大象传媒

I would sooner put the question: Is fear turning to anger?
1. Court caved. The Financial Times said 鈥淕erman politicians declared the road clear for the creation of the eurozone鈥檚 (500 billion euro) rescue fund after the country鈥檚 constitutional court rejected a petition to block it.鈥� Now 2 EZ rescue schemes exist. The European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) is running out of funds. Germany鈥檚 High Court approved the European Stability Mechanism (ESM).
Originally it was scheduled to take effect July 1. Germany鈥檚 parliament was still debating: Constitutional Court approval is required.
If passage was linked to constitutional law, Germany鈥檚 first post-war national referendum would've been required. It stopped short, approved what seems to lack legitimacy...& in the end won鈥檛 work.

With new scheme came conditions. The Financial Times said those imposed appear less onerous than feared. Hmmm...The Court ruled Germany鈥檚 maximum 190 billion euro liability can鈥檛 be increased without its ESM representative approving it. According to Court President Andreas Vosskuhle:
鈥淣o provision of this treaty may be interpreted in a way that establishes higher payment obligations for the Federal Republic of Germany without the agreement of the German representative.鈥�

It also insures Bundestag involvement. Under German law accompanying ESM approval, the parliament must approve its representative鈥檚 positions. It鈥檚 unclear if full parliamentary or budget committee voting is required...and that's just it: Everything (to me) seems just so unclear, non-transparent...frightful...

Further condition: mandates that Bundestag and upper chamber Bundesrat (representing federal states) are kept fully informed about bailout fund activities.
Vosskuhle called the Court ruling provisional. Full proceedings will follow. A final decision is expected in (Forget October.) December. The Court plans a full review of ESM鈥檚 legality. At the same time, it said it won鈥檛 accept ESM interpretations to permit direct ECB borrowing. Checking ESM LEGALITY???
Germany is the only ez country that hasn鈥檛 ratified the treaty establishing ESM. Doing so is required to make it operative. It鈥檚 likely rubber stamp. Again does it matter? Serious internal opposition exists. The group Mehr Demokratie (More Democracy) sued the High Court to halt ratification. It claims approval entails 鈥渦nlimited and irreversible liability risks.鈥� It wants a referendum held to let Germans decide how their money will be spent. Seems Democratic to me.
Christian Social Union member Peter Gauweiler called accepting new liabilities irresponsible. Members of Chancellor Angela Merkel鈥檚 Christian Democrats are skeptical. Wolfgang Bosbach has mixed feelings. Oh my! Where is ESM headed?
In June, Germany鈥檚 Bundestag approved ESM. President Joachim Gauck is free to sign it. His signature IS REQUIRED.
ESM and EFSF will operate in parallel until mid-2013. At that time, ESM will be on its own. Germany must provide 27% of its funds. Critics warn amounts will end up much more than anticipated. Risky, frightful...and I'm getting angry!
It appears what we have bought is time; all else is is unresolved.
Current policies are pushing Europe into mired depression. Expect 5 to 10 tough years. China is a question-mark, and the Federal Reserve is apparently creating more debt, and then buying its own debt in bonds (If that sounds crazy, it is!).
I fear most for Democracy. I get angry most about contiunuing to alleviate the toxic debt of bankstas.
Much worse awaits...

The German decision is far from clear --as yet-



Although yesterday when Bernanke promised to spend all that is needed to get the American economy going -- the Euro and gold took off like rockets -and still are continuing.

Who is selling $ and buying Euros ? --Asians and/ or Americans ?

It is too early to say what is happening -- but this knee jerk (?) --is suggesting that Merkel may be more trusted than Bernanke on financial matters.

Many European govts are more incompetent than ineffectual --they always have been.

Some may have entered the EEC and EU to plunder rather than contribute -- those days are coming to an end-- if Merkel gets her way.

Anger/Fear?

The real target for the people's rage should be the banks and the way that the governments of Europe have singularly failed to control them - in fact it is blindingly obvious (except to the Governor of the Bank of England as he live in a la-la land completely divorced from reality) that the banks are controlling the states.

We have had the best part of five years for the regulators to get control of the banks and they have done absolutely nothing. They are well aware of the problem and talk endlessly about being to big to fail yet what have they done about it - nothing - in fact whenever there is a bank in trouble the regulators amalgamate it with another bank making the problem even worse.

This is the real issue.

Until it is resolved there is only one way that the UK, European, global economy can go - downwards with stagnation as the best outcome - but in reality an ever deepening depression.

This does not have to be the case! We can escape the disaster of multi-generational unemployment of ever decreasing loss of production. The solution come from the realisation that the kicking the can down the road and ever lower interest rates is the problem - not the solution. The madmen in power simply do not understand money. It is not difficult to do so. The key is to understand that to regain economic efficiency money must always retain a positive price. Zero interest rates are the disaster.

The government must put up interest rates and until they do we will all get poorer and poorer and less and less productive and efficient. This is the core of the economic problem, not the Euro or Dollar.

Relative euphoria followed US announcements about printing 40 billion per quarter, etc.

Only those who followed Bob Woodward's new book interviews seem aware that the US crisis has simply been postponed until after the November election. When this dawns on Europe, market chaos should follow.

Banking/Zero Interest Rates/Destruction of Money are these the signposts of the real Ford Madox Ford like 'End of the Parade'?

Who will write the definitive narrative of the end of capitalism that we live through? The economic generals are just as stupid, incompetent, vain and petty as any Great War General, only more so. Now the destruction is of the whole system that underlies all western market based economies - namely money itself. This cataclysm into which we are all falling day by day further away from the the end of economic stupidity is driving our whole society to a destructive transition to a much more economically brutal end. We have the dubious privileged to be living through the end of three thousand years of economics as we have known it - all because the idiots and dolts who we have chosen to run the system on our behalf are focussing on the wrong thing - preserving the bankrupt banks.

We have been fortunate to live through a successful system where we permitted ourselves to believe that there was a trusted and valuable means of exchange and store of value called money. Our trusted idiots have destroyed money itself. The decline happened from the late 1990s and accelerated during the noughties we have now reached the absolute end of money - the idiots King, Bernanke etc, like the Generals of the Great War, have entirely destroyed it.

We must turn back and recreate a positive price for money as we are presently watching the end of our parade.

Scratch most 麓angers麓and 麓fears麓ooze out --anger at the unemployed masses and its destructiveness, is really the fear of also being unemployed --or even much worse, landing on the streets homeless.

Europe still has it 麓relatively good麓when compared with America --where sleeping in cars is illegal and enforced --- and where poverty means Poverty with a capital 麓P麓.

Many (most) national governments have proven themselves to be not 麓ineffectual麓but incompetent---this is what voters must contend with, the dilemma is clear --new radical (anti-EU) parties that will inherit 麓bankruptcy麓-- or choose the same old clique --that will inherit Merkel and her 麓piggy bank麓--but not only.

National govts. also have a problem --praise the EU and expose themselves to ridicule ?



--an EU guide especially for the Brits. (2008). A pity it has not been updated.

Billions are being re-distributed both within the Eurozone and the EU, with assistance 麓tailor麓made. Without mentioning Greece --if it pays 5 % for projects --The EU will pay 95 % !.

An anti-EU and anti-EU UK architect friend -- is now on his 2nd EU subsidized community project (in the middle of nowhere). The first subsidy was for 80,000 Pounds.

It麓s a pity that Merkel麓s speech to the Bundestag after the Constitutional Court ruling was not translated and distributed --

--Hers is the 麓only game in town麓 -- everyone should bring a bottle they honestly can afford -- but first the rules made clear to all --and they are up for discussion.

Lest we forget--



"The Joint IMF-World Bank's comprehensive approach to debt reduction is designed to ensure that no poor country faces a debt burden it cannot manage. To date, debt reduction packages under the HIPC Initiative have been approved for 36 countries, 30 of them in Africa, providing US$76 billion in debt-service relief over time. Three additional countries are eligible for HIPC Initiative assistance."

-- for comparison.

The are many intimations that we are experiencing a "twilight of the gods" in our systems, our media and our values.

Fascist-like dictatorships are the likely result.

How are we to avoid this result? How can the media help? What political actions would avoid such a result?

#9 madmax

"Fascist-like dictatorships are the likely result."

-- why did you 麓pick-on麓 Fascism ?

--If you are considering only the idea of Racial (or National) superiority and the oppression used to further those aims -- that began way before Fascism --and still remains popular (over centuries) by societies attempting to justify their existence.

madmax

Re: #10

(over centuries) was deliberately chosen --I didn麓t wish to bring the Neanderthals into the discussion.

"Fascism" has, for me, no racial overtones and only the ethnic connotations of nationalism. I think of the responses of the 1930s- of Dollfuss in Austria and of Mussolini in Italy, etc.

Specifically, National Socialism in Germany was not "fascist".

"(True, the court imposed a few conditions, but as is the way with these things, no one worries about the conditions until later.)"

--Many a true word said in jest ?

-- Now the `small print麓 is becoming larger under the magnifying glass.

" The court gave the green-light for the ESM-- but the conditions will stop the ECB from 麓gambling麓 with any German tax-payers money for the ESM or bank rescues -- 麓on its own麓and without 麓Germany麓s permission麓

-- as Angela said -- " It was a good day for Germany" (?)

#12 madmax

What would be your 麓short definition麓of Fascism ?

Distinguish "fascism" from Stalinism and from National Socialism.

There is dispair and disgust with the operation and results of the existing political process and with the increasing polarization of society. A leader is sought who will make the trains run on time and quickly bring the internal fighting to an end, providing a productive place for all.

Dollfuss sought to implement Papal social encyclicals. Mussolini sought state regulation of both labor and business without disturbing the social structure.

As Western society experiences its twilight of the gods, the "new order" will be either revolutionary in the sense of Stalinism or National Socialism or fascist in the sense of Dollfuss or Mussolini et al.

In Western society, I think the latter more likely.

madmax

OK --#14 stupid question.

"Mussolini said that Fascism is revolutionary against liberalism "since it wants to reduce the size of the State to its necessary functions."

"Roderick Stackleberg places fascism 鈥� including Nazism, which he says is "a radical variant of fascism" 鈥� on the right, explaining that "the more a person deems absolute equality among all people to be a desirable condition, the further left he or she will be on the ideological spectrum. The more a person considers inequality to be unavoidable or even desirable, the further to the right he or she will be."

Source -

madmax

-- which countries (societies) do you feel are more advanced --on the path to Fascism ?

madmaxtheprof9, quietoaktree

Isn't the key factor for those that see the risk to always speak out against all and every whiff of protectionist and exclusive nationalism.

I hoped that my 'End of the Parade' piece above(#6) was a warning as much as it was an observation.

People of sense and perception need to advocate Internationalism above Nationalism particular in this pre-war situation. All race hated and race superiority or exclusivity must be vociferously resisted for the siren voices of the easy solution of blaming the foreigner too easily turn to irrational hatred and war.

But to prevent, what historically seems almost inevitable, it is vital that every effort is made to reinforce internationalism. The World cannot afford a new collapse into internecine rivalries.

We must actually tackle the fault-lines in capitalism - kicking them down the road will not do. We must not fall into the trap of appeasing the bankers. The UK must also join in with the EU properly and not remain semi-detached dreamers for some mythical 19 century arcadian nirvana. We must irrevocably declare that we will use the same currency as the rest of Europe and agree to a shared banking regulation. We cannot remain as a haven for robber barons.

For a unique source about how these isms arise and their implementations, see: "Faith, Genes and History: Eastern and Western Views" (Amazon, Ingram, etc.)

#18 Yes, I think that boosting internationalism (and a reorganization of the UN) is definitely a thing to do.

About pounding banksters- this is already underway, but I think it leads to more polarization and radical solutions.

Are some avoiding my question(s) ?

#20. madmaxtheprof9 wrote: "pounding banksters- this is already underway, but I think it leads to more polarization and radical solutions"

The banksters are continuing the destruction of capitalism and the furthering of their own from of extremism. We must decisively reduce the power of these robber barons or their drive to ever increasing inequality as the rob more and more of the peoples wealth will without doubt create the exact conditions required in the past to create racist fascism. (See the objectification of evil in the form of the Jewish bankers by the Nazi regime.)

The people must reform the bankers before they destroy the entire liberal capitalist system and create the conditions precedent for war. (See the demonstrations in Spain and Portugal today.)

#17 Don't know. Fascism can come overnight, for example, with Orders in Council. Spain, Portugal and perhaps France seem ready for strong solutions. The USA could arrive there without knowing it.

#23 madmax

"The USA could arrive there without knowing it." ?

-- Am I correct then that you would not put 麓Ayn Rand-ism麓(objectivism) and 麓Tea Party-ism麓-- close to (if not) Fascism ?

#23 madmax

-- why did you omit Greece --by error ?

#24 Yes. I see fascism arising from these feelings:

"There is dispair and disgust with the operation and results of the existing political process and with the increasing polarization of society. A leader is sought who will make the trains run on time and quickly bring the internal fighting to an end, providing a productive place for all"

Rather than from a specific ideology, as the Tea Party negatively seeks.

As a political editor, Mussolini spouted many phrases, but they did not correspond to the reality of what the people sought.

#25 I don't know enough about Greece to comment. They have had government by military junta in the past, but appear to be individualists to me. Thus, I would ignorantly speculate that they would opt for anarchism rather than fascism today.

madmax

-somehow I can麓t make the logical leap to Fascism--probably because 麓-isms麓 must have some things in common if a society is expected to function.

I suppose a disintegrating society and a 麓free for all麓may be construed as 麓individualism麓-- but not if there are common aims within it --and the aims include denial and rejection of personal or societal responsibility.

#22 J_f_H

"create the conditions precedent for war. (See the demonstrations in Spain and Portugal today.)"

--Against whom ?

or

--civil war ?

#29. quietoaktree wrote: "precedent for war."?

When we saw the end of the cold war and the reunification of Germany the situation in Europe transitioned to a state similar to that it was pre-war (that is pre The Great War). All that prevents the historic rivalries from re-emerging is the EU and the UK seems determined to destroy that one last remaining bulwark.

The British people's politicians are singularly inept and walk into wars - if not create the conditions that inevitably and predictably lead to war. (I'll not elaborate on this statement as it requires analysis of the daft positions adopted prior to the First War and then those between the wars.)

"Against whom?" - almost anybody stupid enough - that rules out nobody! I am not going to be drawn into writing a Erskine Childers's like Riddle of the Sands for the modern age as it would be an unwise hostage to fortune!

"Civil war?" - possibly if the burden of austerity is inflicted only on the poor and the bankers continue to be let off scot free. There is so much hatred being fostered by the press.

Even the 大象传媒 is paying its part with its move to twitteresque comments (the 400 character limit). Brevity leads to extreme positions and glib easy answers these in turn lead to the fostering of distrust and hatred. I recall predicting that the Croat media were doing exactly the same prior to the recent Balkan Wars in an email discussion with the 大象传媒 Today programme at the time. News media are very dangerous in a time of mistrust as the fomenting of conflict makes for good easy news (which is of course bad news!).

Hope

Apart from a very firm commitment to the EU and the UK in the EU the other step that is vital to reduce the risk of conflict is to actually ensure the progressive reduction of inequality within the UK.

However I would assess the risk of conflict now to be higher than it has been since the Cuban Missile Crisis and rising every day. All caused directly by the collapse of capitalism because of the incompetent regulation of the banks resulting in the destruction of money. The blundering idiots created not just a Weimar Republic, but a entire Weimar Western World!

#30 J_f_H

-- Can follow your argumentation -- need some time to think.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Why the characteristics of Britt's "proto-fascism" were censored is unknown to me. Perhaps the role of the then Pope in fostering fascism is unknown to our young censors.

Fascism offered to organize and discipline the masses, to secure for them a fairer share of society鈥檚 wealth, and to make them behave. (In essence, this was a reprise of the Bonapartism that succeeded the French Revolution).

During his years of training in Italy, Peron developed an appreciation of Mussolini鈥檚 system. As did the Church, he sought a third way between 鈥淵ankee imperialism鈥� and international socialism. As did the Church, he fought to wipe out the spirit of individualism.

鈥淧roto-Fascism鈥� was illustrated by post-War regimes in Portugal, Greece, Chile and Indonesia. Lawrence W. Britt compared the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco鈥檚 Spain, Salazar鈥檚 Portugal, Papadopoulos鈥檚 Greece, Pinochet鈥檚 Chile, and Suharto鈥檚 Indonesia. He did not review Austria under Dollfuss, which was closest to the Fascism advocated by the Vatican.

These are facts, not opinion, and well known to scholars. Britt's perception of "fascism" differs from mine in that I see it as a dictatorship regulating the relations of labor and business and do not agree that F. D. Roosevelt's government in the USA was fascist.

If our young censors want to supress this, then let us take the matter before presumably more mature supervisors.

#30 J_f_H

To concentrate on your 1st paragraph -- I generally agree, perhaps our interpretations differ. This link is particularly interesting as you yourself also consider (and accept) some societal continuum.



What was at stake (and in question) was the 麓Infallibility of Kings麓--all over Europe. The 2nd World War ended blatant European Feudal oppression and the acceptance by some of the UK elite of Fascism, as a possible answer to Communism, which would have removed their privileges (and social standing).

The returning British troops received their de-mobilization suit, a pair of shoes, an NHS and nationalizations of War and essential industries. There is little remaining, except Feudal celebrations, orgies, breasts and military deployment.

The EU idea of wealth and Rights distribution is a danger -- not by a firing squad -- but ever increasing political insignificance-- being defended by even more wishes of EU opt-outs.

" and the UK seems determined to destroy that one last remaining bulwark."

-- Cont..

#34 Cont..

2nd Paragraph--

"The British people's politicians are singularly inept and walk into wars - if not create the conditions that inevitably and predictably lead to war. "

--Are you not 麓passing the buck麓 with that statement ?

The Warlord tradition is firmly anchored and demonstrated at every opportunity --whether 麓free thinking麓politicians agree or not --the 麓system麓has it as its base and pinnacle.

As comparison Germany (and Germans) --are dragged 麓screaming麓into conflicts they cannot avoid. It is rather hypocritical to have 麓Maggies麓troops still stationed there -- to prevent German 麓militarism麓 -- and yell at them for not going 麓willingly麓 into every 麓Tom Dick and Harry麓s battles.麓--(which not only Britain is guilty of)

Cont...

34. quietoaktree wrote: "Infallibility of Kings"

Hmm. These Kings (and capitalist barons of industry) were, and indeed are, captives of the market.

Our present problem is that we have fundamentally collapsed the market by destroying money in a way that has never ever been done in the last 3000 odd years.

There is no market because the lubricant of the market, money, has a zero price. The idiots of Threadneedle Street and the Fed (and indeed the Japanese monetary management institutions) are all to blame. They simply did and still do not understand haw necessary it is that money has a positive price for capitalism to function in the manner describes ever since Adam Smith.

What must be done is to restructure banking, decisively remoulding the too-big-to-fail excuse for inaction and re-establish the proper prudential price of money.

No 'ism' can function without prudentially priced money!

35. quietoaktree wrote: war...

On War (as a continuation of politics by other means) Clausewitz!

No, I don't think I am passing the buck. Politicians are almost always a combination of arrogant, ignorant and wrong - history has shown that. They also are almost always completely devoid of the 'vision thing', being unable to logically and rationally asses the consequences of their stupidities. (Or if you take the opposite view you must believe in the existence of evil.)

There is a huge body of evidence that the absurd reparations forced on Germany after the Great War contributed to the rise of National Socialism with all that entailed. Just like the USA allowing the production of a video abhorrent to 1.4bn Muslims this week. These men are either daft or evil - take you pick.

I cannot believe in the existence of evil on earth so they must therefore be daft!

#34 J_f_H

-- We probably both agree that the EU has (up till now) done a pretty good job of 麓wealth distribution麓for countries and regions. The un-realistic demands for 麓instant wealth麓by some countries has presently sunk (postponed?) EU aims. The 麓Paymaster General麓 Germany has been especially hard hit. First came re-unification, then the famous banking crisis麓s and now this massive debt crises. German austerity began at re-unification, and since then has never stopped. I won麓t go into details of the 麓austerity麓--just to say, the recent pension level scare after 40 years working and at 67 years -- was the final straw for the majority.

A similar situation as in the UK is developing -- with your pension application --comes your 麓social麓application.

The EU has done all it can for the 麓ideal麓 --its now up to governments and citizens --they can 麓pick up the Gauntlet麓 OR --the pieces -- the choice is theirs.

I like your 麓Weimar麓comparison, however feel small 麓Civil Wars麓 more likely in the future than anything big.

Without mentioning Greece --it is possible they will be satisfied with 麓a bowl of rice or millet麓-- as many in the past and present, on other continents -- still are.

End of monolog !

(anything missed ?)

J_f_H

--we are coming at the problems from two different angles.

Two friends walk down a beautiful country road with nature at its best.
At the end of the road one says to the other "now I can really appreciate God麓.
The other replies 麓God ?麓

"Yes" says the first "don麓t you feel and see all the goodness around us ?"

The second replies with surprise " I see nothing good about being eaten alive !"

--I believe in evil麓s existence -- or should I say the 麓absence of Good麓?

The "absence of Good" is a valid perception. The individual gene (each of some 20,000) seeks to preserve its own existence and this is the mechanistic meaning of life.

Enter then the prefrontal cortex and the arcuate fasciculus, facilitating ideology. Verbal systems are constructed in the hope of bettering the existence of the human organism. Since it is only symbols that are being manipulated, there is no limit to the systems that can be so constructed.

#40 madmax

--"The individual gene (each of some 20,000) seeks to preserve its own existence and this is the mechanistic meaning of life."

--Genes are 麓faeces scared麓-- one false step and everything dies. They are continually making compromises -- the state of the extra-cellular matrix must control them -- diffuse central govt. -- with accepted dictatorship and no freedom of choice.

-- however do not accept your original statement -- there is no room for 麓individualism麓.

--such is life.

Europe: is anger turning to fear?

--It could be much worse --fear and anger ?

Now the UK wanting to 麓give up麓 麓Sovereignty麓 to the EU and ECB ?

/news/world-europe-19621205

As fear increases, so does the desire for a strong leader and the willingness to sacrifice liberal niceities. Thus, fascism looms.

#44

--Ayn Rand and the Tea Party ?

--fit your description.

'42. At 07:08 18th Sep 2012, quietoaktree

--It could be much worse --fear and anger ?

Ah well, in driving the latter at least, and most certainly in the cause of 'two wrongs' let's see what this can add if only showing all are as bad as each other when opening mouths. At least we can be pretty sure than anything said in public is unlikely to stay 'secret' for too long.




(rather unfortunate URL there)

...and, closer to home..



'President Barack Obama said he could have "calibrated" his comments differently and expressed hope that the matter can become a "teachable moment."

Can't have enough re-calibrated teachable moments, really.

I wonder how some media covers one set from one candidate vs. those of the other?

#46 JunkkMale

-Examples are minor compared with this 麓foot in the puddle麓-- up to his neck.

--Do Mormons get Crucified ?

-- He just blew it.

(tax avoidance, humane, solidarity etc.etc.)

'47. At 15:44 18th Sep 2012, quietoaktree wrote:

-Examples are minor compared with this 麓foot in the puddle麓

If you, and the media who decide such things, say so. I can see that trading selected URLs is best left to those who just know they are right.

/news/world-us-canada-19637631

'Mitt Romney's unguarded and undiplomatic remarks may reinforce the perception that he is an ingenue in the art of foreign affairs'

As opposed to apologising left, right and centre from the awesome statesperson favoured by all whose 'art of FA' seems on par if the rose-tints ever got lifted.

I think Romney's a berk. As was McCain last time. But then I look at what is being foisted by vested interests as the alternative.

A bit like over here.

And the law of unintended consequences can be a capricious minx.

#48 JunkkMale

"If you, and the media who decide such things, say so."

The Mormon Church is noticed by its absence in the campaign -- with right.

They are now faced with the dilemma whether to inform America that Romney麓s statements are true to Mormonism --or not. I can imagine they are far from pleased at being held responsible for any misrepresentation of their religion by any 麓son麓.

Then there is the 麓Christian Right麓 do their views go as far as defending Ayn Rand ? -- Many of them or their relatives are also on food stamps etc.

Then the pensioners etc. etc?

-- Thank goodness we are not restricted to 400 chrs. --there is probably a book to fill.

-- but you are correct --maybe I麓m wrong.

After #43--
The call for an EU wide bank deposit insurance scheme is becoming louder --from one of the usual culprits.

Cyprus bought massive amounts of Greek bonds -- and also was forced to take a 麓haircut麓 they were furious.

"Cypriot banks that owned Greek sovereign bonds lost about 80 or 81 percent of their total investment, which in actual terms amounts to 4.2 billion euros,禄 he said, underlining that that amount to 24 percent of economic output.

"The real problem stems from that particular investment. If you ask me whether this was a fair way to deal with it, I would say no, this was not a fair way of dealing with it."

Instead the minister argued that 100-billion-euro writedown of Greece's government debt - a process that has still not restored the country to debt-sustainability - should have been portioned out the basis of the size of euro zone economies.

That would have meant Germany paying the most - around 27 percent of the total - and Cyprus just 0.2 percent.

"What we should have done is share that loss fairly, on a level playing field, as the Europeans do, in a manner of solidarity,禄 the finance minister said.

"If our share had been fairly evaluated ... our total loss might have been in the order of 200 million euros - one would say petty cash these days. But as I've said, our write off was 4.2 billion.""


"Demetriades, central bank governor of Cyprus, which has sought financial assistance after its largest banks reported huge losses from Greek sovereign debt writedowns, said a deposit insurance would foster financial integration.

"Demetriades suggested setting up a euro area wide deposit protection agency"

Still Enosis -- and still at others expense --with typical logic.


-- How can Europe EVER function with such mentalities ?

#50 Cont.

" The amounts involved are substantial. Total bank deposits in the eurozone total around euro 7.6 trillion, including euro 5.9 trillion from households. The euro zone鈥檚 peripheral countries, which are most susceptible to capital flight, have euro 1.8 trillion in household deposits. In the first 3 months of 2012, euro 97 billion of deposits were withdrawn from Spanish banks. A credible deposit insurance scheme would have to cover household deposits (say up to euro 100,000), which is around 72% of all deposits, in the peripheral countries. This would entail an insurance scheme for around euro 1.3 trillion of deposits."

" Germany鈥檚 current exposures are not recoverable. If the present arrangements continue or there is greater integration, the increase in commitments or debt levels will absorb German savings, crippling the economy. If Germany wants to leave the euro reverting to the Deutschmark, it would suffer losses equivalent to its existing exposure as other European countries are unlikely to be able to settle their liabilities.



--Interesting overview of the mess --with some debatable points.

The idiots are digging the hole deeper.

Japan has increased its asset purchase scheme.

/news/business-19645349

This is exactly the wrong thing to do, if it is done without reforming the banks. The global long depression is getting deeper and deeper. Until these idiotic and economically ignorant kicking of cans down the road stop thing will only get worse.

The banks are crushing the recovery. Keeping them alive is a monstrous crime against the people of the World.

J_f_H

Debt is going from the left to the right pockets --and both have holes.

"Under the asset purchasing programme the central bank buys bonds in order to keep the long-term cost of borrowing down." --Japan.

"To cover this month's cash squeeze and to pay a 3.2 billion euro government bond that matures later in August, Greece plans to issue additional treasury bills, enabling it to access up to an extra 4 billion euros of funds."

-- and bought by Greek banks at 4% interest paid !

#53

The point is that the continued amplification of the debt is making matters worse. It is further delaying the recovery.

"For he麓s a jolly good fellow --and so all say all of us !"



--Please explain !

--will you still 麓be around麓 blogging ?

""This has been an immensely difficult decision, but I think now is a good time for me to bow out and see if I'm still capable of doing anything else."

--Wine, women and song -- can you sing ?

J_f_H

Hard Talk -- Hans-Werner Sinn

Not a good interview -- but maybe of interest to you.

/programmes/p00xzbqg

'49.
At 20:52 18th Sep 2012, quietoaktree
-- but you are correct --maybe I麓m wrong.

Being correct, or wrong, is a luxury few can seldom enjoy, which may be why there are now only grades of opinion.

Which is why I feel so strongly about the opinion of the public being pre-shaped by the opinion of those who are supposed to present facts, preferably well-researched, substantiated, with fair context and unenhanced (especially in omission) in the edit suite.

Hence, on this matter, I am now interested in the 'secret' footage apparently being run through a filter before being run so excitedly by those it was provided to, and there being a curious lack of interest in the source.

Finding out more is proving tricky, as more traditional 'news' resources are proving either suddenly more dedicated to watertight oversight before rushing to share, or cannot be trusted to get too interested in what doesn't serve their tribal agendas.

#58 JunkkMale

"Which is why I feel so strongly about the opinion of the public being pre-shaped by the opinion of those who are supposed to present facts,...."

Apart from journalists try to feed their families, there is also national govt. propaganda and interest groups all struggling to justify themselves --to God and their congregations.

If personal responsibility is taken for acceptance (or rejection) of media reporting --that appears to be the best anyone can do. Failure to take this responsibility can end with one being dragged into war (required to kill) --or ending as 麓cannon fodder麓.

"Being correct, or wrong, is a luxury few can seldom enjoy,..."

There I can agree with you, but anyone who has had the luxury of travel --and used it wisely, is at a distinct advantage --especially in this internet age. But even not having that luxury, starting points at questioning 麓media reports麓 are always given.

Perhaps my first realization of societal problems existing was Little Rock, but the the denial of Sputnik ll was the most devastating for me as teenager in puberty. Getting up at 5 AM -- to see it going from one horizon to the other and still hearing for months it never existed ! -- and no internet to at least use as a confirmation source -- Radio Moscow was trusted by few.

Returning to the topic -- 麓Anger Turning to Fear麓 and "grades of opinion".

Remaking on the link given in #57 (Hard Talk) I was particularly astonished at the pointless aggressiveness shown by the interviewer. Her credentials are impeccable --but something was amiss. Wikipedia gave her birth as 1975-- she was 14 when the Berlin Wall fell.

While the author of this article also has a soup to stir-



-- it appears the then 14 year olds all over Europe and America have the same problem --they are now ONLY 37 year olds -- no memory of the 麓Cold War麓--and its after affects --even in the old East Germany and East Berlin -- for them it is also still a 麓West German麓problem.

That was quick !



`Spiegel麓 bloggers are not amused.


麓Spiegel German麓

500 page report on 麓Living standard in Germany麓 to be published -- more dissatisfaction with the 麓bail-outs麓 can be expected.