´óÏó´«Ã½

I am pleased that we have finally got these powers - 12 years after Scotland was given more than we now have.

But annoyed that we still have to beg for Frau Windsors signature.

But it is good to know the English have to have a German families consent to do anything as well.

Long may she rain over them.

What a good day for Cymru/Wales.

We are somewhat amused when contemplating the fact that Carlo Prins of Wails will have to sign orff future Welsh laws!

See the earlier comments in another thread about "civic nationalism" not "race and DNA", read the above comments and make your own minds up. Witness what fundamentalist welsh nationalism is all about...

Aren't comments 1 to 3 mocking the institution of monarchy, which really is the embodyment of racial nationalism?

Well no, they are not are they ? Message one "Frau Windsor" ? Surely anti-german comment ? If not, please explain.
Message two "But it is good to know the English have to have a German families consent to do anything as well.
Long may she rain over them."

Surely just an anti-German, anti-English comment, if not, please explain ?

Message three, fair enough, just garbled nonsense.

So I would ask how this fits in to "civic nationalism" is there no room for monarchists in their vision for Wales, strange since even most welsh nats won't openly support republicanism.

#6, I think you are looking for an apt description for those that insult our Head of State ....

.... I think it might be "pig ignorant".

I am sure Liz Windsor does a reasonably good job as head of state, though I did not put her there and there lies the objection. It is a shame that we have to go through this pantomime to approve Acts of the Assembly. Its an improvement on what went before but the monarchy is outdated and anti democratic.

#6, merthyrmarkf

Most Welsh Nationalists won't openly support republicanism? Wow... that's a new one.

As for your idea that messages 1 and 2 are racist... well, that may be your interpretation, but it isn't mine. I see those messages as mocking the English idea of monarchism, where the monarch is seen as a figurehead for the nation, is a source of pride for that nation and even a symbol for jingoistic zenophobes; yet she and her family aren't English. The monarchs of England have rarely been English, and have rarely cared much about England in truth - it's a joke.

My comment was supposed to be an ironic one.

Irony must be lost on you who call it racist.

We all know what the English reaction is to 'foriegners' especialy Germans.

You only have to listen to the racist jokes about 'deck chairs' for instance.

My cousin married a German and he was a lovely person kind and generous.

What I said is fact, not racist. I am not racist.

Racism is born out of hatred, something I see a lot of on here, against the Welsh

my incorect spelling of rain was intentional as well.

Like taking the p... out of the English people who have to pay for them alongside us, now that is what I call mocking.

As for being 'pig ignorant'. Well I expected more from you John.

Are you saying that France, America, Germany and all the other Democratic countries, that have democraticaly elected Heads of Sate are all 'pig ignorant'.

Now that is racist.

Well messages 7 and 8 are a direct attack on the monarchy, fair enough, not everyone agrees with or supports the current constitutional system, foir whatever reasons.
However in M1 and M2 the best these "civic nationalists" can do is make comment on the royal families German roots ! If this is not racist in some form please explain ?
As for message 9, the idea of monarchy is not an English one ! The monarchy may not be particularly cared about in England, exactly the same as Wales and the rest of Great Britain then ! Can you show some evidence that the monarchy is more or less popular in Wales than in England ?

To quote from M10; "We all know what the English reaction is to 'foriegners' especialy Germans."
Erm are all the welsh who react badly for 'foriegners' not pure welsh DNA stock enough then ?
Are the "deck chair" jokes lost on the welsh ?

Re M11, I mis-read M7.

12

Pardon, what are you on about?

As for the jokes.
No they are not lost on the Welsh, because we are used to the same racist English jokes and attitudes to us as well.

I can also think of the Sun and Daily Mail headlines during a football match.

@ merthyrmarkf...

put the spade away, mate... you're in a big enough hole, lol!

Tip: read comments properly, and don't always react with your gut instinct. Your bile is too obvious.

I didn't say that the idea of Monarchy is an English one, or that the monarchy is more or less popular in Wales or England. I referred to the English or (most especially) British nationalists (of the worst jingoistic sort) being proud of their (foreign) royal family. If you can't see the irony in that, then I can't help you.

Alf, we have a Queen as head of state, if you prefer an elected person I won't fight with you on the matter, it would be the will of the people, in Wales if you think the will of the people would be usurped by a larger vote East of Offa's Dyke, call for a Wales referendum on the matter, but the matter would need to be Independence; but as with the countries you quoted, the people of those countries do not insult their Head of State in the way contributors above have.

I see the insults to Queen Elizabeth II, not Liz Windsor penned by Mr. Thomas at #8 above, akin to burning the Stars and Stripes in the USA, Mr. Thomas might like to try it, but what makes me really angry Alf is we have so few places where discussion can take place that we waste Betsan's Blog.

I remember last summer when Betsan closed the blog, there was nowhere for the public to voice an opinion, by all means fight hard, but to insult our head of state ............. it brings nothing to any debate.

Our Queen is 4th generation descended from Victoria and Albert, and people on here insist on calling her German.
Can someone explain to me why immigrants/ asylum seekers, who, as soon as they set foot on our soil are defined as BRITISH? and anyone who dares to question that is called a racist and a fascist and BNP.

M14 Pardon what are you on about ??
Are you saying jokes about germans are racist or not ?
Are you saying the English make racist jokes ?
Are you saying the Welsh do not make racist jokes ?
Are you saying the English are more racist than the Welsh ???
Pardon, what are you "on about" ?

#15, not one of our Royal family in the line of succession is foreign.

It's taken 700 years to get this far. One small step for Carwyn...

I make no bones about being a republican. Being Welsh and living in Wales has no bearing on my basic feelings about it. I would feel the same were I living in England. I'm a civic nationalist.

I believe that the institution of monarchy (personalities aside) has been bad for England and the UK. It's undemocratic, elitist and class-based. It reeks of privilege and patronage. People should be honoured and respected purely on merit.

I have no evidence for it, but I believe that the UK's under-performance in just about every area is partly the result of a constitutional system with the monarchy at its heart. It's rotten from the top down, right through the undemocratic parliamentary and electoral system, with its unelected second chamber. Class is still a decisive factor in politics, senior civil servants, senior ranks in the armed forces, and the professions, particularly law. Oxbridge perpetuates it too.

#11 wrote:

'Can you show some evidence that the monarchy is more or less popular in Wales than in England ?'

Support for the monarchy rises and falls, but is generally falling based on what little information is available. I can't find any separate opinion poll data for Wales - indeed any objective data on it is hard to find.

I suspect, given it's history, that it's essentially England's monarchy - the monarchy's title is 'Queen of England' - and therefore there is less support for it in Wales.

Wales was conquered by Edward I, followed by a brutal occupation and subjugation. The installation of the English monarch's eldest son as Prince of Wales, and the perpetuation of that tradition to this day still rankles among many Welsh people.

Most people in England and elsewhere (some even in Wales) are totally unaware of Wales' history and relationship with England's monarchy. Wales isn't represented on the Union flag, because of attempts at assimilation of the country. For some of us, it is really a 'foreign' monarch.

There hasn't been an informed debate on the issue. Given the patronage and fawning of the royal family in the media and the press, it's difficult to imagine such a debate ever happening. I can't see it's abolition in England any time soon.

If Wales were to achieve self-determination, it would be an opportunity to debate the issue, and possibly break with the tradition, perhaps adopting Ireland's non-executive presidential system.

Re M15, It's not me who's digging mate ! I mis-read M7 that's all ! Now you seem to be back-tracking that M9 was now only intended as an attack on "British nationalist monarchists" ! Shame you didn't say that first really !
As for the irony issue, of couse anyone can go around shouting all sorts of rude, racist and offensive things, then just use the defence "I was BEING ironic", just visit any sixth-form common room.

You have to remember that when it comes to jokes people in Wales are famous for our lack of a sense of humour. That is why we don't laugh at football matches when visiting 'non-racists' with strange salutes and cropped hair sing 'funny' songs aboiut Aberfan.

Other nats please take note of M20, A (more or less) reasonable argument for republicanism ! Not one I agree with but a reasoned argument at least.

A sad day for Wales.

We can now "look forward" to even greater levels of incompetence from our Assembly; who will be cheered on by racist Nationalists who appear to have little grasp on history and an even less tenuous grasp on reality.

And yes I am Welsh

12
John.

Haven't you not heard what the French say about Sarkozy and what the right in America say about Obahma. I mean in the good old U S of A, the country we try so hard to emulate, they even speak openly about wanting him dead and killing him.

So sheltered when it is convenient.

We live in a Democracy we can think and say within reason what we like.

That is why the Media and Politicians get away with the lies they say about chronicaly ill and disabled people.

#24 wrote:

'And yes I am Welsh'

Seven hundred years of conditioning is bound to have an effect on some people.

I bet you voted No.

I don't see how using her name is in any way insulting John, she is Elizabeth Windsor is she not? Liz is a common abbreviation.

I find any form of hereditary power both undemocratic and demeaning. I find the cult of celebrity surrounding the UK royal family disturbing and the adulation of them down right unhealthy.

I also find that the royal prerogative a smokescreen that is used and abuse by the government of all stripes to hide their use of power.

Personally I'd like a fairly ceremonial presidency, such as they have in Ireland, with some reserve powers.

The National Assembly is fortunately shorn of much of the faux mummery that surrounds Westminster. A dignified signing ceremony is far preferable to some obscure Norman French rigmarole with people with different hats bowing and doffing.

I wasn't aware that living in a democracy gave people the right to say anything they liked. There are levels of decency that should be observed and some of the posts on here are hugely insulting.
Also, if we didn't have the monarchy, it wouldn't mean that we wouldn't have elected leaders building up little dynasties for their families, we already see instances where whole families are drawn into positions of privilege and power.
Finally, for the posters that blame the monarchy for all the failings of this country, do they realize that all the power is in the hands of Parliament, the Queen does not make policy. At least have the gumption to blame the right people.

LOL @ #28 where cleverelliejo wrote:
"... and some of the posts on here are hugely insulting."

Such as? If you think calling someone "Frau" or "Liz" is hugely insulting, then you have had a very sheltered life.

then...

"Also, if we didn't have the monarchy, it wouldn't mean that we wouldn't have elected leaders building up little dynasties for their families, we already see instances where whole families are drawn into positions of privilege and power."

I wonder which family you could possibly be referring to? The Saxe-Coburg-Gothas, perhaps?

Re M29: Calling HM Queen Elizabeth, "frau windsor" or "liz windsor" is not that offensive, in fact it is just childishly rude and ignorant ! I am niether a monarchist or rupublican, I am a constitutional realist, of all the problems this country is facing, the nature of the head of state is not very important. It will probably become an issue after the Queens death, and maybe a dignified debate can be held then.
On the subject of the Queen herself, to try to make personal insults about here is truly the reserve of those of low intelligence. The Queen did not seek her position as head of state, she was born into it(after the events of the 30's). It is not for her to abolish the monarchy, it is for the politicians, so far, they have not done so. If they did, I'm sure she would step aside for a replacement head of state.
My main point here was that in one breath the welsh nats are saying they are civic nationalists and to be welsh you just have to make Wales your home, then in the next, the old predjudices about England, the Royal Family are being spat out by a few posters on here.

I seem to have touched a few raw nerves with my frau Windsor comment....some people just do not get irony!

So for the record:

I am a welsh nationalist
I support Welsh independence
I am not a Plaid supporter - or any other political party
I am a republican
I think the monarchy is an anachronistic joke that should be abolished
I have no respect for the monarchy but do not have anything against individuals
You may call me childish, ignorant, a pig etc if you want - it is your subjective opinion and you are entitled to it
You may not call me a racist as it is not only offensive it is untrue.

Now I hope that is clear.

28
we already see instances where whole families are drawn into positions of privilege and power.

That wouldn't also be the Kinnocks you are talking about as well as the Royals would it.

the Queen does not make policy.

No, but nothing can become law unless she signs it off and the Prime Minister has to have weekly meetings to discuss things with her and garner her advice and opinion. She has to disolve and open Parliment or accept a new Government. So who at the end of the day has the greatest power.

An unelected Head of State that's who.

Perhapes the clue is in Head of State not Prime Minister

30

Oh dear.

What started out as irony has now become predjudicial an racist.

how ironic.

The Queen did not seek her position as head of state, she was born into it(after the events of the 30's).

Exactly our point, not democraticaly elected, but born into the position of privilage.

Actualy I am sure she could abdicate her responsibilities like her Uncle was forced to do because of his aligance to Nazy Germany.

Oh and yes I do know the official reason was Wallis Simpson.

I suppose it is not childish and rude to call me and those of the same persuasion Welsh Nats that is also based on predjudice

R31 and 32, Does irony mean something different in welsh ?
31 major back-track there then, why else use the term frau windsor other than for "racial" reasons as it is a term used in Germany not Great Britain ! As I said it is not offensive just childish/immature.
32 Read my message again !
As for welsh nats, are you not welsh nats then, how would you like me to describe you, sepratists, welsh seps ?

Wales is a country.
Wales is a country of the United Kingdom.
The Head of State of the United Kingdom is HM Queen Elisabeth II.
Therefore, the Head of State of Wales is HM Queen Elisabeth II.

With me so far?

It follows, does it not, that Her Majesty is Queen of Wales, and Wales is a Kingdom.

Charles, you're fired!

This MerthyrMark, is called humour.

And incidentally - I can not remember where I saw this (I will try and find it later) but Wales is apparently the most republican country in the UK.

"This MerthyrMark, is called humour" ? Let me know where your next perfromance is, I'll try to avoid it.
M35, "And incidentally - I can not remember where I saw this (I will try and find it later) but Wales is apparently the most republican country in the UK. "
I'll save you the time, it's probably just in your mind.

Also, apropos of nothing (complain to the moderators and it shall be removed); I've said I'm neither monarchist or republican and don't proport to speak for anyone else, but there are a large number of royal wedding chinaware items etc in Merthyr's tat shops at the moment, I couldn't say if they are selling but I doubt if they are just stocked for show. Royal family obsession is a bit unhealthy (go to the US, much worse than here), but in my opinion so is the obsession with the welsh flag, dragons, three feathers, rugby, singing the "national" anthem (welsh) with heart holding vigour a bit unhealthy too.
Just one final question to the republican posters here, imagine you were to have a job, would you take the royal wedding bank holiday ? Or dutifully turn up to work, after all, those official documents wouldn't translate themselvs, will they ?

Re 37

Merthyr Man,

You seem to have too much time on your hands! I would suggest that if you have a job, that you go to work on the day of the latest royal junket as well.

So if you're neither monarchist nor republican, then your insult towards penddu - "it's probably just in your mind" - becomes rather ironic, as at least you admit that penddu does actually have a mind of his own!

I also suspect that penddu has a healthy, fully developed sense of humour. The town of Merthyr doesn't seem to be alone in having been by-passed by something or other...

Plenty of time on my hands at the mo ! Bit of leave see..(I can keep this going for weeks, remember the "free hospital car parking lies" ? No..never mind. I was waiting for the gems to come forth from this comment once it passed the mods, very dissapointing I'm afraid. If pendu has a healthy, fully developed sense of humor, then it would seem, that the welsh and german senses of humour have much in common, execpt, of course, actually being funny. I wouldn't dare suggest pendu had a mind of his/her own, I imagine it is rented mind-space on the nationalist mind-server-farm in Aberystwyth.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

37

I have to agree about the hands on heart ritual, which is a recent and tiresome import.

Likewise the three ostrich feathers and the German motto ('we serve') which suggest heads buried in the sand.

Unfurl the Cross of St David's and Glyndwr's lions rampant!

@38

did I read that correctly... are you saying Welsh nationalists have a more developed sense of humour than the valleys??!? That's a hoot of a comment in itself! Maybe ironic humour is on the up in nationalist quarters

42 - You did not read it correctly -Indeed you have misrepresented some innocuous statements and twisted them using some odd logic which somehow means that being a Welsh Nationalist and from the Valleys are mutually exclusive ????

Move on.

41

I have to agree about the hands on heart ritual, which is a recent and tiresome import.

Yes from the great and wonderful U S of A. God Bless us all. Oh and America of course.

If God does, it is enough to make you an atheist and that is from a Christian.