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THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 大象传媒 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

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IN TOUCH

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TX:听 23.03.2021听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 SIMON HOBAN

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White

Good evening.听 Later tonight, the shape of shops to come and the possible effects on visually impaired people.听 And are we getting a fair deal when it comes to having a little flutter?

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Since the lockdown the bookmakers have essentially either closed down or cut back considerably on their telephone services, which is what most visually impaired people would probably be using most often for their betting.

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White

More from the horse鈥檚 mouth later.

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But first, what could be a very significant step in our receiving crucial information in a form we can actually read.听 A blind woman who was sent a printed letter she couldn鈥檛 read, telling her to shield from coronavirus has won concessions on her legal challenge to the government.听 Sarah Leadbetter recently told this programme about how she鈥檇 had to get her mother to read out the letter, which she argued, successfully, was discriminatory.听 Her case reflected many similar complaints we鈥檝e been receiving to the programme over the years.听 Before the case could be heard by the High Court in a judicial review, the government agreed last week to make changes, so that people can receive accessible letters and other documents in the formats they want.听 Well Sarah鈥檚 back with us.

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First, your reaction to this development.

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Leadbetter

This is brilliant, it鈥檚 absolutely brilliant and it鈥檚 just what I鈥檝e been asking for all this time, so I can get a printed letter in a format that I can individually and privately listen to, by having an email or an audio CD.

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White

So, audio is the format that you would prefer your communications in?

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Leadbetter

Yes, because I can鈥檛 do large print, I can鈥檛 see any print at all, I鈥檝e not got any feeling so I can鈥檛 do braille.听 So, yes, audio CD or an email because it reads it out on my iPhone and then I can listen to it, so audio is definitely the preferred formats I need.

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White

Now just to remind us, I know you were sent four letters in hard copy, which were no use to you.听 How long was it between the first one arriving and you actually finding out you should be shielding?

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Leadbetter

Two weeks before me mum could actually read them out to me and it was a lot of concentration to read the bit out that she should actually read to me and find out that I needed to shield and stay at home.

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White

So, during that time, you were walking around and were at risk basically?

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Leadbetter

Yes definitely, I didn鈥檛 know what was going on and I could have brought something, like the infection, back to me and my mum and made us very ill, which is not very good at all.

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White

And you鈥檇 been pressing for that for some time, under the Accessible Information Standard, that the NHS is supposed to adhere to.

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Leadbetter

That鈥檚 correct, yes, I鈥檝e been doing it for 10 years and I鈥檝e been asking the NHS hospitals appointments and important information and also from the GP to send me emails and audio information so I could do it myself and not wait for other people to read it to me.

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White

Right, now also with us, again, is Kate Egerton from Leigh Day Solicitors, they brought your case.听 Kate, what exactly is the government promising to do now?

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Egerton

They said that within four months of the dates of the court鈥檚 order that they will look at any problems in getting information about accessibility from GP records, try and fix those problems and then start any work that it decides will mean that people with sight loss can get their letters accessibly.

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White

And just to dig into that a little bit more.听 As part of what they鈥檙e looking into, they say they鈥檙e going to 鈥� and I quote: 鈥淎ddress shortcomings in the information held in the personal demographics service, which records communication needs.鈥澨� Now what is that exactly and what needs to change about it do you think?

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Egerton

It鈥檚 all very technical but as far as I understand the personal demographic service is a database containing patients鈥� very kind of basic information, so their name, address, etc.听 It鈥檚 taken from GP records.听 So, I think the key in all of this is ensuring that GPs are recording patients鈥� communication needs because if that information is there in the GP record then that information should be then extracted to the personal demographic service and therefore available to the government.

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White

Right, well, I don鈥檛 want to involve Sarah too much in the technicalities of that but, Sarah, the Department of Health and Social Care told us shielding letters were available in a variety of formats to make them accessible and are sent electronically when someone has an email registered with their GP.听 But I think you had that, didn鈥檛 you, so how would you expect this promise from the government to change the situation?

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Leadbetter

Well yes, they did say that it had been sent out in all formats but like I鈥檝e said before, I鈥檝e been trying to give my email address to my GP and hospital for quite some time now.听 So, they鈥檝e really got to listen to us and use those [sic] information from the GPs and the Accessible Standards because it is their right, for people, to have it in the format that you need as a blind or partially sighted person.

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White

And Kate Egerton, on that point, this only works, doesn鈥檛 it, if people at the sharp end 鈥� GPs, hospitals 鈥� actually comply with this.听 What difference will this development make as far as that鈥檚 concerned because this hasn鈥檛 always happened?

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Egerton

I think that鈥檚 right.听 What we discovered through Sarah鈥檚 case is that there is some level of resistance or it鈥檚 just a bit patchy whether GPs are actually recording communication preferences.听 So, I think it鈥檚 really fundamental that people go to their GPs and make sure their communication preferences are recorded and if GPs aren鈥檛 doing this, then to raise this via complaints or other means because I think any system that the government develops, in relation to the pandemic communications and other non-pandemic communications like, for example, screening letters, is really going to be reliant on this information being available in GP records.

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White

Well, we will be keeping a close eye on In Touch on this.听 Sarah Leadbetter, Kate Egerton 鈥� thank you both very much indeed.

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And we stay with access.听 We talked last week about losing face-to-face banking.听 Well, are we on the verge of losing face-to-face shopping too?听 Much publicity recently about what was described as the first till-less store with the opening of Amazon Fresh in West London.听 Its big selling point 鈥� that you could walk round, gather up the stuff you wanted and walk out, no queuing, no scrabbling around for cash or, if you鈥檙e visually impaired, making sure that you鈥檝e got the right cash card in the right machine, the right way round.听 Well, Ed Green lives near the store and he was curious about how this would work for someone blind like him.听 So, he went along to find out.听 Here are his real time impressions on his way in.

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Actuality 鈥� Green

So, what we鈥檙e going to do to get in, we鈥檙e going to open the Amazon shopping app and then we need to find the QR code that we scan on the main screen.听 Walking into the store now.

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Hello.听 How are you?

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Hi, I鈥檓 well thanks, how are you?

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Yeah, very well.听 Are you excited?

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Good, good, yeah, yeah, see how it all looks.

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Yeah, it鈥檚 pretty special.

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Yeah.

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So, we鈥檝e got the right part of the app up.听

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Hello.

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In the store now.听

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First time you鈥檙e here?

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Yeah, where鈥檚 the reader?

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Here, okay.

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Just on there?听

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Yes.

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You鈥檝e done it.

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Thank you.

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[Amazon Go]

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So, there we are, we鈥檝e scanned the key and we are now in the shop.

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White

Well Ed Green joins me now.听 Ed, what were your main impressions?

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Green

What I was really interested to find out when I went was how easy would it be to get assistance.听 Did the fact there were no check outs mean that there were no staff?听 As you probably from the clip you just played, it was quite the contrary 鈥� there were a lot of staff about, there were staff greeting you in the rather long queue to get in and making sure you knew how the app worked.听 There were people greeting you at the door on the barrier and in most of the aisles.听 So, I was pleasantly surprised at the level of staffing that there was, I didn鈥檛 know what to expect and I went anticipating that there might not be anybody.听 Now clearly, it was the first Saturday, they were opening the first store, so I鈥檇 be quite interested to go back in a couple of months鈥� time to see if that鈥檚 still the case.

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White

So, what other parts of it came as a surprise to you, if you like, because you said there were a lot of people there but that may have had to do with the publicity splurge that was going on, but what elements of it did you enjoy?

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Green

Well, it was really simple.听 So, not only do you not need to check out but you don鈥檛 even need to scan the individual items, you literally do just pick them up and put them in your bag and I wasn鈥檛 quite sure how this was going to work when the final bill came in.听 Obviously, it works on sensors and where you are and all the rest of it but I鈥檓 sure we鈥檝e had experiences in hotels, in the olden days, with mini bars where you get charged for anything you move, so I deliberately picked up and put stuff back to find out whether it would be smart enough not to charge me and I got charged accurately.

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White

Okay, so has Ed seen the future?听 We did invite Amazon to come on the programme, they didn鈥檛 want to but Catherine Shuttleworth from online retail analysts Savvy Shopper wasn鈥檛 so coy.听听

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Catherine, is this what we can expect in the future, are more shops going to do this?

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Shuttleworth

Well, I think the use of technology to help us shop in an easier more convenient and speedy way is something we can absolutely expect, Peter, and one of those will be cashless stores.听 It鈥檒l be one way that we can shop from the future, in fact from now as it turns out.

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White

And I mean, how many other retailers, do you think, will follow suit because I mean this is the kind of thing that perhaps you might expect Amazon to do, with the way they operate their business but are a lot of others likely to follow suit?

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Shuttleworth

Well, the investment in technology is the big cost here and that鈥檚 what Amazon are absolutely fantastic at 鈥� looking at technology, working out how to solve people鈥檚 challenges in day-to-day life and delivering against it.听 So, other retailers would have to invest a great deal in technology, so I think they鈥檒l wait until that becomes cheaper before they do it.听 But what we do know, which is really interesting, is that 60% of shoppers in the UK would buy food and drink from Amazon if they could.听 And that was before they started opening stores.听 So, I think it is going to be quite popular.

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White

And how seriously are stores likely to take disabled customer access?听 I mean isn鈥檛 the whole point that the kind of arrangement that Amazon have got there will save them staff costs because they鈥檙e not going to have that many 鈥� surely, as many people as they had when Ed was there?

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Shuttleworth

But what was very interesting listening to Ed鈥檚 experience and then going through it with him is that absolutely that one of the whole points of this kind of technology is that a reduction in staff is easily made and you will not find as many staff as Ed was able to do on the first time that he visited because one of the big costs for retail is the cost of people.听 But those stores have to be replenished, things have to be put back on the shelves, so there will be some people present.听 But that is part of the idea of it.听 I think, you know, what Amazon鈥檚 strategy is getting products to you in lots of different ways.听 Now in terms of disability and do retailers think about it and accessibility, yes they do.听 It would be interesting 鈥� and it鈥檚 disappointing we haven鈥檛 heard from Amazon today 鈥� about how their factory mapped into their strategy.

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White

Okay, Catherine Shuttleworth, thank you very much indeed.

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Ed, do stay with us because I know you鈥檝e got an interest in our next story which is all about this:

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Clip 鈥� horseracing commentary

鈥�fences down the straight.听 Such 鈥� oh Envoi Allen鈥檚 down, the good thing of the week is down Envoi Allen fell there at the second of the fences in the home straight.听 The horse seems to be galloping away, none the worse.听 Whatever happens now we鈥檙e going to have a surprise winner, the hot favourite of the week down.

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Well, that was Envoi Allen falling during the Marsh Novices Chase at Cheltenham last week.听 Had he won it could have fetched punter, Paul Dean, over half a million pounds.听 Don鈥檛 worry too much about Paul though because he wasn鈥檛 too disappointed, he鈥檇 already cashed out on the accumulator bet he鈥檇 made and had to settle for a measly 拢250,000.听 Well, since we鈥檝e just had Cheltenham week, we thought we鈥檇 find out more about the service offered by bookies for blind and visually impaired people.听 We were prompted by an email from Derek Gardener expressing his dissatisfaction with that and he joins us now.

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Derek, in a nutshell, what鈥檚 the problem?

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Gardener

Well, the problem, Peter, is that since the lockdown the bookmakers have essentially either closed down or cut back considerably on their telephone services, which is what most visually impaired people would probably be using most often for their betting or they鈥檝e cut back in concessions on those services and things like that.听 So, they鈥檝e driven you towards the website and the websites are challenging, to say the least for people like me who use JAWS text to speech systems with them.听 The have two aspects that are particularly challenging to me 鈥� well three actually.听 One is they鈥檙e very 鈥� what I call 鈥� very busy, which means they have American baseball, Australian horseracing 鈥� all I want to do is bet on British horseracing.听 The second is, one site I noticed doesn鈥檛 use any standards objects.听 The third is, they don鈥檛 give you any feedback pretty much, so even if you鈥檝e logged on through JAWS, it doesn鈥檛 even tell you that you鈥檝e successfully logged on or you鈥檝e successfully placed a bet.听 And actually, the fourth aspect is, if you want help you can鈥檛 get it very easily, you have to do it through chat and chat is always challenge for text to speech.听 I don鈥檛 know how well you get on with it.

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White

Not very well.听 And I think one of the other points was you thought some of the most attractive offers weren鈥檛 available鈥�

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Gardener

Yeah, they鈥檝e been withdrawn, no they鈥檙e not.听 There鈥檚 an offer called Best Odds Guarantee, which is 鈥� you either get starting price or a price that they offer and if the starting price is bigger you get that and that鈥檚 been withdrawn from certainly one major company鈥檚 telephone betting service.听 There are two particular companies I bet with and they used to offer very, very good telephone service and one鈥檚 completely shut it down now and forced you towards the website and the other one鈥檚, as I stay, have still got it going, it鈥檚 very hard to get through sometimes, can take a long while and they鈥檝e withdrawn, as I say, a lot of their concessions or certainly the major concession they give from it.

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White

Ed Green is still with us.听 You also enjoy a flutter Ed and you鈥檝e been having a look around and I mean what鈥檚 your experience of what Derek鈥檚 been talking about?

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Green

Concur entirely with what Derek says.听 I mean you鈥檝e got two problems.听 That they鈥檙e very busy sites, as Derek has said, and unless you鈥檙e sort of backing something to win then betting itself can get quite complex.听 You mentioned accumulators, you can have reverse forecasts, you can have all sorts of things and that doesn鈥檛 lend itself particularly to brilliant accessibility either.听 So, I鈥檝e been playing around this week with apps and websites and you might manage to get something on, you may well need to make sure that you did what you鈥檙e meant to do.听 So, one of the firms I tried, for instance, it wasn鈥檛 clear whether you were using a free bet they鈥檇 given you or cash in your own account because the button that was meant to change it didn鈥檛 report whether you鈥檇 selected it or not.听 And sometimes whether you鈥檙e backing to win or betting each way, the button to do that isn鈥檛 labelled either.听 And one of the problems with the telephone betting service is, now, the ones that do exist, a lot of them have a minimum stake, such that you have to spend 拢10 across the call, not necessarily 拢10 per bet but if you鈥檙e not spending 拢10 per bet then you鈥檒l need to place sufficient bets to clock up 拢10, which I think is interesting from a responsible gaming perspective as well as an accessibility one.听 Happily, I was able to get that waved this week with one of the bookmakers I use.

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White

But you actually 鈥� I think you 鈥� to get your waver, didn鈥檛 you have to go straight to the CEO for that?

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Green

Well, it was a bit like Derek said, they shut the customer service number, so I went through the webchat, who couldn鈥檛 help me.听 I rang the telephone betting people themselves and they couldn鈥檛 take your bet.听 They wanted to help but apparently they could only wave it on a one time basis, which sort of defeated the point really.听 So, I did write to the Chief Exec and to be fair their complaints team rang me back within half an hour and they sort of resolved it within half a day.听 And I rang back 24 hours later to check that it was still on the account, that I shouldn鈥檛 have to adhere to the minimum stake requirement and happily it was.

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White

Right.听 Now, of course, not everyone鈥檚 going to be able to do that.听 We contacted all the major bookies and the general response seems to be that because so few people use telephone betting compared to online or apps, it鈥檚 not really economically viable.听 However, William Hill did tell us that as a result of our inquiry they鈥檙e considering offering a similar waver, that Ed was talking about, on the minimum stake to anyone who鈥檚 blind or visually impaired.听 Derek, would a waver like that suit you best?

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Gardener

Well, that isn鈥檛 my problem Peter, I can 鈥� I鈥檓 actually quite well off so I can bet as much as I want, sort of thing but what would suit me best is if they were tailorable websites 鈥� I just want to do horseracing, I want to do a simple horseracing bet, I don鈥檛 want to, as I say, work around American baseball, Australian football, I want to be able to get feedback 鈥� know when I put a bet on, know exactly what it is and have it read to me.听 I think 鈥� I wonder whether they do actually test these websites with accessibility software such as JAWS and where they have somebody who鈥檚 really blind work with it.听 I鈥檇 certainly be ready to volunteer but that鈥檚 the challenge I find with a lot of websites.听 I鈥檝e been in software for 40 years and some of the bookmaking websites really do not consider accessibility at all.

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White

Thanks for raising the subject with us.听 And Ed Green, thanks for your work.听 Maybe there鈥檒l be some progress on this, we will continue to monitor it.听 Thank you both.

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And that鈥檚 it for today.听 Do contact us with your comments and indeed your suggestions about things you鈥檇 like us to cover.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk and there鈥檚 more information on our website bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can download tonight鈥檚 and many previous editions of the programme.

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From me Peter White, producer Simon Hoban, studio managers Carwyn Griffith and Chris Hardman.听 Goodbye.

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