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Italy v Wales player ratings

  • Mark Orlovac - 大象传媒 Sport journalist
  • 10 Mar 07, 09:49 PM

m_orlavac_6666.gif Italy claimed an historic second Six Nations win of the season with a over Wales in Rome.

See what you think of my player ratings.

ITALY:

De Marigny - 6: Solid enough in defence but could not influence the game a great deal in attack. Should have wrapped up Shanklin to prevent his offload for Williams鈥 try.

Robertson - 7: Spirited display. Showed great pace to chase his massive clearance to score at the end of the first half.

Canale - 6: Had a lively start to the game before being taken off with a leg injury on 22 minutes. He broke the Welsh line after just three minutes but his pass to Pratichetti on the wing was poor.

Mirco Bergamasco - 6: Hard running and committed. Produced a nice bit of skill in getting the ball away despite being tackled by Shanklin.

Pratichetti - 6: Eye-catching beginning and almost had a try early on. Saw less of the ball as the game went on however.

Pez - 6: After a strong first half, the Bayonne half-back lost his way in the second period only to redeem himself with the perfectly-judged chip that led to the winning try.

Troncon - 6: Steady without really reaching the heights of the Scotland win two week鈥檚 ago. Will be disappointed he bought the dummy for Rees鈥 try in the second half.

Lo Cicero - 7: Big presence in the front row. Put a lot of pressure on the Welsh scrum and got in a few carries before being replaced on the hour.

Festuccia - 7: Accurate display in the line-out and made a nuisance of himself around the park.

Nieto - 7: The Gloucester man placed a lot of pressure on Gethin Jenkins and played a full part in another Italian forward effort which helped deny Wales so much ball 鈥 especially in the second half.

Dellape - 6: Missed two tackles but the Biarritz second row grafted hard where it hurts.

Bortolami - 7: Led from the front in a true captain鈥檚 display. Never took a step back although did concede a silly penalty for bringing down Alun Wyn Jones in the line out.

Zanni - 6: An agile and energetic display from the blind-side but gave away too many penalties.

Mauro Bergamasco - 6: Consistently one of Italy鈥檚 better performers and his move to centre after Canale鈥檚 injury did not affect him. Scored the match-winning try and should have had a higher mark but the apparent punch that led to Stephen Jones needing four stitches was ugly.

Parisse - 8: Far and away Italy鈥檚 stand-out performer. The number eight was the game鈥檚 top ball carrier and off-loader and he deserves all the plaudits.

Replacements

Zaffiri - 6: Did a lot of good work but handed Hook his second penalty by failing to keep his hands off the ball in the ruck despite repeated warnings from the referee.

Other replacements did not get a chance to earn a mark.

WALES:

Morgan - 6: Brave display from the full-back after making a quick recovery from a broken jaw. He made a fine jinking run and kick-through which almost led to a try for Shane Williams early on but had little chance to shine after that.

M Jones - 5: A quiet display from the Scarlets wing who did not get many opportunities to take on the Italians.

Shanklin - 6: Brave and committed as always. He was alive to Hook鈥檚 chip and held his nerve to offload for Shane Williams鈥 try despite the prospect of two tacklers taking him out.

Hook - 7: Played at inside centre and fly-half and unsurprisingly looked accomplished in both positions. His chip set up Shane Williams for his first-half try and calmly took over kicking duties when Stephen Jones was shaken up. Should not be blamed for the final-minute penalty fiasco though.

S Williams - 8: Was Wales鈥 greatest attacking threat and deserved his first-half try for getting right on Shanklin鈥檚 shoulder in support. Showed his strength in defence by tackling Mirco Bergamasco to stop a try.

S Jones - 6: His losing run as skipper continues. He was not helped by the apparent punch from Mauro Bergamasco which left him wobbly and needing four stitches but he was not able to set the tone in the second half.

Peel - 6: Never gave up and tried to up the pace with some constant sniping. The pack, while improved, did not help him though.

Jenkins - 6: Placed under pressure in the set-piece by Italy鈥檚 impressive front row and although he did not have much ball in hand, was dogged in defence before coming off on 62 minutes.

Rees - 7: Showed great awareness and skill to take his try 鈥 throwing a dummy as the Italian defence opened up in front of him. His line-out delivery was a little wayward but in general he will be happy with his display.

Horsmann - 6: Had a couple of moments of indiscipline early on and although he managed to settle down, he was taken off on 51 minutes.

Gough - 6: Played his part in an improved forwards鈥 display although eventually it was not enough. Unfortunate to be the last man in having to beat Robertson to the ball in the build up to Italy鈥檚 first try.

AW Jones - 5: The Ospreys second row failed to get going in Rome. He was placed under pressure in the line-out and did not offer a great deal around the park.

Popham - 6: Although Popham was tireless in his efforts, he did not reach the high standards he has set himself so far this year. Tackled like a demon though and was second in the stats with nine.

M Williams - 6: Another of the forwards who found the going tough against a fearsome Italian pack. He recovered well from an early missed tackle on Canale and did well to clear up from a Italy kick through.

R Jones - 7: The under-fire number eight came into the game after a quiet start and started to make some yards with ball in hand before coming off late on. He was the game鈥檚 top tackler with 10 and has probably just done enough to keep his place

Replacements

G Thomas - 6: Came on for Stephen Jones and although he gave a physical presence in midfield, he could not swing the game in Wales鈥 favour.

Other replacements did not get a chance to earn a mark.


Comments  Post your comment

  • 1.
  • At 10:26 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • Colin Evans wrote:

I would just like to thank Gareth Jenkins for taking the Grand Slam winning team to Wooden Spoon winning team in 2 years. He said Henson wasn't good enough, well neither is he. If he'd been Englands coach he'd be gone by now after such poor displays and results - need I say more. Bring back Ruddock!

  • 2.
  • At 10:30 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • riccardo wrote:

alessandro troncon, in a interview for the italian television after the match, was really sad for his error on the second welsh try. but the italians can't say anything bad about him because he was everywhere in the field. like parisse and all our front row, he is the best we can offer in this 6 nations. :)

Thanks for finally taking the time to give the Italian players a mark for the game. It looked like in past games Italy was not sending any players on teh field.

This said, I would maybe give an extra point to troncon and De Marigny and Pez a 6.5. sure it wasn;t their finest game, but they still kept their cool for 80'. Troncon;s experience is becoming an extra asset to the team. Hopefully, a youngster with half his skills will pass by in a near future.

Hope we get a nice show/party/rugby feast net week against Ireland.
Ciao from Boston (USA)

Fred

  • 4.
  • At 11:08 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • Eugene wrote:


Why is it Ronan O'Gara scores all the points and never is man-of-the-match

  • 5.
  • At 11:10 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • Gareth wrote:

Perhaps this shows that Englands performance against Italy was no so bad after all, Italy have shown themselves to be a genuinely tough team similar to that of Artengina, with a strong set of forwards and couple couple of genuinely talented backs in the shape of Troncon and Bergamasco, and a competent if unspectular fly-half in Pez. Ireland will have to turn up and play next week or suffer the same fate as Wales.

  • 6.
  • At 11:27 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • tim wrote:

italy played well, however every time wales got the ball cleanly out to the backs they looked really really dangerous, they had a cutting edge that italy generally do not have. Ridiculous end to the game surely the ref should of had the confidence to say we will have 1 last play in the game, this way had wales scored a try, wales would of won, and had they not it would of been a deserved victory for italy, but as it stands if not for the referees cock up it would of been a draw, as that kick would of been a doddle for hook. sack chris white we do not need weak officials at the top level of rugby (or at least severly fine him)

  • 7.
  • At 11:29 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • Tom wrote:

Italy are improving, but Wales and Scotland are deperately poor sides. England were flattered by Scotland and justly humbled by Ireland. France are the true test. Small countries: cyclical performances. Larger countries should prevail. Only England seem to routinely play below par. Why?

  • 8.
  • At 11:30 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • Kiwi Tim wrote:

Wales beaten by Italy,I can't stop laughing,Wales seem to think they have a god given right to win games because of their self appointed rugby history.Can you imagine Italy beating NZ or Aust,there is more show of hell freezing over.

  • 9.
  • At 11:39 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • Fabrizio wrote:

Troncon valutation is a lil poor, he deserves at least a 7, the 2nd Welsh try is his fault but if you re-watch the Robertson first Italian try for example he took the ball off a Welsh and kept it against 3 Welsh..well not bad for a 34 years old

Ciao from Boston!!!! and FORZA ITALIA!

  • 10.
  • At 11:40 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • Malcolm Weobley wrote:

Mark, you are having us on are'nt you! Stephen Jones and Dwayne Peel with 6 and Shaks & Kevin Morgan? Surely not. SJ only a 3. Rudderless, clueless, yesterday's man. Peel's service is awful.Phillips should have been on at half time.And Cockbain.Ryan Jones excellent. Deserved an 8. And Hook. Popham 5 for me and Kev Mogs 7.Always looked dangerous. But the telling figures should have been coach. Gareth J 1. Nigel Davies 2.
Robin Mcbryde 2. Rowlie 4.
Jenks 8.

Its our coaching that is substandard.

  • 11.
  • At 11:46 PM on 10 Mar 2007,
  • Graham Fairfax Jones wrote:

3 on field officials spoiled this game! Sometimes the touch judges seem intrusive, but in this game their silence was shameful! I think Italy are superb, and their progress makes the 6 nations all the more exciting. But today they didn't deserve to win: Mauro (a fabulously exciting player) should have been red carded for that punch, and so would not have been on the field to score the 'winning try', [I also believe his brother should have been penalised for tripping Hook on the race for the touch down!] Take that same Mr White at his word.....(and we all heard him say that there was time for the line-out) well it makes all the difference between a win, a draw and a loss. Before people were paid to do this, we accepted the enthusiasm and commitment in amateurism, but with audio/video used to confirm what was clearly not a try, (Hickie, and allow Wilkinson's winner!)and then not be used to prevent a deliberate puncher being sent off and subsequently making a mockery of it all by 'winning' the game for Italy....... If there is a fourth official, it is because the 3 on the ground can't see everything that's going on! Well the replays showed that punch of Mauro's in technicolour profusion...and he was allowed to stay on! He may be punished later, but he was allowed to stay on the field, and influence the rest of the game!

  • 12.
  • At 12:00 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Tony P wrote:

OK, first I'll state the obvious: Jenkins will have to leave his post after this 6 nations campaign.

With that said, this situation poses one important question. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF REGIONAL RUGBY?

The improvements promised by the WRU should have prevented this from occuring. "2007 and Wales are the holders of the Wooden Spoon".

I'm not trying to suggest that Wales would be doing any better if we had stayed with the club format, but what the WRU did in their great wisdom was:

#to alienate the supporters in the valleys of Rhonnda, Taff Ely and Bridgend (when they removed the Warriors);

#remove the soul from clubs such as Bridgend, Pontypridd and even Neath and Ebw Vale

FINALLY, turn the nation's fantastic culture or grass routes club rugby into a corporate, out-of-town business opportunity (i.e. I'm sure ospreys supporters would go back to club format in a heart beat).

I grew up watching pontypridd at Sardis Road, I played for Penygraig, Gilfach Goch and my school. Wales weren't great back then, but there was more to rugby than international success, It was tradition, it was love, it was pride in our clubs and in ourselves.

Regional rugby has no soul, regional rugby has no passion. We can't love regional rugby, we have no pride in it, it is distant and cold and faceless.

Today I and many others felt nothing when we watch wales' defeat and that is the fault of the WRU NOT Gareth Jenkins

Without the fan base and passion required at club level (or regional for that matter), a few more seasions of this and the people of Wales will just stop caring.

WHAT WAS THE POINT????

  • 13.
  • At 12:20 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Richard wrote:

graham fairfax jones, the so-called trip on Hook on the race to the touch down is rubbish, merely bergamasco trying to get round a turning James Hook,. certainly nothing cynical or penalty worthy.
Chris White said you have 10 seconds left! that means they would have had to kick it out and throw it back in in 10 seconds, as it was still out of play after the 10 seconds. The Welsh know the rules, and if they had any sense would know 10 seconds isn't enough and should have scraped a draw. Not that it would have made much difference. They'll lose to England next week and get the wooden spoon anyway!!!

  • 14.
  • At 12:35 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Steve James wrote:

So this is the Welsh way.There at least 2-dozen teams he
re in NZ that would thrash Wales.
I emailed the WRU before they appointed the Welsh coach and told them to go for a Southern Hemisphere coach,as Wales hasn`t got one.I nominated Messrs Mitchel,Luciforra,Deans and Gatland.No we`ll appoint a Welsh Coach and do it the Welsh Way.
Their backline has two flyhalves get rid of Stephen Jones he`s useless.The pack needs a good forward coach that can put more bacbone into the tight 5.Wales needs a top fitness coach.In fact fire the coach and management team now
Steve James
Welsh Exile
New Plymout
NZ

  • 15.
  • At 12:58 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • tyrome wrote:

personallly it was a good game but wales got the penalty then checked with the ref so we kicked for touch then it was over unlucky for wales somthin to build of for world cup learn nt to kick for touch first half always go for points

  • 16.
  • At 01:15 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Damien wrote:

Okay, i'll try and keep this clean and short but sweet. Steve James, if you think Gatland would have been a good choice to coach Wales then I thank god you are not Irish! ;)

Wales were average at best. However, that doesn't take away from what was a terrible performance by the officials. I can't claim to be unbiased (although that's mainly because I have always thought White is a terrible ref), but decisions like that will always take away from the game. Italy deserved the win, but the controversy surrounding the last 10 seconds will always mar the game (don't even mention the Bergamasco 'punch').

Chris White deserves never to ref a top class game again, if only because he has robbed Italy of a deserved victory.

  • 17.
  • At 01:31 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Damien wrote:

Quote:

Regional rugby has no soul, regional rugby has no passion. We can't love regional rugby, we have no pride in it, it is distant and cold and faceless.

So don't support it then.

None of the teams you mention have gone out of business. You can still support Pontypridd like I can still support Penarth.

Regional teams are a necessary evil. Live with it or not. Your choice, but don't criticise the WRU for trying to keep up with the professional era.

Thank god Wales still doesn't have a system wherby Penarth were playing against the top flight teams on a regular basis and the fact that they played the Ba-baas because they used to stay at the Esplanade Hotel at Easter is just a farcical idea these days.

If Wales were losing games and that 'amateur' system was still in place no prizes for guessing what you would be blaming.

  • 18.
  • At 01:32 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • dab wrote:

Requires a change of coaching personnel :-

Head Coach : David Hasselhoff ("The Hoff") - not on record for knowing anything about rugby but that doesn't matter as Gareth Jenkins doesn't either - At least The Hoff's prescence alone will elevate the team into genuine world cup contenders

Forwards Coach : Jim Scarlett - Will provide much needed substance and aggression to the pack

Backs Coach : Mark Ring - Will get the backs playing with flair again.

Fitness/Conditioning & Motivation Coach : Open to suggestions

Retain Neil Jenkins as kicking coach

The above will be the dream ticket for the world cup

  • 19.
  • At 01:43 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Trystan Prys Davies wrote:

I say we replace Gareth Jenkins with a hand sock puppett. Obviously Jenkins is pushing the players too far with expecting them to turn up to play for games, the new coach will be even nicer and let the players just stay at home and watch the opposition on TV.
Obscure yes, but Ruddock was sacked because he pushed things and became unpopular. Jenkins is trying to avoid this and maintain some kind of "team moral" whatever that is.
No - sock the coach will be very nice to them all. Ahhhh.

  • 20.
  • At 01:46 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Dafydd wrote:

Yes,refereeing went against us on the day
Yes,We seem to have problems up front and the rest of the world is laughing.
Yes we have had some of the best coaches in the world and thrown them away
Yes,the present welsh coach seems a little lost at times.
But will everyone in Wales just shut up!!
Our players are terrified of playing rugby at the moment.The sheer weight of expectation is so suffocating.
If we want to be good at this beautiful game we need to start building now. From the bottom up.
Stop pressing the destruct button and screaming for the blood of a coaches and players whose job is harder then any rugby experience you could imagine.
The great coaches are the ones who take it on the chin, learn and develope and adapt to the challanges of the opponants. We have been sussed out in the style we play. It'll take time for us to adapt to that fact. Italy have one of the toughest packs in the game. We couldnt cope on the day. We will in times to come if you stop baying for the coaches head, moaning about comittment of the players and learn , as a nation, to be constructive, not destructive, The only disaster has been Scotland, We could have beaten Ireland, Were competitive against France but got beat by a better team and were unlucky against a dogged Italian team.We must now aim to improve against England and bring something new into the world cup. everyone wants the past back. STOP! and start, for once , building to the future, game at a time.

  • 21.
  • At 01:52 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • ben wrote:

steve james. Stephrn jones is farfrom shit and has out performed hook in the first three matches and ill think you find that when welsh defense broke under pressure it was hook at fly half not stephen jones. hook is a great offensive number 10 but his defense is poor it was awful against france and was poor before then. he shouldnt get the 10 shirt ahead of jones until he can compare favourably as an all round player. he will do eventually but not yet.kiwi tom i think you will find on wales two previous meetings with australia it was a draw and before that a wales victory so i dont see how an italian victory is that impossible especially when australia have a pack far inferior to any pack italy have put this six nations campaign. so before you start making comments about italy look at what your saying

  • 22.
  • At 01:53 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • anonymous wrote:

this was the most pathetic dislplay of rugby i've ever seen. you call yourselves welshmen? dont even dare put yourselves in the same natioanlity as me. Do you think that Glyndwr or Llwewellyn would have stood for this?! I can safley say that I am above the team that went to Rome today. Do you realise that I dont even play Rugby well? no i didnt think you would.....you are welsh rugby internationals affter all.....apparently. Gareth...I think its time you left my friend, and took the inexperienced Robin McBride with you. It would greatley improve the welsh national game. gooodbye

  • 23.
  • At 01:55 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Tim wrote:

Tom..... Wales and Scotland are NOT desperately poor sides. When was the last time England won away to either of them?

  • 24.
  • At 01:57 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Iolo Jones wrote:

I couldn't agree more. Llewelyn was a good club coach that doesn't have a clue at international level.

And giving Stephen Jones 6/10 is stupid - he deserves 3/10 at best - and that only for his tackling. Let's see if Gareth is finally willing to admit to the biggest weakness in the Welsh side and drop him for England.

And then resign so that a hugely successful manager can take back his rightful place...

  • 25.
  • At 02:30 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • wrote:

Great to see Italy finally making the grade and I agree that Stephen Jones does not deserve a 6/10!

I would say 2/10 at best!

  • 26.
  • At 02:49 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Damien wrote:

Seriously people, get over yourselves.

Dafydd has a point. You are all too far up your own backsides to realise what is involved here.

Skipping through coaches like a dose of salts is not going to do you any favours. Mike Ruddock has gone, live with it.

Jenkins is a great coach, but the catcalling, backbiting and general bitchiness is not helping him.

Wales are a good team, but the pressure on them is ridiculous. As long as Wales play attacking, attractive rugby then I don't see what the problem is. Could be worse, you could be English! ;)

  • 27.
  • At 04:11 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Malcolm Harvey wrote:

Who in their right mind would've kicked for touch with 10 seconds to go?! Take the 3 points and a draw when its on offer, beat England next week and avoid the wooden spoon!

What the ref said is irrelevant. Its the question that Hook asked that is important. If he asked "Is there time left to kick to touch?" then the ref answered honestly. If he asked "Is there time left to kick to touch and for us to take a line out?" then the ref played them.

But credit where its due. Italy deserved their win, just as they deserved Murrayfield last week. But Wales - if they were any good - should've had the game won long before 79:50.

Also - Bergamasco was legitimately moving Jones out of the ruck. It was never a punch. It's a contact sport - get over it. If he's cited for it, its absolutely criminal.

  • 28.
  • At 04:36 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Hugh wrote:

Since Gareth J has been in charge I could not tell anyone who asks what our gameplan is. We are a shambles. But Kiwi Tim you are the disgrace to Rugby not Wales, laughing at us being defeated who do you think you are. You're just a bitter old Kiwi who knows nothing bout the spirit of rugby. Enjoy it. If you knew anything you'd know international rugby is a better place when the Dragon roars. And its not like New Zealand get a raw deal with the refs like we do. Happens every game . . .

  • 29.
  • At 05:41 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Bris Vegas wrote:

Never mind the player鈥檚 scores...what about those for the match officials. As a proud Welshman I might be guilty of focusing on marginal decisions rather than marginal performances, but come on...this is the surely epitome of inadequacy. 大象传媒 report the ref "seemed" to say there were 10 seconds left. No, he "told" the players there was 10 seconds left, we all witnessed televised factual evidence, and in good faith Hook made a brave decision to win the game rather than a mediocre draw, well deserved given the fact that the Azurri should have been playing with 14 men for 戮 of the match. Yet again history reflects the results rather than the facts, and the only issue that remains is who ends up in the dock first, Mauro Bergamasco or Chris Smith? Other nations would not be so humble as to accept this kind of treatment. Is it just me or are others as disgusted as they are again disappointed.

  • 30.
  • At 06:02 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • phillige wrote:

Wales again were poor in retaining the ball, our forwards are not good enough or strong enough to compete at the moment. Scrums are adequate but the lineout is far to hit or miss. These problems could be ironed out by channel one ball and throwing to the front jumper at all times. I also agree that Hook is not ready and Peel appears a little off form, but he is playing behind an average pack (although so did a certain Mr S Jones and he did ok). Anyway we would be kidding ourselves if we won a single game this 6 nations and should be a wakeup call to all in Wales. As regards the officials, they were a farce across all the games and this should be seriously looked into.

  • 31.
  • At 06:21 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • wrote:

Bris Vegas, I'm not sure that history only reports the results. Who remembers what the score was when Wales played NZ in 1978? All people remember is Roger Quittenton falling for Andy Haden's dive and gifting the AB's an undeserved victory. Wales can't expect victory to be handed to them on a plate in Rome. Those days are gone. Italy have beaten every nation in the 6N except England - and that day surely can't be too far off. Bring it on, I say. I am gutted that a match official's blunder has cost us this game - I always want Wales to win, but it cannot be bad for this great sport to see formerly underdog nations putting two victories together in a row in the rugby world's oldest tournament.

  • 32.
  • At 06:37 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • cacciatore wrote:

大象传媒 commentators said six times that Bergamasco will not be back next week because of punch to Jones. Am I the only person in the world who saw Jones clutching his forehead, probably as a result of a collision jus before. Bergamasco麓s tackle was dangerously high, but how a neck tackle can require four stitches to the eyebrow is beyond me.
Home Nations bias of the 大象传媒 commentators is embarassing. Parks kicks cleverly to the corner, Pez does the same and thus reveals the Italian limitations. And so on and so on, ad infinitum.

  • 33.
  • At 06:39 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • jeremy davies wrote:

I am welsh and it is my birthady week , so what happened , the was the best performance so far , but the match officials , strange that the main culpriet was english , well the important one is england and YES we will win and no cheating now , Catt is good but wales with thomas , williams and some good match officials wait and see !

  • 34.
  • At 06:51 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Dafydd2 wrote:

Surely a game can only be completed when an infringement occurs. A penalty kicked into touch is still a "ball in play" and the referee MUST allow the line out. I am not sure that Wales would have scored but am proud of them for trying to win. Chris White should be fired as a referee (at all levels). I am sick of the bias of English referees against Celtic nations.

  • 35.
  • At 07:35 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Andrew Smith wrote:

What a load of rubbish!

The Welsh team yes, but even more so the referee & line officials. How can the linesman miss (i) Punch on Jones (ii) Pulling back Shane Williams off the ball for a certain try & then obviously the last decision by the referee. I'm not one to criticise the officials, but that was worthy of it I'm afraid. What are the 2 line officials there for? & the TMO??

Wales were robbed of a win by a certain Mauro Bergamasco, come on Wales sort him out!

  • 36.
  • At 07:57 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • nick morgan, hong kong wrote:

Monday should see Italy overtake Wales to 8th spot in the IRB World Rankings, which begs the question, why are Argentina (6th) and Italy (8th) are again unseeded in the World Cup? Also, it seems Argentina always get the short straw....last time they were in the group with Australia and Ireland, this time it's France and Ireland....either way, a top 6 team won't progress. Looks like favouritism to two rather weak Home Nations teams.....Thoughts anyone?

  • 37.
  • At 08:00 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Brian wrote:

Chris White is not biased but he is incompetent. Apart from the many off the ball incidents he missed/ignored, Law 5.7 (e) on Other Time Regulations states: "If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead" So for Chris to be right the only explanation can be that the lineout had NOT been awarded in which case he should have blown up before Hook kicked.
On the match GJ says decision making wa spoor. He is absolutely right.His poor decisions include having a forwards coach who is still learning his trade, perserveering with a No 10 lacking in confidence and a scrum half who has lost his way, failing to understand what a balanced back row looks like and many, many more. Apart from the return of injured players and the rotation for Murrayfield he hasn't yet dropped anyone.On the back of 4 straight defeats he now has to make changes for England otherwise he will be seen to be weak and supporting mediocrity. Cockbain, Charvis, Phillips and Gavin Evans (the only inside centre available) must all now start.

  • 38.
  • At 08:01 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Len wrote:

Hook went for a win,when he should have kicked for goal.Throughout the game Wales were poor in set pieces,on the breakdown were panic struck,with basics errors.This has been evident in every game.The skill factor is lacking,and with playing players out of position,on their reputations,has been Gareth Jenkins' downfall.Peel and Stephen Jones can't perform with rubbish ball,neither can Phillips and Hook.So the English next week.Jenkins will have to be ruthless in his selections,throw caution to the wind,or out with the wind he and his management team will be going!

  • 39.
  • At 08:07 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Reef wrote:

Although we've only seen flashes of our enterprising game this 6N, a bit of pragmatism was sorely lacking regardless of White's decision. 10 seconds left, a given 3 points, the wooden spoon looming, take the draw.

Despite a slight improvement in the forwards, we were dominated at the breakdown and Italy ground out a deserved victory. Yes, the officials made a few blunders and Bergamasco lived dangerously but Wales simply didn't do enough to win the game.

To make Stephen Jones a scapegoat is ridiculous. Granted, James Hook offers a potent attacking threat but he lacks the defensive awareness of Jones and was found wanting. So Jones isn't the most dynamic of 10's but the big 0 by our name isn't solely down to him.

The team as a whole have been well below average and we should take this tournament as a harsh learning curve for all involved and build on it. Reshuffling the backroom and senior players will solve nothing. Look at England.

I never thought I'd be calling for Wales to adopt the English mentality of taking the points but our 'live by the sword, die by the sword' mentality lost us the game, nothing else.

  • 40.
  • At 08:15 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Teddington Taff wrote:

No good blaming the coach, Wales just haven't got the players. Unlike New Zealand we haven't got close islands where we can pinch a few Jonah Lomus, so we have to be content with locally bred stock. Wales need to look at a national programme to get quality players coming through. All credit to Italy they played well and exploited Wales' weaknesses - maybe one day they'll beat New Zeaand as well! As for Wales, they will struggle to get past the first round in the World Cup. Heaven help us. Hwyl Fawr.

  • 41.
  • At 08:26 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Dino Nocivelli wrote:

Im absolutely disgusted with the ratings and most of the comments made above. What game were these people watching! The Italian team totally outplayed wales all over the pitch, and De Marigny had a great game throughout. I really dont understand how after Italy winning the game, having 75% possession and territory, you are able to give them the same marks as Wales! Thats just plain ridiculous!
Regarding the 10 second thing, the ref blatantly said they had 10 seconds left, and even average Joe knows that it takes longer than 10 seconds to take a line out. The fact is that Wales should have known this, and anyways, can you really say they deserved something from this game? They were dreadful, and it was Italy who were the more imaginative and attacking team.
So I say forza italia, well done boys for a great performance and victory, which is something Wales dont have either of!

  • 42.
  • At 08:36 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • KiwiSimon wrote:

Apologies to all the Welsh supporters for kiwitim`s stupid, ignorant and arrogant comments. He clearly didn`t pay enough attention to games in the Autumn, otherwise he would`ve known that Italy steamrollered the Aussie pack and the Aussies could only snatch a draw against Wales. Kiwitim, have a little bit of humility and respect mate!

Second, Bris vegas, yes Chris White`s oficiating (and also the TJ Hirabayashi who missed two instances of foul play tho I`ve seen him ref in JPN and he is good enough) was far from perfect and not for the first time. You may get your wish. White might just be on a sticky wicket for the RWC. That story certainly isn`t finished!

But when all is said and done, even tho Wales had a number of attacks, the Italians were the ones, especially in the 2nd half, who played the rugby - just look at this site`s possesion and territory stats - in this case they don`t lie. Wales could`ve had that game wrapped up with the 10 secs to go, but no, the Italian forwards played them off the park for large parts of the second half. I think Johnathan Davies` full-time comment on the commentary part of this site bears out my thoughts on why Wales really lost. On the bright side, the Welsh team will be absolutely seething for the England game. I`m expecting the poor old English to be on the end of some Welsh fireworks in Cardiff!

  • 43.
  • At 08:39 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Derick wrote:

10 seconds is just that - At the end of the day this summed up the Welsh game. We can all point the finger at the officials but you have 80 minutes to win a game. Well done ITALY!!

  • 44.
  • At 08:43 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Andy Mills wrote:

quote Malcolm Harvey "Also - Bergamasco was legitimately moving Jones out of the ruck. It was never a punch. It's a contact sport - get over it. If he's cited for it, its absolutely criminal."

I think you need your eyes testing. Mergamasco knew exactly what he was doing, clearly clenching his fist and aiming a cheap shot straight the face. What on earth was the touch judge looking at! clearly should have been sent off.

oh well, Italy deserved to win as we just didn't play well enough. Hopefully we can pull it together for the England game, can't see it happening though, we've lost all our moral.

  • 45.
  • At 08:43 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • colin wrote:

C'mon Wales don't worry about what's gone, aim for the next game and look on the bright side at least you know (just about) what 15 players you'll be playing next. God only knows who will be on the pitch next week for us.

That aside, the ref wants shooting. I know it's not his job to tell players what to do, but he told Hook "yes" there was time for another play. I wonder, come the world cup, if they will start using the 4th official to his full potential and getting him to overall or at least assist the ref on the field.

  • 46.
  • At 08:44 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Lincs Taffia wrote:

Dafydd's comments are spot on.
We've lost the six nations, however, the world cup is looming what better tactic than making the rest of the rugby world think we have no chance of winning.
Wales Rugby World Cup Winners 2007 - you read it here first viewers! Keep the faith boyos.

  • 47.
  • At 08:45 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Archie wrote:

How can anybody ask us not to be negative????. The coaching team are an inexperienced joke. If Gareth Jenkins does not want to get sacked then he must change his coaching team NOT the players.The only positive I can think of is that it would be a nice change to see either Fiji, Canada or Japan reach the quarter finals!

  • 48.
  • At 08:52 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Nick wrote:

@ Hugh (#28)....

Kiwi Tim's attitude is mirrored by a vast majority of Welsh fans in their regard to the English. You even have a song "...as long as we beat the English" and a fair majority of Welsh fans support Wales and whoever is playing England so whilst I do agree with you that Kiwi Tim is wrong, it's kinda like the pot and the kettle :)

Don't get me wrong, i'm not painting all Welsh fans with that brush as there are many decent ones about, but I know what i'm talking about as I am English and I have lived in Wales for 7 years and some of the stuff I put up with goes far beyond a bit of banter.

Also, stop whinging about the ref. Hook made a silly decision to go for the corner as it was the last play of the day and Wales had already lost 4 out of 15 of their own throws...who said it would've been any different on the last throw?! Chris White did not confirm there was time for a lineout left, he simply said there was 10 seconds left..make what you will of that but Hook should've taken the straightforward 3 points and Wales should've eaten some humble pie with a hard earned draw.

As with all games, refs do miss incidents and the cheap shot on Stephen Jones was one of them..but this happens all matches. Think of Shane Horgan's forearm smash to Dave Strettle which would've left the average man out cold. What's missed on the pitch should be caught by the citings official...everything else is just part and parcel of the game.

Roll on March 17 at the Millennium Stadium...should be a good match but one i'm tipping Wales to win as the Dragon's Pride and the home support should see them through :)

  • 49.
  • At 09:22 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • gransoporro wrote:

Harsh to give a 6 to Canale that was showing something in his 22 minutes.

And his pass was touched by Morgan, so the try should have stand. But, hey, not as glamorous a blunder as the ones against Wales... And difficult to spot to be honest. The other Morgan knock back that became a knock on for Wales, on the other side...

Troncon deserved a 7 only on the work rate.

Zaffiri is a 4.5 because all the precious Hook breaks were born from him standing still. Plus he conceded 2 penalties for handling in the ruck and diving on the ball when we were in good position.

  • 50.
  • At 09:24 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • James Trahar wrote:

In the pub yesterday, people were hoping that we would lose to pile the pressure on Gareth Jenkins, Steve Jones and the rest of the scarlet army.

It has come to this, that the normally optimistic welsh public have been so dis-illusioned by Gareth Jenkins and his coaching team of monkeys that they want Wales to lose.

I hope that if we get to beat England next week the same people don't retort to the "as long as we beat the english" mentality. Graham Henry and Steve Hansen/Scott Johnson had done so much good work in trying to make us professional - I fear this crowd will undo all the good work in half the time.

Hook is an outside half and stephen Jones should sit next week out to prove to everyone one way or another.

  • 51.
  • At 09:30 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Dan wrote:

First of all i must say that i am very pleased to see ratings for the italians, thanks for listening to all those people that asked for it in the past. All in all the ratings seem pretty fair, but if I may put forward a couple of suggestions they would be Troncon 7 Pez 6.5 and Mauro Bergamasco 7.
I totally agree with post 20 which in my mind represent the true spirit of a rugby player/supporter.
Post 27 well said too, Wales ought to have closed the game earlier and they didn't(Italy is no longer a push over this team will make you pay for your mistakes, as proven twice in a row); and IT WASN'T a punch.
As an italian who leaves in England I was disappointed with the commentator, saying that he wasn't sure about the length of the pitch and went to check it himself... What does that imply? can anyone help me out on this one? To Jonathan Davies (a hero of mine in his playing days)I would like to say think a bit longer before you talk on the microphone you are not playing for Wales anymore you are commenting for the 大象传媒 and surely you must have some duties as journalist towards information.
Last but not least, and believe me I've waited eagerly for this moment, after all the excuses i heard and read about on how England played poorly against Italy, how the Scots gifted us the game, how the ref gifted us the victory yesterday, well to all those people I say that Italy has deserved everything it has got from this 6 Nations so far every single bit of it. One day you sceptics will run out of excuses and will be left with the only option of taking it on the chin pick yourselves up and get on with it...
In the true spirit of rugby I would like to offer you all fellow bloggers (BAR NONE!!!) a virtual pint of beer...
And if I may suggest a good use for the woodden spoon to the Welsh....well you can always make a nice risotto you'll need it to stir it.
Thank you, have a lovely week-end.

  • 52.
  • At 09:33 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Russell wrote:

Kiwi Tim - post 8. There's no-one more carping than the Welsh nation against our own team for such dreadful defeats over the past two year - and after a Grand Slam, but Kiwi Tim's comments are puerile. The Kiwis should win the world cup easily with all their imports - but then we've been saying that for many years and many tournaments. Is Kiwi Tim ready for another major underperformance as the NZs choke again?

  • 53.
  • At 09:37 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Trayls wrote:

Well it's Sunday Morning and the dust has settled on another Welsh defeat. Gutted!
Italy didn't do anything special but they showed a lot of passion and belief. The latter certainly lacking from the men in Red.
After Rees scored I thought that would be it, march on to victory, but it wasn't to be. Italy fought back and pinched it in the end. It's a shame that the officials marred their historic victory.
Chris White and his henchmen had a shocker, but at the end of the day, if we'd secured better posession/ teritory and taken our chances we should have won the game.

We're just a side playing without confidence at the moment.
We've got nothing to lose now so lets get out there next week and enjoy a game of rugby.

Kiwi Tom is an idiot by the way

  • 54.
  • At 09:39 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Mark Arnold wrote:

It's time for Alan Phillips, Pickering and the rest that saw Ruddock leave consider their positions.

That was a witless and tactically unaware performace.

Again the ball carriers were few and far between - and as much as I prefer Peel, and he is the better player - Mike Phillips would have been the tactically better choice for this game, where forward domination and possession was the key. Charvis or Jon Thomas should have been brought in to the back row in place of either Popham or Ryan Jones (or both), and Cockbain for either Gough or AW Jones.

There's no point in blaming the ref and his linesmen, and the 'punch'. While they were factors, Italy dominated possession, and deserved to win. We are a shadow of the side that won the Grand Slam.

  • 55.
  • At 09:41 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Dai wrote:

I have watched those last few moments and after the penalty was awarded the conversation was as follows-
James Hook " How long left?"

Chris White "10 seconds"

James Hook " Have we got time for the lineout?"

Chris White "Yes"


Now dont get me wrong, I am not saying that Chris White cost Wales the game, but what happened there is wrong. As has already been said, it has marked a good Italian victory with contoversy and is now a huge talking point instead of how well Italy are now playing.

Wales didnt lose the game in those final few seconds, they were beaten by an all round better team who played well to their strengths, something Wales didnt do.
Had they gone for the Kick at goal, and got it, it would have been a draw, would that result really have been any better? I dont think anybody would have anything better to say about Wales than they are now if they had of drawn.

So Wales are played 4 lost 4. They havent had a hammering from anyone, have played some good rugby in patches, and could have sneaked at least 2 results with a little more of the rub of the green/bounce/technical nouse/dare I say luck!

Italy have come on greatly, no longer the whipping boys, and the championship is better for it.

Personly, I think yesterdays officials performed very poorly. Chris White has to either publically explain his view of this incident, admit his mistake, or not take charge of an international again.

As for Malcolm Harveys comments about Stephen Jones being legitimatley being moved out of a ruck, you need to be legitimatley put right about that, and if the person that did it where to get into trouble, then that would be criminal.
Whatever you think of Stephen Jones, no-one who plays rugby deserves that, it has no place in rugby, so Malcolm, you get over it, you are a disgrace to the game if you think that sort of action is acceptable.

Well done to Italy.

  • 56.
  • At 09:44 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Little Luca wrote:

First of all, thank you for providing ratings for the Italian players as well. Secondly, please, try not to take anything away from our rare victories: I'm sick of hearing "Scotland handed three tries..." or "controversial win over Wales"; the Azzurri, with their own strenghts, put themselves in the position of winning both matches, full stop. I'd like everyone to remember that, in eight years, Italy lost 33 matches out of 39: 95% of these matches were lost fair and square, without the shadow of a doubt... no one talked about Italy gifting the opponent with tries or mistakes (which was far too often the case). In very few cases Italy could put the blame on the referee (Ireland vs Italy '06 springs to mind), even though the referees have often seemed to watch the Azzurri a bit too closely.
Let us give all this a rest. Please welcome a newly found Italian team and join us in congratulating the Azzurri. Thanks so much to all those who've already done it.


  • 57.
  • At 09:53 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Alex James wrote:

At post 13:

If the ball went into touch before 80 minutes was up, then they could take it at any point (provided there wasn't an excessive delay).

The regulation which covers this is 5.7.(e):

"If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue."

  • 58.
  • At 09:54 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • chris wrote:

The referee said that there was 10 seconds left, not that he would wait until the welsh forwards finally ambled up to take the lineout. He was on the mike to the video ref for a good 5 seconds before he blew the final whistle by which time the hooker wasn't even in place. Well Done to Italy good to see that its now a true 6 nations championship, shame it was ruined by the finish.

  • 59.
  • At 09:55 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • wrote:

8 years of building a winning Southern Hemisphere style of game in Wales has been undone in 2. I'd like to thank our coach and his staff for all their hard effort, a true acheivement and a memorable year.
Trying to suggest that the ref had something to do with taking away victory was pathetic. Does he not look at the posession and teritory stats.

  • 60.
  • At 10:00 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • I Wilson wrote:

not the words of a welshman, but equally applicable here to G Jenkins.

"you have been sat to long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, i say, and let us have done with you. In the name of god, go!.鈥
O Cromwell 1653.

  • 61.
  • At 10:02 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Martin Johnston wrote:

This result was always on the cards - Wales lost to poor Scotland side who in turn lose to an improving Italian team - why should we be surpried Wales lost?

  • 62.
  • At 10:06 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Macsen Wladir wrote:

Some interesting comments posted above. Let us not forget that Hook is an emerging player - we need to nurture him and not rush to push him into a position that is adequately covered by other players (although it does not help if they are not on the bench). No blame to him for the line-out fiasco, blame whoever was the captain after Jones left the field.

Problems with officials are nothing new, this is an area which MUST be sorted out before the world cup or it will descend into a fiasco - when Wales "lost" to Italy 4 years ago we were denied 2 apparently legitimate tries from quickly taken lineouts that appeared to be taken correctly. Against Ireland this year we suffered from an interpretation of the rules that had a strange non-european slant (strange we were not playing in the tri-nations were we?), we will end up like poof-ball if we are not careful. There are one set of rules worldwide, lets have a uniform interpretation.

We must stop looking back - there is little point in sacking the management team at this point, we would end up completely rudderless like england, but without the backing of their money.

  • 63.
  • At 10:08 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Jbob72 wrote:

The ref didnt cost us the game, the 79 minutes and 50 seconds before the penalty cost us the game,

Time to stop the excuses Jenkins

  • 64.
  • At 10:16 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Emiliano wrote:

the victory of Azzurri is very important for the rugby cause now in italy every news talks about it and this sport becomes more famous,for the children too...

don't forget that if england wins against france and italy make an other miracle with irland ,next week, italy wills have the same points of irland france and englad...it should be nice 6nations!

GO AZZURRI!!!!

  • 65.
  • At 10:28 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Ceri wrote:

Just to confirm Dai's comments- White was directly asked if there was time left for a lineout, and he said Yes, so poor decision by White (I have the gane recorded, and have checked this morning to be sure).
And White and linesmen were poor, saying this does not excuse another poor Welsh performance.
Having said that, I agree with some comments above- Wales have been poor but not stuffed, and could easily have one 2 of their games, and conceivably any one of them, which should give us some hope, either for a post Jenkins future, or one in which Jenkins finally gets some productive game plan.

  • 66.
  • At 10:30 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • ben wrote:

malcolm harvey since when did clearing out involve a fist and a hooked arm? an under 12 team would know thats not how you do it. if thats how you would clear out your team would rarely win a ruck. well unless your team has any sense and keeps you out of it

  • 67.
  • At 10:41 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • dan wrote:

We're getting what we deserve, whatever happened with Ruddock behind the scenes is none of my business but any country who sacks a coach after winning a grandslam in his first attempt deserves everything coming to them. Once again we are our worst enemy.

Hook made a brave decision to kick for touch under guidance from the ref and I congratulate the positive spirit and belief the boys had that they could still win the game.

All in all, Italy deserved the win and to be honest, isn't time we accepted the 70s are over and that we are a very inconsistent team with no right to turn up and win because of what happened in the past?

  • 68.
  • At 10:44 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Stephen Pontyberem wrote:

The decision at the end of the match to firstly give Wales an opportunity to go for an attacking lineout and then to be rescinded was a poor decision by Chris White. However, the Welsh had three options:
1. Go for goal and at least salvage a point in this poor 6 Nations.

2. Go for an attacking lineout risking a time issue.

3. Play a set piece tap penalty keeping the ball on the field and therefore maintaining play.

Either way Wales thought they had an opportunity to go for the line and despite being passionate about Wales come rain or shine....when the ball was kicked into touch the time had gone and the fourth official would have told Chris White that fact. All in all Wales had flashes of brilliance but others of poor decisions.

One final point, what was the official on the line doing when

a. Stephen Jones was punched. (camera shows him looking directly at the incident). Given the severity of the punch, I believe the 4th official MUST give a call. The whole game would have changed at this point.

b. When Kevin Morgan was tackled off the ball when there was a possible Welsh try scoring opportunity.

The line officials seem to have lost their purpose aside from giving touch calls and conversion attempts.

Overall Italy proved their worth in the 6 Nations with this controlled game and the one against Scotland as well as a strong performance against England.

The issue now is what we do now....and that is Wales vs England next week...we MUST step up and prove our boys are capable and we have a place on the world stage. Cymru am byth

  • 69.
  • At 10:52 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Sparky wrote:

Dear Hugh, You think you've got it tough! I lived in Wales till I was 19 but have now been in England for 38 years and am still being told sheep jokes. It's a bit much as my father was English and my mother's family were originally Irish.

  • 70.
  • At 10:59 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Ed wrote:

Why are the four officials only called in when there is a try to be awarded. The game is so fast these days, the four official should be able to comment on any aspect of the game. How can you expect a the person running the line on one side of the park to see possible obstruction on the other side. Where as the people sitting at home or in lucky at the game then see it replayed out on the large screens.

As a second thought, Wales have some of the fastest back in the game, but three times they had to be called back for forward passes when in try scoring positions. These error alone cost us the game.

  • 71.
  • At 11:00 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Fawksey wrote:

I think nation, the team and the management should forget the reefing decision. Italy were the better team having around 70% of the possession 鈥 you can hide from that.

I was happy at the time, that G. Jenkins was given the job 鈥 but I am now lacking confidence in his ability to take this team forward.

We all watched with glee (well me anyhow) at the situation with England and Andy Robison only a couple of weeks ago. How this has come back to haunt us!!!
Saying that, we need to give our support to the current management team and player set, in order for them to turn this around. If G. Jenkins and the team have to spend the next week defending themselves from criticism 鈥 the preparation for the England game will suffer and thus the performance.

Personally, I want to see G. Henson back concentrating on Rugby and forming a partnership with Hook at 10 and 12. That鈥檚 what we should be building towards for the World Cup.

Come on guys lets get focused for England.

  • 72.
  • At 11:00 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • allan dewar wrote:

Rugby players of international level should know that the clock does not stop for line outs. 10 seconds is not enough time to take the throw, surely if wales were so desperate to win rather than draw they should have kept the ball live by running the penalty. They cannot blame the referee for their own rashness.

  • 73.
  • At 11:03 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Chris Warner wrote:

I think the simple fact is that Wales lack any ball carriers!

We showed that we have a hugely talented set of backs, but the forwards need to go forwards to generate the space for the backs.

Also by going through a few phases close to the ruck we would spend more time in possession, having 7 minutes of possession in the second half was criminal!

  • 74.
  • At 11:33 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • taff wrote:

problem with welsh rugby is when a person produces the goods he is a world beater, when he falters he is worthless and needs sacking.

you have to ask your selfs how many coaches since kevin bowring have actually been consistent.

henry?
hanson?
ruddock?
jenkins?

who are coaching the most versatile team in the world now?
has the team always had that level of talent?
was the talent developed before or after the coaches arrived there?

jenkins came in to the team in a very bad time, the team was a terrible standard last year, this years performance has nothing to do with how good or bad jenkins is, its got everything to do with the breed in the team.

he can only build a good team if the players are around him.

harp on about gatlan and other coaches or who ever, when coaching ireland he was just a media hound, the main man with the team back then was o'sullivan. that is over 10 years with the team.
you cant send a poor team to world beaters in the space of a season.

yea 05 was a grand slam year, how many grand slams have they had in the last 20 years?

"its no good giving the horse oats the day hes going ploughing"

  • 75.
  • At 11:39 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Richardc Llewellyn wrote:

Welsh pack need to work as a unit, only way i can see this happening is by bringing in a welsh forwards coach that has real steel - they need to be fitter, harder and much more aggressive.

Stephen Jones is a good marshall of the game, but behind a lack lustre pack, any flyhalf would struggle. At the moment though Jones lacks confidence and stands far too deep, the Welsh backline has the opposition defence is in their face as soon as they have the ball.

To sack Gareth Jenkins in world cup year would be a a contentious move, i think we should have a director of elite rugby much like England

  • 76.
  • At 11:49 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Oddsized wrote:

To post 52, Can you tell me please which imports NZ have? I do know of a few that were not born in NZ but their parents moved to NZ when they were between the age's of 2-5yrs Old

Do the Welsh team have any players in their team not born in Wales? and lived a large part of their life not in Wales? Say England? Australia? New Zealand? South Africa?

Just wondering

  • 77.
  • At 11:53 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Dave J wrote:

As a Welsh fan, I don't think we got a great deal of luck with the refereeing yesterday. Shane Williams was tackled before he got the ball when he could have scored a try - no penalty given. Bergamasco should have been off the pitch for that punch on Stephen Jones. And the utter farce at the end of the game. It's about time there was a video committee active during the game - with the Bergamasco incident, the game could have carried on as normal while they examined the replays. Then after 5 minutes they would have found the punch and Bergamasco could have gone.

But luck is part of the game and this does not excuse the poor Welsh performance. It would be worse than a disaster if we lost to England next game.

  • 78.
  • At 11:55 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • jbob wrote:

Peel box kicking costs us points game after game, s jones has had 1 good game in his last 6 , hook made more breaks yday than jones has in 2 years.

Have to wonder why charvis isnt there
and the shambles that is our set piece makes you wonder what mcbride is doing !

  • 79.
  • At 11:58 AM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Dai wrote:

Re comment number 4-
Is Ronan O Gara realy that good that he deserves Man of the Match award for a game he was 2500 miles away from!!!!! (Tounge in cheek)

  • 80.
  • At 12:02 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • jbob wrote:

Jenkins is a great coach, but the catcalling, backbiting and general bitchiness is not helping him.

if he is such a great coach why has he
a) failed to assemble anything like a half decent back up team (just what teams have mcbride and bennett helped coach/prepare to get fit to justify their position in the national team set up
b) has he failed to shore up the set piece
c) persisted with a kicking game which is frankly awful
d) actually won a game against a major nation

other than the above he is doing a great job

  • 81.
  • At 12:09 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • wrote:

Not sure if it's been said but blaming the ref is futile. Confirmed after the game by player interviews (Shane Williams?) The ref said "you've got about 10 seconds, time for a quick line out...", now that to me means a quick lineout - not the faffing about that ensued. That said very brave decision to refuse the draw: Hook would surely ahve got the kick.

Well done Italy. another strong performance.

  • 82.
  • At 12:11 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Johnny Default wrote:

Hi, French Johnny here.

I've got a lot of time for Gareth Jenkins. I used to admire the style and guts of his Llanelli teams that could compete, if seldom win, against the top English and French sides despite the great difference in resources. But clearly he must take some responsibilty for Wales' primary fault: the failure so far to control anything close to a majority of possession.

I want to qualify that by pointing out that he doesn't necessarily have the right players where it counts: when free from injuries, Wales have top class players at numbers 6-15 (and even some good cover). But the front five is no more than moderate as a unit. Gethin Jenkins is good, but the front row is only as good as its weakest link and neither Rees nor Horsman (still less their alternatives) are cutting it. Wyn Jones, Gough and Cockbain are not bad players, but look at the competition they would face at lock in e.g. France, Italy and Ireland.

But this doesn't get Jenkins off the hook. Wales are not keeping possession partly because they are not seriously trying to: they haven't got either the confidence or the patience to run through a lot of phases. Yes, quick ball through good backs can win you games, but a) it's high risk, b) ball is inevitably turned back over to the opposition more quickly and c) all Wales' opponents now know what to expect. Running the ball through half a dozen or more phases creates its own pressure and anxiety in the opponent and can create the space for the backs to thrive. Wales' defence has actually been good both around the fringes and out wide, but NO TEAM can hope to make both 120 tackles a match and to hold out for the whole 80 minutes. The solution? Hang on to the ball more of the time so it's your opponents that have to cover the space and make the tackles!

All that said, it would cause a lot more damage to fire Jenkins than to keep him. Stability brings its own reward. Jenkins is the opposite of daft and he will find his own solutions, given space to breathe. Let me point out that e.g. Bernard Laporte sustained some bad losses in the 6 Nations early on and has been groping his way through trial and error towards a well-functioning system for 7 years - and he's not got the finished article yet! Certainly, Wales should not fire anyone without having a better alternative in place. Throw another coach on the fire and we'll be having a similar discussion in a year's time about, oh I don't know, Phil Davies. I still believe that Jenkins is a good coach and I also do recall periods when coaches as successful as Clive Woodward, Warren Gatland and the aforementioned Laporte have either royally stuffed up or have been perceived to do so.

And finally, let's not forget who's responsible for this Welsh mess: a clique of self-important players who strongarmed Mike Ruddock out the door in order to chase rainbows with Scott Johnson.

  • 83.
  • At 12:15 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Dai wrote:

Allan Dewar no 72
You are right about the clock not stopping for lineouts, but after a penalty is awarded, if you kick to touch, the ball is still live and so the lineout takes place, and play stops when the ball next goes dead, unless of course there is another penalty. Its in the laws mate, Chris White got it wrong-fact.

  • 84.
  • At 12:20 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Kean Vernau wrote:

I am an England supporter. England are in transition and for various reasons will be at best average for some time.

I am somewhat bemused by some Welsh supporters criticism of their team and coaching staff. Wales were depressingly poor against Scotland. However, they were unlucky to lose against Ireland (they played the best rugby), outscored France by 3 tries to 2 in Paris and were beaten by a buoyant improving Italian side whose forwards will give any side a tough examination.
It is not that long ago that Wales were being beaten embarrasingly easily by England. Wales are now a genuine match for any country in the Northern Hemisphere, something that can only be good for rugby in general. Wales have come a long way, often play entertaining quality rugby, and have some quality players who would easily get into the England team at the moment. Be patient and support your team; don't get drawn into factional distractions; the results(and position in the table) are not an accurate reflection of where the team is. I will be very (pleasantly) surprised if England manage a win against Wales in Cardiff. Enjoy beating the old enemy if you do.
Absolutely well done to Ireland, easily and consistently the best team in these islands for several years.

  • 85.
  • At 12:24 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Barrie wrote:

My principle problem with this Welsh side is the selection. On each ocasion, when asked who do I think will win, I have had to say, "wait till we see the team". I have not agreed with any selection this 6 nations. Back row unbalanced, half-backs out of form, second row lacking "dog". Players I think should have featured include Dafydd James, (particularly in the first game) Mike Phillips, Colin Charvis & Brent Cobain. If Henson had been fit he should also have been included---a man for the big ocasion. I am also at a loss to know what the "game plan" is---& is there a plan B?

  • 86.
  • At 12:25 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Steve Griffiths wrote:

The game generated lots to talk about but most of it is about the poor performance of all the officials. Up to yesterday I was a fan of Chris White as a ref. He tends to let the game flow and talks to players. This time collectively the officials made a serious mess and must take collective responsibility. Linesmen missed things and who is acually in charge of time keeping - is it the ref or the fourth official. Sadly like some others I think Chris White has to be called to account for the errors and taken off the international panel. His "player" rating would hardly register. This would also send a signal to other refs that poor performances mean you loose your place just like the players on teh field.

  • 87.
  • At 12:36 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • matt wrote:

Congratulations Italy...you thoroughly deserved the win and I thought the forwards were awesome, especially Parisse...There is no doubt the stats are in your favour, congratulations. I thought Wales were pretty poor...how the team has gone from heroes to zeroes I do not know, where is the fearless attack we were used to seeing??? I think the front row are unfit, the line out is not functioning and the 9/10 combination hasn't worked for several games now....I cannot see what Stephen Jones offers your game...the place kicking is solid, but lacks distance of Hook/Henson. He has now proven himself incapable of leadership. Mike Phillips is definitley the form scrum half and must be wondering what he has to do to be in the starting XV. It's not the coaches that are the problem....it's the selection of players in key positions. Italy had Troncon and Pez pulling the strings well, O'Gara and Stringer for Ireland are orchestrating....and Skrela and Ellisalde...definitley the pair of the tournament....Wales have top names at 9 and 10, but they aren't performing. And cut out the errors!

  • 88.
  • At 12:58 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • R.Turner wrote:

Tony P(12)I totally agree with you,whilst the top division needed to be reduced,regional rugby was never the way to go in Wales, a country with no regional history.Furthermore, what was the point of regional rugby when foreign players are continually imported anyway?(good scrum halves at the ospreys but how do they improve Wales as a team?).The alienation and non interest of the vast majority in Wales now, in regional rugby, also means that Wales have few good young players coming through.The cycle of defeats for Wales on the field prevents any generation of interest via that avenue also.To top it all off the man whos idea its implementation all was,came out last year and said that it wont work.Welsh rugby,at present,is a shambles on and off the field(what other nation would not fully support their most successful national coach for a generation,instead choosing to let him leave the position),but I'm sure if they manage to beat a mediocre England side,everything will be considered to be fine again.No wonder Wales never compete against the strongest sides in the world.

  • 89.
  • At 01:02 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • handy-legend wrote:

What a joke some of these biased comments are. Lets just face it- ITALY were better on the day.

All this talk of Wales having more talent etc before the game- sounds pretty stupid now doesn't it. People can complain and make excuses about how teams play, but a win is a win. Welcome to reality Wales- get your set pieces sorted and no more of this annoying 'Welsh way of playing' as it will never work until your forwards sort themselves out!!!!!!! .

  • 90.
  • At 01:08 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • R.Turner wrote:

Its funny that good sides seem to get the decisions in their favour whilst poor sides and their supporters constantly moan about how unlucky theyve been.The possession territory stats were firmly in favour of the Italians, Wales, as against Scotland were fortunate Italy dont seem to know what to do with the ball once it leaves their forwads.The Welsh team,for whatever reason,is simply not performing, can't blame the ref for that.

  • 91.
  • At 01:08 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Benjamin Legg wrote:

Why all the clamour for Hook to replace Jones at 10? Jones has been a good fly-half for Wales over the years and despite the hype over Hook, generally out-performed him over the first three matches. Hook had a good game yesterday, but has generally been playing at 12 for both club and now country, and remember, his try setting-up chip and breaks during the second half were while he was back at 12 and Jones had returned to the field. Of course Hook may eventually gravitate more towards the 10 position, when he has valuable experience, but then again he may decide that 12 is his best position anyway. Besides, do Wales have a quality 12 to slot into the position if Hook were to move to 10, especially as Henson is injured? Much better to keep Jones and Hook in the same team in both their most customary positions as they are both quality players.

  • 92.
  • At 01:37 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Aled wrote:

I have respect to every New Zelander because their country is similar ways with the passion and of course the rugby.But for all of them that have slagged wales off in this blog saying that they have dozens of teams that can beat wales is rubish! New Zeland rugby isnt the same as it used to be because of all the players.They all now come from Fiji, tonga and samoa. joe rocothocko,sivevatu .....(cant be bothered to write more as all of the new zeland team are foreigners)

  • 93.
  • At 01:47 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • owezz wrote:

I personally think get rid of gareth jenkins and stephen jones,jones is just not in form and until he is he shouldn't be in the squad and for gareth jenkins he is just not getting the game plan and possitions right like hook does not work well with shanklin in centre and should play outside half or he doesn't play.

  • 94.
  • At 01:49 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • matt wrote:

Whatever the quality of Jones and Hook....if you are going to play the wide rugby that you really need to play 10 and 12 need to be complimentary players, at the moment you have 2 10's running the game and it's not working. Jones is NOT world class....he's just the only fly half you had for the last 5 years.

  • 95.
  • At 01:51 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Stan the man wrote:

Poor old welshies got smacked again. It is aways good for a laugh. But in a way it is a bit sad. They are the only team in the six nations trying to play rugby. the rest settle for the boring muscle game that is sadly dominant these days. It is true even in the Super 14, hence the rise of the muscle head South Africans.

This should suit the English as they pioneered the technique of winning by putting the opposition to sleep with dullness of their play. But they are so hopeless they even lose when most teams are copying their game. There is no hope for the Poms as they lack even a single player with any real talent.
Now that is worth a bit of Homeric laughter.

  • 96.
  • At 02:01 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • ceri parker wrote:

"OK, first I'll state the obvious: Jenkins will have to leave his post after this 6 nations campaign.

With that said, this situation poses one important question. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF REGIONAL RUGBY?

The improvements promised by the WRU should have prevented this from occuring. "2007 and Wales are the holders of the Wooden Spoon".

I'm not trying to suggest that Wales would be doing any better if we had stayed with the club format, but what the WRU did in their great wisdom was:

#to alienate the supporters in the valleys of Rhonnda, Taff Ely and Bridgend (when they removed the Warriors);

#remove the soul from clubs such as Bridgend, Pontypridd and even Neath and Ebw Vale

FINALLY, turn the nation's fantastic culture or grass routes club rugby into a corporate, out-of-town business opportunity (i.e. I'm sure ospreys supporters would go back to club format in a heart beat).

I grew up watching pontypridd at Sardis Road, I played for Penygraig, Gilfach Goch and my school. Wales weren't great back then, but there was more to rugby than international success, It was tradition, it was love, it was pride in our clubs and in ourselves.

Regional rugby has no soul, regional rugby has no passion. We can't love regional rugby, we have no pride in it, it is distant and cold and faceless.

Today I and many others felt nothing when we watch wales' defeat and that is the fault of the WRU NOT Gareth Jenkins

Without the fan base and passion required at club level (or regional for that matter), a few more seasions of this and the people of Wales will just stop caring.

WHAT WAS THE POINT????"


there was no point in regional rugby, it hasn't improved our status in rugby. The teams fan bases r no greater as most people like myself will never support a region. Im a ponty fan and believed that it was a disgrace 2 allow llanelli n cardiff 2 remain while forcing the other big teams to join forces, at the time ponty were the best team in wales, the best supported and the last welsh team to make a european cup final. in my opinion the best course of action would to be to have a 2 division celtice league without the regions, goin back 2 the old format. to improve our rugby we need top level rugby in the valley's, and none of us valley people are goin 2 travel 2 cardiff or swansea 2 watch rugby. OLE OLE OLE OLE PONTY PONTY!

on the game yesterday, we showed glimpses of expansiv rugby that we are gd at but i feel our pack yesterday didn retain ball 4 our backs 2 play their part in the final result, apart from the exception of matthew rees and ryan jones who i thought played is best match 4 wales in this 6nations the rest of the pack was distinctivly average. charvis needs 2 b back in the squad. As 4 the backs against england i believe that jenks isn goin 2 drop sj but i believe we need alfie in the team, get sum passion back in the team.

as the phonnics once said, "As Long As We Beat The English!"

  • 97.
  • At 02:17 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • john wrote:


How can Gareth Jenkins take the Grand Slam winning team to Wooden Spoon winning team in 2 years and not take any of the blame.There was no shape in the side this is the same side that two years ago looked like becoming great, and now we are the Laughing stock of the world.

  • 98.
  • At 02:20 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Kenny wrote:

At the end of the day Italy were better than Wales and deserved their win.
The decision by the ref at the end of the game was wrong. Anyone who has played rugby or watched rugby knows that even if their is 1 second left before a penalty, the resulting line out has to be allowed to be taken before full time can be blown (the next time the ball goes dead). But we are talking about 10 seconds at the end of the 80, Wales had 79.50 to make their class show and win the game.
The more worrying thing about the Welsh team at the moment is that most of their team would get in all the other 6N teams yet the coaching staff can't seem to get them to perform.
They have the players to consistantly win the 6N but are bottom without a win. Their must be a problem within the welsh camp with the coaching set up.

  • 99.
  • At 02:29 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • grouchmonkey wrote:

Re "Scotland and wales are NOT desperately poor times, when did England last win away against either of them?"

- next week, mate.

  • 100.
  • At 03:42 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • R.Turner wrote:

Kenny(98) who in the Welsh team would get in all the other six nations teams?A few maybe, but face facts, at present Wales really aren't that good.People can blame the coaches and the refs all they like, but surely the players have to take a degree of responsibility too. If this season is anything to go by most Welsh players would be lucky to even get in the Scotland team.

  • 101.
  • At 04:00 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • SAM wrote:

IS EDDIE BUTLER ENGLISH ?

We know he's not !?!?!
This guy has got to be the worst commentator in the history of rugby.
The English can do no wrong whoever they may be playing, get someone less bias.

  • 102.
  • At 05:14 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • David wrote:

True the end of the game with the ref was harsh but like kenny said walves had 79 minutes 2 show off their world class skills and didn't show them. Italy desevered the win

  • 103.
  • At 05:15 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • jim wrote:

Objectively I can't see why the player ratings are so high. It seemed to me that Italy played better rugby for the majority of the time and if they are rated at 6/7/8 then most of the Welsh players should have lower ratings.
Hook's decision making or lack of it at the end should take him down to 5.

  • 104.
  • At 05:44 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Luca wrote:

Now, listen. I undestand that the referee's decision was abrupt to the Welsh. But thet weren't just quick enough. Moreover: shocking how they could hope to win with a late lineout after such a faulty performance throughout the match. See here:

Minutes in possession

ITALY WALES

11:59 First half 10:10
15:48 Second half 07:42

Minutes in opponent's half

24:31 First half 18:22
29:02 Second half 15:29

END OF THE STORY.

Poor 大象传媒, you are such bad liars.

Forza Azzurri.

  • 105.
  • At 06:23 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Sam wrote:

Anyone who plays or has played rugby knows that if you go into a ruck with your fist clenched your not going to make any difference! Mauro Bergamasco knew exactly what he was doing, his fist was clenched and he cocked his arm! It was a blatant punch! If your trying to get someone out of a ruck you always grab their arms or their legs!!! He should get at least a month suspension for that! It was absoleutely disgraceful!

  • 106.
  • At 06:56 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • griff wrote:

Let's stop making excuses, it's time for Gareth Jenkins to resign and let someone else have a chance. He has clearly not been able to get the best out of almost the same team that won the Grand Slam. If we stay with the same coaching set up for the World Cup, Canada will be favourites to get the second qualification spot.

  • 107.
  • At 07:35 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Julian wrote:

As an ex amateur ref myself - regarding the 10 seconds. It may take more than 10 seconds to complete a lineout - but it is reasonable to assume that 10 seconds is enough time to at least throw the ball into a lineout. The ref had indicated to Hook that there was time for that - and that then means the ball would be in open play at the point where the 10 seconds expired. The final whistle is not blown until the period of open play ends - allowing the time for a possible try. The ref did not even give 10 seconds - but blew the second the 4th official was heard to overrule him on the comms -and before play had resumed - there is also a rule to state that if you have awarded a penalty - then play cannot be terminated until that penalty has been completed in full - and for kicking to touch this means that the lineout has been completed - so Wales were denied there penalty opportunity - and White to his credit has subsequently admitted that he made a mistake. Hence Hooks decision was the correct one and Wales have a right to feel agreived.

  • 108.
  • At 07:40 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Julian wrote:

As an ex amateur ref myself - regarding the 10 seconds. It may take more than 10 seconds to complete a lineout - but it is reasonable to assume that 10 seconds is enough time to at least throw the ball into a lineout. The ref had indicated to Hook that there was time for that - and that then means the ball would be in open play at the point where the 10 seconds expired. The final whistle is not blown until the period of open play ends - allowing the time for a possible try. The ref did not even give 10 seconds - but blew the second the 4th official was heard to overrule him on the comms -and before play had resumed - there is also a rule to state that if you have awarded a penalty - then play cannot be terminated until that penalty has been completed in full - and for kicking to touch this means that the lineout has been completed - so Wales were denied there penalty opportunity - and White to his credit has subsequently admitted that he made a mistake. Hence Hooks decision was the correct one and Wales have a right to feel agreived.

  • 109.
  • At 08:34 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • phillige wrote:

I had to laugh today, when the 大象传媒 commentary team (the Davies & Guscot show) stated that Chris White is one of the top refs in the world. They obviously were watching a different game (please also, lets not go down the road of he's English and thats why we lost). Anyway, watching the England / French game, Mr Caplan was superb, consistant with his decisions and let the game flow and only penalised when neccessary. I have also reflected on our game and whilst the jury is out debating the merits of Mr Jenkins, the players (especially the forwards and half backs) also have to take responsibility, just as the English did today (they also blooded 2 fine young players). They were a different team up front and took the game to France, unlike the Welsh Forwards who do not seem committed or strong enough. Anyway, whilst i'm number one for the pride and passion for my country, lets remember no one has died and whilst it is to quote more than a game (its life or death). Lets get behind all the Welsh contingent and help them believe in themselves again and lets lay off the insults and give them this week to prepare/re-group and salvage some pride against England.

  • 110.
  • At 08:38 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Steve Jones wrote:

Well said Little Luca!
Italy have improved steadily since joining the 6N and now are a real force to be reckoned with - no one can expect to have an easy win against them anymore. Wales lost because they deserved to - no other reason. We have the same players who won the grand slam 2 years ago but they are not performing or are not selected. GJ and his team have very few chances left to convince us they are up to the job

  • 111.
  • At 08:48 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • andrew wrote:

The ref did get it wrong, but the game should have been won long before that.
I come from mid Wales (Llanidloes)but live in the Midlands. I have visited Cardiff for the Australian and Irish matches and will be there for the England one.
I wonder sometimes why I go to all the expense and bother. I love rugby and I love Wales and Cardiff, but we need a coach to give us a team that on a scale of 1 -10 (1970's = 10) is around 7, not 4 as at present.
I hope we win on Saturday, but for the first time in donkey's years I am not have friendly 拢10 wagers with my English work colleagues.

  • 112.
  • At 09:09 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Magic Mike wrote:

Seriously, take a look at all the posts on this page bar maybe 3......... and all attack the players who try their damndest for their country! Why are we attacking people who, on the day, where beaten by a better side? I agree, the match officials were awful, but such things happen! And may i remind all the english bloggers that a year ago when Ireland beat you with a dodgy shane horgan try, u were all screaming unfairness and bias! i think it is great Italy won, i like to see competitive rugby matches not steamrollerings! and for all the people who arent welsh and are kicking us when we're down, how many matches have we won, against Italy, and said, well done, u played well! when u deservedly beat us, u laugh in our faces? is this really necessar for a sporting game? Grow up, and respect your opponents for playing! Well done Italy and England, unlucky Wales and France!

  • 113.
  • At 09:14 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • William wrote:

I have to agree with message 36, it's about time Argentina got treated fairly by the IRB and got seeded above Wales and especially Scotland for the WC. This in-house mentality of the IRB in looking after the so called big 8 when it comes to the WC, is out of date and unfair.

It's a total joke and a shame that 3 of the top 6 sides in the world have to compete in the same group i.e. Fra (2) Ire (5) Arg (6).

While the weaker Scots and Welsh are more or less guaranteed 2nd place in their groups again.

  • 114.
  • At 09:46 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • gransoporro wrote:

Post 112:

William, Scotland will be in the same group as Italy and the All Blacks. Are you sure they have been guaranteed the 2nd place in the group? Is there something you know that you want to tell us?

  • 115.
  • At 10:24 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • geoffrey harris wrote:

It鈥檚 said that a team does not become a bad team over night ,quiet right鈥.it鈥檚 taken a few weeks, but Wales have got there .
My opinion is 鈥hat sometimes a team does not 鈥減lay鈥 for certain coaches . Food for thought

  • 116.
  • At 10:32 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • John wrote:

Just awful! No ideas in attack or defence. James Hook is not internatioal standard at the moment. He's too light weight. Have we forgotten already that it was him losing the ball on an attack that set up the Robertson try! Time to try something different against England otherwise we are going to have a record defeat on our hands!!!!

  • 117.
  • At 10:59 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • pigeon fly wrote:

malcolm harvey my advice 2 u is go get a new pair of glasses from spec savers. if that was not a punch i will eat a leek raw and i hate leeks

  • 118.
  • At 11:36 PM on 11 Mar 2007,
  • Jack Cresci wrote:

I'm a Welsh-Italian teenager, born in south Wales, and bred in the hills of both Camarthenshire and Bardi. Rugby's always been a big part of my life, so obviously, I'm thrilled to see the Italians winning 6 Nation Games against tier 1 teams. Wales lost for 2 reasons, their pack was easily outclassed by their Italian counterparts, but the Welsh back had that edge and speed which the majority of the Italians lack (Apart from Mirco Bergamasco, Kaine Robertson and Nitloiga, even if he is injured) The second is dodgy ref's decisions. Mainly the early Mauro Bergamasco tackle on Kevin Morgan, an early tackle before a try scoring pass. But it's as they say, you play behind a beaten back, you're in deep trouble. Even the Aussie forwards had trouble during the Autumn Internationals, and their outstanding backs only just managed to keep the Italians at arms length at 80 mins. All in all, pleased with the Italians, pleased with Shane Williams , but incredably fobbed off with Mauro Bergamasco and Chris White.

  • 119.
  • At 12:19 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Phil James wrote:


Much of the debate in this thread has been about the last 10 seconds.

What a nonsense, what an excuse those seconds can prove.

We were a poor second in most departments espcially between the crucial 9 and 10 positions.

We need to adress a quicker service and if Peel and Jones can't deliver then let's find a pair who can.

Jenkins is patently out of his depth, who made the crucial 10 second decision, who was acting as captain, where do we go from here? All questions he cannot answer.

He has coached a Llanelli team and then a Scarlets region to win what?
He has surrounded the Welsh squad with his West Wales toadies and the result is that the ref is to blame.
No change there then!!

Who can take his place, the obvious candidate is Mike (grand slam) Ruddock. Still this is Welsh rugby and whatever the reasons for his departure there will be no going back.

So what we need is an adveterous coach who will adress the problems in the scrum, who might even think of Adam Black of the Dragons who performs week in and week out. Who can see that Hook is crying out to start an international game at 10 and that Charvis is playing out of his skin.

If you can't think of a coach who can accept this I am available on a short term contract.

I await the call to arms.

  • 120.
  • At 08:09 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • wrote:

The talented Welsh team of 2 yrs ago was full of ball carriers,off loading in the tackle creating space for the runners and letting the ball do the work.
Today we have the same set of players,no ball carriers etc.
Perhaps the present coaches should watch the replays of the Grand Slam season and learn,if the don't Wales will have to qualify for the 2011 World Cup !
Stuart Miles

  • 121.
  • At 09:50 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Idris Evans wrote:

why do some people keep going on about Ryan Jones - the bloke is the most overated player for a number of years. He has had 2 good games in the last 2 years , thats all yet people and the media keep going on about him . What did he do on Sat ? Yes he run forward with tha ball a few times WHICH No 8s are supposed to do !!!!
Does it not occur to you all that no wonder other teams laugh at us - we have players who are ok, no more than that and we claim that they are word beaters.
Before you claim that a player is this or that actually watch them during the game and see what they do - Ryan Jones doesnt do anymore than any other No8 - FACT.

  • 122.
  • At 10:13 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • AC wrote:

I personally would Give Bergamasco (no.7) a 8/9. I think he is consistantly one of the best opensides in the world. He would play in any team. He covered well to deny Williams a try from Morgan's kick through. Yes there is a darker side to his game which should not be lauded however a 6 for what was anouther all action performance is unjustifiable.

  • 123.
  • At 10:20 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Ac wrote:

I'm sorry i have no sympathy for the Welsh team - they were devoid of leadership at a crucial momment. There is no way that they could have won with 10 seconds spare. This discusion as to whether the ref was right is immaterial. The welsh lost their heads and control and any sensible captain in that position would say go for the posts. 30 secs then maybe the corner but to think that 10secs is long enough is ridiculous - plus I was dubious that it was a penalty anyway.

  • 124.
  • At 11:09 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Andy in Dar wrote:

English fan feeling very good after this WE. An excellent 6N champioship means things are still wide open at the top to win and at the bottom for the wooden spoon. Good for Italian rugby, I hope for the day when they thay fill 50,000 seater stadia - what about the San Ciro? The way this has been played will mean that Wales could react to England the way Engalnd reacted to France after their thrashing by Ireland. Tasty fixture. Most of all hope Kiwi Tim post 8, eats his words later on this year! Time the Tri nattions let in Argentina - maybe the Kiwis are afraid...

  • 125.
  • At 11:14 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Rodders wrote:

This was not about the last 10 seconds no matter how ridiculous that turned out to be nor even the 3 blind mice which were the match officials (are wales ever going to get a break from ref / touchline?)

Take one look at Stephen Jones before the game when the singing started - I have never seen such an obvious case of someone suffering from stress. For the sake of the individual, ignoring club or country give this guy a rest. it doesn't matter about his performance, don't break the guy.

Also why does GJ have sub's when he refuses to use them? Dwayne tried hard but surely bring on Mike P with 10 min's to go if only to make the italians face a new challenge. also AWJ looked done in after 70 minutes, why couldn't Cobain be brought on to add some steel to a fading welsh pack?

Italy deserved to win. With thier limited game plan, they play effectively and thier coach out thought us tactically. Like many others, I believe the coach must start to take responsibility for this season, imagine what the italian coach would be able to do with the players we have available

  • 126.
  • At 11:28 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Japro wrote:

Why all the hassle for the ref..??? he was technically correct!!. He cannot award a lineout if time is up, end of story, Hook should have asked "is there time for the line out"??, the ref clearly said 10 seconds to go, so by the time Hook kicked the ball into touch it was 80:03, game over, the ref CANNOT then award a line-out, the line-out following a penalty is NOT part of the same play...!!! get a grip!!

  • 127.
  • At 11:39 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Dirty Flanker wrote:

Little Luca, I agree with you. Italy deserve the credit for this win. Its great that they are no longer the whipping boys of the competition. It must be a great day for fans like yourself who have put up with so many losses (95% you say). So enjoy it.
As a rugby fan I'd like this great game being spread to more countries and I also like the fact that the Italians play with a passion. However theres no need to be punching people in the face and ye have to watch your discipline.

That said I can imagine it is very hard for the proud Welsh fans to see their team go from Grand Slam winners to Wooden Spooners in the space of 2 years.

The question was asked by a few posters why the Regional structure was set up? I'm not Welsh so correct me (open invitation for pot shots) if I'm wrong but did it not have more to do with the financial situation of the smaller clubs and to increase the Welsh clubs chances in the European Cup. Yes / No? Anyone

The Provincial structure has worked extemely well for Ireland and I believe having all our best players playing at home has helped our nationals team chances. I can only imagine that it hasn't worked for you guys because of poor implemetation by the WRU. What do ye think?

  • 128.
  • At 11:45 AM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • David wrote:

The Welsh players ratings are to high. While the stats show Italy dominated the stats board in possession & territory the fact is that Wales were 7 points up with the wind behind their backs as the game went into the final 20 minutes or so. Any professional team would have won that game by going through the phases in the opponemts 22 and even perhaps pinching another 3 points. Unlikely the Italians were going to run the length of the pitch & their kicks weren't gaining much distance. But naivety & poor discipline from Wales conceded the entire length of the pitch giving the Italian their chances - and well done too. Stop whingeing about the ref - Wales lost this game.

  • 129.
  • At 12:15 PM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Loafer Steve wrote:

Who would have put money on going into the final round of games with Italy still having a mathematical chance of winning the title!?

  • 130.
  • At 01:14 PM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Roger wrote:

Guys. Stop tearing yourselves apart. Success goes in cycles. You will come again. You've been unlucky this year whereas - not taking anything away from it - you were lucky in winning the grand slam a couple of years ago.

I'm an English supporter but your performance against France was at least as good as ours even though we won and you lost and you certainly gave Ireland a tougher game than we did. We all know you will rise to it on Saturday and if you win you'll go way over the top in the other direction. You do have problems. So does everyone else.

The Italy game highlighted that the issue over timing must be sorted out whatever the rights and wrongs of what happened. Chris White was shafted by TMO Geoff Warren repeating "Chris I have time." What was he really saying. I don't know. Chris White thought he meant blow the whistle now - and that's an order.

I do know that there is too much coaching from referees during the game in a bid to keep it flowing a la super 14 - which is maybe the famous 'Welsh Way' too. And it's clear that the laws of the game are so complicated that players feel the need to keep interacting with the referee to check what they can and cannot do because they don't know either.

Chris White is the best, most sympathetic and most intelligent referee in the tournament IMHO. And he said nothing that should have misled anyone. For an experienced player like Gareth Thomas to agree to go for the corner rather than take the points was just plain stupid and just one reason why he should never be captain.

  • 131.
  • At 01:51 PM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • ian wrote:

A summary of the weekend's rugby from a welsh exile:

Scotland decided to turn up again for the 2nd time in the tournament. Good to see.
Ireland showed their grit to prove that they have been the most consistent team of the 6 nations.
Italy (with Troncon) were deserved winners against Wales. His retirement must be put back another few years.
Wales can feel unlucky again but need more power up front to gain more possession. Having great backs is no good if they don't have the ball.
England are getting there but the 1st half was poor in terms of quality and they should feel a tad lucky that France decided not to turn up. But they are getting there.
France. Shambolic against England but the signs were there from previous games. Mignoni must start in future.
As a reference to equivalent football teams, here is my shot

England = Blackburn Rovers Battling but lacking in all round quality.
France = Liverpool. Quality but will never be top of the tree. Lose the big away games when they should win.
Ireland = Chelsea. some world class players but destined never to win the European Cup.
Wales = West Ham. Some quality players but no real punch and to much expected of them. Living in the past.
Italy = Sunderland. On the up after much time in the doldrums. Can get better.
Scotland = Wolves. glittering past but that was a long time ago. No long term improvement foreseeable.

  • 132.
  • At 01:57 PM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • georgegraham wrote:

I usually support Wales in this fixture, but Tom Shanklin's pre-match comment about Wales being ' a superior Rugby Nation to Italy 'was arrogant in the extreme and he deserved to be on the losing side for making it.

  • 133.
  • At 02:27 PM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • steve wrote:

I love it - we (the English) have to put up with the sort of dodgy decisions that the Wales fans are bleating about all time.

We all know that the whole World hates us - and we love it. We just accept that in a 50:50 situation the decision will always go against us. Think back to the World Cup final in 2003 - how many dodgy decisions against us - but did we give up - NO!

Our players remained focused - didn't panic and in the end the right result came up - but only because the ref could not do anything about it.

Chris White gave an honest answer to the WRONG QUESTION. Wales fans - move on - it's over. Have the dignity that your team did on the day.

  • 134.
  • At 03:07 PM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • Rohan wrote:

A very disappointing performance from the Wales team again this weekend, and this year looks our darkest for a long time. I for one will still be going to next week's match, not becasue I expect or even hope for a win against England, but because the boys need support. They're feeling the pressure and I don't really think that attacks on the players or the coaching staff are going to help matters at all.

  • 135.
  • At 03:45 PM on 12 Mar 2007,
  • simon wrote:

Jenkins seems to be coaching the Welsh players a certain way, which appears to be a losing way.

How the players train is usually highighted on the field during a match. You just have to look at England. They get rid of the coach with no brian and bring in a fresh pair of eyes and they start winning again and start playing their best rugby in about 5 years. Just like when Ruddock first got the hot seat.

But theres one thing that Ruddock did and that was to pick the players who were inform. I doubt that Ruddock would play jones at 10 the way he's playing.

He had two sides and played players like Sweeny who dont have the reputation of S.Jones but when fit can be just as good. this is where the now big named players in Wales came from.
Theres not much difference between any of the Welsh players in the profesional ranks exept maybe Williams. so just pick the inform players.

As soon as Jenkins plays the inform players and a style that the players enjoy the better the welsh side will become.

  • 136.
  • At 04:06 PM on 13 Mar 2007,
  • Immigrate?? wrote:


It's even more frustrating watching Wales at the moment because you know that the team we have is far better than the performances. How different (players)is this team compared to the 2005 Grand Slam winning one?

We just seem to lack togetherness, especially in attack. Our play seems too easy to defend against. It doesn't have to be overcomplicated- I'd just like to see the ball taken in to contact on pace drawing in defences for a few phases, creating space for the backs. And we have the flair in the backline!

We don't seem to be doing the basics of rugby. If we managed this we would look like a different side.

Are my comments too simplistic??

I genuinly feel this team is good enough to win the six nations rather than the wooden spoon, but at the moment there's something severly wrong in our gameplan and/or mindset.

For the Wales team to turn it around there couldn't be a better game- V's England at home in Cardiff!

Welsh Rugby Victim
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