The general line
Rojin bounced up and down on the stage, wiggled her hips, grabbed the mike and let rip with her powerful voice, her long dark hair flying...
It鈥檚 the hair, you understand, that interested me, because in front of the Kurdish singer was her large and enthusiastic audience, and in the very front rows, yes, looking up adoringly, swaying with the music, arms outstretched, was a sea of women wearing tight white headscarves with a sort lacy fringe.
This is a Kurdish rally, so maybe things are different, but while the headscarf issue divides the men of power, the women who are wearing the things don鈥檛 seem that fussed by people who don鈥檛.
Not a democracy
But I am now back in Istanbul after a late flight.
An early morning drive across the Bosphorous to talk to a couple of retired senior military men, three-star generals. Many here believe it is the army that really calls the shots, without needing to fire any. Incidentally, when you say 鈥渞etired military鈥 in Turkey you are not talking about old buffers living out the last campaign from an armchair in the Turkish equivalent of a bungalow in Bournemouth, but vigorous men at the height of their powers, extremely intellectual and thoughtful, in the most senior positions in private enterprise after a distinguished career.
I鈥檓 not going to name them, not that I think they would mind, but because this was the result of a chat after an interview and I didn鈥檛 take notes, so what follows is a summary, not exact quotation.
They argued Turkey was not a democracy, despite the fact it goes to the polls on Sunday in what appear to be free and fair elections, with multiple political parties and a free-ish and vociferous press. Their arguments strike me as rather Leninist. The masses are uneducated and illiterate so can be deceived by unscrupulous politicians. Only when they are better educated will Turkey be a real democracy. It is the army鈥檚 job to intervene if there is any deviation on the path to this true democracy.
They make a similar argument about "ethnic issues"... which means the Kurds. Poverty and bad education is the problem. The solution may need a tough military component but it's really about developing the south-east of Turkey until people stop worrying about issues of identity.
I put it to them that the , which I鈥檝e described to the ire of some as mildly Islamic, doesn鈥檛 seem very threatening. They have no hesitation in labelling the party's leaders as 鈥渆xtremists鈥 who want to turn the clock back and make the whole of Turkey subscribe to the values of the uneducated rural areas. They argue, and this is a very common point of view, that political Islam has to end up with Sharia law. It's in the Koran. To believe anything else is not to be a Muslim. Although they do add that one can be devout and a secularist as long as faith is kept separate from politics.
More tanks?
That seems to me either a contradiction or a suggestion that Islam is not static and can take different guises. Why is it not possible for their to be another position, half way between Sharia law and the privately devout secularist? I add that it's possible for me to argue from the Bible that it is impossible for any Christian to kill or go to war, but we all know that is not actually the case. They say the difference is that Christianity does not contain a body of rules, of laws that are practical rather than moral, and that is the big difference.
I end up asking if we could ever see tanks on the streets of Turkey, imposing the army鈥檚 will. "No," says one of them, quickly and firmly, before adding that of course it's always a possibility if secularism is under threat, and it can鈥檛 be ruled out.
I鈥檓 Mark Mardell, the 大象传媒's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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The assertion that only rural areas are voting for AKP is false. It's true that the southeast of Turkey, the Kurds are supporting AKP because the party is leading the way thru EU membership which is vital for Kurds to gain their rights. But it is very biting fact that our privilieged secularists seem themselves as the enlightened ones while the supporters of AKP as the backward minded, un-educated piles of people. It's nonsense !
Being on the side of militarist regime, oppressing the citizens, telling people what to wear, in what language to talk is not enlightenment. Rather there are open-minded intellectuals, capital-owners, and university students supporting AKP. I can't understand how dare these people can talk in this way. You should read this good article from NY Times on this subject:
Tired mantra: Islam has to end up with Sharia...
But most of the nationalists consider themselves Muslims. They don't want Sharia. So why can't someone else be Muslim and nevertheless not aim for the Sharia? Their point is exactly this: if you don't think like we do, you're an enemy, and (more importantly) a danger to our status, position and wealth. That's their argument, nothing else.
I have been reading newspapers intensively and following the lively discussions on TV (there are lots and lots of those, especially on the 24-hour news channels), but I haven't seen a single valid argument supporting the claim that the secular state is in danger because of the AKP. Insinuations, propaganda and downright lies yes, facts and arguments no. Just read the responses to your blog: the AKP are dangerous, they are extremists, they are this and they are that. But what did they DO? What are they SAYING? What has actually CHANGED in Turkey, going towards the Sharia? In what way have they stifled the opposition? Nothing but silence...
Mark, perhaps a nice subject for your next encounter with military, retired or not...
In recent months, several gangs (莽别迟别) have come to the surface, armed to the teeth and deeply involved in all of the racist attacks and murders of the past year, which may have been performed by ignorant youths, but certainly not without help and guidance. Apparently, being a retired army officer is a requirement for joining a gang, because there hardly are any civilian members. Links with active military are also being investigated. They use army and jandarma IDs, for example. I wonder what the military would have to say about these new terrorist groups. No threat to anything worth protecting?
The view which is told by the generals are common in Turkey's ruling bodies.
They are not only generals but some people who takes themselves as enlightened by the western values. They are coming from an old school called Young Turks. Since the beginning of 1900's, this so called elite says Turkey's secular, democratic country but they believe people in Turkey don't deserve it. It's practical result of this belief we have all kind of coups here almost every ten years. Recently, in 1997 we had post modern coup, this year we had e-coup (electronic coup in the internet age). And when that e-coup is carried out, the opposition party CHP supported the e-coup(CHP is proud to be founding party of the democratic Turkish Republic)
They say in public Turkey is democracy but they also say it's too good for the people so they dont let the people to use it. The most recent example, govrning party AKP wants President to be elected by people. (now, President's elected by parliament) And would you believe, the parties who claims AKP would destroy the democracy says President should not be elected by people because people may not know whom to elect.
Thanks again Mark! Nice coverage:) These retired military officers are wide awake and right -- education is a prerequisite for democracy. Higher education makes fanaticism a lot less likely because it helps a person become self aware in the context of a humbling body of information that not only offers perspective but also hope to that person. Hope that one who can use the information, act deliberately and participate within the system that they've learned about instead of pledging allegiance to the destruction of a world that alienates them.
As I mentioned in a previous comment, radical religious values take root in the uneducated, who don't sense their own potential as human beings in today's society and who eventually feel most useful in fanatical, cult-like situations. When you talk about the difference between Christianity and Muslim faiths, and the moral vs. practical ideals, you are dead right. There is a more practical, even environmental, base to Islam -- all of life is connected and resources are to be shared, as a rule (%15 all earnings to the poor, respect natural resources, etc.). But getting caught up in the differences between religions renders even the non-religious powerless. Humans should be driving the religious machines, not the other way round!
Islam and Christianity both have their fair share of fundamentalists. Throughout history, Christians have been self-righteously desparate and violent and land-grabbing - barbaric. Today it's not really different, but Muslims get a bad rap for applying such a dreadful technique in return. In general, weak, dejected people lift information and pervert it to give themselves power as they erase context. They then go on bends with this information and justify killing people with it (Hey, I know that American Indians once thrived where I live but Christian leaders justified killing them up and down the new world!)
You see? It's nothing new to anyone. Human nature mixes with religion the same way around the world. Fanatical people are fanatical people, and often people who lack education.
Circle round to the beginning: We must educate people and this can not occur in a religiously based, communist based environment in which 'leadership' tends to create and recreate ideas to meet their own desires while the masses starve, fight and fall. Indeed, the retired officers are right, uneducated people can not form a democracy! Are we learning this yet?! Mao, Ceausescu, Pol Pot, David Koresh, Hitler, Stalin, et al. taught this already.
I think the modernizers, intellectuals, forward thinkers, sensible people, secularists, and everyone else who want to take Turkey forward in science, innovation, free thinking, creativity and everything else associated with modern civilization lost the battle just because of the fact that people are dragged into a discussion of religon and politics. Religon is between a person and God. It is not he Government's business what I believe in! Keep out of my mind! Stop using religon as a tool! In the muslim world Ataturk is the only leader who actually thought religon was sacred and got religon out of politics! Why doesn't everyone else do the same. Shame on Muslims.
nonsense, Army is part of the Turkish nation, Most of the army corps are middle class Turks, so what is this idea that they do not want to lose their wealth, and they are elites!?? It is stupid to think they are just elites, Most of secular Turks are middle class, not elites. Millions of people who protested were middle class, have you seen the pictures!! You have a prime minister who wanted Sharia law just 15 years ago, you are telling me they all changed!?
Most of the top people in AKP are rich and their sons, daughters are educated in the west, they are the elites! I do not see any middle class in that party!
The only reason West supporting AKP is bankers in London getting 20% interest rate in real terms. AKP almost sold out the half of Cyprus for a promise of joining EU which it will never happen.
Ataturk and our grandfathers have spent 20 years of his/their lives fighting for our freedoms, We will not give in to Iranian or Saudi way of life.
Also, we are living in a bad neighborhood, we are not next to Sweden, Denmark or Ireland! If we compromise on secularism then They will take over and turn the country into another Iran.
By the way, only time Army gets involved in politics is when Secularism is in danger (last 20 years anyway)
The point is There is a Republic. They have to follow the republican rules.
Ronald Kramer: "The AKP are dangerous, they are extremist, they are this and that. But what are they saying?"
I think a little more reading is in order. My husband, a Turkish man, reads a lot of news and has for years. Abdula Gul has mentioned in the past that the entire country of Turkey has not thrived under secularism and that they should turn back to Islamic values to feed all of the people.
Does this sound familiar?? As in we should become communists or follow personality cults or become a religion to do the same all over the rest of the world, right? These ideas are tired, old and obvious but no less dangerous one of the last non-fanatical places in the Middle East. Reading all the papers in the world won't alert you to the side stepping that brings disastrous leaders into power. Knowing their background helps though. Take it from someone who lives in the US under a president who snuck up on a lot of voters (at first he was just creepy and not worth my vote and now I think he deserves to be impeached).
This is a serious time in Turkey. And many leaders would be smart to support those who want to keep it an open and advancing nation.
If Mr Mardell had interviewed Leibniz or Voltaire or Hume, he would have heard exactly the same arguments in more or less the same tones. This is because the arguments are perfectly sound. Rational agency, knowledge and other political virtues are indeed prerequisites for any substantial concept of political freedom to operate. It is sheer folly to think otherwise. Are some people here so deluded by their ideologically rose-tinted spectacles as to be duped by the AKP's simple-minded propaganda?
The AKP is in power; yet the AKP does not accept the fundamental principles of the parliamentary system which is the basis of its power. The AKP does not even accept that the very power of parliament must be balanced and checked by living institutions and traditions that guard the wider interests of the nation against the whims of any temporary majority. The laws, the civil service, the constitution, the traditions of state that keep each great nation together -- these must not be the mere playthings of every political party in power...
The Turks are perfectly justified in lamenting that a benighted minority may decide the course of their great nation. And it is only a minority, you must understand. The AKP may command a majority in parliament, but it won only a minority of the national vote. Most Turks have always opposed the AKP and for good reason.
Mr Mardell and Ronald Kramer may read as many newspapers as they wish and walk around Turkey as much as they like; they haven't understood the first thing about political philosophy or about the Turkish nation. Turkishness does not entail any ethnic or religious background. Turkey was founded on the basis of universally applicable principles such as the value of scientific knowledge, rational decision-making, loyalty to common ideals, education for all, equality under the law. The principles of the republic sanctify the dignity of the individual citizen; this is why ethnicity, religion and other types of herd behaviour are to be kept out of politics. The Turks have not succeeded in realising all of their ideals. Of course, they have made mistakes too; but let's at least give them credit for pursuing ideals that are worth pursuing! The nostalgic among us may remember that these used to be the very ideals that moved other Europeans, too, before the onslaught of post-modernist claptrap.
Have we in Europe really forgotten our own history? It is regrettable that the 大象传媒's coverage of the Turkish election is so ideologically distorted as to be worthless. I am ashamed of the 大象传媒 for openly siding with the most reactionary government in Turkish history. To repeat the obvious: the real problem with the AKP is not yet what it has done. The real problem is what the AKP is, what it stands for and what it will inevitably do. Turks, who have a bit of common sense and a grasp of history, can see this plainly.
Perhaps it is too much to expect intellectual depth and historical insight from journalists, but what we need at the very least is common sense and clear thinking from the 大象传媒. The secular majority in Turkey need urgent help from their European friends; unfortunately all they get is sarcasm, sentimentalism and cynicism. Turkey deserves our friendship. Do we really deserve hers?
1- I am shocked when I hear 大象传媒 saying that "it will be a fight between religious and modern side of Turkey".
this is not true, AKP is not "islamic party" , AKp is a liberal democrat party.
how can they be "islamist" while AKP is the strongest defender and supporter of European union and west in Turkey ?
Even the president Mr Erdogan said millions of time that AKP has nothing to do with being islamist or anti-secular
i am a Atheist Turk and i am voting for AKP on sunday
2- there is no secular-anti secular fight in Turkey...
i can tell you that %98 people of Turkey are strong supporter of Democracy and secularism since 1923.
Turkish people's problems are ; unemployment, seperatist pkk bombings etc.
3- Turkey is'nt an "Islamic" state, for its secular constitution and law does'nt depend on Islamic law. Its people, except some regions in the east and central parts,have loose connections with religion;
there are muslims, jews, christians, atheists, alevis, shamanists etc all living together....
4- Kurdish people in Turkey have all the same rights as any other Turkish citizen.There are so many Turkish people from Kurdish ethnic background, holding key roles in every part of the society: celebrities, politicians, businessmen etc.
we even had a Kurdish prome minister and today some Kurdish candidates do their campaing in Kurdish languages.
5- In Spain, Basque nationalists have been banned from launching a new political party after a Spanish judge said it was a cover for the banned group Batasuna and ETA Terrorists.
Spain is still member of EU and allow to ban a political party and arrest their leaders !
Today in Turkey some memebers of Kurdish DTP party still refuses to condemn pkk terorism and bombings and some of the party members working together with Pkk militants.
despite all this they are still allowed to their campaing to be elected on sunday's elections.
But what Teoman (9) forgets is that there is no Kurdish assembly. Britain has assemblies for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain would not stop the Scots from having a vote on independence.
Spain has regional assemblies as well, Catalunya has an assembly and it could have a vote of independence, Madrid may not like that but what could it do to stop it? Basque parties without ties to ETA have not been banned.
Turkey on the other hand, does not allow a Kurdish assembly with full assembly rights. It does not allow regional autonomy and it won't even consider a Kurdish referendum on independence. Even worse, it threatens the Kurds with violence should they ever consider even speaking of it.
Every peoples has a right to self determination and the Kurds are a separate peoples, despite Turkish claims to the contrary. The Catalunyans and Scots could break away but don't because they are not oppressed. The Kurds are being oppressed despite cosmetic measures which Turkey presents as consessions.
Denying Kurdistan the status of a independent nation is one of the great shames in the aftermath of WW I.
Kurdish independence won't happen this year or next, but it will happen eventually I think.
And what would Turkey do? Send in the army? You'd lose. Just like the French (who started the Vietnam war) and the Americans (who inherited it when the French cut and ran) could not decisively defeat the North Vietnamese.
Of course in a conventional war the Turkish army would win, but the Kurds know this, and the moment Turkey attacks them they will wage a guerilla war from the mountains. And the international community will come down hard on Turkey to quit. Which it eventually will.
Most if not all European countries have admitted past wrongs against peoples. But the Turks never have. They live in a dream world where the Armenian genocide either didn't happen or is magically excused because the 'Armenians were doing it too'.
Turkey purged the evidence from its archives. But still available are literally countless eyewitness reports from German and Austrian officers and liaisons to the Ottoman empire who all state the government had agreed to a plan to systematically exterminate the Armenians from Ottoman territory.
Also absent from Turkish history books is how Ataturk schemed to keep an independent Kurdistan off the map in 1921.
Fact is: up to today, Turkey occupies parts of Kurdistan only to steal the oil. They've been doing it longer than the Americans (who aren't stealing anyones oil but paying for it).
I am yet to meet a mainstream religious person who will not at the slightest opportunity lecture about how people should live. This includes the muslim people I work with. Interpolated, this graph leads to a state where people can't be free. I believe from the article that the women, given a chance would rather leave behind the restrictive requirements of their religious environment, just as most of us in the west have over the past century. I hope the atheists win out, not because I am one but because the worlds survival needs a majority in liberal thinking.
I have been writing on "大象传媒 Have your say" for 3 years,i have commented on so many diffrent problems but when it comes to decide,it is very hard,but i have decided.
As a secular,liberal,democratic person,i am going to vote for AKP. We live in "the city of left" and my whole family will vote for CHP.I do not have a islamic lifestyle but,EU plans,economic stablitiy and growth,social affairs are key words for me.
Unfortunately, the western media is ignoring the actions that the AKP government is taking to enforce its religious agenda. The government proposed a law to criminalize adultery. AKP-controlled municipal governments have banned the sale of alcohol, shut down theaters for showing on-stage kisses, etc. Prime Minister Erdogan described democracy as being like a streetcar-you ride it until you've reached your destination. These are why so many liberal, secular Turks were alarmed enough to turn out in mass protests. And don't forget that many of them chanted "neither Sharia nor a military coup."
People in Islamic countries (for example Pakistan, Turkey etc) quite often confuse Westernisation with moderisation; people can modernise and yet still maintain Islamic morals and standards.
As the article above pointed out, education is the key - people need to be educated in areas that count, such as science and medicine, technology and engineering. This education will in turn help modernise these countries.
Nawaz.
Hello Mr. Mardell,
Christianity and Democracy is totally opposite beliefs. There is no Democracy in Christianity also. It seems to be Europeans forgot their past very fast. They killed millions of original people of Central and South America. They killed millions of Africans. They killed millions of themselves during first and second world war. They sold people on the open markets like goats. When people couldn't speak Spanish or belived in Christ like them, they butchered them in Sugar cane fields. As a matter of fact, they were so intolerant that they killed their own, who did not believe in Pope. When they were doing all these terrible things they were believing in Jesus Christ and praying at churches. So the Christians of Europe and the new nations came out of the Europeans such as America, Australia, White Soth Africa has a very dirty and bloody history in their bag. I admire Europe for one thing, they seperated government and religion from eachother. They built great democracies, this created lots of benefit for all the people of Europe.
Stlii today there are political parties named Christian Democrats in Europe. In the United States President George Bush came to power using Jesus Christ as his campaign manager. Yes, Democracy in Turkey is not as good as in Holland or in England, but last 20 years and particularly last 10 years it came long way and I am very proud of it. In Turkey, we will not have Sharia. Turkey past that long time ago. We are culturally, religiously, linguastically not Europeans but we are dealing with them for centuries we are well aware of European values. I really don't want Turkey to became a EU member, but I would like to see Turkish Democracy is muturing and benefitting of all. The Turkish military needs to be very strong. Where Turkey is located, Middle East, Caucusus, Balkans. Where we are located history is always fresh like it happened yesterday. Lots dirty politics as played behind the doors. Such as American interest, European interest, Israel and its supporter Zionsts and Far right Neo Christians, Oil, extremist Islamists and Ethnic wars. Every one is looking for a leverage and they are using whatever neccesary to have that leverage including invading Iraq, Using Kurds against Iran or Turkey, or Zionost George Soros using his money to create conflict in Georgia or Ukraine. So much to talk about Turkey the I country I love.
Thank You
Nuri Bulut
I am not surprised one iota with your article. Unfortunately, there are people in Turkey who believe they are above the rest of the population. Somewhere between 35 to 40% of the population supports AKP. We do not have 35-40% ignorant, uneducated, Islamic fanatics in Turkey. Should that be the case, I says the generals are just too late then.
The reality is though, that the vast majority of young women wearing headscarves in Turkey (especially in recent years) support AKP--claiming that they are doing so because of religions conviction. If they had a shred of education, they would realize that there is NOTHING AT ALL in the Koran that commands them to cover their heads--merely to "dress modestly, to cover one's breast." This whole headscarf movement is at best a militant herd mentality influenced by generous contributions to AKP-leaning voters from Iran and Saudi Arabia--and at worst not-so-smart women bowing to the primitive egos and demands of their woefully insecure male relatives (particularly husbands, who don't have enough of a sense of their own self or "manhood"). I've got a better idea: why don't we impose the headscarf on men? Or better yet, (as the reasoning appears to be that the headscarf is to protect a man from his uncontrollable sex drive), put chastity belts on men--and give their female relatives the key. This would render them harmless and preserve the strict social order that Islam is trying to impose. Let's see how long THAT lasts!
Ataturk banned the headscarf and the fez. Religious Turks fight for the right of their wives and daughters to wear the headscarf in official buildings but why are they not claiming the right for themselves to wear the fez ?
The real problem in Turkey is that the ruling elite which these retired military men are a part of, are totally foreign to the people which they call "uneducated masses". These people make up 90% of the Turkish population and are devout yet moderate Muslims, look forward to more democracy and open to new ideas much more than the ruling elite are. The ruling elite and the "masses" are almost like living in two seperate planets. Previously the masses were indeed uneducated and sumissive, but as they grow more and more educated and started demanding more of the good life the ruling elite felt threatened. This is when the problems started in Turkey.
Liberty and religion
Some people responded to my comments as if I am defending a rigid nationalist and secularist position. This is a misinterpretation brought on by the compulsion to see these sorts of things merely in black and white.
I am not an ideological purist. Just as Europe is afraid of fascism; Turks are worried about religious establishmentarianism. During the last several centuries of the Ottoman Empire, Muslims lost their economic power vis-脿-vis non-Muslims. This was closely linked to the rise of religious mysticism as well as fanaticism. Now, while Turkey is becoming more industrial, more affluent and urban some would like to see a new role for Islam. This is the culmination of a trend that began with the open support of the Turkish military and of Turkey's allies for Islamic brotherhoods in order to counter the rise of the left and communism. Turkey now has more Islam than it needs. The number of clerics, Koran courses and mosques is disproportionate to the number of hospitals, schools and libraries. Despite the headscarf ban, which I strongly believe should be lifted, the freedom of non-believers is under constant treat and a large number of Alevis [Anatolian heterodox Muslims] still suffer many forms of oppression.
As with many Turks, I am against military interventions and would be happy to see Islam in peace with a liberal economy. More importantly, we need to come to terms with a liberal society. This is likely to happen and there is no reason to be pessimistic. However, with Islam at the centre of the state's legitimacy, personal freedoms will suffer and much of what has been achieved in Turkish politics since the late Ottoman reforms will be lost.
What we have learned from communist and fascist regimes is that these forms of ideology bring about monolithic social orders. Any regime rooted in religious order will do the same. Turkey is lucky to have many shades of faith, ethnicity and culture and the guarantee of our freedoms as Kurds, Alevis, Sunnis, atheists and all other kind of Turks cannot be served by nonsensical inventions such as "Islamic Calvinism" and "Islamic democracy". Turkey has the potential to achieve a constitutional democracy but it has to eliminate conspiracy theories, its inferiority complex vis-a-vis Europe, the political power of the army and the misguided interventions of its allies, especially the EU and the US. In the meantime, those in the west and in the east who would like to brand and sell Turkey as the "Islamic Calvinist democracy" should deal with their own mess in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and elsewhere.
Gul Berna Ozcan
While it is true that AKP is an Islamic party, simply with the achievements they have produced to further this country's modern growth they should no be criticized so harshly. Besides, true democracy consists of freedom, and presently that freedom is missing with the almost extremist secularist demands to get rid of headscarves, and other such difficult matters. Until the majority of the population is educated to a certain level, our democracy will consist of shallow patriotism and unfair regulations against peaceful Islamic beliefs.
"These retired military officers are wide awake and right -- education is a prerequisite for democracy." wrote Emily
OHH! My Lords!Never sleep and never fell false!
Let's get on our knees and celebrate the loftiness of our great lords. The lords which have the shining stars of honour, pride and decisiveness on their left and on their right shoulders to protect the land.
As we lay in our pity laziness with our educated but yet not mature souls, should there be a real salvation. Put your foreheads on the front! You the lawyers, doctors, judges, engineers and the rest of the professionals who carry the sin of being an ordinary person since very first second of your birth. Praise the mighty, altruistic lords who by their nature know better than anything and anybody. Which judge dares to think he knows the rights better? Which sociolog dares to claim to analyze the society better? Which engineer dares to stand up claming to calculate a solution for any problem?
Help us Lords with those uneducated masses. They should be forgiven for their misbehaviours where they made the Lords angry by starting to mumble words alike "I am a citizen. I have rights", because they are stuck in their very deep of ignorance.
No! My lords! We don't need any resemblence of making choices. Not now, not 30 years nor 1.000 years. No time will make us a socity who knows and who decides. We know we are incapable of being educated.
Hallelujah we have our never ending lords, protecting the sinful, non-educated and mis-educated souls. Don't release your grisp on our pity existence and never let us to run away with a drummer!
(Reading all these things there is no point of making rational talks. Because you can not compete with beliefs, you can not overcome the dogmas which finds life in EDUCATED minds)
Those who go by the name of secularism, and call themselves 'leftists' in Turkey are remnants of an aging authoritarian mentality, as these old generals prove.
It seems to me that in Turkey, contrary to Western European historical experience, the conservatives (AKP), are the progressive and pro-democratic force.
If we look at the education levels from the Turkish Census Department and the previous election participation, we can see that AKP gets most of its votes from uneducated people.
I can understand how people outside of Turkey can interpret the military's actions as oppressing the citizens, however, in Turkey, people in general do not understand the value of democracy and might be tricked into giving it away "in the name of god" by the politicians in or wanting to be in power . It is in fact the military, on the side of the educated and secularists, that is trying to preserve the secular democratic state that Ataturk has founded.
A little naive to dismiss the slippery Islamist slope. But maybe the army-as-guardian-of-secularism & Attaturk's vision can't work forever. Many in Turkey would--I and I hope they weigh in here--might like to have a governmet free of fear of Islamist leanings & reliance on military counter-balance. Don't know if that's possible in the current geo-political environ, do you?
I have read the same article but didn't see any "assertion that only rural areas are voting for AKP". The point is that "The masses are uneducated and illiterate so can be deceived by unscrupulous politicians." Ignorance isn't confined to rural areas, especially in a country like Turkey where there are millions of urban poor. I would rather have generals think that this is the problem of Turkey, which can be solved by "peaceful" education campaigns.
And when you think about politicians like Blair and Bush that used every trick in the book to deceive their own public, there is no reason for any Turkish politician not to use the same tricks. And AFAIK, the Kurds in southeastern Turkey are not supporting AKP, but supporting their independent candidates. Another issue is "being on the side of militarist regime" which is what the Islamists were doing in the 1970's and 1980's when the military regime's target were the leftists. Now they've repositioned themselves to be the champions of democracy against the military. When people are uneducated, it's quite easy to fill their short-term memory with promises of democracy and freedom and trick them into voting for parties that work against them. It's not AKP's or any other parties fault, it's just the deficiency of democracy.
Calling for an election when voters are away from their registered addresses because of temporary jobs or summer holidays is one of the many "tricks" AKP played during their term. One would expect the so called democratic AKP to schedule the elections in the fall when people are back to their primary residence.
Same AKP -hiding behind the 10% threshold- gained 65% of the seats in the parliament with 35% of the vote. This is hardly democracy by any standard.
You should put more context to this article. The current condition actually is caused by a military coup at 1980 when it was left and right wing groups violently. The coup, directed by CIA as said by one of a senior US cabinet member 'our boys did it' , purged real politics in the public life, punished leftists and nationalist groups, outlawed unions, progressive policies and tightly connected the country to US influence. It also gave huge help to religious groups and put religion into the education system. Surprisingly, this is the time when thousands of imam-hatip high school (modern versions of madrasas) were opened on of which AKP leader Tayyip is an alumni of.
After 20 years, the country is more religious than ever. We are talking about cults and religious groups on the political front. This was banished by Ataturk in 1925 in reality but it still goes on. AKP heavily depends on religious groups for its core support and it still enjoys it.
The villagers were always conservative but looked to improvements in their life. Now with wrong agricultural policies, most of them moved to cities to make up the poor who still use religion as an opium and think in that reference system.
AKP is the artifact of such events in Turkey's history
As long as people can be swayed by campaign money and clever electioneering slogans they are uneducated
"sheeple". Very rarelly this is not the case. Democracy is a lousy political system! The only thing worse is the garden variety dictatorship. One should very carefully study Ithe few cases where "guided democracy" seems to work out better than eirher of the above. Singapore, and yes, Turkey come to mind ( I am fully aware of the Kurds
problems ). Can such relative successes be replicated elsewhere? What if they veer toward the garden variety?
Today,the Turkish people are going to test their democracy and will see how it works.The reason why this early election decision have been taken is the wrong policies of the ruling party,AKP.In so many countries,the parties which rule the their countries have to negotiate and communicate with other members of the parliament.That's the way of ruling a country.But if you always have problems with the rest of the parliament,other government services and military staff (especially in Turkey) those cause vital problems.Also when I look at AKP's policies about foreign affairs are not satisfactory though.Social justice,health services,human rights and economy are still struggling.I dont think there will be a drastic change after this election.However,countries sometimes need to be tested by people.Hopefully I will see Turkey running to EU membership,giving lots of confidenece to people and independence !!!
When I come to the secularist structure of Turkey,that must be kept not only for the future of this country but also for the region and world !!!
Erik says (#12): Unfortunately, the western media is ignoring the actions that the AKP government is taking to enforce its religious agenda. The government proposed a law to criminalize adultery.
About this adultery law. A central argument of the AKP for their proposal was this: in Turkish society, women are always punished heavily for adultery in social terms, whereas men can do pretty much as they please. By penalizing adultery as a breach of contract, the position of women can be improved. The secular opposition never mentions this argument, because they were badly in need of an example to "illustrate" the "fundamentalist" agenda of the government. And sure enough, this example pops up on every occasion, but of course without telling the whole story. When confronted with resistance in society, the AKP withdrew its proposal, although their majority would have easily allowed them to make it into law.
The AKP did introduce some other laws on the subject. For example, they put an end to the shameful provision in Turkish law that a man could claim a lenient sentence for killing his wife if she had "insulted his honor".
The Economist web site provides a wonderful, pretty un-biased primer about Turkish politics:
From one of their articles ():
Awkwardly for secularists, it took the AK government to pass the most radical set of women's reforms since Atat眉rk. Husbands are no longer officially heads of household, and wives no longer need their consent to work. Laws letting rapists off the hook if they married their victims have gone; new ones make intra-marital rape a criminal offence and scrap reduced sentences for honour killings.
Would one of the proponents of the wonderfully modernist, secular, European-minded opposition be kind enough to explain why these parties, after many decades in power, never thought of scrapping this archaic law on honor killings, which was worthy of an Islamic state like Iran? Why did they allow rapists to walk free if they managed to pressurize and blackmail their victims into marrying them? That's the problem with the secularists: it's only words. Just blah blah blah. They don't really care about modernity and modern rights, more to the point: they don't give a rats' behind about what happens to poor women in rural parts of Anatolia.
When an especially vicious case of an honor killing made headlines last year, an AKP minister made a point of returning from a visit abroad to attend the funeral of the victim, where he lamented the mentality of Turkish society that allowed men to perpetrate this type of cruel acts and even gain some kind of respectability from it. The newspapers were flabbergasted: they couldn't recall a single case, in all those years of modernistic, secular parties in power, where a minister raised his voice in such a loud and clear manner against the shame of honor killings.
And still they claim the AKP is fundamentalist.
This election is not about secularism vs. Sharia, but about democracy vs. authoritarianism. The most democratic party, weird as it may seem to some, is the AKP. I know plenty of secular, even atheist people who are voting AKP today, exactly for this reason. Even most Armenian Turks will either vote AKP, or they prefer a couple of liberal democrat independents (running in Istanbul), but they will never support the CHP.
Dear Mark,
If you try to understand Turkey and make the comment, you should go to your back garden that in ireland. In the ireland, the british soldiers are avaliable everywhere even in irish citizens' home. Therefore the point, requiring the discuss of UK policy that against to Ireland. Irish gerillas(IRA) lost many person that killed by UK troops. But why aren't we discuss this situation instead of Turkey.
regards
I known as a nationalist in my area and ofcourse i will vote to natioalist movement party(Mhp).Because, i think we are in most dangereous times of our republic. Two different opinion is figthing now. That one is Akp and Seperation Kurdish Movement and other opinion is Nationalist and Republican. It is a war withour guns for now. Unfortunetaly, EU and Usa support to AKP. But Our foregin friends forget one thing : Turkey is not like any other country in the world. You cant compare us any other country. We are like Rocky Balboa. We seen like fall anytime in match but we will win end of the game.
Turkey didnt die yet.
* 4.
* At 05:25 PM on 20 Jul 2007,
* Emily Alp wrote:
"As I mentioned in a previous comment, radical religious values take root in the uneducated, who don't sense their own potential as human beings in today's society and who eventually feel most useful in fanatical, cult-like situations."
* 11.
* At 01:05 PM on 21 Jul 2007,
* A Warmington wrote:
"I am yet to meet a mainstream religious person who will not at the slightest opportunity lecture about how people should live."
* 14.
* At 05:09 PM on 21 Jul 2007,
* Nuri Bulut wrote:
"It seems to be Europeans forgot their past very fast."
Unfortunately, not only have they forgotten their past -the Europeans don't care to think too much about their own current philosophical and logical positions either: Weren't the latest round of British bombers all apparently (reasonably) educated members of the medical profession? Pol Pot was educated in Paris, I believe. Even revolutionary leaders can read and write -or they couldn't formulate and propagate their beliefs so well. Is it entirely beyond logic to understand that even educated people can feel that their human potential is being wasted in a materialism "secular" society?
It seems to me that (semi-)educated westerners (who have little real understanding of western cultural history) are often in the front row of those telling other people how to live.
As the recent history with Hezbollah has shown -we talk so well of "democracy" but act in ways that only allow others to act on terms that are acceptable to us. What right do we have to decide who is 'educated' in which way they must be educated and what they must think and do? Surely, we only give a fig about what Turkish people do, think and feel when it affects our comfortable living -so how much is this attitude responsible for the current situation? Will the truly educated and unbiased westerner please stand up now!
In the meantime -let those without guilt throw the first stone!
I knew many top university graduates who told me that they will vote for AKP.
I also met some army officials who would vote for AKP. I think Turkey has a real democracy at this sense, because votes are given secretly. But not necessarily a free country because if you vote for AKP or Kurdish parties, you should have real gutts to announce it publicly, especially if you are working for the state; in army, or as a teacher, etc..
How much democracy there is in Turkey is indeed debatable. But this is not because of the Turks' ignorance or gullibility. Instead, most shortcomings can be traced directly to the three star gentlemen who have long claimed they are more patriotic, more hardworking, more capable than the rest of the country, and therefore should change the natural course of events, and the will of their people when it is "necessary".
Contrary to these retired generals' claims, most Turks read and write well enough. Most can (like people everywhere) distinguish what they prefer among multiple political outcomes. When the outcome people prefer is not in-line with the interests of the traditional private elite that has grown fat on protected markets or its public counterpart that survives on dole from the state, things get ugly. The military provides the heavies that ensure the old elite can hang on longer than their shrinking economic and political power warrants.
Mr. Mardel,
If you happen to meet those retired generals once again, would you please ask them what secularism means for them?
Turkey has neven been a true democratic and secular state mainly because of the role of those 'intellectuals' degrading the public. However, the situation is rapidly changing despite the opposition from some civilians backed up by some army members whose only desire is to grasp a pretext for intervention.
Short summary:
A couple of days ago I was in Turkey for vacation. Talked to all kind of people, most of them support AKP being amazed of what they have achieved over the years. You have to know that these people got used to pay more and more for the same bread, but since 4 years all prices have remained the same due to the economical policies put out by AKP. For more then 25 years the CHP and other parties seem to keep the elite where it is, and as such make a difference between RICH and POOR. Since 2 years people are able to afford a PC and have ADSL at home, this was unthinkable back then.
I also noticed that their were some people who tried to persuade the other person that things in Turkey did not go well, these people either had lost their main source of income e.g. illegal business without paying tax, due to the 'righteous' tax policies of AKP or were simply against the idea that a party was somehow religious.
It is hard to be grand children of a great but fallen empire. Turks, after having lost their grandeur, looked up to West and tried to figure out what they should do to become like them. Secular and democratic reforms have both been an answer to the fallen regime and to the search of the correct way by the Turkish people. The reforms were coined 'Westernization' by most. However, West has shown many times that they won't welcome Turks however Western they behave, simply because they are not Arian enough or they are Muslims. That is the main fault line in the Turkish national identity, and the reason for today's dilemna in Turkey.
Great result for Turkish democracy but I do not believe we Turkish voters do not have knowledge about the politics.
Personally, I do not believe AKP has clever countermeasures for Economical changes Globally.
If somethings goes wrong in Economy, AKP has no capability at all to deal with such improvements as their team has no experience.
Therefore, Turkish voters'opinion might change very quickly after a Economical struggle.
Re: Ronald Kramer's entry, dated July 22nd:
I have enjoyed reading the articulate arguments overwhelmingly in favor of AK Party's achievements. The problem with most, if not all, of the assertions of positive change brought about AKP is this: Practice is far behind the rhetoric. And, I am being generous.
It is true that the so-called secularist establishment has been consistently incompetent in almost every respect for some time. After all, this is the same middle-class 鈥渆litists" that brought religion into all aspects of life in the 1980's in order to tidy up the mess left behind by the bloody left-right near-civil war...
In the 80s, we watched the proliferation of religious institutions. Imam Hatips, medreses, tarikats (brotherhoods), etc. began to spread like wildfire more than two decades ago. Many enlightened people asked a basic question then: What would this sort of generation do when they assumed the role of adults? Considering that the bulk of Turkey's current population is made up of young people, this question becomes more important.
Under AKP鈥檚 rule, religious schools were made equal to public and private schools that delivered a Western-style education 鈥 co-educational, scientific centers of learning were put on par with schools that emphasized dogmatism. Now, the 鈥済raduates鈥 of Imap Hatips, etc. are competing for the already scarce seats in universities and government jobs previously open only to students of modern education. Considering, for example, that religious minded pharmacists and medical practitioners in the United States hinder access to abortion, what do you think will be the consequence of having such people in positions, key or not, on a far greater scale? Do you truly think (or is it a matter of belief) that women鈥檚 rights, liberalism, democracy, secularism, etc. will remain strong or improve?
If you are looking for proof of an AKP agenda, what else do you need? Why would such a progressive, modern movement feel the need to focus on pieces of clothing to cover women鈥檚 heads?
Here is more: As I said, deeds speak louder than words. It could be anecdotal, but I have seen so many honor killings this year that I find it hard to believe any law has made any difference for the status of women; just a month or so ago a father had killed his daughter, well knowing she was pregnant (He knew what he was doing).
The 鈥減iety鈥 of AKP is mostly lip service; very questionable growth in personal wealth, highly publicized, spectacular weddings, etc. are flat violations of the call to modesty by God, in Islam and other religions. So, AKP is not even practicing proper Islam, their likely specialty. Does anyone expect them to practice secularism or republicanism any better?
I think people will behave the way they have been taught in their formative years; not the way they are ordered when they are 30, 40, 50, etc鈥 i.e. habits, which are simply behaviors that have become permanent through *practice*, will endure against any half-hearted edict out of Ankara that find little practical application. This is especially true, when the sole motivation is declared (by the AKP themselves) the EU membership. In other words, they brought all sorts reforms because they were told, not on their own!!!! Is this any surprise??!
Considering that the EU has pretty much scuttled Turkey鈥檚 bid (re France, Germany, Greek Cyprus, etc.), I am very doubtful these reforms will cause *real* change. AKP would have to maintain their course for another quarter of century to just open the way for the possibility of membership (and that is big maybe). With a growing religious and conservative populace, would it be any surprise to see the reforms wither on dusty shelves, esp. when EU membership is delayed?
Looking at myself, I have to assume that my peers, who followed a "more" religious path in the 80's (and 90's), are now adults, with children of their own and have been eligible voters for at least a decade, if not longer.
What would someone, who pursued a predominantly non-secular education and, quite possibly, non-secular life style, seek in his/her future? Would they suddenly begin to think as Westerners, free and rational? Is such a thing possible? If so, why bother, then, with the headaches and expenses of education? A 鈥渂ulb鈥 will surely lit up in every mind auto-magically when they hit 20!!??
Looking at other societies that concentrate their efforts on "pious" education (like Iran, Pakistan, etc.), it is hard not say "no", that rational thinking is no match for insidious, habitual and, often, fear-based brain-washing found in religious establishments. Such, 鈥渆ducation鈥 does not simply wither and die鈥 It took a lot of suffering and bloodshed and courage for Europeans to overcome the tyranny of the Church; things did not happen auto-magically or overnight! Pakistan, Iran, etc. have no such prospects for the foreseable future.
So, the bottom line is, very important structural changes have been happening even before AKP鈥檚 founders鈥 had a bulb lit up in their heads 鈥 they refrained from the exclusionary/divisive tactics of their predecessors (Refah) and finessed the rules of 鈥渁 bus called democracy鈥 to get to "a certain destination". So, soon, the World may very well have to welcome another Iran or Pakistan -- at Europe's doorstep, no less. I cannot wait to hear countries that consider Turkey non-European today, complain of a new "Sick Man of Europe" or "European Threat" tomorrow...!!!
Reading the blog and the remarks, I recognize more and more a Islamic Democratic party in AKP, with an agenda very similar to those of the Christian Democratic parties in many European countries.
I tell you what's changed since AKP has begun ruling Turkey.They very clearly supports some fundementalist orders which despise democrasy and go even further to want the regime of Iran brought to Turkey.They placed people who are of the same backgounds(fundemntalists)and who are enemys of the presnt regime.Some so called scholars popularised by AKP deceives young girls by saying they will go to hell if they dont wear the headscarves.In 谋niversities girls from that kind of orders come to u and say:Sis, Isaw u in my dream yesterday.You were wearing a headscarf.'They are not religious but they know how to use the religious sentiments of people.As for the economy,if u dont support AKP u are getting poorer and poorer while AKP members get even their coals for the winter.They can use anyone to increas their votes.They use kurds too.Just to get more vote they claimed to have a 'kurdish problem'.I SAY THERE IS NO PROBLEM IN OUR COUNTRY.Whatever bbc,cnn, aljazeera reports from Turkey as 'problems' are believe me just biased news.PKK is accepted a terrorist organisation by US,EU etc. yet still bbc,cnn,aljazeera dont call them terrorists but rebels why?I ask British peole if Scotland or Wales wanted independence from u what would u do?To defy IRA you yourself struggled for years.Then why this doublestandard for Turkey?
As for other things,Islam means peace and decrees peace.That is your ignorance about Islam which makes u unable to see.99 percent of turkey's population is muslim and we all make prayer,fast etc. yet supporting a secular government never makes u 'unislmanic' if u leanr more about Islam u will see it is in itself secular too.Cos according to Islam u cant force anyone to be muslim or u cant force a muslim to make prayer etc.Islam says:Religion is between God and the servant noone can interfere.
Islam in it's purest form is simply not compatible with capitalism so either the majority of muslims become moderate or they stay behind progess allowing extremists to exploit their feelings.
Many arab countries are only prosperous due to oil in their countries and without oil they would be on a par with the poorest African countries.
In a capitalist country and certainly in a democratic country we have to play by a law for everyone outside of certain truths that are unexplainable or unable to be justified such as religion is.
Without basic equal law there can be no progress or growth just war and attrition and suffering.