England face fly-half conundrum
- 12 Mar 07, 09:25 AM
London - Talk about a different kettle of ball games at Twickenham.
England's rousing was a world apart from the dank November defeat at the hands of Argentina, the last time I was at headquarters.
Then, us fans booed as we sank to our lowest ebb in eons. On Sunday, we smiled as the shoots of recovery burst forth in the early spring sunshine.
It wasn't flawless, but that blimming chariot was as low as it's been for a long while.
There was plenty to savour; the intensity of the front five, the workrate of the back row and the flashing blade of David Strettle. Even the midfield had its moments, though the stodgy element remains.
But most of all we left the ground grinning at our apparent luxury of riches at fly-half. The lanky and seemingly languid Toby Flood had a fine game, as did the more frenetic-looking Shane Geraghty when he replaced him. Both impressed in their own ways.
But with a certain likely to be fit again soon, coach Brian Ashton is left with an almost impossible decision when he picks his side to face Wales sometime on Tuesday or Wednesday. Our chief bloodhound Simon Austin was straining at the leash to find out who the experts would pick, so we threw him a bone and set him free. Here's what he came back with.
Former Wales fly-half Jonathan Davies: "I would have gone with Shane Geraghty last Sunday and I would go for him again against Wales.
He plays with Catt every week and is an attacking fly-half who can produce the unexpected.
He did well when he came on and is playing with a lot of confidence for London Irish.
England need a spark behind the pack. The great thing for Brian Ashton is that he's got options at 10. Toby Flood played well and Jonny Wilkinson is an outstanding outside half.
Wilkinson can play the expansive, attacking game that Ashton wants, but he shouldn't be rushed back yet.
Saying all that, it all comes down to the forwards and the different platform England had compared to the one they did at Croke Park.
It would have been interesting to see Wilkinson and Farrell playing behind this pack on Sunday."
Sale coach and former France captain Philippe Saint-Andre: "The two young kids did very well against France.
England need continuity, so they should pick one of the two against Wales. I think Jonny Wilkinson will be number one come the World Cup, but England need to be sure about their back-up players.
Wilkinson needs to play some games - he's not fully match-fit yet."
Former England scrum-half Matt Dawson: "I thought Toby Flood had a really, really top-class game for his first start for England.
I know it looked like Shane Geraghty came on and was amazing in all departments, but the work had already been done by Flood.
Tactically he was very sound. The way he was attacking the line and showing a turn of pace we haven't had at fly-half for a while was very impressive. Suddenly we've got four fly-halves available."
Former England centre Jeremy Guscott: "I would stick with the same combination of Catt and Toby Flood for the game with Wales. Shane Geraghty is more of an impact player.
Flood is a steady influence and would set out the game plan. I would not even name Jonny Wilkinson in the squad."
So that's what they think. What do you reckon?
Wales 27-18 England
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I can鈥檛 believe anyone is suggesting that Wilkinson should not get his place back.
I bet it was the same bunch of shallow 鈥榝air weather鈥 and 鈥榝lavour of the moment鈥 fans that have taken to booing their team when things are not going well.
A few weeks ago Wilkinson made one of the most incredible comebacks in sporting history, not just rugby history. A couple of likely lads have a good day, and not only that incredible performance, but a career of incredible performances is suddenly forgotten and thrown out the window. It's ridiculous and shameful.
One could argue that purely because he is a special player that he deserves his place, but I鈥檓 not going to.
The fact is that he performed as he did on his comeback under incredible pressure. Flood and Geraghty had nothing to lose and everything to gain, as did the whole England team on Sunday, and it wasn't them, but the forwards that actually won it. If Wilkinson had been playing we would thrashed them.
The same people suggesting they leave Wilkinson out now, will be the same people cursing his replacements when they miss the crucial kicks to win tight games, and in case they hadn鈥檛 noticed, most top level internationals are tight games.
They all seemed to have forgotten that Hodgson was a running flyhalf and he had a good early run, notably against the Boks, and yet while he was number 10, England had their worst run in history.
The French had a guy called Michalak who everyone ooed about, but he is nowhere to be seen now for a very good reason. The nature of the modern game is that players are studied with days of footage to look at, their weaknesses are exposed and their strenghs are nullified.
O鈥橠riscol, when he first came on the scene, made regular stunning breaks, but now they are relatively rare. Does that mean he has got worse as a player? Of course not. It just means that teams know how to contain him.
These young players will be worked out and targeted, and after one bad game, the same people calling for them to replace Wilkinson, will be the same people calling for them to be dropped. What makes Wilkinson a great player, is that people know all about him, and yet he still, more often than not, comes out on top, and crucially, he has proven it in situations where others have been found wanting.
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flood must start at 10 again. a dead leg is only a minor injury and he will able to train by tuesday so that is no issue. he has a lot more control than geraghty, and he will show he can perform in cardiff next week.
geraghty is no way near a test goal kicker, which is a deciding factor why not to pick him next week. we will need to keep the scoreboard ticking over and he cant do that. BA played him well against france, becasue his spice was perfect to hit tired french legs with, prefectly shown by setting up tindalls try.
wilkinson doesnt come into the picture for me, he is not fully fit yet, and he needs more gametime before he is getting another chance. also like a pundit above said, we need the back up players to get gametime.
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I'd still have Wilkinson for his goal kicking, tactical awareness and tackling. He was obviously not completely fit for either Ireland or Wales (he went from 3 months of little contact stright into an international) so I think it would be unfair to drop him. I know that Toby Flood played 11 for the Falcons, could either Geraghty or Flood fill in for Tindall at outside centre, or can they not play there?
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I think Guscott has it right.
You don't change a winning side and frankly while Wilko is the best kicker in England, I still don't think he is the best attacking fly-half in England.
Hodgson on his day has more creative vision and Flood and Geraghty looked comfortable out there. They deserve another go.
If he is still in one piece Wilko will go to the World Cup, but with the prospect of players with the attacking verve of Flood, Geraghty and Lamb of Gloucester, things are looking interesting.
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Much better from England and were far much faster to the breakdown. I was so much impressed with the young players and the future is looking much brighter. Imagine three top class fly halfs, but it is so much easier for half backs to shine when the pack is in the ascendancy; and that was where the game was won,and the forwards were the great success although the work they do never looks as spectacular as the flair of the backs.
Having said that I think the find of the six nations has been Strettle what a flyer
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I continuity is needed especially after the marked improvements, so Flood should be retained and JW allowed to gain more match fitness with Newcastle.
Flood v Geraghty has the hall marks of the Andrew v Barnes selection dilemma.
Tindall's (timely) injury seems to have eased the middle field debate.
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We have the luxury to wait for JW to be 100% fit before being picked. Flood did little wrong, he's the holder of the shirt, he should keep it. JWs last 2 games have been behind failing packs after coming back from injury, so it's unfair to write him off on that.
I felt Flood was looking to open up the play with running good lines, giving dummies, more than we've seen for a long while for England and, had Tindall not always slowed play down, the wings could have been released even more (and they haven't seen the ball in 3 years).
Geraghty looks a stunning prospect with ball in hand but his kicking from hand was suspect.
At top level you have to have a high kicking ratio and JW certainly changes the mind set of the opposition forwards - penalty in own half equals 3pts and they don't slow the ball down so much.
Let JW fully recover, give Flood the shirt and see what his kicking is like under pressure in the heat in Cardiff. We need our replacements for the 10 shirt to have big game experience as JW is always likely to get injured.
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Much better from England and were far much faster to the breakdown. I was so much impressed with the young players and the future is looking much brighter. Imagine three top class fly halfs, but it is so much easier for half backs to shine when the pack is in the ascendancy; and that was where the game was won,and the forwards were the great success although the work they do never looks as spectacular as the flair of the backs.
Having said that I think the find of the six nations has been Strettle what a flyer
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Agreed - Flood and Geraghty played outstandingly against France, and Brian Ashton mustn't just shift them out of the squad just because Wilkinson's back from injury, as this will do nothing for their confidence in the game they play
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after a decent performance on sunday, i reckon you got to stick with Flood as if he is gonna go to the world cup he needs more international games. then geraughty can come off thebench later on to inject more life into the game. let wilko play for newcastle and get more games under his belt before the wc, we all know how good he is.
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Guscott is right. We must stick with Flood and Catt or we will never learn anything about the pairing. There is only a handful of games now before the WC.
Geharty made the second try but his kicking was bad and we didn't see his defence.
Wilko would have earned England three more points with the easier of the two kicks that Flood missed, but I doubt he would have added much else.
Flood looks more exciting with ball in hand than Wilko does, and he's bigger and can offload excellently. He also looks more composed and settled than Geharty.
It's a shame none of our three fly-halves can kick well out of hand. All accurate, but all short distance traders.
As I've been saying for weeks now, though, the major plus is Strettle, who is a legend in the making.
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I would not pick Wilko until he has game time we need him fit for the World Cup. As with Tins getting injured I would move Catt to 13 and play Flood or Geraghty at 12 with the other or Ryan Lamb playing 10.
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I understand why people wouldn't have Wilkinson, mainly to blood the others, but as a fan my heart says lets see what the boy can do with a pack that competes! I don't expect the Welsh match to be easy, and it will be physical, but Wilkinson was excellent against the Scots behind a strong forward pack and I would love to see him have another chance at it.
Flood would be my number 2, Geraghty is exciting but Flood seems more complete and I would be more comfortable with him when the chips are down.
Asumming Johnny starts who do you have as sub - that would be tough! I like Jerry Guscott's thinking as using Geraghty as an impact play off the bench, and if you do this what about Flood, a bit harsh me thinks! I can't decide and would be happy with either but maybe Flood just shades it playing 21 behind Wilko at 10!
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Wilko is the best hands down. Even Thomas Castinede said he is the best Fly half in the world and you don't realise that till you play against him. I don't personally think he is currently the best fly half in the world a certain Dan carter would challeng him on that but he has everything and if people say her lacks pace and attaking verve then just look at the past, between 2001 and 2003 he was in charge of the best attaking line in the world and his first cap was as a winger. I do think its great we have this dilema i personally think hogson is a street behind the two young blokes. I do think tho JW should play as I/C and play the role much like Mauger does for the ABs and let Geraghty play FH because i think he has class about him.
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I would agree that a fully fit Wilkinson should start and his performance against Scotland after all that he's been through was Roy of the Rovers stuff.
However, if there is still a doubt about his hamstring and given that the Scotland and Italy games seemed to take so much out of him, I would prefer to see him left out to continue his rehab.
Realistically, England need Italy and Scotland to win in order for them to have a chance of the title so why risk him?
I would keep Flood at 10 and would like to see Tait at 13 in place of the injured Tindall.
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jonathan davies has it right - it was about England's pack (and France didnt show up) - what would Wilko and Farrell looked like if they had been behind that pack for the France game.
I think that they should let Flood & Geraghty take 10 for the last game - it doesnt prove much bringing Wilko in, we know he is one of the best 10's in the world, so should be 10 come RWC time.
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Flood and Wilkinson both play, one of them (probably Wilkinson) in the centre alongside Catt.
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Flood and Geraghty were impressive on Sunday, so I think they deserve another chance. As someone has mentioned, it would be good to see how good they really are in the run up to the world cup.
With Farrel and Tyndall out, how about putting Wilkinson in the centre? There England could benefit from his tackling in defense, as well as his goal kicking. I'd then put Flood back in the number 10 spot, where he played excellently on Sunday, and keep Geraghty in the 22, where he deserves to be.
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Well, I think those two just had a lucky first game and Wilkinson should definitely start after everything he has done for us. This may sound crazy but I think Geraghty should start at Full-Back as he is not a fully class goal-kicker.
Who is this fourth fly-half? Surely not Charlie Hodgson...
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One of the French problems was that they didn't give Flood or Geraghty the respect that they deserved choosing to throw their defences at Mike Catt instead assuming that he would be the main playmaker.
I agree that in posession they were knocked out of the game by the English pack but I cannot see either Flood or Geraghty getting the same space again.
Perhaps there is an argument for JW Flood and Catt playing the England midfield in Tindall's absence. Probably a bit too off the wall.
JW for goal kicking and experience perhaps use Flood for an earlier change than usual just to mix things up.
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Wilkinson is the best fly half in England. Saying that, if you drop Flood after his performance on Sunday with all the pressure there was and the quality of the opposition, you are sending the wrong message to the players.
Flood should start, with Wilkinson on the bench if fit because it is important he stays involved. That might be harsh on Geraghty but it is clear he will get his chance again sooner or later.
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Well, I think those two just had a lucky first game and Wilkinson should definitely start after everything he has done for us. This may sound crazy but I think Geraghty should start at Full-Back as he is not a fully class goal-kicker.
Who is this fourth fly-half? Surely not Charlie Hodgson...
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Scotland have a number of good loose forwards, and they have all played pretty well, but does anyone have the slightest doubt, that the moment Jason White can jog, he will be back in the team?
Compare that to the English fanboy attitude to Wilkinson. He has an average game behind a beaten pack. A couple of young guns have a good day behind a dominant pack, and its: "Goodbye Wilko, thanks for the memories, but we don't need you anymore."
Jerry Guscott and the rest of you that agree with him don't deserve a player like Johnny Wilkinson playing for England. No one works harder than him, and has delivered more for his country, and you just want throw him away like yesterdays fish and chips wrapping.
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I think we should stick with Flood as first choice and Geraghty as back up. As great as Wilko is, I think we should rest him. We all saw that he can still deliver at the top level, but what he needs now is game time. His body needs to re-adapt to the rigours of top flight rugby, and for that he simply needs more matches under his belt. He'll get enough of those with Newcastle and hopefully by the end of the season will be showing some good consistent form again.
At the same time this would give us a better idea of Flood's consistency. Particularly in the second half he showed glimpses that he can do some of the basics quite well and control the game like an international fly-half should. And the combination of Flood's tactical game plus Geraghty's impact playing seemed to be effective, and may be what England needs to get around some Wales' more tenacious and wily backs.
At any rate, this will be one of their last chances to shine on the big stage, as I imagine that BA will want to start to solidify his first team selection in the summer tests, which could mean Wilko in the foreground (providing he survives the season, although something tells me he will) with the two youngsters being pushed onto the sidelines.
Give the boys another run around at the weekend, they were impressive enough! Lets hope the forwards retain the passion and pride this weekend so that the backs can show their stuff again.
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So Jake West (see the first message) you are saying after two a brilliant first start by Flood and A fantastic debut by Geraghty neither should have the chance to build on it and at the very least become a competent back-up for Wilko come the world cup.
Aside from that ridiculous comment what i was going to suggest is that other than creating a try which helped win us the match Catt didn't do much else other than had a sound kicking game, I know that that try DID contribute to us winning the match and all that but it's possible that a try would have come from somewhere else without his intervention. Flood plays in the centres outside Wilko at Newcastle so why not let him play there outside Geraghty both have twice as much flair as Wilko themselves, the thought of both of them working in tandem is mouth watering. Put A big centre in just because it's neccesary to always have someone available for the crash ball, unfortunately Tindall's injured so I guess we'll be going for someone like noon, used to playing with Flood in the centres so shouldnt be a problem, with Wilko on the bench to bring on with 20 to go. If we need a cool head, maybe bring on Catty aswell, two cool operators, the prospect is the perfect blend of flair (flood and geraghty)strength (noon) experience (robinson and lewsey) and lethal finishing (strettle). with more experience on the bench in wilko and catty. Ellis played well and should retain his place, whilst I would leave the pack as it is.
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I think flood should start on saturday. The best thing ashton could do is keep the same team. Obviously impossible now, but what about Wilkinson at outside centre with his quick hands and great defence? Also he'd be there to kick the goals and another option for kicking out of the hand (which wasnt great against France).
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If Wilkinson stays fit he will be the number one fly half come the WC, but much like other posters, I believe that he should have a chance to get fit for the summer tour to South Africa, which could be crucial to prepare for the WC. Flood played very well, I thought, and Geraghty looks like a great prospect and a useful game breaker from the bench, and against Wales, they should be given the same chance they were this week. England now have three potential players at fly half, all of whom could play inside centre, and Catt and Farrell in the mix at 12. My own feeling is that in the long term Wilkinson and Flood will be the inside backs with Tait outside, and this could probably be the selection at the WC, but Flood and Catt will be the combination for the Wales game, and rightly so. At least after the terrible midfield play of Hodgson, Goode and Tindall over the last two years, we have some creative players to choose from.
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Despite the hype, Catt did not have the best of games for England - he himself admnitted that his pass to Flood for the try should have gone to Lewsey earlier. We should not get carried away on the basis of one match. There is an obvious solution to the connundrum at fly half by putting Wilkinson at inside centre as he has played there before. I would not mind if Catt were retained - he did not play badly after the first 20 mins - I just think we now have better options available. Just do not give me Farrell in the centre!
Catt is not quick enough for outside center and hopefully we have learnt our lesson from the earlier games about lack of pace. Tait should play in place of Tindall (who is probably out of contention with a knee infection.) Tait is extremely quick and creative and will if Catt were replaced - the back line would look extremely attractive and pacy irrespective of whether Flood or Geraghty get the nod. We have not had a really pacy backline in years.
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Also, I'd like to say to all those people who wrote off the team before the match, lamenting selection, saying we didn't have a snowball's chance in hell against the French, to all you supposed supporters, I hope you've learned your lesson. Sure, I pictured England trailing France in the dying minutes of the game by maybe a try or even two, but I never said anything and backed BA's choices to the hilt. I reckon a little faith and confidence doesn't just work wonders on the pitch, coz when the fans are positively behind the coach and team then that's when they really seem to raise their game. Come on lads, don't let the team down again! We can mope and complain after a bad result when we have evidence and good reason to, but before any matches we should be putting full faith in BA as at present its he who has the final call, and none other. (Rob Andrew, cry your heart out!)
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When/if JW becomes fully fit and gets games under his belt then he will be recognised as one of the best players (let alone fly-halfs) in the world.
However, if there is any doubt at all about his fitness then we should use Flood with Geraghty on the bench because we cannot risk him getting a long-term injury before the WC.
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simple-WILKINSON
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i agree with tom noble (22)Wilkinson puts the points on the scoreboard , is a top class player and is fearless in contact.
Although those 2 looked promising and could be the future of england as johnny starting 2 get older
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This is a tough one, but i think geraghtys excellent run for the catt try was about the only influential thing he did in his half hour on the pitch. Also as ^ mentioned Catt wasnt actually brilliant. Jonny should come back but not at the expense of toby flood who didnt everything pretty well v the french so my back line would be:
10; Flood
11: Robinson
12: Wilkinson
13: Tait-(he needs a chance in his preferred position)
14: Strettle (has been absoluteley fantastic)
15 : Lewsey
with Geraghty on the bench to be used as an 'impact player'
I would also put mark cueto on the bench as he was outstanding in last years series and the wales match could be ideal for his comeback!
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In the long term, Jonny's still an incredible player even after all his injuries - he proved that in the opener.
But for next weekend, Jonny's just taken another knock. Let's not rush him back early when we've got young prospects who can fill in capably. Flood and Geharty can hold the fort for this match.
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As an irish fan i think ashton should stick with Jonny Wilkinson as going to cardiff will not be easy ,Especially after the welsh defeat to italy .England will need an out half which will consistenly kick his points .Wilkinson deserves a chance playing in a team with a pack on the front foot.
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George wrote, "...you are saying after two a brilliant first start by Flood and A fantastic debut by Geraghty neither should have the chance to build on it and at the very least become a competent back-up for Wilko come the world cup."
No Geoerge, I'm saying that Johnny Wilkinson deserves to be first choice flyhalf for England.
Flood and Geraghty should both get a place on the bench, and depending on the circumstances and how the opposition are playing, they should get some game time, replacing Wilkinson and whoever is playing 12, at some point in the second half. If after a few games, they consistently offer more than he does, then maybe things should change, but not until then.
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Flood to start Wilko on the bench.
Some people have mentioned number 12 for Wilko, which isn鈥檛 a bad idea because I believe Cat in the centre is very iffy!
Yes, he played well against a French side with no spark who didn't challenge him at all in defence.
But the Welsh will be moving Hook to stand off for the England encounter and will probably bring Thomas to O/S centre moving Shanks to I/S centre marking Cat.
The only route Shanks knows is straight and he hits hard. So the 35 year old Cat who鈥檚 never liked tackling will have to.
Well Wales are playing off 35%-40% possession so England/Cat may be fine with Mr Cat there.
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What about playing wilko at 15- awesome in defence and with his kicking out of hand, would relieve pressure in tight games. Then play geraghty at 10 with flood at 12, tindall at 13 and lewsey and strettle on the wings. Keep robinson on the bench, would be a great impact sub?
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If Wilko is fit (and I mean fit, not walking wounded "put me in coach, it's just a dodgy hamstring; I'll be fine honest" fit) he needs to be on the field 'cos we don't have the goal kicking otherwise. Kicking wins championships whatever the pundits say. Tindall being hurt may work in our favour; he's too slow and unimaginative and is a bad game away from never wearing the shirt again. Here are my thoughts. Start with Flood, Catt and Wilko. When it comes time to stretch the opponents in the last 20 miuntes, take off Catt and insert Tait on the outside moving Wilko inside. Maybe also give Geraghty another run and what about Farrell? Behind that pack he's have looked a damned sight better than he did in Dublin.
Oh and by the way; make sure the forwards show up again since if the don't it will all be academic.
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Jake West #1 What are you talking about Shane and Toby were excellent Yesterday! I am scottish and am supporting Wales on Saturday but i was supporting England yesterday and i am glad they won but Johnny Wilkinson does not deserve to be on that team if you will think about the scottish game and a knee not in touch ! (johnnys) but toby Flood scored an exceleent try yesterday
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Let Geraghty have a run at 10, Wilkinson at 12.... Wilkinson offers everything Catt does and much much more....well done Catt for Sunday, but i feel his role in the RWC should be a non-playing one. Tait at 13 with Geraghty and Wilko 10, 12 would lead to the most exciting England back-line seen in many years. How can Flood hold down an England place at 10 when he can't hold one down at Newcastle.....
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I think with the way Geraghty played on Sundy against France shows that he should start at 10 with Flood on the bench. It may be an idea to throw wilkinson into the centre with catt, but if not Tait should be put in.
Strettle, lewsey and robinson all had good games, espicially Strettle. So i think it is fine to keep those three where they started. In the forwards, are srummaging was very good but it can be better if Ashton brings back freshwater,Payne should be dropped to the bench .You would probably disagree with me here but perhaps it is time to bring back Lawrence Dallaglio, so there would be more experience in the pack.
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the suggestion of playing geraghty and flood at 10 and 12 and catty at 13 is ridiculous!!
catt has been brought into the team to provide knowledge, creativity kicking support for the fly half and midfield - moving him to outside centre would remove all his strengths from where they are needed and leave us with just a slow outside centre! and having two relatively inexperienced stand offs at 10 and 12 would be a disaster waiting to happen - flash back to matthew tait at 12 against wales!
Thank god "Dan" isn't in charge of our england set up next weekend!
To me there doesn't seem to be too much of a dilema - give wilko another week off - it won't do him any harm, play flood at 10 and bring on geraghty later for some flair. flood proved on sunday that he can perform internationally - started off less shaky than catt!
as for outside centre my vote is for tait, he has pace and creativity and deserves a start in tindall's absence.
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I believe England should start with Geraghty. He has played consistantly well with catty all season at London irish. They know how each other play and will work off each other. it is hard on flood but he should get some game time. as far as wilko goes, he is not ready and his match at london irish a week a go show his lack of match fitness. come the world cup he will be ready to take on carter and the AB's but till then why not give the young guns a run out.
England line up Vs wales
15 Cueto
14 Strettle
13 farrel
12 Catt
11 Robinson
10 Geraghty
9 Ellis
8 easter
7 rees
6 Worsley
5 Corry
4 Palmer
3 White
2 Chuter
1 payne
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No. Keep a winning team - This Six nations should be about establishing the world cup squad. We know Johnny is going to France so give him a rest.
If Tindall is out, play Farrell unless he is also injured - make or break time for him (and I suspect he will have a blinder).
Alternative centre should be one from Tait / Allen / Simpson Daniel.
Nick Easter looks an awesome No8 who needs to be given a run in the side, but bring in Andy Hazel, Jamie Forrester and Chris Jones to cover No 6, 8 & Lock.
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You ask for a big boot, I give you Barkley. Play the same squad but drop Catt for Barkley, play Erinle at outside (he will kill Shanklin, literally). Then drop Easter and play Haskell at eight, you should have seen him agaisnt Quins on Sat.
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Grace wrote: "Jake West #1 What are you talking about Shane and Toby were excellent Yesterday! I am scottish and am supporting Wales on Saturday but i was supporting England yesterday and i am glad they won but Johnny Wilkinson does not deserve to be on that team if you will think about the scottish game and a knee not in touch ! (johnnys) but toby Flood scored an exceleent try yesterday."
Grace, I guess you weren't one of the Scottish fans who stood when Johnny Wilkinson left the pitch against Scotland.
What I'm talking about is a player who has done it all and been through it all for his country. If you are rugby fan, whoever you support, you should be able to understand and respect that.
I'm not denying Flood and Geraghty had a good day, and they deserve all the plaudits they are getting, but 'one swallow doth not a summer make' or as Brian Ashton put it: "It was just one game."
Johnny has consistently proved himself to be a match winner against the best in the world, and in the toughest situations, over a long period of time. As I said in #36, put Flood and Geraghty on the bench, and give them game time, and if they consistently offer more than Wilkinson, then whoever offers the most should replace him, but nothing is proved by a single game of rugby, unless it is a World Cup final and you slot a drop goal in the dying seconds to win it.
People say that winning is all that matters, and that is true, but a winning team is a committed team, and for such a spirit to exist, there has to be trust, not only between players, but between players and the management. If a player is going to put his body on the line for you, he needs to know that you are going to back him, unless you have very good reason not to.
One good game of rugby by Flood and Geraphty is not a good enough reason to cast aside a player like Johnny Wilkinson.
Clive Woodward made this mistake when he dropped Neil Back and others after the World Cup. He brought them back, but by then the trust had been lost, and things were never the same.
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Personally, I think Flood should get the nod again. He controlled the game well, and looked to exploit the French defence when an opportunity arose. If Wilko is fit then put him on the bench. Two reasons for this: 1. If we go to the world cup and Wilko is injured, then having a No 10 with international experience in tight pressure games would be priceless. I think next weeks game will be just that. 2. What kind of message does in send to Toby Flood if he plays very well and is dropped, especially for Geraghty (who also deserves a spot on the bench) however if the game is extremely tight I'd prefer to have Wilko on the bench to come and steer us home. Also one more quick thing, if BA wants heads up rugby and attaking flair, why does he keep picking Tindall?? Any thoughts on any of my comments anyone?
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I don't think there is any point at all playing Wilkinson out of position - having the best number 10 in the world at number 12 doesn't make sense to me. Wilkinson has shown time and time again that he is the best; he is the first choice fly half so, if he's fit, then he should play (obviously if he's unfit then this whole discussion has been for nothing!!).
I remember at the world cup how Catt often played at number 12 outside Wilkinson (particularly later on in the game) - this always seemed to work extremely well, as Catt could take some pressure off Wilko and also added another dimension with his kicking out of hand. For me that's the best option - there's no point playing Wilko at 12, or (shudder) 15.
And by the way, comment 11 - whats this about Wilko not being able to kick out of hand?! Are we talking about a different Wilko here?!?
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I thought it was a really good (not fantastic) but certainly rousing and good for their own confidence, messes Easter, Corry and most of the scrum did far better with even Chuter seen at the breakdown in attack!
now, as for the fly-half debate, for once i agree with Guscott and recommend that Flood should still start because of a more rounded game, then bringing on Gerachty as an impact player (just like sunday!)
However what really has got my interest is Tyndall pulling out of the side, now i haven't been a fan of tindall recently because speed must still be imporant in the backs and he just does not have it these days to break the game line. i dont know about you lot but i would love to see the speed combination of tait/strettle breaking lines with pure speed and with lewsey and robinson coming in to support like bulldowsers it will make a good game! lets hope the ball will finally get out to them!
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I think we need to be looking ahead and not allow ourselves to be sucked into winning one game in the 6 nations.
We know all about Johnny Wilkinson and despite the long lay off he has proved that none of the skills have been lost. So let him stand down from the game against Wales and get properly fit.
Flood, on the other hand, has not been exposed to the international scene to the same extent. Give him some big match game time against Wales as part of his development. Tell him he is on for 60 minutes and replace him with Gerghaty as an impact player so that he also gets the benefit.
See this as an investment in the RWC. Wilkinson will be the number 1 selection but if he is injured (what's the betting on that happening) and in the games against less powerful nations, Toby Flood can be called forward as an understudy.
England are a team in transition. The transition needs to be managed and particularly at 10. Now is the time to experiment and develop players because in 6 months it will be too late!
So - Play Flood, bench Gerghaty and send JW home for the weekend.
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I originally thought that Geraghty would be the better bet. However, I have changed my mind. Flood should start alongside Catt and Tait.
I dont think phsyicality will be so much of a problem. Remember that Wales are more of a pacey lightweight type of team, so we should be able to match them in that area with Tait coming in, in place of Tindall.
I would also suggest bringing in the ever impressive James Simpson Daniel onto the bench. He covers Wing and Centre.
Ashton should stick with a winning formula, particularly in the forwards.
15. Lewsey
14. Robinson
13. Tait
12. Catt
11. Strettle
10. Flood
9. Ellis
1. Payne/Stevens
2. Chuter
3. White
4. Corry
5. Palmer
6. Worsley
7. Rees
8. Easter
Replacements:
16. Stevens/Sheridan
17. Mears
18. Jones
19. Lund
20. Perry
21. Geraghty
22. James Simpson Daniel
Geraghty to come on at some point.
Mears to play a part in the 2nd half.
Jones should get some gametime
JSD on as fresh legs + PACE
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Right if I was Ashton and thank Heaven I am not - I would name Wilko on the bench for Saturday on the basis that Flood and Geraghty need game time to develop into World Class back up Fly Halves - with Wilkinsons track record (as far as injuries are concerned anyway) I would play Flood or Geraghty as the number 1 kicker for the knockout stages (unless of course it doesnt work and we start losing again then bring Wilko back on). As for next week tho whilst Wilkinson has done more than enough to prove he still has it I would stick with a winning combination at least to start - Flood and Geraghty need time to develop into that style that is needed at World Cup level.
With the World Cup itself as I said earlier poor old Jonny has a horrific record of injuries so I would keep him on the bench until we really need him - I have not yet seen the teams we have to play against for the first round of the World Cup but my guess is we will not have to face the big three from South of the Equator for our first few games nor would I expect to face France, Ireland or Wales but like I said I have not seen the line up yet. If Flood and Geraghty are given time now then we can have three fly halves all capable of winning those crucial kicks for us in the World Cup - keep JW in the side but lets try to create a situation where he is not our only fly half. Less Dependancy is what we need. A big well done to all the boys from Sunday tho - it was a good way to come back from Ireland and definately encouragin before the Wales game next week. Keep it up lads but please cut down on the penalties please!
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Why fix something that isnt broken?! Flood played a good solid game so therefore i think he diserves to show us he can do it agian! but starting Geraghty in my opinion would be a huge mistake! yes we can all see he has flare nd excitement but we can also see his kicking is no were near international standad!for those reasons he should be on the bench! as for the centres i think it shoud be catt and tait, tait is fast, creative and a strong tackler! however what has happened to Noon has everyone just forgotten about him?! he scored in almost every one of his apperrances for england and made few mistakes he should most deffinatley be in the squad aswell! as for Wilko we all know what he can do when he is n form. but people need to remember he has only played 3 full games since he has been back in rugby! give the guy a chance to regian his full match fitness and his spectacular playing ability!
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For the sake of continuity why not leave things as they are and play Wilkinson in the centre?
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I think he main success for england was the fact that the english forwards gave england a solid platform. Even more importantly they gave are backs quick ball.
That is what gave flood the room to perform. Im not taking anything away from him. He had a great game. As did his replacement. THe reason wilkinson got stuffed against ireland was down to are forwards. They got stuffed. Aston has a tough job in who to pick. I would have wilkinson in my team every time. He will kick are goals and put teams away. The question is can wilkinson or flood/geraghty play centre.
As for Strettly what a player.
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I think we might see both of them start. Without Tindall I can see Catt playing 13 with Flood at 12 and Gerraghty at 10. A very NZ approach, having a first and second receiver who can really create and guide a game.
Wilkinson needs to recover fully and we need to develop our strength in depth. Blood the young 'uns that are going to back up the big boys in France. A snarling, wounded welsh dragon will not be a walk in the park and will be perfect.
Rest of the team should stay unchanged, possibly Lewsey to give way to someone a bit more on form, Cueto possibly.
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I can't believe some of the posts here - Wilko is not a centre he is an out and out number 10.
The difference between Croke Park and Twickenham yesterday was the forwards - Flood and Geraghty had a ton of ball to play with (and did anyone else notice the handful of awful kicks out of hand by Geraghty before he decided to run the ball??). Anyway - give Jonny that kind of cushion and he would have put France away much earlier than happened yesterday. The flankers protected the number 10 channel yesterday too.
How can you not play Jonny? Don't get me wrong Flood is really promising (I am a Falcons supporter!) and he plays a lot like Jonny does - that neat pop pass out the tackle around the tackler's back - vintage Wilkinson, but give Wilkinson game time - plus since the world cup we have missed players who the opposition fear - Wilkinson is one of those players - you can see it on the pitch - we are short of players other teams don't want to face - why would we remove the one we have?
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how anyone can say that you wouldnt start jonny is simply off their rockers!
how you can justify putting two granted promising young players with 60 minutes and 20 minutes experience between them ahead of the best outhalf to ever grace a rugby pitch with 9 years experience and THE world cup winner is obserd.
i think you could put flood in for Lucey on the wing for creativity and Robinson fullback.
englang fans are loyal and those who dont support jonny ask yourselves are we really english fans?
jonny will start as ashton is an excellent reader of the game!
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Would it be too ridiculous to suggest playing Flood at 10 and Jonny (when fully fit) at 12? He has the experience, his defence is great and he has more pace than Catt (not too difficult).....
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Can't we just keep everyone happy and put Jonny, Flood and Geraghty on the pitch at the same time?
Jonny isn't match fit at the moment, so playing him this close to the world cup would be the wrong decision. Nobody is disputing his class, just his match fitness. Leave it as it is, so he can recover, and give the younger players a chance to see if they can perform consistantly at international level.
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No 59-I'm afraid Wilkinson is most definetely NOT the best fly half ever to grace a rugby pitch-that honour can be gievn to any number of NZ, aussie or welsh fly halves-phil bennett, dan carter, mehrtens, larkham, are or were all better fly halves. Wilkinson was protected by the best pack in the world, so had ample possession to play with. And as for previous posts claiming that the english backline 2003 was the best in the world is just rubbish. The amount of possession, territory and space that they had was staggering, and still managed to play boring rugby.
Following the france game, lets face it, france did their typical thing-once a tournament they screw up big time, and they never turned up this weekend. England were good, but france were awful. Playing away in Cardiff against a welsh side desperate to win some points and avoid a whitewash will be very different to playing a french side who often fail to convince on the road at twickenham. They would do well to play geraghty I feel, alongside Catt at 12 and Tait at 13. Geraghty makes more breaks and would keep the welsh defence more honest.
Hopefully Jones won't be fit, and hook will be at 10! Come on Wales!
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agree with the team set out in post 52, all bar shirts 1 and 16. matt stevens isnt fully fit yet, and that has been shown by the fact he isnt carrying much yet, so payne should start, sheridan isnt fully fit either, what did perry freshwater actually do wrong?
(also as a bath fan im being selfish, because we need stevens at welford road this weekend!!)
jake west, quite frankly you are wrong. everybody rants so much about how the england team should be picked on form and not reputation, and then you come along saying that because of a drop goal JW can walk back into the team.
the wales game is a nothing game from an english perspective, we wont get the 40 points difference or whatever it is, so why not give the chance to a youngster that has done nothing wrong to play again?
what happens if wilko plays every minute at 10 until the RWC starts and then breaks down? hodgson is injured, goode is fat, barkley is turning into a better 12 than 10, and then behind that we have 2 youngsters with no gametime as international 10's, expected to control the english drive to retain the WC.
to copy you and use a cliche, 'when in a hole, stop digging' please admit you are wrong.
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I feel Flood played an excellent game, had a good foot on him and still had the capability to use a good pass into the mix. England needs to learn on a general basis that Jonny Wilkinson isn't the be all-end all of English Rugby. This nation has to give others in the fly-half position a chance. I mean it wasn't any more than a year ago people were screaming for Charlie Hodgson's head, but then who can you put in place of him?
And that lies the problem. Sure England want to go back to winning ways, but there is no shame in losing with an experimental setup, it's when teams AIM to win and then lose, there is no excuse.
It's not like England are going to win the World Cup, the quarter-finals is a realistic aim, but lets try and go for another option than the "great" Jonny Wilkinson, if not for his sake, then for English Rugby.
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The same team as before, except wilkinson/tait on for tindall.
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If you were the welsh defence who would scare you more. Two young lads who have played just over 80 minutes combined of international rugby or a player (if fit)that has beaten every side in the world, has vast knowledge and experience, proven to be cool under pressure. oh yeah and can score points from any where in your own half. It's a no brainer surley.
Flood and Gerraghty are harly setting the premiership alight so why would they on the international stage. these guys need to be in the squad and soak up all the knowledge JW has.
RWC 2011 they will be awesome. Its rugby world cup year the time for rebuilding squads has passed. Lets get our 1st 15 out on the park as often as possible.
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Robk (65) No sorry but that is totally wrong. If you keep putting the dead cert starters out, like JW, you rob the opportunity to develop younger players. Come the RWC there will be no depth to the teams experience. If JW is injured you really are throwing the youngsters into a lions den - and will wish you gave them game time.
The game against wales will be a great day but in the big scheme of things it's also a nothing game. Brian Ashton will see it for what it is and continue with the team unchanged.
Josh Lewsey might be dropped though - he had a bit of a nightmare on Sunday. A nothing kick, a few knock ons and nearly gifted a ball from the self line out - but he got that wrong as well when it went forward!
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What a load of tosh is written in these blogs.
Farrell is not and never will be an outside centre. Neither is Catt. Catt is a great 12 and it's a shame he spent so much time at 10. Farrell has the distribution skills to be excellent at 12, but has yet to prove it. The other options at 12 are JW and TF.
The single best option at 13, with or without an injury to Tindall is Tait. But all credit to Tindall for a fanatastic defensive game again on Saturday.
The practicable options (barring injuries) are
10. Wilkinson, Flood or Geraghty
11. Robinson
12. Farrell, Catt, Wilkinson, Flood
13. Tait, Tindell, Allen
14. Strettle, Cueto
15. Lewsey, Cueto
Selection for Saturday will be...
10. Flood
11. Robinson
12. Catt
13. Tait
14. Strettle
15. Lewsey
With Geraghty, Cueto and Wilkinson (if fit) on the bench
This provides a back four with real pace and a running threat in every position, even Catty if has an old forward to run against.
Yes, Geraghty made a searing break and did some other great work on Sunday, but Flood was excellent before he came off, with some great off loads in contact. Game plan against Wales? Bring off Catt after 60 mins because he鈥檒l be tired, move Flood to 12 and bring on Geraghty. Cueto (as well as Flood and Tait) provides the flexibility to offer cover for the back three and JW will cover 10 and 12.
Man of the match performance from Richards on Saturday elevates him to the bench on Sunday in place of Perry, who is just about as uninspiring as the last Perry that played for England. Plan to bring Richards on early in the second half.
No changes in the pack now, until Vickery and Dan Ward-Smith are back to full fitness. Vickery for White an easy decision. DWS will have to play out of his socks if Easter keeps breaking the gain line like he did on Saturday.
Rees goit the MOM Gong, but it could have gone to Corry, Easter, Ellis, Flood or, most likely (if Brian Moore was a Back), Strettle.
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I agree with Jake West (47) how can we ignore a player like Jonny Wilkinson now all of a sudden? Agreed the other 2 chaps played good games, but my goodness, let them get the experience first before we start comparing them with Jonny, they have time on their side to develop and proof if they can stood the test of time, which Jonny already did!! Not only is he the best no 10 in the world at the moment but as a sportman he is a great example to any young sport enthusiast.My, what a humble, dedicated sportman he is, I am proud , as a South African to say that my children look up to him as a great sportman and hero (and we love our rugby here with a lot of great players we also adore)Give Jonny the credit he deserves, he is a game-winner and England should be proud to have such a great and humble sportman in their team.Let him play against Whales, he deserves it. We look forward to see him play here in our country with the Summer tour, and if you do not want him we will gladly take him because he is a GREAT sportsman and example to everybody that loves their sport!!!
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Its all too easy
9: ellis
10; Gerathy
11: Cueto if fit
12: Wilkinson
13: Tait
14: Strettle
15: Lewsey
Behind a dominant pack backline like this should run in heaps of tries, i see wilko as a better 12 than 10 nowadays, 10 needs explosive pace
harsh on Flood and Robinson but to the bench they go
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It's a surprise to me that JW can be written off so easily. Let's face it the performances of Flood and Geraghty were very promising but it's a bit of leap to suggest either of them is a more complete player than Wilkinson at this stage.
I would use Geraghty from the bench as a replacement for JW.
Flood looks like an ideal 12 to me and Catt is not good for 80 minutes any more so Flood can be brought through in that position quite naturally.
Or perhaps he could play full back?
He has played there a bit and he has all the skills.
10 JW
11 Robinson
12 Catt
13 Tait
14 Strettle
15 Flood
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For some reason everybody seems to be forgetting the cauldron that is the Millenium Stadium. When we were last there Wales beat us to start off their Grnad Slam - why did they win that day missed kicks and everyone was saying 'If only Jonny...' I was very pleased to see good performances from the young guns but I would give Jonny the 10 Shirt if fit and put Flood on the bench. I know that it is a lovely idea to give the youngsters game time to get a strong second string as the AB have - but we need to rediscover the winning habit at all costs. The welsh will be fired up after the end in Rome and very keen to avoid a Whitewash.
Do not underestimate this game.
Now with Tindle out I hope that I may finally get my wish of seeing Tait at outside.
Oh an one final thing what is the obsession with Cueto - never understood it. Leave the back 3 as they are.
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give flood and geraghty as much match time as possible before the rwc wilkinson apart from his injury prone carreer is at the end of his viable playing time, use the welsh match for match experience for the younger players lets face all this talk of england back in the 6 nations is media hype its between ireland and france with ireland just edging france out
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I think the England Team against Wales sdhould be:
15:Josh Lewsey
14:Dave Strettle
13:Mike Tindall
12:Mike Catt
11:Jason Robinson
10:Toby Flood
9:Harry Ellis
8:Nick Easter
7:Tom Rees
6:Joe Worsley
5:Martin Corry
4:Ben kay
3:Julian White
2:George Chuter
1:Perry Freshwater
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If Flood and Geraghty had done just OK on Sunday then it would have been a hard decision. That was not the case even with a pack going forward. What message would you be giving these guys if you drop one of them now! Wilkinson can wait. The youngsters need game time on the international stage. I think Flood should start as his line kicking seems to be better and this will be needed in the first 20mins against a pumped up Welsh team. Wilkinson is not a centre. So that spot must go to Tait. I can't see how you can drop Catt but long term maybe Farrell is a better bet defensively in combination with Tait. If Wilkinson is worth a place for his kicking, which is hard to deny, then the only possible option is at fullback. His passing and kicking out of hand is much better than Lewsey and his tackling is none too bad either. However, I am not too sure he would relish this move but it could be the best option available. It would give you two short guys in the back three which might suggest including Cueto for Robinson for better balance at the back.
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I think the debate at fly half overshadows another major problem area for England. We have stuttered in attack because the absolutely essential outside channel is not being exploited. Sunday demonstrated/confirmed that Tindall and Lewsey are not capable of doing this at present. I know the multiple fly halves experiment has not worked in the past but Flood looks like an OS centre to me and Sunday showed he has the tackle-busting/ball offloading capabilities that Tait doesn't. We need a footballing full back to keep the ball away from danger areas so how about Robinson, Strets and Cueto (a much better footballer than Lewsey) as back 3 with Graghty and Jonny at 10 and 12 respectively.
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Wilko in the squad yes but I would start Flood at 10. Possibly Wilko at 12 but that would be a bit harsh on Catt who I guess will captain again. Flood is the guy on form he played better than Wilkinson did against Italy and Ireland, yes he was great against Scotland but was quiet iin the last 2. And no number 1 I am not a fair weather fan!!
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Whilst I have every respect for Jonny Wilkinson he should not return until fully fit. The pace and physical requirements of international rugby can end careers if risks on fitness are taken too early.
The new boys are more than capable of taking Wilko's place for the time being - my choice would be to start with Shane Geraghty and bring Toby Flood on after half time.
I would also like to point out (as others have) that without the ball it makes no difference which fly half is there. All credit to the back row - phenomenal performence !!!
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JW will be vital in the world cup, particularly for his kicking, let him have a good period of time to get fully fit (we're not going to win the 6N unless there's some more 'quality' refereeing). Then we need a #2 who has confidence in internationals, and isnt just dropped out of the blue. Give the kids game time. They're playing to be JWs #2 at the world cup, lets see who's best under that pressure.
Also, people are saying that the youngsters were playing behind a pack going forward against a team that didn't turn up. Ok, lets play them against Wales. Pressure game, team that are going to come out fighting, now we can see if that one game was a fluke.
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The fly-half and inside-centre positions demand two very different sets of skills & qualities. To say play JW at 12 v Wales is nuts and insulting to our centres. JW qualities are controlling the game at 10 not breaking the line or laying off at 12. I'm sure he'd make a decent 12, very good given time, but more than 5 days please.
Ashton has stated he likes playing players in their natural club positions so I doubt JW will suddenly appear at 12. With Vickery out he'll keep Catt as captain and I hope Tait will be in at 13 as the only change to the backs.
We ain't likely to win the 6N so what better game for Flood and Geraghty to gain experience in a highly charged atmosphere? Let JW fully recover, we all know how good he is when fully fit.
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JW is a great Fly half proved it at every level -up there with Phil Bennett, Latham, Merytons Carter ETC and avoiding injury will start in the WC.
But to me its simple the Wales game is the first warm up match for the
WC (no disrespect intended to Wales)
Honestly Englands chances of winning the 6N are very slim and by KO time on saturday will have gone i believe.
So Give Flood and then Geraghty international match practice in Cardiff and see how they react away from Twickenham infront of a hostile Crowd against a team that will be playing for there lives to avoid a woodeen Spoon - thats the test.
BA should find a place for JW either at Centre or Full Back (in place of Lewsey) as back up (both positionally and in kicking) to give Flood and then Geraghty confidence. (And to hopefully ensure England win-important to keep momentum going)
Give the youngsters there chance and see how there react under real pressure when England are expected to win. BA and the lads themselves will learn a hell of a lot about there mental toughness which is the difference at that level
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IF Johnny is fit he is the best fly-half we have. He is still one of the best in the world and his goal kicking is unmatched. Some people are too quick to forget this. He has been there, done it, and brought the t-shirt. He underperformed in the last few games because he was always going backwards because the forwards were poor. Come the tight games of the world cup we will need his experience and goal kicking if we are to have any chance getting into the last four let alone win it!
Having said this it is still a big IF as to whether he will be fit. For this reason I would stick with with Flood at FH and Geraghty on the bench.
Yes they did perform well, and I am as pleased and excited as the next England fan, but it was only one game, and with the performance from the fowards their jobs were made easier. I say lets give them a chance in a few more games and see how they perform. We will need backup come the WRC so let them gain some experience. Make no mistake, saturday will be a tough game. The Welsh will not want to go the whole championship without winning, and although I really want England to win I can see us getting beat in Cardiff.
On a more positive note it was great to see England perform so well, especially the forwards, I hope they can continue this.
I also agree with others that we should try and fit messers Flood and Geraghty in other positions for their flair and ingenuity.
I think the criticsm of Tindall is a bit harsh, he made some great tackles and the crash ball gives you another option. With him out though Tait should be given a chance at outside centre. If he was given a chance in this position people would be raving about him the same as Flood and co.
Strettle looks immense and now should be a perminent fixture in the side.
I am still stoked that we beat the French, isnt it great!
Lets stay positive as fans and keep getting behind the boys. Swing low sweat chariot!
PS. Guscott really needs to cheer-up and smile for once!
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Adam your team selection is pretty strange considering that Tindell is injured and also that if he was fit probably would be in the running for the worlds worst international centre.
Geraghty should be given a start after his performance. Wilkinson is without doubt englands best outhalf.
I really hope England Dont hype themselves up like they always do, cause Wales can easily beat them.
It was a good performance against a lacklustre french outfit.
Please for once England Keep your feet on the ground you have along way to go.
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I think that Gusscot is being unfair to suggest that Wilkinson shouldn't be picked at all - just a few weeks ago he was raving about the comeback he made against Scotland!
Who to pick at Fly-half is going to hard for Ashton, but if Wilko is fully fit then I would have him first choice and probably Flood on the bench.
The fact that we do have so much choice for fly-half will make the players strive for excellence because no-one is guaranteed to be picked. This to me is the best part because England are picking themselves up after such a long slump and bringing up exciting new players.
I have never doubted that England would pick themselves back up because every team has its ups and downs, but it is really encouraging to see a performance like Sundays against France so soon after their performance against Ireland!
Well done to Mike Catt on his return to England duty as well - he may done some dodgy passing etc at times but he led the team well, and they obviously have respect for him as their captain.
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i think people are misinterpreting this. I don't think anyone is suggesting England get rid of Wilkinson for good, merely for this last 6N game, why take the risk. He can stay with Newcastle, get fully fit with the club and be fresh and injury free for the World Cup. The last thing we'd want is to not have JW at the WC.
The arguments are that Flood and Geraghty could both do a job in the squad or starting 10 at the moment, but few would have little doubt who would start if all 3 were fully fit.
It is excellent that we see some serious competition and differing styles of play at 10.
As some have mentioned, the possibility of Wilko and Flood interchangeable at 10 and 12 is food for thought.
But for the immediate future aka. Wales on Saturday, Flood should start. He had a better kicking game than Geraghty and still made numerous half breaks and offloads from the tackle. Wilkinson to be rested to ensure no more seroius injuries threaten his World Cup.
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Wilko was terrible against Italy and Ireland, wasting the small amount of ball that came is way. He needs game time to find his form- there is no sense in rushing him into the england camp to play 10 or 12 when there are others performing there already.
Tait should have been starting at 13 from the beginning of the tournament, I can't understand where this criticism of him comes from. He is 20 years old, and truly exceptional. Simpson-Daniel should replace Tait on the bench to cover the outside 4.
Flood was the best back on the pitch on sunday, dropping him for Geraghty would be an unnecessary blow to his confidence. Catt did not have his best game, but he has a settling nature in midfield that can only be healthy for the inexperienced around him.
Also, re Charlie Hodgson, all those besotted Wilko fans need to have a real look at the way our fly-halves play the game, the space they offer those outside them. In that respect, Wilko wouldn't make the World Cup squad. Hodgson is a far more rounded footballer than Wilko ever was, and when he returns from injury, he should be welcomed back.
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#86 Sorry Tom Charlie Hodgson is great at club level but i never see him being any better than that. Mentally just doesn't have it when under international pressure. Which is a real pity
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Jake West
I know Wilkinson has done some great thing for English rugby but to suggest that he has "crucially, proven that he can do great things where others are found wanting" is a bit rich.
The young man has played behind one of the most dominant forward packs in history for most of his international career. He has been injured since that pack broke up, he played very poorly behind a struggling pack in Dublin and you seem to forget that he has gone missing on the few occasions that his forward pack didn't dominate (ie a couple of times against France) and in one glaring instance when Catt was sent on in a 1/4 final of the RWC because Wilko wasn't handling things well.
By all means praise the lad, but don't turn him into something he wasn't. I suspect that if he had played behind the poorer international packs that Larkham, O'Gara, Jones etc have played behind he would have struggled big time.
Give Flood a chance. He can't tackle like Wilko but you may find that he can run a game a lot better in more difficult circumstances.
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For those who say Wilko is the best fly-half in the world, you obviously havn't seen Dan Carter.
As for the selection dilemma, how about Flood moving to centre in place of Tindall, Geraghty at Fly-Half and Wilko on the bench?
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Poor Jonny Wilkinson - never has someone so modest been so heavily penalised by other people's hype.
If he is fit, and only if fit, he should play. He needs game time ahead of the RWC better to have our 1st choice - which lets be clear about this he is - fully firing than 3 10s who are there or there abouts. If you want to give Flood - and I believe he is the better choice due to his more rounded game - a run out then do so in the second half.
Wilko is not at his brilliant best but it must be remembered that like BOD for Ireland his strength is that the opposition fear him which creates space out wide. Remember he only had a tweaked Hamstring nothing more and after 3 years out he needs the games.
Also please note those who say treat Wales as a warm up. Don't kid yourselves we need to win to build mommentum, silence some critics, get confidence and mostly silence the Welsh who still harp on about the Grand Slam.
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Would people stop putting flyhalves in the centres or at fullback it is just daft. Is Andy Robinson writing on this blog or something!!
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86 -Tom
Hodgson! Please don't put us through that again. He's had 2-3 years to make his mark for England and he didn't exactly set the world alight with ball in hand, his defence was poor and as for kicking ...is there any international fly half worse at kicking? He may do it for Sale, 7 out of 7 in some games but for England he doesn't; he鈥檚 Charlie Choker, time and time again. How many easy pens and conv did he miss every game? It was depressing. England can鈥檛 afford to have chokers.
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#88.
Any fly half looks average behind a poor pack. Ask Stephen Jones who you have quoted, he is having an abismal season. As was O'Gara until 2 seasons ago (that's 5 terrible seasons on International rugby).
Dan Carter is the best around at the moment, but Johnny didn't win IRB player of the year for having a good set of forwards, he won it because he was the best rugby player in the world. Back in his day he wasn't just a kicking machine, he could open up defences and create, he's not there yet, but he wasn't always just an also ran.
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Wilkinsons has just been confirmed as missing the game on Saturday, but i don't think it would make any difference.
Wilkinson WAS the best FH in the world but he isn't anymore, in my opinion he's not the best FH in england at the moment. He's not the player he was, and I dont think he will ever be. He had two awful kicking games against Italy and Ireland, I cant remeber him making touch more than a couple of times agaisnt Italy and it almost cost us.
I truly believe, as much as it pains me to say it, JW doesn't have too many more seasons ahead of him, his body's shot, i hope i'm wrong but i dont think i am.
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So much is being said about Geraghty. Yes, he did have a positive affect on the game, and sparked a bit of life into it against tiring French forwards. I鈥檇 like to hazard a guess and say that most, if not all of the England backs are capable of making a break as he did. It was quick thinking of him to spot the gap & run at it, but it was as a direct result of Yaschvilli flying up out of the line & leaving a big gap.
Flood gave a very accomplished account of himself, early on when the French back row were out to unsettle him, he never looked phased by them at all. He took it in his stride and looked as if he鈥檇 been playing at the highest level of internationals for years.
A thing to remember is that less than 3 yrs ago he was playing for his local team in Morpeth RFC. So to make such progress so soon, shows how much of a talent he is. He has pretty much become the Apprentice to JW, the Master.
Keep him in against the Welsh at the weekend with Catt at 12, (although he wasn鈥檛 all that convincing for me, too many dropped balls etc, when it should have been him who was the calm head in the England midfield). I think he complimented Flood well as it gave them an option to interchange between 10&12 and 1st & 2nd receiver so for that reason I would leave him in.
But the question is, Who replaces Tindall?
Do you play two from Wilkinson, Flood and Geraghty as 10&12 and then move Catt to 13?
Or do you play One from Wilkinson, Flood and Geraghty at 10, Catt at 12 and then Matthew Tait at 13 (the position he has played so well for Newcastle week in, week out).
In my opinion, the 2nd option is the only one.
In going with the first, You in effect have 3 fly half/organisers on the pitch, which them restricts the running options out wide and I think it may well have an effect off 鈥渢oo many chiefs鈥.
Tait running wide with Josh Lewsey, David Strettle and Jason Robinson leaves one hell of an exciting back line. I would suggest that he would feel he has something to prove after his 鈥渂aptism of fire鈥 in Cardiff a couple of yrs ago also.
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Unfortunately Wilko is out for the Wales clash, which is really disapointing as we could have done with his experience.
Now Wilko is finshed I think Flood should start with Geraghty to come on for impact, just like against France. However I would have to say no matter what people say Wilko is world class. I don't know what jonny has done to Guscott to upset him, but Wilko is still strides in front of the two youngsters.
But look at this way, we have two quality YOUNGSTERS!!! Who better for them to look up to than wilkinson. They are the future and these crucial games against the likes of Wales and France will pay them and England so many dividends!!
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#86
charlie hodgson?? have you been out in the sun too long??
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Debate over - for this weekend at least. JW is out injuried. Sensible caution me thinks by Ashton
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No. 69
Wilko "the best No 10 in the World at the moment"???
What games have you been watching? At the very least O'Gara is better than him judging by their performances a few weeks ago. Then you add Carter, McAllister and a few other S14 fly halves who are clearly better than Wilko at the moment.
Wilko WAS an excellent, but not perfect, player 3 1/2 years ago. He may well be again. Some (mostly English) say he is the best ever, more (mostly non-English) people disagree.
On the basis of his two performances against Italy and Ireland, any other No. 10 would have been either dropped or on their last chance. On merit, he is not the best No. 10 in England at the moment and the 2 that are should be given an opportunity regardless of how well Wilko played against a seriously underperforming Scotland a month ago.
No wonder English sports fans are always disappointed. They build their players and teams up to unrealistic levels only to lambaste them when they don't perform unrealistically.
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England need to grasp the nettle and decide upon a style of rugby that will take the opposition on.
Toby Flood provided enough evidence last Sunday to demand a second chance against Wales. He played with confidence, was positive and linked well with Catt and Tindall.
Sadly, Wilkinson is ruled out, but it would have been a great sight to see him coming on in the second half.
The key to any game is winning the ball, and providing a platform. On Sunday the pack were excellent. Given more time, they will become a world-class unit.
So, please tell me, what has Jeremy Guscott got against Wilkinson? His comments both here, and on screen, can often sound bitter and a little envious.
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Flood and Geraghty were playing against a France team that performed very poorly on Sunday, so any judgement as to how good these guys really are is a bit early at the moment.
Wilkinson has proved time and time again that, when fully fit, he is Englands best number 10, but he is not fully match fit a present, so pick one of the new guys to start and have JW on the bench.
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Tait is obvious at centre and Flood is sure to start if fit.
So Flood, Catt and Tait is likely.
The issue is getting a midfield defence organised for the game. No doubt Wales will have Hook setting up runs by Shanklin, Morgan and the blindside winger through mid-field against any new combination.
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#99
You doth protest too much.
I never said Wilko was an also ran. I never said he wasn't a good rugby player.
He got international rugby player of the year because he was the pin-up boy of an all conquering rugby team and he kicked all the points. He was an important part of a good team but would he have got the award if Martin Johnson had been the goal-kicker... not a chance.
In all his international games he has never been able to open up defences like Larkham, Spencer, Merhtens, Ella, Honiball, Davies and many others.
He is a very good defender and place kicker. Possibly one of the best ever. He was not the best passer, kicker from general play, runner or organiser although he was well above average at all those things before 2003.
He is average at all the above at present. Not so strange after spending so long on the sidelines.
The only people who keep going on about "the best rugby player in the world" (what a ridiculous concept in a team sport with so many different positions needing so many different attributes) are the English who can't help glorifying any sportsman who achieves anything and raising them above all others (eg. Rooney, Flintoff).
You mention both Jones and O'Gara but happily you make my point for me. It IS very difficult to play behind a beaten pack but fortunately for Wilko he hasn't had to deal with it very often, and when he has, he hasn't handled it well. Surely that brings him right back to the pack?
Or to put it another way, it would have been interesting to see Larkham, O'Gara, Jones, Carter, Spencer and many others play behind the England pack 2000-2003.
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With hindsight is seems that Wilkinson was below par in the Italy and ireland games because he was not fully fit. With Flood and Geraghty looking sound there is no excuse for playing Wilkinson when there is any fitness doubt.
For me, Geraghty was not on the pitch for long enough properly to judge his all round game. Flood looked good and I would stick with him.
Lest we forget Wilkinson had his detractors in WC2003 and if you remember Catt was brought into the side-it was said- to chaperone Wilkinson. We all got a bit carried away after the final and the Wilkinson myth industry developed. This has been a problem for Wilkinson (expectations too high when he has played) and all the thers who played 10 in his absence (measured against the unavailable Wilkinson rather than the available alternatives). With two able deputies at hand perhaps we can judge more objectively.
The real story of Englands progress under BA is that we have stopped compiling the list of injured first/second choice players. the list is still lengthy but the results are good enough to avoid us having to comfort ourselves with the "if X,Y and Z were fit ..." conversation.
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What a difference Brian Ashton has made since coming in. He has an idea of how he wants the team to play and he's not afraid to made changes to bring it about. I loved hearing what Geraghty said about his try - hearing Ashton's voice telling him not to kick ball away to the opposition. I can't have been the only one shouting that at the TV for 3 years of Charlie Hodgson.
It was great to see our back row forwards getting to the breakdown fast enough to give us some good quick ball. Corry's move to second row worked well.
The France match was the most encouraging performance I've seen from England in years.
Isn't it great to have two such talented young no. 10's to fill the vacuum left by the often injured Jonny? Good international squads need competition for places to bring out the best in individuals and provide back up in case of injuries.
If Jonny gets fit and stays fit for the world cup, then he's an amazing asset with his goal-kicking and athleticism and whether you play him at 10 or 12 might depend on who else you've got around to fill those gaps.
Wider out, Tindall gets a lot of stick, but is a good battering ram with excellent contact skills, which is what you need at centre sometimes.
Never having been a league fan, Andy Farrell has never looked like anything special to me. If he doesn't have great pace or a great understanding of what to do at centre when, let's not have him see if he can develop those things in our national team at 31.
Tait or Noon should get the nod for outside centre in Tindall's absence, depending on whether Ashton wants the artist or the battering ram.
The back three look great to me.
I'm just looking forward to seeing us play some more real rugby again, instead of kicking the ball away. Thanks for making Rugby fun again, Brian.
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Well the matter has now been decided. JW is not fit and Toby Flood will play.
The debate now will be whether JW should have a place in the RWC team...If he is not 100% fit it would be a wasted place?
I am sure there will be those of you who think that even at 75% fitness he is worth more than many....but I am not so sure. Stop living in the past and face the reality. JW is a busted flush and lets move on.
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I expect the top 2 in the table to win their games this weekend, and England's game with Wales will be massive, with Wales at home, looking down the barrel of a dire wooden spoon tournament.
So....my point is that this will be a challenging game at the weekend, and the result in my opinion will not effect our chances of winning the 6N.
Therefore, I think this could be a good time to experiment with our two young No.10's. I would like to see Geraghty starting alongside Catt, with Flood coming on as the impact player. He picked up a knock last weekend, and it might be a little prudent to put him on the Bench, and let us see what Geraghty can do at this level.
I would certainly bring in Tait at 13, he deserves his this start in my opinion.
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I saw Wilkinson, Flood and Geraghty at the LI v Newcastle game. Wilko is a yard off the pace, Flood was annonymous in the 1st half but played well at fly half in the 2nd half. Geraghty out played both of them, in terms of control and penetration and showed guts and character in 2nd half when Newcastle rallied. He then finished Newcastle off with 2 excellent tries.
Previous bloggers have mentioned goal kicking and I agree you need to keep the scoreboard moving, but that has only become so important because the England game in general has been so poor, so we are clinging to goal kicking (and the coat tails of opponents) when we should be expanding and playing heads up, attacking, try scoring rugby.
We need the courage to play the game, run with the ball and score trys. Yes, we have to kick the goals, but we should not have to rely on them.
Lets face it, if England are scoring trys who cares if the kicker gets 70% to 80% of their kicks.
My verdict, use Wilko if you have no confidence in your team, use Flood if you like to stay on the fence, use Geraghty if you want to win!
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As opposed to having Jeremy Guscott suggesting Wilkinson should not be playing at all on the 大象传媒 coverage of the rugby on Saturday, maybe he should consider putting himself ' out to grass' because as a commentator it is preferable to listen to grass grow!
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I saw Wilkinson, Flood and Geraghty at the LI v Newcastle game. Wilko is a yard off the pace, Flood was annonymous in the 1st half but played well at fly half in the 2nd half. Geraghty out played both of them, in terms of control and penetration and showed guts and character in 2nd half when Newcastle rallied. He then finished Newcastle off with 2 excellent tries.
Previous bloggers have mentioned goal kicking and I agree you need to keep the scoreboard moving, but that has only become so important because the England game in general has been so poor, so we are clinging to goal kicking (and the coat tails of opponents) when we should be expanding and playing heads up, attacking, try scoring rugby.
We need the courage to play the game, run with the ball and score trys. Yes, we have to kick the goals, but we should not have to rely on them.
Lets face it, if England are scoring trys who cares if the kicker gets 70% to 80% of their kicks.
My verdict, use Wilko if you have no confidence in your team, use Flood if you like to stay on the fence, use Geraghty if you want to win!
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As opposed to having Jeremy Guscott suggesting Wilkinson should not be playing at all on the 大象传媒 coverage of the rugby on Saturday, maybe he should consider putting himself ' out to grass' because as a commentator it is preferable to listen to grass grow!
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Wilko and Tindall are out so lets give youth a chance.
I would give Tait a run at outside centre and keep Flood at fly half. I believe Taits pace at outside centre will help us on saturday.
I think that if our forwards can do a job as on Saturday that we will win, but it will be close.
At least in this championship we have uncovered 4 genuine internationals in Strettle, Rees, Flood and Easter. That is 4 more than Robinson managed in three seasons.
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poor old jonny doesnt ever catch a break does he? to be honest i think injuries will be the bane of his life for the rest of his career. i hope to see him make yet another comeback as rugby needs players like him but england should be envied as they have top class replacements in geraghty and flood!
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i love how so many people are making valid suggestions, then ruining any credibility they had by then suggesting things like
"flood on the wing"
"catty at outside centre"
"geraghty and flood at 10 and 12"
"farrel at 13"
seriously people lets think before we speak hey? if theres competition for places, you don't go to stupid lengths in order to play them all, you play the best! magnus lund is on good form but we have a full back three - why don't we play him at full back! rugby doesn't work like that fellas
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i love how so many people are making valid suggestions, then ruining any credibility they had by then suggesting things like
"flood on the wing"
"catty at outside centre"
"geraghty and flood at 10 and 12"
"farrel at 13"
seriously people lets think before we speak hey? if theres competition for places, you don't go to stupid lengths in order to play them all, you play the best! magnus lund is on good form but we have a full back three - why don't we play him at full back! rugby doesn't work like that fellas
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To me it seems like an embarrassment of riches! Think yourselves lucky you are not Scotland fans: we clearly have no idea what to do at 10 or 13 with an incumbent at 13 who even the coach admitted was left in because there was no-one else to play, and a constant rotation of fly-halves none of whom has bedded into the role successfully or with any sign of opening up defences for Dewey or the half-decent wings we have in abundance to pounce. What we wouldn't give for either Geraghty or Flood - if only Ryan Lamb would make up his mind and come play for us, we might score a try.
I think personally that Flood at 10 would be the solution for the Wales game, with Geraghty on the bench. Wilkinson at 12 would not be such a terrible idea for the future though, I don't think. With Catt, Tait, Robinson, Cueto and Strettle I quite like the look of the England backs though I'd like to see Simpson-Daniel get a game.
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Tim Payne can expect to get some hammer. He looked the weak link in the tight against France and he is a chink in the armour.
If the front five cant get an equal footing then the back rows job will be harder and plugging the gaps in midfield will be nigh on impossible for 80 minutes.
Expect to see Payne tortured from the first minute every which way.
Wales havent achieved great results but they are far from a bad team. The weird mixture of results means we dont know much about England added to which this is not the team who beat Scotland or Italy and lost to Ireland.
If Wales can get some aggro going up front , they will take over where Ireland left off.
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I really have no idea what I would do with the stand off situation. It seems unfair on all three of them to have to leave one out of the 22. I probably would have to go with Wilko purely because he'll keep the points ticking over and maybe have Geraghty as an impact player for the second half, based on the fact that he can probably combine with Catt better, playing at the same club.
What do people think of the dropping of Lewsey from the 22? I still think he deserves his place on the bench but maybe it is the right thing to do bringing in Cueto, a proven quality finisher.
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I'm very pleased with the selection for the Wales game although I would expect to see Cueto on the wing and Robinson at Full Back. Tate at 13 is a definite plus. maybe the future is to have Jonny play the Mike Catt role at 12 and have one of the youngsters at 10?
I hope Nick Easter makes it, as he was very good against France and we need a back row with some 'go forward'. I'd still like to see Jackson in for Perry as the replacement scrum half. Harry Ellis is starting at last to look like an international 9 although his pass can be a bit laboured and he does tend to get buried in rucks. There's a touch of the Dewi Morris about his play - almost an extra flanker at times.
I'm just looking for the right combination of grunt up front and gas behind. Strettle looks a real find although it is still early days. If we play something like we did against France we can beat Wales. They don't look too strong up front and provided we don't gift them possession in broked play, I think we can keep them out. They have some dangerous runners but, with Cueto, Tate, Strettle and Robinson, so do we. Of course the two fly halfs also have some pace and Catt is a great reader of the game so itr could be a classic. Here's hoping.
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Wilko is going to be injured so i dnt no really wat all the fuss is about. Flood played well against France and geraghty was awesome when he came on
However if wilko dus come bak, i think flood shud go sub insted of jamie noon, and keep both geraghty and flood on the bench, wih wilko playing
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I think Mac Eddey just hit the nail on the head when he said that maybe Ashton's plan is to play Jonny at 12 in the future.
In an interview on Sky Sports, Ashton said that Cueto was the only person in the squad with a left boot which gives further options....
This would then make sense for JW to slot in at 12. Then 2 pivots at 10 & 12 with Flood & Wilko, interchangeable then the fliers out wide in Tait, Strettle, Robinson, Lewsey, Cueto etc give options for the future
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I see that Wilko is still injured and unable to play. If he was fit I would undoubtedly pick him.
The young guys did brilliantly against France, but Wales is a team who will give away a lot of penalties.
When England have lost against Wales in the past it has always been by very narrow margins, where missed penalties make the difference.
I just hope it's not the same on Saturday.
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As I predicted, the Welsh studied the videos, and were prepared for Geraghty and Flood. Neither was able to make any impact, and Flood was found wanting in the first few minutes.
No one is saying that Wilkinson never makes mistakes or that he is good everytime he steps on the field, but he has proven that he gets it right far more often than he gets it wrong, and that when it really matters, he will do what needs to be done.
People that don't understand how a rugby game is really won, focus on the flashy bits and are impressed by them, but two of the things that Wilkinson does so much better than Geraghty and Flood, is doing the basics well and making the right decisions. There were many reasons why England lost, but those were two of the areas where Hook proved to be a cut above them.
England lost by 9 points. I'm not saying England would have won if Johnny had been playing, but with his stronger kicking game putting England in the right places more often, 3 drop goals would not have been outside his capability, he probably would have got the kick that Flood missed, and he probably would not have got his kick charged down in the first minute.
If that sounds familiar, then it should, because that analysis could be applied to all the games England lost with Hodgson, who is just as good as Geraghty and Flood on the front foot, but could not be relied upon to consistently kick goals and kick to touch.
In truth, rugby games are generally won and lost in the pack, but the backs do more than decide by how much. Hodgson was given a decent platform by his forwards in many games, but he missed his kicks, both for poles and for touch, and that cost England matches. Wilkinson on the other hand, if he has a good day, is capable of winning games even when his pack is just holding its own, by converting pressure and territory into points consistently, and not giving anything to the opposition.
Johnny Wilkinson is a great rugby player, and any team that could select him and didn't, would be foolish. Geraghty and Flood have potential, but potential isn't anything until it is proved by consistent results, and that is precisely what England have lacked ever since Wilkinson was injured.
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