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Darren Waters

More questions for Phorm

  • Darren Waters
  • 7 Mar 08, 08:47 GMT


UPDATE:
Some people felt we hadn't got all the answers from Phorm on their ad tools. So we asked for your questions, and you've obliged.

We put a large batch to the firm and their answers are .

There are a few follow-up questions/answers to come.

So - the next question for you is.... have you been satisfied with their answers?


EARLIER: As your comments on my Phorm posting and yesterday's indicate you still have plenty of questions and complaints about the technology.

The key complaints are:

An ISP handing over personal browsing information to a third party is just wrong - end of story.

Even if Phorm's intentions are honourable today, this sets a bad precedent which could lead to mis-use in the future.

Phorm's track record means they simply cannot be trusted

The key unanswered question is:

Even if we opt out of this scheme, is it true that the ISP is still passing our personal and private information to Phorm?

I'll put this very point to Phorm this morning. If you have other questions, get them to me and I'll ask them also.

Comments

  • 1.
  • At 09:38 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • kiereann wrote:

I read in another article (The Register), that Phorm (previously 121media and thus a world away from the top of the list of trustworthy companies) was conducting trials with BT last year and that BT subsequently denied this.

1: Given the lack of honesty at this early stage, how can either company be trusted?

2: What recourse will internet consumers be entitled to should anything unpleasant develop on the back of this data skimming?

3: Has anyone actually read the "declaration on human rights"?

  • 2.
  • At 09:48 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Jon Poste wrote:

I understand that this is the way the internet is going however I believe this, and all things similar need to be opt in systems instead of the owness being on the consumer to opt out.

  • 3.
  • At 09:53 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Alan Addison wrote:

Could you please ask Pharm if they know what "serendipity" means.

Many times I have clicked on an advert that would not seem to interest me just cause it was there.

Targetted web advertising is a con. Just cause yesterday I was looking for something doesn't mean today I will be looking for them or anything related to it. But if the advertisers are willing to pay for this useless service then good luck to Pharm.

  • 4.
  • At 09:54 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Jon Poste wrote:

I understand that this is the way the internet is going however I believe this, and all things similar need to be opt in systems instead of the owness being on the consumer to opt out.

  • 5.
  • At 10:21 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • DM wrote:

Whilst we understand that Phorm declare that they will not store customer's data they will still recieve it, additionally it appears that they will still receive it even in the event that you opt out.

It's analagous to BT recording my phone conversations, assigning a random number to those calls and then sending them away to be listened to so somebody can assign the catagory "Cars" to that random number. Even though the call recording is then deleted I doubt anybody in the country would be comfortable with that happening. Why is this suddently acceptable for web traffic?

I think the issue is not necessarily Phorm but that the ISPs believe they have a right to do whatever they like with our browsing data, without proper consent. I.e. a complete lack of transparency.

The ISPs can certainly stop individual's traffic from reaching Phorm's systems, could you ask them why they don't do this as a opt-out/in method rather than send everything and rely on a cookie as to whether it's profiled?

Cheers

DM

  • 6.
  • At 10:43 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • SMainwaring wrote:

Following on from your marketing man analogy.

If a person is happy for the marketing man to follow him around all day; recording what he does in the shops, the pub, his home then what happens if that person goes into an establishment for members only such as a golf club?

Will the marketing man still record and process what the person does in the pro shop, the lounge, at the AGM?

What I mean is: a website has a messageboard which is only available to registered users.

A BT customer who has 'opted-in' to webwise registers with the messageboard and starts reading the private / not in the public domain messages. As he is part of webwise Phorm will read and process all the words this user sees.

This can breach the copyright of the website. Phorm need to state exactly what happens in this situation.

  • 7.
  • At 10:47 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Oar Wellin wrote:

It depends how they define 'Phorm'.

'When you opt out -- or switch the system off -- it's off. 100%. No
browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm.'

Sounds good.

'We should be clear: the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and
browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP.'

Ah, so does this mean that 'Phorm', in the previous sentence, does not refer
to the 'Phorm servers'?

  • 8.
  • At 10:53 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Andrew Wilson wrote:

While I'm concerned about the privacy issues, I also want to know about the technical issues: does the service modify web-pages you receive via http if they do not contain adverts by participating companies? Does the service ever modify web-pages you receive if you have opted out, even in ways that (shouldn't) be noticeable? And does the service ever modify information you receive via http that might not be a web-page, i.e. is it possible for it to accidentally break applications that rely on http for communication, especially if those applications work in a way that Phorm didn't anticipate?

  • 9.
  • At 10:55 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Iain Coleman wrote:

Can Phorm explain how their system is compatible with the Data Protection act and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act?

  • 10.
  • At 10:56 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Oar Wellin wrote:

It depends how they define 'Phorm'.

'When you opt out -- or switch the system off -- it's off. 100%. No
browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm.'

Sounds good.

'We should be clear: the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and
browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP.'

Ah, so does this mean that 'Phorm', in the previous sentence, does not refer
to the 'Phorm servers'?

In other words, does it mean that no data is passed out of your ISP to a
remote Phorm location when you are opted out, but it still passes through
the Phorm servers in the ISP network?

  • 11.
  • At 11:16 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • wrote:

1.) I would like to know if Phorm paid 80/20 Thinking Ltd for their privacy assessment, and what the exact scope of the assessment was, and are they prepared to release the full report to the wider IT security and privacy community for scrutiny. 2.) I'd please like you to put it to Kant that the mechanisms for opt-out (apparently using a cookie according to leaked documents) are at best unproven and at worst inadequate under the provisions of the Data Protection Act, which gives individuals a right to contact the Data Controller of the ISP in writing removing their permission for processing of personal information beyond that necessary in providing the service, which obviously would not set (and ensure that they remain set) cookies on all current and future computers used on that connection. Would they consider hiring an external agency to audit the provisions for opt-out? 3.) I like the Phorm approach to data storage reported and described in his patent disclosure and have no problem with behavioural targeting except in the following case: two people use a shared computer 鈥 how will Phorm ensure that a surprise, e.g. a partner researching wedding venues, is not ruined when the other partner next uses the computer and is bombarded with adverts for dresses and rings? I believe the effect will most likely be noticeable because I was recently engaged and since the point at which I changed my Facebook status, which also uses behavioural targeting, I have been subjected to an endless stream of adverts about weddings, despite the arrangements now being fully in place! I鈥檓 happy using Facebook because there is strict demarcation between what I choose to share and what I don鈥檛. What I don鈥檛 choose to share still has to go via my ISP! 4.) I would argue that anonymity of data is critically important but in the legal case perhaps a side issue, where the primary focus is on consent and access to information either now or in the future. I would like to better understand the strict demarcation of ownership of equipment to be installed in the ISP to really understand the full content of the stream received at the point of entry to equipment under the control of Phorm. Bloggers purporting to be from BT claim that this is the FULL browsing (http - port 80) stream with IP addresses obfuscated in some way. Is this true? And if so, what safeguards over employee recruitment do Phorm have since they will be in an extremely powerful and trusted position, being able to read 10m peoples' web traffic. If this is true, is it correct that Phorm use oversees software developers, and if so, how will software updates be validated to ensure there are no back-doors and processing is within the boundaries outlined in the EULA. 5.) The E&Y report makes a concession that the safeguards audited only apply whilst the system is in it's current form. I would argue that the infrastructure itself is inherently intrusive, so how can future safeguards be maintained? 6.) The same report also mentions detailed (but anonymous) logs that will be removed from the closed loop onto Phorm servers and kept for up-to 14 days. Why do they need these logs since the very thing that impressed 80/20 was the lack of need to store detailed personal information nor remove it from the closed loop. And crucially, will these logs be stored within the EEA? 7.) Do phorm intend to resell any data, such as "clickstream" trends, perhaps even split by demographic, and if so, are they aware of the possibility that this data would be "de-anonymized" as reported on techcrunch and numerous sites with the AOL and Netflix "anonymous" releases.

  • 12.
  • At 11:18 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Andrew Wilson wrote:

While I'm concerned about the privacy issues, I also want to know about the technical issues: does the service modify web-pages you receive via http if they do not contain adverts by participating companies? Does the service ever modify web-pages you receive if you have opted out, even in ways that (shouldn't) be noticeable? And does the service ever modify information you receive via http that might not be a web-page, i.e. is it possible for it to accidentally break applications that rely on http for communication, especially if those applications work in a way that Phorm didn't anticipate?

(Apologies if this is a double-post. The submission seems to be timing out.)

  • 13.
  • At 11:22 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Jon Broad wrote:

The issue of our personal information being skimmed goes much wider than just Pharm.

Many people and organizations constantly gather and store information on us all without our consent.

For instance, it wouild be imposible for thieves to steal many thousands of credit card numbers in one hit if companies were unable to store our credit card numbers after a transaction had been completed.

The only solution I can see is for the law to give each of us formal legal title to our information, after all is said and done, it is our information.

That way, all information gatherers, in both the real and the virtual worlds, will have to seek our consent before they take what is not there's, our information about us, and we would all have redress should it be lost, stolen or mishandled.

  • 14.
  • At 11:30 AM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • JB wrote:

I've had a good nose-around about this but it'd be handy if there was some kind of one-stop how-to on how to block it/stop it/turn it off (properly) or whatever else.

  • 15.
  • At 01:00 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Robert Penketh wrote:

Firstly email or write to your ISP specifically banning them from passing any information to Phorm, its equipment or any subsidiary.

Second go to windows/system32/drivers/etc and open the file called hosts in a notepad.type in the following
127.0.0.1 dns.sysip.net
127.0.0.1 sysip.net

If, in the future you can not get on line its because your ISP has ignored your instructions and is directing your Internet traffic via the Phorm server, you can then sue them.

  • 16.
  • At 01:44 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • wrote:

Hi all
I work for Phorm here in the UK. In case some of you have not seen it there is a full transcript of the online interview with Phorm's CEO going up on the www.webwise.com/chat and a full Q&A with The Register at
Rgds
UkPhormtechteam

  • 17.
  • At 01:45 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • wrote:

There are inconsistencies appearing. Phorm told The Register that data is still passed to the "Profiler" even if people opt-out, but apparently the "Profiler" is owned by the ISP, which is how they claim no personal data is sent to Phorm, as per the reply to the 大象传媒. However, I would like to know who provides the software for the "Profiler" and if it's not written by the ISP, how does the ISP check that it does what it's meant to?

I still want answers to my cookie question. Part II Section 11 "Right to prevent processing for purposes of direct marketing". Is this direct marketing - well as is clear to all concerned there HAS to be some link between the profile and the target computer else the ads would not get served.

Opt out by cookie is insufficient in my mind.

  • 18.
  • At 04:15 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • wrote:

"14:jb
I've had a good nose-around about this but it'd be handy if there was some kind of one-stop how-to on how to block it/stop it/turn it off (properly) or whatever else."

it appears the only real answer right now is to send an official 'Data Protection Act Notice' by registered post to your ISP stating something like this (take and change as you see fit for the purposes of protecting your DPA rights)

'to the data controller {ISP}this is a data protect act notice.

as of this day {date}i formally remove both now and in the future, any and all rights afforded to you regarding the processing,passing and/or exporting of my data property outside the very limited supply and billing of the broadband connection.

at no time, shall you pass my data property to any internal or external equipment that is capable now or in the future of profiling my personal web/page key presses/copyright as per Phorm/webwise patent or derivatives like systems.

  • 19.
  • At 04:16 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Stuart wrote:

In reference to Robert Penkeths comment can you please explain what doing as you suggests actually does to inform the uneducated users like myself.

  • 20.
  • At 04:23 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Andy wrote:

I have a question:

A week or two ago, the ISPs were busy saying that with reference to piracy and illegal downloading, that "they are just conduits" and "cannot be held responsible for the data passing over their networks".

this week they want to analyse our data and target ads to us. Does this not make them responsible for the data over their networks in a way that there previously were not, or have i got the wrong end of the stick?

i still fail to see how this works effectively. a quick read up suggests that they match up the pages, history and adverts in real time, but somewhere there has to be data stored that links up me with the page, history & advert.

If it's a cookie on my PC then it could be manipulated by either me or a dodgy third party application. if it is held by them, then they have my data.

it feels like someone is being sold a lemon here, either the consumers, (we are being tracked & profiled) or the advertisers, (the ads are not very targeted or both of us...

so in short, NO, i am not yet satisfied that this non-optional system is as much of a benefit to the public as Phorm would have us believe

  • 21.
  • At 06:19 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • wrote:

Thank you for trying to get more specific and honest answers out of Phorm, but I think these scam artists will continue to weasel their way out of any direct answer.

My first question lies in the use of a cookie. Specifically, how does Phorm modify the http stream to be able to read a cookie in the webwise.com domain? If I browse news.bbc.co.uk, no modern browser will also report a cookie outside that domain, so obviously they are intercepting, modifying or falsifying the http stream to the contravention of the Data Protection Act. This slide seems to show a clear violation of the DPA as the system is placed where it actively intercepts web traffic, responds with a false web page with potential spyware that could conceivably read any or all of your cookies, then waits for a timeout or web page redirect that causes the now compromised web session to make a second attempt to the webserver which is then completed.

From the slides published on theRegister, here, it seems that traffic is intercepted at a level inside the ISP where subscriber information is still present, specifically the DSLAM/VPI/VCI/BRAS information that ties a traffic flow directly to a subscriber line. If they are doing this, there is no need to capture an IP address, as the subscriber is already identified. Does the ISP do anything with this very specific information? Does this subscriber information and resulting internet activity get passed onto Phorm?


What is to stop the ISPs from using the collection system to intercept other kinds of traffic, such as private banking sessions, VPN traffic, IM chat traffic or any other sensitive sessions? The technology is not limited to spying on port 80, it could watch all other protocols as well. There is no need to spy into encrypted sessions, but seeing that Mrs. Beardsly of Luton regularly makes secure https sessions to barclays.co.uk could be sold to less scrupulus parties who would like a list of barclays online banking customers.

  • 22.
  • At 07:05 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • wrote:

Thank you for trying to get more specific and honest answers out of Phorm, but I think these scam artists will continue to weasel their way out of any direct answer.

My first question lies in the use of a cookie. Specifically, how does Phorm modify the http stream to be able to read a cookie in the webwise.com domain? If I browse news.bbc.co.uk, no modern browser will also report a cookie outside that domain, so obviously they are intercepting, modifying or falsifying the http stream to the contravention of the Data Protection Act. This slide seems to show a clear violation of the DPA as the system is placed where it actively intercepts web traffic, responds with a false web page with potential spyware that could conceivably read any or all of your cookies, then waits for a timeout or web page redirect that causes the now compromised web session to make a second attempt to the webserver which is then completed.

From the slides published on theRegister, here, it seems that traffic is intercepted at a level inside the ISP where subscriber information is still present, specifically the DSLAM/VPI/VCI/BRAS information that ties a traffic flow directly to a subscriber line. If they are doing this, there is no need to capture an IP address, as the subscriber is already identified. Does the ISP do anything with this very specific information? Does this subscriber information and resulting internet activity get passed onto Phorm?


What is to stop the ISPs from using the collection system to intercept other kinds of traffic, such as private banking sessions, VPN traffic, IM chat traffic or any other sensitive sessions? The technology is not limited to spying on port 80, it could watch all other protocols as well. There is no need to spy into encrypted sessions, but seeing that Mrs. Beardsly of Luton regularly makes secure https sessions to barclays.co.uk could be sold to less scrupulus parties who would like a list of barclays online banking customers.

  • 23.
  • At 10:55 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Mark Thompson wrote:

As the person who started the E-petition on 10 downing streets website, and in direct answer to the question 'Have you been satisfied ?' the short answer is a resounding no.

I still have big problems with the way the whole issue of the opt out is being handled from a technical and PR point of view. People are asking the question 'If I opt out, am I really out ?' but the answers seem to be something a politician would be proud of. We get told that yes, opting out means nothing is sent from the ISP to Phorm, but I constantly see this followed up by the statement that we should be aware that some Phorm servers reside in the ISP. I find this very suspicious and it just seems that they do not want to give a straight answer to what is a very simple question.

My fears that even if you opt out, you infact are still 'touched' in some way by the Phorm technology seem to be confirmed when reading the latest answers from the register. They state that even if you opt out some data is still sent to the profiler. This is a big problem for me and indicates that in some way Phorm is still in play here. What is this 'profiler' ? is it owned by phorm or the ISP ? does Phorm have any visability of it ? is any processing including 'reading' done on this data by Phorm ?

These technical fears are compounded when combined with the alleged 'shady' history with regards to this company, and allegations of secret trials being performed by BT. It hardly inspires customer confidence, especially in the current climate where the problems of personal data being lost or missused are very much in peoples thoughts and high on the political agenda.

And this leads me to the biggest mistake of both Phorm and the ISP's. They either did not understand how important people treat their data, or they have been too arrogant to care. Rather than trying to force this technology on us, maybe they could have actually engaged with real people and customers and see what they actually want.

  • 24.
  • At 11:10 PM on 07 Mar 2008,
  • Howard wrote:

I don't know about the rest of you out there, but I agree with the many posts I've seen already - it should be "opt in" NOT "opt out".
I get annoyed watching adverts on the TV, I certainly do not want ads popping up when I am surfing the web.
I pay no heed to the ad's that I see on line now, if I really want to buy something I will research it - I do not want to see ad's about toasters just because I clicked on the wrong URL by accident!

  • 25.
  • At 03:42 PM on 08 Mar 2008,
  • J o Donkey wrote:

The Phorm System is attached directly to the BT Network (& others) & according to their plans this is "Electronic Wire Tapping"!

Have the Government or any other Authority suddenly made this Legal!!!

There was recently a "Brew ha ha about electronic bugging in the House of Commons"

One Rule for Authorities another for it's Citizens.

How user's should control or not control this system is "NOT" relevant it should not be allowed & will be proved "Illegal"!

  • 26.
  • At 04:05 PM on 08 Mar 2008,
  • Dave Farrance wrote:

It seems that Phorm's claims about being endorsed by Privacy International are more than slightly dodgy. From the Guardian:

Simon Davies of Privacy International has got in touch to point out that PI "DOES NOT endorse Phorm, though we do applaud a number of developments in its process." (His capitals.) "The system does appear to mitigate a number of core privacy problems in profiling, retention and tracking... [but] we won鈥檛 as PI support any system that works on an opt-out basis."

He adds: "Any claim that PI has "endorsed" Phorm is incorrect. This is not because we don't believe the Phorm technology has some benefits. It does. It's because PI simply doesn't conduct that type of endorsement."

He clarifies that Privacy International *as a whole* did not evaluate Phorm, but that he and Gus Hosein, a senior fellow at PI, did under the aegis of their privacy startup 80/20 Thinking "assess the Phorm technology and processes" to provide a Privacy Impact Statement.

"We were impressed with the effort that had been put into minimising the collection of personal information, and were particularly impressed with the idea that such a system could be established without the need for IP's, retention or profile building."

"We did notify Phorm of a number of danger areas, particularly the notification and consent conditions applied by its ISP partners, however we felt the Phorm process itself warranted praise at a number of key levels. In comparison to, say, the potential of the Google/Doubleclick process, Phorm deserves credit for attempting to create a stronger privacy and anonymisation focus."

I think all the concerns have been made here in this forum and here:

Now for the reactions, lets keep them simple and tabloid style, just to get the basic message across.

Mine?

Phorm-off!

  • 28.
  • At 04:55 PM on 08 Mar 2008,
  • poh wrote:

I've seen nothing in Phorm's recent media offensive that that offers significant reassurance.

Phorm have admitted that in their previous guise as 121 media, they were the originators of the apropos rootkit.

For those who don't know, a rootkit is a program that insinuates itself into the kernel - the innermost core of a computer's operating system. The subverted kernel then makes false reports to the rest of the system, effectively hiding its associated adware (others have called it spyware) from other programs on the system, including anti-virus and other security software. As the computer itself is deceived, so too is the hapless user.

Thus outright deception was at the heart of Phorm's original incarnation. It appears that misdirection forms the core of the current scheme.

Firstly, Webwise, the much touted antiphishing tool. No evidence has been given that this is in any way superior to the anti-phishing tools supplied with standard browsers. Further, if Phorm control the list, the opportunities for abuse are obvious. Nonetheless, this feature serves to distract attention from Phorm's principal wiretap function, and, despite the emetic presentation ("a safer experience, a more relevant experience"), it may even be attractive to a few of the gullible.

Secondly, the statement that no raw user data is ever sent to Phorm. This glosses over the fact that Phorm have their intercept servers physically within the ISPs. We have no knowledge of the degree of control which Phorm have over these servers. Can they update the software remotely? Do they have their own people working within the ISP?

Thirdly, the Opt Out Cookie. Apart from the fact that this must be set for each browser/user combination, it still appears that this is only an opt-out from the targetted adverts. Browsing data still passes through Phorm intercept servers within the ISP. Opt in or Opt out, with Phorm it's always spying tonight.

As with so much in life, it comes down to a question of trust. Do we believe Phorm and the three ISPs - the main recipients of its largesse? What weight should we give to the views of its paid friends, 80/20 and Ernst and Young (admittedly they could hardly be expected to work for nothing). Should we perhaps pay more attention to the words of Professor Ross Anderson, one of Cambridge University's experts in secure computing?

鈥淭he message has to be this: if you care about your privacy, do not use BT, Virgin or Talk-Talk as your internet provider.鈥

  • 29.
  • At 02:25 AM on 09 Mar 2008,
  • Daz wrote:

1. If the user has opted out and therefore has the opt-out cookie in his browser, then I take it that cookie must be readable by all websites you visit (as they need to see that cookie). What stops those websites using that cookie as a tracking cookie itself?

2. The intercept servers based at ISPs like BT will store a cached copy of the whole webpage you have viewed for a period of time (according to an web chat with Phorm's CEO). This could be a privacy problem as ISP (especially BT!) offshore their support and development roles to India. Whilst the data is stored in UK servers, it would be accessible to people in countries without equivalent data protection rules..or of course, the ISP servers could get hacked if not properly protected.

3. If the royal Mail have no permission to open my mail and sell a summary copy of the call..my Phone company has no permission to eavesdrop on my phone calls and sell that data, why does my ISP feel it has the right to read all the webpages I go to and sell the data?

opt out should be just that. My ISP should NOT record, even for a second, any data at all, regardless of whether it then passes it on. Having opt-out as cookie based is also ridiculous. Bundling this marketing scheme with anti-phishing and using that as justification for opt-out instead of opt-in is disingenuous. Make them two separate services.

  • 30.
  • At 02:08 PM on 10 Mar 2008,
  • Alan James wrote:

One more question.

How exactly are they going to alert us to potential phishing sites is they aren't going to modify the pages sent to us ?

  • 31.
  • At 08:37 PM on 10 Mar 2008,
  • The Other Steve wrote:

Not at all reassured. ALL my traffic will still be proxied through by Phorm's profiler.

Here are some choice quites from the patent that form have pending on their technology :

"Furthermore, though the present disclosure discusses HTTP traffic in many examples, it will be appreciated that other types of protocols and traffic may be employed in connection with the targeted advertising system and method described herein."

"Context reader 40 is not limited to acquiring keyword or other contextual information pertaining to a given web page. Indeed, the browsing information may be collected so as to also include historical data pertaining to the browsing performed "

"Based on analysis occurring at the proxy server, the proxy server may modify client-requested data it receives so that a targeted advertisement appears on a web page requested by a client"

"As explained above, the context reader may be configured to more than just keyword and other contextual data pertaining to a given web page. The context reader may also include behavioral data (e.g, browsing behavior), other historical data collected over time, demographic data associated with the user, IP address, URL data, etc."


I'd like to see some follow up both to form, and to Simon Davies about the contents of this patent, which are so at odds with what Phorm have been telling us. I;d also like to see some comment from the ISPs involved if at all possible.

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