Obscure Customs in Army Messes
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- Contributed by听
- John de Mansfield AbsolonResearcher 238443
- People in story:听
- John Absolon
- Location of story:听
- Southern England
- Background to story:听
- Army
- Article ID:听
- A2521441
- Contributed on:听
- 15 April 2004
Obscure customs in Army Messes.
There are many odd and peculiar customs in both Officers and Sergeants Messes in armies throughout the world. Particularly with units of long standing. Although newly formed units soon manage to develop individuality. There is one rather interesting custom with which I had personal contact. This is the story.
In the Engineers and Artillery there was in 1941 the rank of L/Sergeant (between Bombadier and Sergeant) who could become a member of the sergeants mess. In early 1941 I was promoted Lance/Sergeant and invited by the Regimental Sergeant Major to join the sergeants mess which I did. Two or three months later the unit's role was changed and there were no requirements for several junior Lance sergeants. I, among others, was offered either a transfer to another unit in the same rank or revert to Bombadier and stay with my present unit. All the others transferred. So I was no longer a member of the sergeants mess, now this did not please the Regimental Sergeant Major who felt my loyalty to the regiment should be recognised. I might add that I had been on the right side of RSM Jack Diggins since 1938. Jack Diggins was sure there was an answer somewhere in King's Regulations. After burning some midnight oil he found the answer which ran something like this although I cannot quote it accurately. It said "if the sergeants mess on an artillery station was short of members the RSM could ask his commanding officer if he could invite selected Bombadiers to join the sergeants mess to bring the numbers up" Jack Diggins immediately approached the colonel and got his approval. So what I believe is a very rare case I became a Bombadier in the Sergeants Mess I got my third stripe back a few weeks later.
I have seen the then King's Regulation referring to this but cannot remember its number and having lost my copy some years ago cannot now refer to it. I would be interested to hear from anybody who has run against the same situation although I have never heard of it again. The actual units concerned were the 31stS/L battalion R.E. changing role to the 123rd LAA Regiment RA.
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Message 1 - KRRs or Kings Rules and Regulations
Posted on: 15 April 2004 by Ron Goldstein
Hi John
I managed to pick up a copy of Part 1 of the above 'bible' about 20 years ago, for the princely sum of one pound.It's the 1965 editition.
Point me in the right direction and I will gladly respond with chapter and verse.
Aye
Ron
听
Message 2 - KRRs or Kings Rules and Regulations
Hi Ron.
Thank you for your post I think the reference lies in "procedures for sergeants Messes" which is in between one and two thousand if I remember correctly. The K.R. refers mainly to Station Messes in India were artillery Stations held more than 1 Regiment. There was a Station Sergeants Mess as well as a Station Officers Mess both with its own trappings and silver, the regimental silver being added when the particular Regiment was on station. Due to the different style of organisation Sergeant's mess needed several members to be viable. Whereas one officer could comprise an officers mess. When the Regiments were out either on manoeuvres or occupied in a campaign the only people in the sergeants mess would be the permanent staff. Thus reducing the sergeants mess to below its viable level. There would be various courses running at the station e.g. Bombadiers to Sergeants promotion courses. The station RSM could then with the permission of the station commander and the CO of the Regiment concerned invite Bombadiers to become temporary members of the Station Sergeants Mess knowing full well that they would receive their third stripe on returning to the unit. This then was the K.R. that the R. S. M. had located although in these circumstances not absolutely correct it was near enough to satisfy a good CO. Thus for a few weeks I became which I think was a rarity a Bombadier in the Sergeants Mess. I will be interested to see if you can locate the regulation. I think the copy I had was a prewar one amended up-to-date. Old drill books and manuals make fascinating reading.
Regards.
Yours Aye
John
听
Message 3 - KRRs or Kings Rules and Regulations
Posted on: 18 April 2004 by Ron Goldstein
Hi John
After a cursory flick through the index of my KRRs Part 1 and I can see that the Manual in front of me does NOT have the answers to your query.
A thought John,is it possible that the answers lie in Part 2 of the Manual of Military Law? (as this tome is actually entitled).
Part 1 appears to contain only a list of offences for which a serviceman could be charged and Rules of Procedure seems to refer only to the proper way in which the courts should be run.
Sorry that I can't help this time, come up with a proper question such as 'Can a soldier kick a mule that refuses to budge?' then I'm sure I can find the right Chapter and Verse!.
Yours Aye (have I got it right this tlme?)
Ron
听
Message 4 - KRRs or Kings Rules and Regulations
Hi Ron.
Thank you for looking through KR's for me I should of remembered Pt11 which is rarer. I bet once you got into them you kept looking at different sections including of course section 40 which covers anything that is being missed elsewhere.
Thank you again.
Yours Aye
John
Message 1 - Obscure Customs.
Hello John,
Many years after you, My introduction to the Sergeants Mess was an eye opener.
Having done my usual thing of jumping in and doing the job that needed doing without giving thought to it, I found myself promoted on the spot with a field promotion to Sergeant.
getting back to base with my Corporals stripes still attached I went to the mens mess for my meal. I was promptly pulled out of line by the Orderly Sergeant and told to get my self to the Sergeants mess where I belonged. Duly chastened I arrived at the mess and asked the attendant to see if the WO1 would see me. He arrived and in the usual stentorian whisper said get out of here and come back when you are correctly dressed ie;- three stripes sewed on the arm in the regulation way. I turned to go with shrinking stomach as food was my main thought and I was not going to get any, the stores would be closed for lunch.
About three steps and the voice from above called me back, in his hand he had a full arm band with three stripes sewn on which he put on my arm in the correct manner. (we only wore our stripes on one arm while in working dress) he then asked if I had money in my pocket to buy the first round as he introduced me into the mess. Money? what was that? he put his hand in his pocket and gave me enough to cover my embarrassment and in we went to a totally new life.
Many years later when I was WO1 and mess president I always had the arm band in a drawer ready and money in my pocket to lend a newly introduced member though they always had more notice than I had to take it all in.
A good NCO knows that Kings Rules and Regulations which later became Queens Rules and Regulations, have the answers in their more obscure pages to every situation and can be your friend as well as your enemy. Read them and use them I was told, good advice indeed.
Regards Frank.
听
Message 2 - Obscure Customs.
Hello Frank,
Thank you for your post. Although never reaching the exalted rank of Regimental Sergeant Major as, shortly after I moved on to Officers Messes. And have had the doubtful pleasure, as a subaltern, being drilled by the RSM. I must say I have always listened to the sage words of my Warrant Officers both in the British and Indian armies. Although I must confess that my favourite breakfast food was Assistant Instructors of Gunnery.
Now just a little story that I'm sure will amuse you. I first knew Jack Diggins when he was a Company Sergeant Major in 1938, a regular soldier who joined as a band boy he was coping with the tremendous rush of Territorial Army recruits just prewar. Although only 15 (he was not aware of this) I had done three years in school cadets so therefore knew most of the drills etc. so I was doing a junior NCO's job which of course was a great help to him. Now to the story when the unit changed roles we were gathered in one place and Jack had the sergeants mess of his dreams at least 60 members one of whom was myself. Jack, of course, loved ceremonial but unfortunately due to training commitments the sergeants could only sit down together for one meal which was breakfast. Jack used to time it so that he arrived when everybody was seated. One morning he came in wearing his new battle dress with which we had all been issued. As he walked to the head of the table somebody (Not me) said "Sir your Medals are on incorrectly" Jack turning puce, looked down and said "I'll kill my bloody batman" (RSM's had batmen in those days). Now as you know this calls for a beer to all those present in the mess. Looking round at all our faces he roared to the orderlies "A pint of beer for every man in the room" and of course we had to down our pints with breakfast. Now this may have been common practice in the nineteenth century but in this case Jack really had his revenge. As he knew that we were all on infantry training after 730 parade.. He knew he could march around the parade ground with the adjutant, both moving about one foot off the ground in smooth progression watching us doing battle drills aided by our hastily swallowed breakfast beer. A great RSM.
Regards
Yours Aye
John
听
Message 3 - Obscure Customs.
Hello John,
Whilst on a course at Pirbright the Guards Depot as a S/Sergeant I came across the medal laws.
We had marched until we dropped under Guards Drill Sergeants fearsome men indeed, once on the parade ground our rank did not matter. We were then told that for the practice march past medals would be worn. Those of us who had them worried in case they were not highly polished dashed in and pinned them on then back on parade.
After the practice it was lunch so we headed for the mess. I had been warned so stopped outside and removed my medals at the same time hearing a roar as the RSM standing in the annex shouted free drinks from the hero as each medal bearing chest went past him. It was apparently his favourite pastime, laying down the mess law (medals will not be worn, only the ribbons unless it was mess night)and having a free night off the culprits.
His beady eye looked me over and I could see his brain working, Ah a wise a*** I will get him later. What made it worse was our squad beat his top team at darts so on games night we became the RSM's darts team with the threat of win or never see daylight again, we won.
I do remember having to take over worked under paid and frightened young Officers on very early morning drill. The CO. would get upset and tell them they had drill under Mr Mee next morning. That was six o clock dead so there would not be spectators and I was expected to make them feel one foot tall for upsetting the CO. I am afraid I acted more like their Dad with some work, some advice and some comforting. They would then get the singing lessons, how to give orders so they were heard a mile away and be dismissed to their long arduous day, I felt sorry for them.
One thing about WO1's like the CO. we did not have to do duties. When we had a shortage of Officers I would do a couple of voluntary orderly Officer duties to give them a break. Times had changed from your era John.
Regards Frank.
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