
As an Englishman I welcome as many taunts about GSTQ as possible, and frankly, most Englishmen I know are utterly embarrassed by it. Compared to Ireland's anthem it said it all. I'd love a happy ditty where I scream out 'England, England' in lifting chorus but instead we get a funeral march durge which wildly over-praising some unwarranted bunch of Greco-Germans.
Keep up it Collie, we're going to need outside help on this one!
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I'm a bit surprised at the vehemence with which some people are targeting the ref. Obviously nobody gets all the calls right but some of the complaints are a bit sheeky to be fair.
The Grewcock card - I was under the impression (open to correction) that you are perfectly entitled to dummy pass from the base of a ruck (not a scrum) and so what was the problem with Stringer? I do agree with the point that the yellow card should probably have gone to one of the initial offenders though.
Strettle/Horgan - agree Horgan was lucky enough to get away with it, doubt it deserves a citing though.
Lund/Dempsey - Lund extremely lucky to be on the pitch - could definitely have avoided the contact and if Grewcock hadn't been off then he would have been binned straight away (whole other can of worms there about refs not binning 2 players)
Kick from "inside the English 25" (whatever that is) - if you were to watch the video properly, you'd see that the player caught the ball outside the 22 and carried it back in, hence the ball cannot be kicked directly to touch - I'd ask for my money back if I were you Manny.
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cail铆n - Dempsey was indeed turned upside down, risking serious injury. Ten minutes earlier, O'Driscoll did an almost identical hit on Olly Morgan while Morgan was in mid-air (Dempsey fell more awkwardly but the hits were both cynical), which eventually resulted in Morgan leaving the field without even a hint of an apology from O'Driscoll. That was bad enough but O'Driscoll had the audacity to call for the referee to yellow card a hugely apologetic Magnus Lund for the hit on Dempsey!
After his woes from Umaga's tackle, BOD should have more respect for his fellow players IMHO and behave less like a footballer - note the token "oh no, O'Driscoll's gone down with an injury" delay before the end before BOD 'magically' continues playing.
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The major problem with this England side at the moment is the front 5. It is underpowered and it needs to be beefed up. The comebacks of props Matthew Stevens and Andrew Sheridan will certainly help with this though and i can't see that deacon or palmer have much of a future at international level and it is encouraging to see borthwick returning to the england squad.
1. Stevens / Sheridan
2. Chuter
3. Vickery
4. Borthwick
5. Grewcock
I also have an issue with the sheer lack of time for this team to prepare. I find it startling that other nations such as scotland and ireland are able to have a full two week training whereas we only have half this. Please can someone explain how we are supposed to compete?
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cail铆n - Dempsey was indeed turned upside down, risking serious injury. Ten minutes earlier, O'Driscoll did an almost identical hit on Olly Morgan while Morgan was in mid-air (Dempsey fell more awkwardly but the hits were both cynical), which eventually resulted in Morgan leaving the field without even a hint of an apology from O'Driscoll. That was bad enough but O'Driscoll had the audacity to call for the referee to yellow card a hugely apologetic Magnus Lund for the hit on Dempsey!
After his woes from Umaga's tackle, BOD should have more respect for his fellow players IMHO and behave less like a footballer - note the token "oh no, O'Driscoll's gone down with an injury" delay before the end before BOD 'magically' continues playing.
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145 - True England would have lost even without the poor refereeing. Because Ireland WERE the better side BY FAR, they choked us. But for some strange reason ... Ireland always seem to focus more on the match against us rather than on any other match .... hence ... NO GRAND SLAM or tournament win for Ireland this year. Very disappointing considering Ireland outclass all other NH teams on paper! What's done is done now Ireland need to focus on each match at a time (until hopefully the WC final) and play with as much control, heart and passion as they did against England.
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As a proud Englishman i would like to congratulate the Irish on a great win. The vast majority of English fans are gracious in defeat and although we got a thumping i actually enjoyed the game. Please ignore the comments on the Strettle/Horgan incident - the kind of people that moan about these things are the kind that stop up until midnight every Saturday night to watch action replays of the latest Andy Johnson or steven Gerrard dive on match of the day. Well done Ireland, see you in 2009 - slante !
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177 Eoin
No one is saying Stringer did anything wrong, opposite, it was a good dummy! It fooled Grewcock but that was really Grewcock's only 鈥榗rime鈥, nothing malicious or dangerous about it (I think Stringer would needed treatment it if it was).
I was also suggesting that it wasn't slowing play down either as Stringer had a chance, unhindered by an onside Grewcock, for quick ball but elected to dummy.
I know it鈥檚 no use crying over spilt milk but it鈥檚 why some of us are confused about the yellow card and feel DG gets unfairly targetted.
The sin bin was a big deal, two tries worth, but whatever; the best team on the day won.
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I agree that Ireland would dearly miss the leadership & talent of O'Connell & O'Driscoll, but to say that Ireland's replacements lack the class needed I think is misguided. Consider:
Jerry Flannery - The best hooker in last year's championship & refinding his form after injuries. When fully fit, he is arguably the best thrower in the Northern Hemisphere & he's superb in the loose.
Neil Best - A human wrecking-ball, desperately unfortunate not to be in the starting XV. Would walk into any other team in the Six Nations.
Isaac Boss - Under-rated. Stringer's pass is superior & his understanding with O'Gara is hugely beneficial, as is his decision-making, but Boss is much more of a threat to the opposition.
Paddy Wallace - Okay, not in the class of O'Gara, but then, frankly, who is?
Andrew Trimble/Geordan Murphy - both supremely talented individuals who would certainly walk into the other home nations' teams.
That leaves the reserve prop and 2nd row positions. Admittedly prop is a problem, but Bryan Young has time on his side, who knows how good he could be. Reserve lock - Malcolm O'Kelly may be past his best but is still formidable.
Does the Ireland bench lack the class??
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Has anyone tried to view the footage of the "Grewcock" incident on this site? First off, the quality is really poor. Why doesn't the 大象传媒 post good quality footage? The current quality isn't worthwhile.
Secondly, the editing pulls away just as Grewcock infringed. It is impossible to see what happened. Again, poor form 大象传媒. Enquiring fans want to know!
Come on 大象传媒, improve the quality of the footage. There's no point if putting up lowest common denominator resolution footage. Even if someone was browsing on an old 56K line, they wouldn't watch the footage, because the quality is too bad.
Most people on here during the day are at "work" anyway, and so have good wide bandwidth available.
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In reponse to Steve Taylor comment
"Can anyone explain why with such a "united Irish team" do they need two anthems. Could someone explain why some sing one and not the other."
As you know the Irish team is made up from people from both sides of the border those of being of unionist side who don't see themselves as Irish but as British and don鈥檛 sing Amhr谩n na bhFiann cause its about Irish soldiers doing battle with our English enemies. So to give them an anthem they can feel part of they have Ireland鈥檚 call.
Ps its an old anthem very few poeple in Ireland see you as an enemy. Your just the old enemy and everyone likes to beat there old rivals! Its the same when England play Germany.
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Post 186
They also might not sing it simply because it is not their anthem, or even because they don't know the words.
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A smile from O'Sullivan, and a good days work!
O'Gara has put himself firmly where he wants to be ahead of the World Cup, #2 to Dan Carter - that's not bad in anybody's book!
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