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England shake up selectors

Jonathan Agnew | 13:49 UK time, Friday, 18 January 2008

There will be sympathy for David Graveney within the game after .

Always engaging, he opened up channels of communication within the selection process that simply never existed before.

It wasn’t too long ago that players learned their fate by listening to the sports desk on the radio but despite Graveney's recent difficulty in tracking down Matt Prior to tell him he had been left out for the tour to New Zealand, they can now expect a telephone call either of commiseration or congratulation.

Now the job has become fully professional with greater responsibility, Graveney could feel he deserved a crack, but 11 years is a long time in any role, and clearly the ECB felt that this was an opportunity to introduce fresh ideas.

Geoff Miller was Graveney’s part-time assistant and, I believe, only applied for the senior position when assured that Graveney would not be considered for it.

He brings the that was believed to be important - a moot point, incidentally - and will not tour full-time despite this entirely unnecessary, and expensive, recommendation being included in the Schofield Report last year.

Miller will travel with for the early weeks of the forthcoming trip where, vitally, a protocol must be established to decide who has the final say on selection.

Traditionally this has always been the captain’s responsibility but with the National Selector now salaried and ultimately carrying the can for England’s results, Miller may feel that he needs total control.

Ashley Giles and James Whitaker have been given the two part-time selector positions, but and, given that this will be his first summer in charge at Edgbaston, he can’t be expected to leave his desk too often.

Whitaker has taken three years out of the game after losing his Director of Cricket job at Leicestershire.

Not so long ago, however, he was widely touted as a prospective England manager, and this opening gives him the chance to re-establish his credentials at national level.

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  • 1.
  • At 02:11 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Ringo wrote:

Or you could just have a head coach who picks the squad ,team ,captain...

  • 2.
  • At 02:14 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Alan Thompson wrote:

Unfortunately David Graveney presided over the England team when Duncun Fletcher had lost the plot.If he went along with Fletcher's decisions then I have no sympathy with him. However the selection panel should be rejunavated every 5 years or so for a fresh perspective.

  • 3.
  • At 02:30 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Chris wrote:

The selection process in English Cricket has always been overly complex. There were too many people involved and no transparency as to who has the final say. Hopefully this can be put right now that we have a new head but it needs to be done right from the start. Thus the role of the Captain, the other selectors and the Team Manager need to be made clear to the them and to us - the cricket watching public - so we know who to praise and and who to criticise depending on performances and results.

I say praise and criticise - these things are necessary for the team and for cricket as a whole providing that that praise is given unreservedly when deserved and all criticism is constructive rather than vitriolic.

Finally, I hope that whoever is in charge gives two England players the rollicking they deserve for the lack of concentration they regularly show when batting:

Bell is guilty of getting out when he should be focused and Pietersen gets himself out playing stupid shots because he's frustrated.

Bell could be a very very good player if he learnt that 80 is nothing really whilst 180 is a match winning score. Pietersen could end his career alongside Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting and others of that calibre if he learnt that teams will try to frustrate him into giving away his wicket and the way to stop them doing that is to not get out to it. They will then change the field or the bowling attack and he can then destroy them...

Let's see if they can get it right, starting in NZ...

  • 4.
  • At 02:38 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Rupert Price wrote:

On the one hand I am sorry for Graveney but he did the job for a fair while and maybe change was needed. I am glad he has been given another role though. Historically I have always had difficulties with Graveney's prominence in the England set-up given his management of the rebel tour to South Africa in 1989.

  • 5.
  • At 02:38 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • ROGER TOONE wrote:

HIYA,
well new blood, well nearly, would have liked to see a totally fresh name as director and part time selectors, at £80,000 i would not minded having ago myself, touring around the country with me darling wife, stoping at top class hotels etc, good fun i reckon. i also have a couple of buddies to do the part time stuff as well, we would have pushed out several of the older players out and gone for an under 25 team, then changed our minds and got all the old farts back in again, well ho hum i suppose we cam dream, well done aggggggarrrs keep up the good work,
rjt

  • 6.
  • At 02:51 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • mark wrote:

If giles cant be expected to leave his desk to often because of his job at warkwickshire, why on earth has he been appointed as a selector, even if it is only a part time basis?

I think that its right that graveney has gone, he has been involved for a long time in the selection process. He should be remembered for playing his part in our 8 consective test series wins and playing a part in the ashes victory.

  • 7.
  • At 02:54 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Jamie Dowling wrote:

11 years in a job is far too long. England had stagnated off the field. Graveney's media appearances were always the same predictable almost programmed affairs. Yes, he improved things in the England set up and took a lot of the snootiness away but ultimately he will be remembered for his association with Duncan Fletcher, the Ashes hammering we took and the distasteful fall out and aftermath.

It's a pity but, like Fletcher, he carried on for too long.

I look forward to Geoff Miller bringing a different approach and perhaps a little more straight talking to the position.

I've got a lot of time for the vastly underrated Ashley Giles so am happy to see him get one of the part time jobs.

With a (relatively) new coach and new selection panel things appear to be heading in a better direction.

  • 8.
  • At 03:00 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Cricket fan wrote:

I would like to thank David Graveney for all his hard work and efforts. 11 years in Cricket is a indeed a long time that in itself is a tribute to the man. Well done and good luck in new role. I think this is a good move for England Cricket and I for one am excited at the changes, especially the King of Spain !

  • 9.
  • At 03:10 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Paul Lewis wrote:

I have a great respect for David Graveney, i remember him going right inot the lions den after the ashes whitewash. Facing the likes of a riled up Bob Willis, he stood firm and took a great deal of responsibility.
However it is the right time for a change, and i feel Graveney will do well at this new important position of making sure we're set up for the future.

  • 10.
  • At 03:10 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Andy Plowright wrote:


Let's give Graveney some praise here. The positives of his stint far outweigh the negatives.

  • 11.
  • At 03:28 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Douglas Lee wrote:

I can't say I'm sorry to see Graveney go; he was a bit of an old woman in a sport that needs young men, so the new blood replacing him is a welcome change.

Losing Graveney and his over familiar nickname (Freddie) calling of the players hopefully will see selection before less personal in a good way (by all means ring and talk to the players - feedback droppings and narrow selections and what we want to see from them to get back).

I do not get why Peter Moores is allowed more than input into selection. He is the coach and should be detailed what to work on with certain players.

Gilo is for me unfortunately too close to the team and hubris that Flintoff and Vaughan fell into. Maybe personally he stood aside from the others' buffoonery from the 2005 win and onwards - I hope.

Whitaker not really sure what his qualifications to select are. He offers little insight on commentary (not the the great Geoffrey B would make a great selector, IMHO). It really needs to be someone who has no foots in any camps and has good evaluation skills. I hope he is that but doubt it.

I'd also like people who look at what people do rather than what they think they did. We keep hearing Harmison is back yet we see wickets at well over 35 and even 40 a piece. Looks like a fast bowler, scares batsmen like a fast bowler (on a good day) but is not in fact performing like one for 3 or more years. Panesar on slow wickets as poor as Harm-less-son? Should we consider the wicket when picking those two? We should. We don't.

I note that no one of any great analytical bent is included. Statistical analysis in cricket seems pretty raw (plain averages! what a joke) and I'd like to see us develop some metrics other than he looks like a test cricketer (too often a good bloke in the bar or from the right school or sufficient self esteem that he thinks he is the part). We could have got someone on who was a whizz and could use ground adjustment and attack faced to revolutionise the analsys ala baseball.

I see slow evolution and arguably a greater official role for the coach (maybe enacting what happens on tour regardless). A missed opportunity.

We seem to want to ape everything about Australia except the competition for places and management that makes them successful

  • 13.
  • At 03:47 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • qj wrote:

Where's the new blood? Geoff Miller is yesterday's man as much as Graveney was. At best, this is a step sideways. If English cricket won't pay a full-time selector enough to lure a top name from the commentary booth, it deserves what it gets.

  • 14.
  • At 04:02 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • coomar wrote:

how many fresh ideas is to going to come from a person who was assistant to the outgoing man?

  • 15.
  • At 04:06 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • andy jones wrote:

We may get some Somerset players picked for England now! There has been some really strange selections in recent years but who can say if they were down to Graveney or not. Either way definitely time for a change.

  • 16.
  • At 04:10 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Hinders wrote:

Harmison may not have performed for a while, but the last 2 tests in Sri Lanka were extremely encouraging - on unhelpful pitches.

He has to have a chance in New Zealand, don't write him off yet, Mr da Silva.

Panesar has struggled to take wickets, but is still young and I'm sure he'll recover.

I totally agree with the comments about bell and Pietersen getting out at crucial times.

But I think there are grounds for optimism, rather than the usual doom and gloom merchants - get behind the new team and hopefully it will bring some decent attacking entertaining cricket over the next 12 months!

  • 17.
  • At 04:45 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Phil wrote:

Jobs for the boys! So, no change there, then. Don't look for any great strides forwards in English cricket for a while.

  • 18.
  • At 04:53 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Dave Harris wrote:

Disappointed to see Giles included in the selection committee. His (few) comments since retiring have been rather uninspiring and not indicative of where I would like to se English cricket heading.

e.g. "you might learn more discipline from Twenty20 cricket, because every ball, every over you have to be totally focused otherwise you could lose the game" Umm, Ashley - you're not focused every ball in Test cricket?? In County cricket? Surely that builds concentration better than a 20-over thrash? What about the bowlers? How do you expect them to be able to bowl to a plan?

e.g. "you're likely to play two spinners in Sri Lanka and I don't think you can afford two guys like Monty in the same team. Neither he nor Keedy can hold a bat." Unsurprisingly Ashley thinks that you should pick a lesser bowler if he can bat a bit.

  • 19.
  • At 04:55 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Rob wrote:

The coach carries the can for bad results so I don't understand why anyone else should have a say.

Haven't other sports moved away from this structure?

I think the captain should be able to represent his views but responsibility for selection should lie with the person with responsibility for results.

  • 20.
  • At 06:43 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Simon Watkins wrote:

Good luck to the new guy, so what if he was part of the old regime let's give him a chance and let him express his own ideas. He's only got the same talent pool to pick from so it won't change overnight and I don't think many people would change too much about the first choice test team anyway.

What needs to change is the banning of short term contracts for overseas players, they either commit to play all year or not at all, also the older players should not be allowed to hang on for so long and prevent young talent getting their chance. Graham Gooch has proved this can work and should have been given the job.

We're never going to create great test players if they are only being given a chance to shine at 1st class level from 26/27 years old, by the time they've learned their trade they are too old to succeed at test level and settle into their 'comfort zone' and make sure that they stop the next generation from coming through.

Graveney gone!! Not before time. I always maintained that he was not qualified to do the job. What does he know about walking out to bat or bowl for England? It was all down to nepotism.

  • 22.
  • At 07:10 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • ivan averbuch wrote:

geoff miller has been around a long time...as a gutsy batsman with the very open stance...i remember him playing for eastern province in south africa, also as a high quality cricket umpire and of course test cricketer..he did save a test match with a gutsy century againt the great west indian team of the '80s and of course as journeyman playing for derbyshire. Lets hope he picks the best team..not what the coach likes ie matt prior for keeper because he is from sussex..i think he has the credentials..hope the players he picks perform because he deserves it

  • 23.
  • At 09:08 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Adrian wrote:

So, Miller didn't want it. Giles is going to be too busy with Warwickshire and Whitaker hasn't been evolved in the game for 3 years but Graveney wanted to continue!

Why the change - because there must be one after the Schofield review that's all.

  • 24.
  • At 09:50 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • Chris Marshall wrote:

Just out of interest, I wonder whether Ashley Giles would have picked himself for the first test of the last Ashes series? If the answer is yes then he really should not be involved in the selection of future England teams.

  • 25.
  • At 09:59 PM on 18 Jan 2008,
  • firstslipcatch wrote:

Would Symonds be selected for any game-respecting or self-respecting team after confessing that he cheated????? --- I DO hope he wouldn't get into an England team after such a confession - it's OK for an Australian team though it's what everyone expects.

  • 26.
  • At 04:49 AM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • chris ward wrote:

Quite what an 80k salary is for is anyone's guess. At least half of the team pick themselves in my opinion, Cook, Bell, Pietersen, Vaughn, Collingwood, Hoggard, etc, and the sixth batsman would come down to Strauss, Tresco if fit or a newcomer like Shah or Bopara. I'd have said choosing the BEST KEEPER and three out of the four or five best performing bowlers in the country doesn't really require a full time, 80k a year job.

On another note, Freddie a spent force, anyone? Much as I think he was a great player, I can't see him coming back after so many injuries. It's a shame, but I can't recall anything of note Botham did in the last eight years of his England career either, great player that he was on his day.

  • 27.
  • At 11:48 AM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • coughers wrote:

Whether Graveney is good or bad at his job, someone should be paying the price for continuing to leave out Mark Ramprakash from the selection. He was sorely needed in Sri Lanka. Is there more behind the fact that he continues to be overlooked as a first choice?

  • 28.
  • At 12:51 PM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • Martin Lawrence wrote:

Aggers,

Tee hee! You appear to have been in your job as Cricket Correspondent of the Beeb for just under 17 years. Mind how you go (or, rather, to my taste, stay)

Bloody Hell, am I that old?

  • 29.
  • At 02:27 PM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • Andrew Frank wrote:

Ivan Averbuch ,

You have mixed up Geoff Miller with Peter Wiley.
They did look alike for a while but Miller never scored a test hundred.
He is a very funny after dinner speaker (Miller that is) but would it not be better to identify just one person to pick the team , one to coach it & one to captain it?
This approach seems to work in football

  • 30.
  • At 02:31 PM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • andrew ellis wrote:

great selection to chose Geoff Miller for top job. believe he will be honest and fair and at least inject some well needed humour, after all it is only a game. think ashley Giles is still too close to team, in particular Micheal Vaughn and is very weak in his views on the game. give James Whitaker a chance. i also believe a anyalist on board would have been of great help, and the team definately needs to be more streetwise in its planning and playing.
on the Wicketkeeping front, i dont rate Prior,Mustard,Jones, dont think read gives enough to the team, but do think Foster is perhaps the unluckiest keeper alive, the only thing he did wrong for England was break his arm. bring him back, if he fails go for the young guys starting with Davies.

  • 31.
  • At 03:01 PM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • Richie wrote:

I'm amused that people seem to think having Miller instead of Graveney is going to make a difference. It won't, IMHO. Miller is not going to find any new players that we've not heard of! He's not going to get Harmison land it on the strip, Bell turn 80's into 100's etc. I'm not knocking him (or DG) but there has to be the talent to pick from. I don't see too many county batsmen pushing the incumbents at the mo.

  • 32.
  • At 03:58 PM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • Flym wrote:

I know David Graveney has worked very hard over the last decade, and he will obviously be disappointed. However I feel that some players have not been handled very well under him and deserved better. In particular, Thorpe and Read spring to mind as players who should have been treated better. That's not to say that the blame rests with Graveney, but that he played his part.

  • 33.
  • At 04:11 PM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • Mark Kidger wrote:

Ivan Averbuch (#22) you are thinking of Peter Willey. Geoff Miller, despite his early promise, never did get a Test century. His best was a 98* against Pakistan in Lahore, in only his 4th Test. Bob Willis almost stayed long enough to get him over the line. He scored 89 against NZ in his 8th Test that same winter and, several years later, 98 again, this time against India at Old Trafford, but the Test century never ever came.

He averaged 25.8 over 34 Tests - respectable, no more and took a disappointing 60 wickets, although at the respectable average of 31 and good enough to take 5-44 against a strong Australian side in a series in which England were overwhelmed. However, often he was bowling very little because he was the second or even third spinner behind Phil Edmonds and John Emburey. Later, players like Eddie Hemmings and Vic Marks were selected ahead of him..

In other words, his career was useful, but not remarkable, although he did, briefly, in 1979 manage to get his career bowling average under his batting average (if only with both in the mid-20s). He was actually the sort of player that England have been crying out for recently to bat at 8, but nowhere near good enough to bat as high as 6.

  • 34.
  • At 07:22 PM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • Jonathan Crossley wrote:

Re Chris Marshall,

How sad that after all this time you still can't see that it was right that Giles played in the first Test of the last Ashes series instead of Panesar. How can you call yourself a cricket fan if you can't see that it wasn't simply a case of picking the best bowler but their ability as a batsman and a fielder had to be taken into consideration as well?

Duncan Fletcher quite rightly tried to pick as near as possible the team that had won the Ashes just fourteen months previously. Giles played in all five of the 2005 Ashes Tests and his match saving partnership with Pietersen on the last day of the final Test at the Oval clinched the Ashes. How could Fletcher possibly have preferred Panesar who had never played against Australia before? Panesar was being massively overhyped at the time. Even when Panesar did come in for Giles nothing changed. We still kept on losing.

Fletcher was also right to prefer Geraint Jones to Read. The important thing was that Jones and Giles had previously played in a winning team against Australia whereas Read and Panesar had never played against them.

  • 35.
  • At 08:13 PM on 19 Jan 2008,
  • Mark Kidger wrote:

There was another reason why Ashley Giles was selected for the first Test of the last Ashes: his form was far better than Monty's in the warm-up matches. He outbowled Monty in every innings before the 1st Test! Duncan Fletcher also went with the form bowler. Now that is something that the Fletcher-bashers never recognise. Monty ended up taking 8 wickets in the 3rd Test, but that was more than half his haul for the entire tour (and he bowled in plenty of matches).

  • 36.
  • At 09:19 AM on 20 Jan 2008,
  • Corin wrote:

I have read everyone's comments and note that this is a great debate - but how much money would it take to lure the likes of Botham, Gooch et al to the table? £80,000 for Miller? What a joke - is it Christmas again? The team is picking itself because of central contracts and that should be the first thing the selectors address. Also they ought to look at past mistakes - Bicknell should have been a front line bowler more often for England as his only too brief appearances show. Also Ali Brown, and I'm not a Surrey fan! I also agree that Foster is our best bet as keeper.Cricket needs charachters to run the game in this country and I cannot think of three more boring, anonymous figures than have been picked to select the national squad. What next - Brierley?

  • 37.
  • At 11:12 AM on 20 Jan 2008,
  • Pick the Best wrote:

The appointment of Giles is a dissaster.
He was a major benefactor of the Fletcher 'bits and pieces players' policy when picked against the Australians when his form and fitness meant he shouldn't have been near the team and I believe his philosophy reflects that policy. I know he's a Geraint Jones fan and I suspect he'd like to see a team picked that's as close to the 2005 ashes team as possible.
We've just got rid of Fletcher but in Giles we have someone who will bring all of Fletcher's worst ideas to the table.

  • 38.
  • At 11:22 AM on 20 Jan 2008,
  • Joey B linez wrote:

Sorry Jonathan Crossley I have to disagree.

Jones was out of form and never justified his inclusion on that tour, in the meantime Fletcher destroyed the best glovemans confidence.

When will people realise you should pick the best 6 batsmen to score runs the best keeper to take catches and the 4 best bowlers to take wickets and subsequently win matches. Giles doesn't get 5 wicket hauls, monty does. Fact! Jones dropped catches (not as many as prior granted) and didn't score runs, how is that better than read who likely wouldn't have dropped so many catches? Surely it's better to have a wicket keeper that doesn't drop the ball and scores no runs, than one that drops the ball and doesn't score runs.

I've also read fletchers book and disagree with these 2 choices completely. Monty was the form bowler having taken a shed load of wickets from the start of his international career. Giles was out injured for ages, then picked immediately. Sorry wrong decision as was proved in our 5-0 spanking when giles failed with bat and ball and monty did manage to take wickets even though we were demoralised at 2-0 down.

Fletcher should take some responsibility for this, he never has a good word for read or panesar in his book. He may not rate them and it's his choice at the end of the day but he has to be prepared to expect some flak when it goes wrong.

  • 39.
  • At 12:22 PM on 20 Jan 2008,
  • Jackie Litherland wrote:

Graveney should have gone earlier with Fletcher for the mistakes over Read and Flintoff. I hope Miller will be a stronger personality and able to withstand the selection suggestions of the media which they usually get wrong in a climate of either excitement or depression.
Just a word about the criticism of Bell and Pietersen which is entirely media lead, not without some misgivings from some sections of the press. The Sri Lankans worked very hard on getting these two out, admitting they targeted them as our best batsmen. Pietersen is in a run of poor form while Bell is still developing his game. It was the first time either had played Tests in Sri Lanka acknowledged to be a very hard Tour. (England had a similar result in 2004 and then went on to win the Ashes a year later.)
Bell played Murali intelligently and with great skill in toiling conditions. His contrasting innings in Kandy was a tribute to his range. Until Cook ran him out at Galle he was our best batsmen by a mile and yet all the media could do was to compare him to Ponting, Kallis and Sangakarra in their prime. Where were they at 25?
For goodness sake stop loading our players with constant complaint. Have we forgotten that players also respond to appreciation? Our national team won't fulfill their potential while they are suffocated by excessive criticism, whatever the selection. This isn't just a question of jaded cynicism from the tabloids, the so-called quality papers are actually worse. There is no pleasing these pundits. When we're good they find fault and when we fail they reach for the vitriol.

  • 40.
  • At 12:30 PM on 20 Jan 2008,
  • Jackie Litherland wrote:

Graveney should have gone earlier with Fletcher for the mistakes over Read and Flintoff. I hope Miller will be a stronger personality and able to withstand the selection suggestions of the media which they usually get wrong in a climate of either excitement or depression.
Just a word about the criticism of Bell and Pietersen which is entirely media lead, not without some misgivings from some sections of the press. The Sri Lankans worked very hard on getting these two out, admitting they targeted them as our best batsmen. Pietersen is in a run of poor form while Bell is still developing his game. It was the first time either had played Tests in Sri Lanka acknowledged to be a very hard Tour. (England had a similar result in 2004 and then went on to win the Ashes a year later.)
Bell played Murali intelligently and with great skill in toiling conditions. His contrasting innings in Kandy was a tribute to his range. Until Cook ran him out at Galle he was our best batsmen by a mile and yet all the media could do was to compare him to Ponting, Kallis and Sangakarra in their prime. Where were they at 25?
Have we forgotten that players respond to appreciation? Our national team won't fulfill their potential while they are suffocated by excessive criticism, whatever the selection. This isn't just a question of jaded cynicism from the tabloids, the so-called quality papers are actually worse. There is no pleasing these pundits. When we're good they find fault and when we fail they reach for the vitriol.

  • 41.
  • At 05:28 PM on 20 Jan 2008,
  • Dave Winstanley wrote:

As someone who spent a good deal of the 1980's bridling as Peter May picked a succession of players who were patently not upto test class, but had a 'varsity' background, I can't say I'm sorry to see the back of David Graveney. I'm afraid Graveney always came across as a bit of an 'establishment man' to me - not necessarily in the manner in which he selected players, but as someone who seemed too interested in keeping the businessmen happy. Geoff Miller does have Test experience, and as he knows exactly what preparation for a test series in Australia entails, I hope that he will use his influence and experience to fight for proper tour intineraries that put adequate preparation above economics.

  • 42.
  • At 12:07 AM on 21 Jan 2008,
  • Ade wrote:

Mr Graveney has done a good job and should have been retained.
Ashley Giles does deserve a job in English cricket (credit where credit is due). Mr James Whittaker however does not IMHO (no real track record). A few people have hit the nail on the head, the england selectors need to be able to pick the "Best" 5th batsman, 1st best Wicket keeper/batsman and the best spinner(s) of the moment. All the other posts are already filled.
Wicket keepers should keep wicket 1st and bat down the order (A specialist like Mr.J.Russell). Pehaps I'm biased being in Glos !.

  • 43.
  • At 08:04 AM on 21 Jan 2008,
  • Ralph Brooker wrote:

I'm unsure what to make of the selection panel shake up. Part of their responsibility will be to reverse the unprecedented series of disasters that have characterised English cricket since the fateful and regretable summer of 2005.

It is now painfully obvious that winning the Ashes came at an over-inflated cost. I can't recall who it was, but a ´óÏó´«Ã½ writer on these pages posted a sobering antidote to the salutory stuff that was being bandied about (England the greatest, &c.). That article set out a list of objectives which England must meet to be considered the genuine article.
We/they have failed in and every item. The objectives included success in the sub-continent, radical improvement in the ODI format, producing a world-class spinner (I was horrified to learn that Monty had produced an autobiography). Fitness of players must improve. The list went on.

We are now close to being back at the pre-Hussain days. Speaking of whom, Nasser was quite right to single out mental strength as the area where England must improve. Do not be surprised to find us struggling to impose ourselves on the Kiwis in the Test series.

Good work has been flagrantly squandered by the entire England set up.

The only member (barring Matthew Hoggard of course) of that 2005 squad who escapes censure is Simon Jones. It is among the great calamities to beset English Cricket (and that is saying something) that Jones has been unable to express his talents and toughness over an extended career.

The future of English cricket looks bleak again.

Incidentally, Swann should have been given a chance to play Test cricket. I hope the new selectors have the heart for the unpleasantries.

  • 44.
  • At 01:29 PM on 21 Jan 2008,
  • Jus wrote:

I think there is a lot of work to be done, we haven't seen a black player playing for the country for a while, but we are seeing people from other countries recruited to our national team through Kolpak system. It is not doing any good for the pool of quality players that we have. Why do we have to resort to such extreme measures, is this country lacking any talent?. This is one of the issues that our selection panel has to address.

  • 45.
  • At 03:26 PM on 21 Jan 2008,
  • Ray Smith wrote:

Does this seem to be a complete waste of time? add to that completely un-inspiring!

Why a part time selector? i want my selectors to be at different grounds watching first teams to second XI's identifying talent.

Did David Graveney do such a bad job that the number 2 in command with his new ideas!? really going to do any better? most of the pool of players pick themselves - i don't need £80k to tell you that!

roll on the cricket because this is all boring me!

  • 46.
  • At 05:08 PM on 21 Jan 2008,
  • Michael Nicholson wrote:

A trend that I have notcied with both India and Pakistan, and that is they are never afraid to introduce youngsters with talent, into their senior side. Just look at the 18 year old youngster from Pakistan scoring 61 against Zimbabway. There either Pakistan or India who introduce their very young bowlers, the same way. Remember Tendulcar at 19 years of age.
On the other hand, with England, with some luck if you are 21 or older before even being looked at, let alone chosen for the senior side. Then on the opposite side of the coin, there was Mark Ramprkash in absolutely devastating form last season, not automatically picked to go on tour to India. I know that he has failed on previous occasions. But the man was in awesome form. What difference does it make when you take a talented youngster or stay with the regular guys who fail anyway, and you end up losing. Take a lesson from the sub-continent.

  • 47.
  • At 08:55 PM on 21 Jan 2008,
  • Ray Jackson wrote:

Well a bit of a shock, Graveny going, the establishment sacks the establishment figure! Let's hope that the manager selection committee is a bit more imaginative this time with it's choice. Perhaps Alec Stewart, nah, Graham Gooch, nah, Ian Botham, definately no, Angus Frazer, well there is a possible and Jonathan Agnew, yes give it to Aggers, is what I say.

Ray Jackson, true blue Englishman living among the enemy in Australia.

  • 48.
  • At 11:47 PM on 21 Jan 2008,
  • Matt wrote:

Who cares who selects the England team? Nothing can help you. How can a team go from being brilliant and winning the Ashes in '05 to losing it 5-0 just 2 years later? England, as in every sport, has their 'flash-in-the-pan' win but can never back it up.

  • 49.
  • At 01:28 AM on 22 Jan 2008,
  • brian voyle morgan wrote:

I have known Geoff Miller for 20 years. Apart from his obvious international experience and his deep love and passion for British cricket, Geoff brings much else to the table. He marshals his thoughts clearly from a base of obvious intelligence. His years on the after-dinner speaking circuit give him backbone and moral fibre, He will not wilt under fire. His magnificent sense of humour will stand hiom in good stead with players, officials, media and most importantly public. He is self-depracating and cogent. I wish him every success and believe he will have just that - success.

  • 50.
  • At 02:21 PM on 22 Jan 2008,
  • Joel wrote:

Re Brian Voyle Morgan...just how does the after dinner speaking circuit give one moral fibre? I could understand if you said it had given him a bit of a paunch and a few nice one liners but let's keep things in perspective!

Re the post itself, mere tinkering. The appointment will do nothing until and unless something is done to increase the support and investment young cricketers get in this country. In India and Pakistan a young player, if successful, can expect to earn huge money. Here we reward a precious few with central contracts which negates the need to do much selecting as far as I can see.

That £80k could be better spent improving the structure of the game to bring the young talent through and leave the selecting to the captain.

  • 51.
  • At 03:04 PM on 22 Jan 2008,
  • Dave Winstanley wrote:

The comment about us wanting to ape Ausralia was spot on. Our biggest problem is that the ruling bodies of the game in this country all put economics before cricket; I don't believe it's a coincidence that the number of world-class players produced by England declined since they started tinkering with the system in the 1960's. Sure, I know the quality of the opposition has improved since then, but we once had a system that encouraged and sustained genuinely fast bowlers, aggressive spinners and batsmen who knew how to build an innings. We hear that McGrath's accuracy was the key to his success, but when you think that we had bowlers such as Cartwright, Shackleton, Hendrick, Old, John Lever, Jackman, Brain and Selvey who were just as accurate, it makes you wonder how they would have faired in today's era...pretty well in most cases, I would think.
We need to go back to all that was good about the English system before the decline, and if that means uncovered pitches and fewer one-day matches, then that's what the new selectors should be fighting for.

  • 52.
  • At 03:04 PM on 22 Jan 2008,
  • Ieuan, Port Talbot, UK wrote:

What a waste of a wage. scrap the stupid selection policy now and change to a proper manager/coach who selects his own team.

If he wants input from other people then fine, employ a couple of people to watch the county game as scouts and report on potential players but allow the man who will be blamed if it all goes wrng to actually pick his own team.

  • 53.
  • At 08:05 PM on 22 Jan 2008,
  • Jonathan Crossley wrote:

Re Joey B linez,

So I presume you would have gone into the first Test of the last Ashes series with a tail of Read, Hoggard, Harmison, Panesar and Anderson. That would have been absolute madness. It doesn't matter how good the top six is, all top sixes need a tail they can have some sort of faith in. That tail wouldn't have inspired any faith in our top six. It would have just put them under extra pressure.

Duncan Fletcher said at the time we need to bat to eight and he was right. Don't forget the Australian tail was Gilchrist, Warne, Lee, Clark and McGrath. They certainly batted to eight. You could even argue they batted to ten. It wasn't simply a case of picking the best keeper and spinner. Perhaps there wasn't much to choose between Jones and Read's batting but Jones certainly had the edge at the time and Giles was undoubtedly a better batsman and fielder than Panesar.

You can't blame our defeat in the first three Tests of that series on the fact that Jones and Giles played in the first two and Jones also played in the third. There were umpteen reasons why we lost every Test in that series. It's easy to say nothing changed when Read and Panesar came in because we were demoralised. That's just an excuse. Read and Panesar were being massively overhyped at the time. Read hasn't played any international cricket since the end of that series and Panesar's aura of invincibility has gone.

  • 54.
  • At 08:51 PM on 22 Jan 2008,
  • Serchers wrote:

No team should be selected by one or two individuals. Clearly, everyone interested in English cricket are self-appointed experts and we're all willing to do it for free !

An opportunity was lost - selection could have been set up ala My Football Team (Ebbsfleet) where everyone in the country gets a vote on team selection.

No more biased selectors and at long last the classy cricketers of Worcestershire will get there chance ie Solanki, Kab Ali, Steve Davies, Legend Hick and if fit, the new boy Simon Jones.

  • 55.
  • At 12:02 AM on 23 Jan 2008,
  • Tony Buxton wrote:

Appoint Ian Botham as team coach and sole selector. He made monkies out of the Australians when he was a player and can do it again as coach.

  • 56.
  • At 06:52 AM on 23 Jan 2008,
  • Adam Dyson wrote:

Gravney's problems all began when he shaved off his tash!! He looked a strapping young buck before but after looked a weiry old sole which ultimatley cost him dear.

  • 57.
  • At 07:46 AM on 23 Jan 2008,
  • joey B linez wrote:

Re: Jonathan Crossley

No jonathan I wouldn't have gone with that tail at all. I'd have batting down to 7 with Flintoff replacing Anderson and had a tail of Read, Hoggard, Harmison, and Panesar, picking an extra batsman. We were never going to take 20 wickets with the attack Fletcher fielded, we needed Monty who is a far superior bowler to Giles and was on top form at the time (as demonstrated when he came into the side). Read is a better wicket keeper than Jones, ok not a better batsman but at least he can take catches (A requirement Prior and Jones fail at miserably).

I'm not saying we'd have won the first 2 tests but we'd have certainly given them more problems than we did.

Also yes, Australia do bat to 10, but they also take 20 wickets in a game, if you can't do that you'll never win a match! Our attack is toothless with Giles in the side and Monty is a potential match winner.

Australia pick their best bowlers (not bit part bowlers who can bat), always have done, you never hear about their selectors talking about the tail, because they have confidence in the guys up the order to score runs. Unfortunately this negativity is typical of english sport. We went into that ashes series 'hoping for the best' which was never going to happen. The only way to match / beat the aussies is to get in their faces and take them on. Monty was our best way to do this as he was a wicket taker. 20 wickets = a chance of a win, giles is not really a match winner.

  • 58.
  • At 12:54 PM on 23 Jan 2008,
  • DEREK wrote:

As the spectators are more clued up with regard to Player selection, the simplest way would be to have a referendum whenever a team is required!!!

Forget about the old players, who are busy keeping their punditry places by saying the correct things !!

No-one is interested in playing for the honour any more, its all about MONEY !!!

The respect and loyalty of a team is no longer applicable, its just a question of who can produce a book the quickest to further their income.

Without
Discipline- Respect- Loyalty,

YOU HAVE NOTHING!!


  • 59.
  • At 05:17 PM on 23 Jan 2008,
  • Steve wrote:

Went to a sports dinner with Geoff Miller a few years ago-his opening line was 'I didn't realise I had something in common with the guy that just introduced me-I've never heard of him either!!!!!!!!!!

  • 60.
  • At 07:29 PM on 23 Jan 2008,
  • Peter Cohen wrote:

If the captain played county cricket, he could see who was who and pick them without interferance.
If he wanted oppinions, he could ask.
The money spent is stupid, and we should let the captain captain, the coach coach, and a manager to book trains and hotels.
Simple.
If it does not work, change the captain.

  • 61.
  • At 08:54 PM on 23 Jan 2008,
  • peter_salar wrote:

I must admit I know little of miller, know too much about Gilo and smething about Whittaker.
They will need to impress the ENgland fans. I just hope that all the talk about money is little more orientated to the way the players and management perform.
We shall need to wait and see

  • 62.
  • At 02:58 AM on 24 Jan 2008,
  • sr84 wrote:

why on earth has giles been picked as a selector?? ok, he played in the england team for a lengthy period- but there was a severe drought of spinners and he is, and still is vaughn's best mate....conflict of interest perhaps??
I don't think he was ever a 'senior player', and more importantly he was never really any good....
surely they could have found at least one ex-player of real calibre/seniority to assume such a role: gooch/stewart/fraser/atherton/hussein...
Besides all this he is doing the ENGLAND job alongside working for Warwickshire...it is a joke.

  • 63.
  • At 08:25 PM on 24 Jan 2008,
  • Jonathan Crossley wrote:

Re joey B linez,

You say we were never going to take twenty wickets with the team Duncan Fletcher picked for the first two Ashes Tests last winter despite the fact it was as near as he could get to the team that had won the Ashes just fourteen months previously. There were five bowlers in that team and it batted to eight. Instead you would have gone in with four bowlers including Flintoff who had a dodgy ankle at the time and Panesar who had never played against Australia before. Flintoff's dodgy ankle was precisely the reason why we couldn't go in with four bowlers in that series. A four man attack would have resulted in an even more comprehensive defeat. If Flintoff had been fully fit your team would have made perfect sense, but because Flintoff wasn't fully fit we had to play Jones instead of Read and Giles instead of Panesar to strengthen the tail.

As for the Australian selectors never talking about their tail they don't need to when they've had the luxury of Gilchrist and Warne at seven and eight for years. They've also had reliable nines and tens such as Gillespie, Kasprowicz and Lee for years. That's another reason why Jones and Giles had to play instead of Read and Panesar. There was a time when England had reliable tail enders like Caddick and Gough but at the moment none of our best bowlers can hold a bat unfortunately.

  • 64.
  • At 08:15 AM on 25 Jan 2008,
  • Derek wrote:

Well hopefully Geoff Miller, of my county Derbyshire, who played with the great Bob Taylor, behind the stumps recognises a wicketkeeper, when he sees one, which Graveney et al certainly couldn't. Matt Prior in the days of Bob Taylor, Alan Knott would have been told by the counties to stick to his batting and forget trying to keep wicket.

  • 65.
  • At 02:01 PM on 25 Jan 2008,
  • Tony Sansome wrote:

I think we are being a little hasty here in damning these appointments, before we have a chance to see if they work...

Word of defence for James Whittaker, yes his international career consisted of only 1 cap in a winning Ashes test ( replacement for the injured Botham ) but he was an excellent captain & administrator for Leicestershire, and working with Jack Birkenshaw they won the county championship twice in 2 years during the last 1990s, with no star players, and an overseas player that couldn't get into his countries test team, and he helped gel the team into an unbeatable side, now Leicester are a small county, with I believe the smallest membership, so that's no mean achievement.

Just give them a chance

  • 66.
  • At 11:48 AM on 26 Jan 2008,
  • T.M.HOSANGADY wrote:

GRAVENY has done a great job in raising the pitch of the ENGLAND TEAM
i WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT SOMEONE FROM THE COMMENTARY BOX who can think out of the box would be more suited to fill the place rather than giving it to MILLAR.Past performance doesnot guarantee future performance.

  • 67.
  • At 02:32 PM on 26 Jan 2008,
  • Michael Nicholson wrote:

About my comment on 21 January last, about both India & Pakistan not being afraid to put promising, talented teenagers into the senior team, has proved correct, judging from Pakistan's youngster batsman and India's youngster fast bowler, both in their teens.
Come on English selectors. England also has such youngsters. Seek them out and stop setting age limits, as to when someone is ready to be placed on the firing line.

  • 68.
  • At 08:14 PM on 27 Jan 2008,
  • daniel baker wrote:

David graveney did well with England but I thought his time was up when he selected the team for Sri Lanka he shouldnt have bought back pior.He should have tried something more expansive by bringing in James Foster and selecting Ali cook for the one-dayers is one of the most ludicrous selections he is the most negative batsman in the England team so why select him for one day cricket.

  • 69.
  • At 06:22 AM on 28 Jan 2008,
  • Rab wrote:

Shouldn't the ´óÏó´«Ã½ be paying more attention to the goings on in Australia? No ball by ball commentary and no comment on what has been a fantastic game of cricket at the end of a competitive series - a rare thing in world cricket today. Come on Aggers and co...

  • 70.
  • At 10:37 AM on 28 Jan 2008,
  • gary davis wrote:

what english cricket needs is a straight talker,get botham on board

  • 71.
  • At 04:38 PM on 28 Jan 2008,
  • Paul Baily wrote:

Is this part of the overall plan to restructure the game?

Far too often when Graveney spoke he seemed to be speaking on behalf of others and as such was a mouth piece of the process.

As a professional he was an average County pro who was a steady but not dynamic performer and this seems to have been the style he did this job.

Englands cricket structure is way way to complicated and there are far to many barriers even to-day which blocks,frustrates or prevents talent rising through.

For instance had Sharma the young lad who has just had an excellent debut for India been English he would probably be playing County Second XI cricket and playing in a top Club side...

Graveney hands over the reigns to someone who at least has played Test cricket and I hope we see a change in the policy of picking tried and trusted players based on 5 or 10 years hard graft in the County system.

Cook of Essex(although he hasnt played much for the County) is an example of the system working properly.

I hope Miller is able to bring new enthusiasm and new thinking.Lets give the guy time and hope he is his own man and not someone who does the right thing by the media.

  • 72.
  • At 09:33 PM on 31 Jan 2008,
  • Keith, Glasgow wrote:

Sorry, being a Scot, maybe I am not allowed to comment on the above thread, though I watch England Cricket whenever it is on my telly here in Glasgow?

Graveney a good guy I think... nothing at all against Geoff Miller...

Wicket-keeper... we just need to face up to the fact that we don't have an Adam Gilchrist as a WK/Bat... Alex Stewart is the only remotely comparable candidate.... but he is long-since in the past...

Most of our recent W/K/Bats are piss-poor BUT good luck to them, none of them are born a Gilchrist... we need to give them the best opportunity and support their development.... Mustard is head of the Q for me, Prior etc did not deliver, need a new pair of gloves in NZ...

  • 73.
  • At 09:38 PM on 31 Jan 2008,
  • Keith, Glasgow wrote:

Sorry, being a Scot, maybe I am not allowed to comment on the above thread, though I watch England Cricket whenever it is on my telly here in Glasgow?

Graveney a good guy I think... nothing at all against Geoff Miller...

Wicket-keeper... we just need to face up to the fact that we don't have an Adam Gilchrist as a WK/Bat... Alex Stewart is the only remotely comparable candidate.... but he is long-since in the past...

Most of our recent W/K/Bats are piss-poor BUT good luck to them, none of them are born a Gilchrist... we need to give them the best opportunity and support their development.... Mustard is head of the Q for me, Prior etc did not deliver, need a new pair of gloves in NZ...

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