´óÏó´«Ã½

The crimes of Fritzl are monstrous as you quite rightly point out, yet he is not unique to inflict such abuse on innocent children, in Liege in Belgium a strikingly similar event occurred, and in Angers, France the same thing also occurred. Mr Fritzl should be locked up for the rest of his natural life, and the local social services should also have been arrested, their role in this awful story has yet to be discussed.

I wanted to query your description of Hella Pick, she is hardly a distinguished Austrian journalist, indeed my Austrian colleagues have never heard of her, as for Austrians being 'gossipy' that is simply not true, their cousins the Germans are gossipy, the Austrians can only be classified as conservative.

I suspect it says more about UK journalism - if I understand correctly the only journalist who tracked down the Fritzl family was a Bitish journalist, whilst the Austrian journalist respect their privacy.

Generally mainland europe nations are much more family and child focused than compared to the UK, albeit France has its child murders and Belguim its child sex offenders - not that different from Austria it seems to me.

It is not helpful to characterise the culture of a nation in this way, every country has its misfits and in this case a very controlling one who covered his activities very well. A bit like some UK murders and child abusers.

Of course Fritzl is a horror. But other horrors go on all over the world just as hidious. Since literature is my thing, I like to make mention of it in giving it a role on how we shape our world view. Incest was a taboo subject until Alice Walker's THE COLOR PURPLE. Then the flood walls came tumbling down with confessions and help launch the career of people personalities like Ophrah Winfrey.

In the Midwest or the Heartland of America, where everthing was suppose to be based on family values were uncovered whole communities based on incest. The mostly female victims were afraid or too ashamed to tell. But The Color Purple gave them a way out. Fear had kept them silent.

Ismeal Reed tried to punish Alice Walker by saying that she made all African American men look bad by portraying them the way she did in Color Purple. But the answer comes from the Bible, and excellent book of literature and human behavior, when Christ was being santioned by the Parashees about how they would not have acted against the Prophets the way their fathers did. Christ said, Then you admit that you are sons of murders. Therefore when we set out to criticize a whole culture or the one who steps foward to tell the truth, are we not just as guilty.

I have been censured of late for relating to titles of books and the pholosphy of their authors, but literature has more to offer now than it ever. We would not be in the crisis we now face if 8 years ago, the face of power had cracked open a history book.

Sorry, I think the idea that the actions of one man tell us anything about a whole country would be considered tantamount to racist in other contexts.

People might remember Fred West, another chap with a cellar, but few came out of that cellar alive. He doesn't represent everyone in England.

A truly awful story; this man knew what he was doing and was/is not mentally ill so should have been locked up in a prison not a mental hospital for life - meaning that he should die in prison

#4

Well said, and lets not forget Harold Shipman who never found a need for a cellar to commit his crimes. Sorry but the media feast surrounding Josef Fritzl and his crimes/trial was more like a modern day 'Freak Show' - tabloid journalism at it's worst.

The coverage at time has gone too far, but what with the crimes, it would have been hard for the trial to be anything less than a circus. I think the coverage of Bill Clinton's personal life was worse.

i agree that Austria is a very very conservative and patriarchal society.

i also think it is really time to change for Austria !

Racism also still BIG problem in Austria ...

It seems disingenuous and disrespectful to turn the crimes of one man into a discussion on the merits of different types of social behaviour. There are many complex issues involved in this case that we are unlikely to hear about for a very long time and we should be very wary of drawing any conclusions about it at all.

A man has been tried and convicted. He will live out his days in a prison. They are the only facts that matter to us at this time. And the media should not go poking around the family - they need space, time and complete privacy.

Fritzl is a criminal. He did not show remorse at all with what he has done to his very own children.

Let this be a lesson to the governments, communities, neighbors, to be observant and vigilant to what seems to be normal family set-up but are actually in such enormous inconceivable dilemma.

Fritzl is not representative of Austria in any way; he is an aberration who needs to be placed in a deep dungeon for the rest of his life. Perhaps he should be given hard labour as well. He has ruined so many people's lives. His daughter has suffered the most and her internal scars are so horrendous even to contemplate.

Most people beforehand knew that Fritzl was guilty and going to be imprisoned for life so the events of this last week were hardly surprising.

For me the most significant aspect of the whole media coverage was that even sections of the pro-market right wing Austrian media were astonished at the way the UK alone paid more attention to this story than other issues that affect everybody!

For example his sentence just happened to coincide with the US Federal Reserve announcing that it's pumping just another mere trillion of dollars into the banking system; a story that was hardly covered by the 'free' media anywhere!

One might have been forgiven that his crime was actually committed in the UK rather than Austria.

Of course the reason behind this is with the UK economy in dire straits, its public finances and debt the worst in the EU whilst pumping billions itself into the system with no results there is nothing like moral panics and demonisation of individuals to prevent the deluded masses from working out for themselves where the real problems lie!

@12

Well said.

The ´óÏó´«Ã½ has nonchalantly declined to provide items of news that highlight the entrails of the economic corpse that is being daily pumped full of new blood when any decent professional would have pronounced it clinically dead a long time ago.

It doesn't matter how many words are used, how much venom is directed at him or how much revenge people seek, Fritzl's crimes have been committed and nothing will ever change that.

Any suggestion that Fritzl's crimes are uniquely Austrian must be ignored. Child abuse and violence against women is universal. Two things that I would hope might change with the Fritzl case are (i) the challenge to the press's prurient interest in the details of the abuse. I heard one journalist asking, "Yes, we know she was imprisoned and raped, but what are the details and what was it really like?" Is it so appropriate for us all to want to know these things? Are we really that uncivilised to want to see blood stains, chains and instruments of torture? (ii) PLEASE less focus on demonising this man, more focus on realising that "ordinary" men do these things and get away with it for a long time and more focus on the successful resilience of victims and their chance to make a recovery.

He was found out, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced - close the book and let Austrian people get back on their feet. I'm sure it won't go ignored in the corridors of power in Austria, and as any modern government should know, a lessons-learned exercise should be carried out to close any loop-holes that can be said to have allowed this to happen.
We, in the UK, have enough to be putting right in our own country, and would surely get more respect from other EU nations if we actually managed to do that.
Fritzl is a monster - agreed - we've had our fair share from Jack the Ripper to the Yorkshire Ripper, Dr. Crippen to Dr. Shipman and many more inbetween and to come.

Fred and Rosemary West Myra Hindley and Ian Brady to name some British people. It is universal and classless if he had not been middle class he would have been found out quicker, but he was middle class and Austria my be gossipy but it does not mean it will interferer in a man's family. He did not look to me as if you would want to ask him any questions about HIS family this man was not mad nor did he not know what he was doing he did it because they were his children and viewed as objects for him to do with as he chose and no one would say anything and he had to know that this was so even when he was away, a very emotionally powerful man and when he looked sad or cried it was because he was caught, nothing to do with what his daughter said, a born abuser, now he will go mad because he can not abuse any more. But he is not the first nor the last it has always happened with humans we are narcissistic.

#14

"Child abuse and violence against women is universal"

As is female domestic/sexual abuse and violence against men and children, it's just that much of it (especially against adult males) goes very much under reported to the authorities.

I strongly believe in stereotyping according to nationality or race. It is usually (but not always) a good way of summing somebody up.

However, characterising a nation according to this man’s terrible crimes is ridiculous and offensive. I think the ´óÏó´«Ã½ should stick to reporting facts and keep opinions, especially when they are this extreme, out of it.

Boilerplated
You are not contributing positively to a debate to end violence against men, women and children to make a cheap point that detracts from teh fact that the Fritzl case was a case of violence by a man and against a woman and her/his children by countering that violence by women against men and children may go unreported. Yes, I agree with you. There are instances of violence by women against men and children. Statistically these are lower in number (even taking unreported estimates into account), but assuredly awful for the victims who deserve society's help. But does it help to stop the evil to start some sort of oneupmanship about who gets beaten up more? Men and women and children all find (for differing reasons) reporting sexual abuse or domestic violence traumatic. Victims who do come forward aren't treated as they ought to be, with sympathy and support, but are often disbelieved and marginalised. Those that do are brave and are making a slow but radical change to society in standing their ground and letting the crimes be known. I applaud men who come forward after violence by women as much as I applaud the female victims of male violence. But remarks like yours remind me of those people who say violence in marriage is six of one and half a dozen of the other and ignore the real suffering of one spouse, whatever their sex.

19. Rapedwife

Sorry, I agree with boiler plated. People need to stop the sexist rhetoric about 'male violence to women'

Domestic violence occurs amongst all demographic groups, including female on male and in same sex relationships. It is all wrong.

If you choose to make sexist and stereotypical comments then you must anticipate the targets of the stereotyping will respond.

#19

I was making a valid point, the same point that you were making, except that I'm not pretending that woman can't/don't commit such crimes - there has already much discussion in the media and elsewhere about how much Fritzl's wife knew about his crimes whilst it's a mater of criminal history that Rose West not only knew about her husbands crimes but actually took part in some of the crimes.

Sorry but if anyone is cheapening the real issues here it is you, this crime was about control, one person controlling another, and the debate is about how society can allow someone to commit such crimes, it's not about sexual/physical abuse against any one gender or age group as such. Fritzl could have as easily kept an teenage/adult son captive (and sexual abused him to) and who is to say that some deranged person is not doing just that in some cellar somewhere. Get off your own high-horse, rather than trying to put others on one.

Jon112Uk and Boilerplated
Did you actually read what I wrote? I said I agreed with you that the male victims of female violence against men deserved sympathy. I said I applauded men who came forward after experiencing violence. I did not make any sexist or stereotypical remarks and I certainly did not pretend as you suggest I did that women don't/can't commit such crimes. It is not sexist or stereotypical to note that Fritzl was a man and that his victims were a woman (his own child) and her children. It is so tragic that we spend our time bickering about gender violence rather than tackling it. You cannot deny gender violence exists. Feelings run high on this issue because to be a victim of violence whatever your sex, especially in a domestic context where trust has been breached, is awful and debilitating. Victims feel angry and disempowered. The Home Office are running a consultation on gender violence at the moment. Why doesn't the ´óÏó´«Ã½ extend this to a blog? But the first point of any constructive dialogue would be to admit the problem, which I did, of gender violence, both male on female and female on male.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#22

"But the first point of any constructive dialogue would be to admit the problem, which I did, of gender violence, both male on female and female on male.

Sorry but you most certainly did not, originally (see below), you have begrudgingly accepted the fact only after being challenged.

Your original comment was: "Child abuse and violence against women is universal", if you had really meant to speak of all sexual and physical violence regardless of age or gender you would not have phrased the comment as you did. You lop-sided comments are probably doing more damage to your 'cause' (so obvious from your user-name) than good, distortion of the facts does no one any good, least of all those who distort..

My "cause" as you put it is that I was raped by my ex-husband. That's a fact, not a distortion. What is wrong with my "cause"? Why do you reproach me for making it obvious? Am I meant to not complain about it and not make an issue of it? Why can I not make it a cause? If you have been in a violent relationship yourself, I would expect your sympathy, not the polemic vitriol that I'm getting from you instead. THe United Nations says, "Violence against women continues to persist as one of the most heinous, systematic and prevalent human rights abuses in the world". I do not consider the United Nations lop-sided. If you are a victim, you truly have my sympathy. Fritzl is guilty of child abuse and violence against women, that's why I entered this debate and entered it to comment that violence against women and child abuse aren't Austrian only problems. The ´óÏó´«Ã½ debate was not about violence towards men as it is not relevant to the Fritzl case.
You have not expressed any sympathy towards victims of violence. Your use of insulting language such as calling my comments lop-sided and suggesting I am distorting demonstrates your hostility towards victims of violence. Why? What makes you hostile to victims of violence?

25

"You have not expressed any sympathy towards victims of violence. Your use of insulting language such as calling my comments lop-sided and suggesting I am distorting demonstrates your hostility towards victims of violence. Why? What makes you hostile to victims of violence?"

No, the ONLY thing I have not done is condemn all adult males (and that is what riles you), even even though I know someone who (as a child) was raped by a fully grown man, he won't condemn all men either, he knows that his abuser was the exception and not the norm.

Sorry if the truth is inconvenient to you but I will not condemn all men just because some are bad, and I will not conveniently forget that female abuse (both sexual and physical) against children or men doesn't happen. If you want to campaign against sexual and/or physical abuse try looking at the whole story rather than just cherry-picking the bits that fit your agenda - you never know, you might actually find that those who you suspect are against you are actually with you...

[ re my comment at #26, a correction ]

I said: "I will not condemn all men just because some are bad, and I will not conveniently forget that female abuse (both sexual and physical) against children or men doesn't happen."

That should, obviously, read "...I will not conveniently forget that female abuse (both sexual and physical) against children or men does happen.

Dear Boilerplated
You are obviously quite an angry person. Why do you think it riles me that you don't condemn all men and where did I suggest that anyone should do such a thing? That would be silly and I didn't do it. I would hope that most men would be part of the solution to stop violence against women and I would certainly not and did not condemn half the human race. Nor have I suggested that female abuse against children or men does not happen. The agenda of the blog is Fritzl's violence against his daughter and their children and whether this is an Austrian or a universal thing. I think we are in violent agreement that it is a universal thing, and where you take issue with me is that you think a universal thing (violence against women) comprises the whole universe to me, where it patently does not, either to me or hopefully to anyone else out there. Violence against women is a large part of the domestic violence universe, that's for sure. How large, no one knows as no one knows the scale of unreported violence perpetrated by either sex against the other or against children. I don't condemn you, even though you've imputed me with jaundiced views which I simply didn't write or have. But you seem to want to condemn me merely for highlighting a legitimate concern about a large sub-set of violence perpetrated in our society. I am not detracting from whatever violence you may have suffered or your friend may have suffered whoever the perpetrator of that violence was.

14. Rapedwife

"Child abuse and violence against WOMEN is universal"

"less focus on demonising this MAN, more focus on realising that ordinary MEN do these things and get away with it for a long time"
(Emphasis added by jon112uk)


This is the type of sexist stereotyping that people are talking about.

I am a man: I don't murder, rape or beat my wife or any other woman.

I object to people stating sexist stereotypes that men are aggressors and women are victims. This is no more acceptable than some racist stereotype that muggers are black and mugging victims are white. The stereotype is offensive.

If you make offensive stereotypical remarks then you can not complain when the people offended by the stereotyping respond.

(And to get back to Jamie's original point - not all Austrians are child molesters)

#28

Please stop trying to put words into my mouth that I have not said, people can read what I said (the ´óÏó´«Ã½ has archived them...), just as they can read that you said "Child abuse and violence against women is universal" originally - no mention at all that women are also abusers, unlike what you claim above, if you really do believe that women are also abusers then why did you not write the above in gender/age neutral language such as 'sexual and domestic violence is universal'?...

If you want to carry on believing in your 'lop-sided' views of domestic/sexual abuse then there is little anyone can do to change your mind but once/should you make those view public you must expect to be challenged. Oh and yes, I am angry, but not at all, just those who peddle half-truths and opinion as fact.

My previous comment was found to break the house rules, but I have now discovered the answers to the questions I raised then.
Anyway the sentence "Child abuse and violence against women is universal" is extreme. The word 'universal' implies: Of, relating to, extending to, or affecting the entire world or all within the world.
@jon112uk: "ordinary MEN", you should have emphasised ordinary - as clearly the men who rape their daughters and father 7 children by them are clearly not ordinary. If this was ordinary behaviour then it would not be illegal, as laws are brought about by what is ordinary. I think if the phrase was "seemingly ordinary men" then it would be acceptable. But I would change men into people.
i.e. "less focus on demonising this man; more focus on realising that seemingly ordinary people do these things and get away with it for a long time"

31. Cyborgia

"....But I would change men into people...."

Yes, people. Absolutely my point - I'm not on a rant against women or victims or anyone else. Domestice violence is wrong but it's not a phenomenon limited to just one demographic group.

People should not stereotype...including not stereotyping the Austrians!

Psychopaths will adapt to any environment in which they find themselves (as indeed all humans do).

In Britain it was fairly easy for Dr. Shipman to kill people for so long, as he adapted to the given situation and blended in how he could, in his case by being a GP perhaps.

Now maybe Austria does have a patriarchal society... I don't know, but if it hadn't been this particular alleged trait of Austria then it would have been another that would have masked him, as he would have adapted to the situation.

Michael Ryan's next door neighbour said after the event that Ryan was such a nice lad and he went on to gun people down... questions to be asked about the UK then if we are pointing a finger at Austria?

Us British love to stereotype! The actions of a couple of twisted individuals don't act as a barometer for the whole of Austrian society anymore than the actions of Baby P's 'parents' made Britain a nation of baby killers. We British need to remember how awful we are compared with other European countries! We have the drunkest, most violent people, the highest drug use, the highest number of abortions and the most unhappy and disturbed young people. When we point the finger at any other country we really do need to remember the three fingers pointing back at us.

1 - We are not the most drunk, but so what if we are - why is inebriation a bad thing?
2 - Most violent? That's why WE won 2 world wars, Russian war, napoleonic wars, etc etc In times of peace it only seems a disadvantage!
3 - Highest drug use? really? Even the Dutch?? I doubt we do. But in any event why are drugs so bad?
4 - Highest number of abortions... Must be all that drunken sex. At least we allow abortions and people are taking responsibility for their irresponsibility.
5 - Most unhappy and disturbed young people? Where's this evidence? Nordic countries have far more suicides. Iceland has more drunkeness. Danes have far more tattoos. And Hungarians are very melancholic. Anyway, unhappy and disturbed young people create the best art, write the best music, the best poems and are more likely to be geniuses. Perhaps this explains Britain's greatness and our cultural and scientific pedigree?

#35

"4 - Highest number of abortions... Must be all that drunken sex. At least we allow abortions and people are taking responsibility for their irresponsibility."

If only that was true! How much money is paid out as benefits of one kind or another to unmarried mothers each year in the UK?...

It happens here in the UK.
Here's a recent Scottish case:

Here's a recent English case:

The difference between the UK and Austria is that the Austrian reporting system is more open than ours.

The first link in my comment above appears to have 'disappeared'. Here are three more links to the same story:



Why point the finger at Austria? This is not an 'Austrian' problem - it is a problem with some men within families. Our legal system in the UK rightly protects any children involved. But the consequent under-reporting of these types of cases results in the false notion that all British families are safe and that these types of problem only exist elsewhere.

I concur with Straight-Talking. Today's ´óÏó´«Ã½ News website contains a very moving photo account of a Muslim woman from the UAE about her escape from sexual abuse. Not to lessen her suffering for a moment, but this is happening in the UK, cross-racially and across every religious sect. Why do the ´óÏó´«Ã½ single one one Muslim woman in the UAE? It's really as if it doesn't happen in the UK population at all. I wish this hypocrisy of finding fault with other countries could stop and that we could start addressing the awful abuse that happens behind closed doors on our own streets.

#38

"Why point the finger at Austria? This is not an 'Austrian' problem - it is a problem with some men within families."

Lets not forget woman abusers and murders like Mira Hindly or Rose West shall we...

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am surprised that you report permanently about the Austrian Fritzl case, and no word about the South Yorkshire case, who fathered several children with his two daughters and has been responsible for approx. 10 terminations raping his daughters for approx. 20 years with the authorities having failed despite several hints. Obviously the interest of the British medias is different if similar or worse happens "at home".

Kind Regards

Journalist in the UK try to get the last drop of blood out of every story. I find it strange that they go to great lengths to bring out more and more dirt. The sale of newspapers is the reason they say that drives them, I wonder if it's not just a morbid bitterness for human kind that makes them write such garbage about someone that they know is not true. Like the McCann family, tormented by lies and lies and more lies. Freedom of the press yes I agree we need it, but I also think when they get it wrong they should go for the guguler and make them pay by removing the journalist license for so many years like a driving license, That would make them think for sure. This guy Fritzl should be executed and forget about it, why the fuss. There are bad people all over the world. It just happened to be this guy is Austrian, so what? Why make more of it than what it is?

interesting views on this blog - I think that the real point with fritzl is that he is obviously a callous, weak, cowardly, pathetic man - he abused his daughter with such intense cruelty and barbarity because he could as he groomed her from an early age. He is ofcourse a disgusting sex pervert but the real story about him is his narcissism - he is a narcissistic sociopath who wanted to fill his life with everything to satisfy himself at will - sex was his main goal in life, used as power and control - over his daughter because he was able to plan ger abduction and cover up making excuses that seemed "plausible" in his homw town. There is nothing extraordinary about this man - he is deeply unattractive and probably held a life long hatred of young women due to their lack of interest in him, expecially as a young man. The sheer extent of his loathsome behaviour seems to put him apart from the human race. I agree he cried in court because he realised the game was up for him after his daughters testimony of absolut horror - he realised the jury would convict him of everything - genocide if they were allowed to. He is totally unsuympathetic and a sad excuse, aberration of a man - as deeply flawed as it is possibloe to be.