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GN- Was that a reserved occupation.

NH- Yes.

GN- Did he ever resent not being able to go into the forces?

NH- No, not really no. I don’t think so. Well, he was getting on a bit he wasn’t in his 20s or anything like that.

GN- Were merchant sailors on the convoys treat differently by the general people to servicemen like Naval sailors?

NH- Oh yes. It was disgusting the way they treat merchant seamen. They weren’t classed as the same as the armed forces. They weren’t allowed in naffys, or anything like that. They didn’t get paid for the days when they were in open boats.

GN- After being sunk. Torpedoed?

NH- Mmm. They only were paid for what they were. And that was disgusting, because they suffered more than anybody else. Their sacrifice was greater than the army’s! As far as I’m concerned.

GN- More risk…

NH- They had the risk, they had the discomfiture. They had the chance of a horrible death. I mean their death wasn’t going to be easy if they were on an oil tanker, and they got a torpedo in them. They were going to burn to death, or suffocate in oil. But they never got any thanks for that. You didn’t find them in any parades or anything like that. They were outcasts. Like the land army was. Because the land army were outcasts, they weren’t allowed anything like that. They weren’t classed as armed forces either.

GN- Do you think there’s been sufficient reparation in recent years? For example the battle of the Atlantic (commemorations) allowed the Merchant Navy to parade in Liverpool…

NH- They have never, ever been recognized enough, because if it hadn’t been for them we would have lost the war. And we would have starved to death wouldn’t we? We wouldn’t have any oil- where would Gibraltar or Malta have been if it hadn’t been for the Merchant Navy? No, they should have been recognized a lot better than they were. It’s a disgrace really.

GN- It is.

NH- There was no pension for them at the end of their career or anything like that, and they suffered more than everybody else. I feel very strongly about that.

GN- Did the war in a way make your family life more stable because there was so much more guaranteed work?

NH- Yes, I mean my father was on the dole for a long time before the war started. He was on the dole in the depression, when he was lucky to work two days in the month- two days in six weeks. He was on the bottom line, he was on means tests, told he had to sell his three piece suite, and his piano before he could get any extra money… and he told them what they could do with it, being a proud working class man. It was very hard for him. But he had to work two days a week and sweat a lot just to live for a month. Because they didn’t know when there was going to be another boat. That song, ‘when the boat comes in’ was quite right. Because they didn’t have anything ‘till the boat came in. As far as they were concerned, when the boats came in they could make some money, but where there was no boats coming in, before the war, there was no work; and there was depression; and people starved, literally.

GN- No welfare state or anything?

NH- No. I mean children suffered a lot, with rickets, because they were undernourished. They had no backsides in their trousers. The welfare people used to come around and give them boots, not shoes, which degraded them. They were degraded, by having to stand on a desk in the classroom, and have their feet inspected, and then given a pair of boots and no socks to go with them. But when the war started, of course, work started, so in some ways it did a good turn.

GN- Did the war affect family life in any other ways? Did it change things dramatically?

NH- It did in a way. There was more tension. People were always conscious of the fact that… you know, what was the next lot of bad news, for a long time. And then there was rationing, making do with everything they had. I think women suffered more, because they tended to feed their husbands their rations, and they did without. You got your quarter pound of butter a week, and dad had the half pound, so mum did suffer a bit as far as the food was concerned, ‘cause she gave it to the kids, or she gave it to dad. Things were a little bit tougher all around, really, I mean there was no way to get new clothes or anything like that. You had the rationing to think about in that line. If anybody got a parachute, that was great, because they shared it around and they had these undies made of parachute silk. Then there was the tension of having to get out during the night, of course, people were tired. A lot of people, I think women in particular, got diabetes and that through not eating properly during the war. It’s only my theory that, that, but I think it did them a bit.

GN- Do you remember much black market activity going on?

NH- Oh yes, there was quite a lot, particularly with your granddad. Because his father ran a working mans’ hotel, in Walls End. And they knew quite a few, you know, different people, through the Masons and that sort of thing. There was a lot of coupons came your grandfather’s way, shall we say, he had more suits than other people did have. Just before he got married he managed to find some black market coupons, and he gave them to me. I had a rather nasty experience about them. Because I had them in my handbag, and I was going to buy something for my wedding, you know, with these black market coupons. Somebody pinched my handbag, didn’t they, in Phoenix (?) where I was having lunch, and I was frightened in case the police found it with these black market coupons in! Luckily whoever pinched the bag pinched the coupons, so it didn’t come to anything! Ha! But there was a lot of black market stuff.

GN- It wasn’t quite all sticking together and…

NH- (Laugh) no! No, some people had more than others, particularly in the farming community, and that, they didn’t starve, all that much. But in towns they had to stick to the rations quite a bit. But nobody had any morals; if they could get a bit extra they took it, naturally! (laugh) Survival.

GN- Did that change as the war went on, or was it just in the worst time?

NH- No, it happened all the time. A lot of people made a lot of money. You know with black market stuff.

GN- Were there huge celebrations on VE day?

NH- Well I heard about VE day when I’d been to Wallhouse(?) I’d been to the doctors and I was on the bus, on the Berwick bus, and somebody came on, and they said the war was over. Great jubilation on the bus. Went back to the hostel. Some soldiers from the Royal Engineers came up, in a jeep, and we went out for a drink at Lowyck(?) and that was how we spent that night. But when I went home on the Saturday, there was the street party, and that sort of thing going on when I got there. People just went in and brought their chairs and tables out and burnt them, it was this great, hilarious party for… till the next morning, virtually there was a lot of celebration going on in the towns. But it was very quiet in the country. But I do remember coming down the street, I’d just come off the land army bus, there was bonfires all over the place, in the middle of the street, and that, so street parties. Yeah, everybody was very happy about it. Big relief (laugh). But I don’t know if people really imagined what life was going to be like in peacetime again. Particularly somebody like me, that was 12 when it started and 18/19 when it finished- how do you start your life again? (laugh)

GN- Hmm, It’s difficult, isn’t it? So how did life immediately after the war compare to the austerity that presumably existed during it?

NH- Well apart from the fact that we had the end of the Japanese bit as well. I mean that was… Everybody was upset about the way the prisoners of war in Japan had been treat. The photographs and things like that were horrendous. You saw people, wandering around the streets and you knew fine well where they’d been… come home again. And I think we were all a bit sad but all a bit glad it was all over. Things sort of settled down. Rationing didn’t stop for a long time after that.

GN- Indeed some of it began after the war- bread rationing.

NH- Yeah, and I was married in what? 1948. Must have been two or three years after that before rationing stopped. And I had to learn to be a housewife on rations, which was a bit difficult on rations. There was a little bit more stuff around; we used to go to South Shields market. There was some stores there that used to sell- I suppose you’d call it ‘black market tins’. A row of tins with no labels on; so you sort of bought yourself a batch of tins and hoped for the best. You know you found something that was worth eating in them (laugh). But we used to walk to South Shields from Willington Quay (?) to pick all these things up. And we always got a tin of sort of queer fish, we made fish cakes with it, you know, you spun things out. But rationing went on an awful long time afterwards.

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