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Naomi Wilkinson:
Hello, and welcome to this very special ����ý Teach Facebook Live discussion for teachers. Today we're exploring the question, are we teaching children enough about climate change? Children and young people across the globe have been holding school strikes to campaign for action on climate change, with strikes in the UK taking place in more than 60 towns and cities, and an estimated 15,000 taking part. A key demand of the strikes is for the national curriculum to include the ecological crisis. So what do you think? Are we teaching children enough about climate change and the environment? Our guests will be sharing their thoughts, giving tips for your classroom, and looking ahead to an exciting live interactive program for primary schools, that will put some of those ideas into action. Our first guest is the editor of the Association of Science Education's Primary Science Journal. She's also a senior lecturer at the Institute of Childhood and Education at Leeds Trinity University, it's Dr Leigh Hoath. Also joining us is a primary science teacher college fellow, and national expert science teacher with project infused and STEM learning, and a primary science quality mark hub leader. She's the science and environment leader at Sandfield Close Primary School in Leicester, it's teacher Sarah Eames, hello, welcome. And last, but not least, we have an educator and earth scientist. She's the Learning Manager at Manchester Museum, it's Dr Hannah Lee Chalk. Hello and welcome. And of course, you watching live are part of this debate too. We would like to hear what you think. So do pose your comments and your questions throughout the live, and we will do our best to include them. So let's get right to it. It has been on the news. Four Oxford schoolgirls have started a petition to make lessons on climate change compulsory. 40,000 signatures so far. So we can see it's on the tongues and minds of young people everywhere, but are we teaching children enough about climate change? Leigh, perhaps we could come to you first?

Dr Leigh Hoath:
Thanks. I think there are pockets where it is happening, but broadly, no. I'm coming at this from a science education perspective, and what I've certainly seen happening over the last 10 years, is since the key stage two standard tests were abolished, we've seen prioritising of maths and English in the primary schools. So subjects like science and the other subjects have been marginalised and squeezed a bit, which means that the priority is for teaching maths and there's not as much room there to put in the other big issues and some global debates that are coming in.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Sarah, you're the science and environment leader at your school, what are your thoughts? Should environmental protection be more of a priority in primary schools?

Sarah Eames:
I think it can be more of a priority. I think a lot of it all depends where you actually live. I'm in Leicester and we've actually got an environmental coordinator who organises CPD for teachers and also events for children, so we're really lucky in Leicester that we have got that support and we can do things. I've got a headteacher who is proactive and really wants us to make sure that the children look at the global perspective of things. So I think we're lucky. I'm not so sure that other schools are in that position to be able to do that.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Right. Hannah, what do you think? Are we teaching children enough about climate change?

Hannah Lee Chalk:
As a museum educator and not a teacher, I would suggest that it shouldn't just be about teaching, and there's something to do with offering children that really great chance to connect with nature and to value and enjoy nature, and get that kind of real sense of care and feel outraged when things are being done to nature that they don't agree with. Equally I think it's also about social justice, it's about inequalities and kind of, you can't necessarily teach that, you can instil as sense of care in young children, and that's what primary children are so amazing at, that their natural reaction is to feel care and outrage about things that aren't fair. And I think that you can't necessarily teach that specifically just as a science, but equally it's about exposing children to those opportunities to be in nature and to care about other people.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Teacher Ann Breeze has messaged us, saying that the central theme running through the AQA geography A level is climate change, so I think a few people would argue that this topic is very much part of the curriculum, both at primary and secondary level. So do you think there's actually a gap in knowledge that needs filling Leigh?

Dr Leigh Hoath:
Yes, I do, because not every student will choose to go on and do A level geography, and it's fantastic that that is central to that curriculum. And if you look at the geography national curriculum for primary, across key stages one and two, so across six years, it doesn't fill two sides of A4. So there isn't that emphasis throughout, and as I said earlier, there's not always the room for other subjects to come in. So I think there is a gap in terms of opportunities for teaching these subjects.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Would you like to add…

Dr Leigh Hoath:
I'm sorry, I'd like to add just that it isn't just about geography or science, and absolutely it's about kind of having the kind of power as a teacher to be able to embed it through different curriculum subjects.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Yeah, another question I guess that needs asking of course is how important is this actually. In the UK low literacy skills cost the taxpayer 2.5 billion every year, poor numeracy skills cost the economy 20.2 billion every year. With such limited time we have in the school day, should more effort be devoted towards literacy and maths? Sarah, what do you think?

Sarah Eames:
I think a lot of teachers would actually agree that literacy and numeracy are the most important things that we can give the children. But as a teacher I know that we're trying to create the whole child, and through real context such as climate change and looking at global issues, then we've got a vehicle in which to put our literacy and our numeracy. You said lots of statistics there, and when you actually start looking at the numeracy side of things about climate change, then children are going to be sort of looking at that information and using their maths, and they're also going to be using lots of their literacy skills, justifying, debating, explaining, researching. So I think that literacy and numeracy, yes they're very important, but also I think we can use climate change as a vehicle in which to do those.

Hannah Lee Chalk:
Absolutely, and I just absolutely agree with what you've just said Sarah. I think that, you know, the skills that young people need to be able to go out there and flourish as adults, are absolutely about critical media skills, knowing to, you know, what is fact, what is an opinion, and having that capacity to judge and make their own decisions about what is worth understanding, and believing, and what is actually made up. And actually that's such an important skill for young people. And you can teach that through literacy, and people do that great, you know. It's something to be encouraged, but again it's turning the climate change concept into that literacy work.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Well we've heard from our panellists, now let's hear it from the source, our children.

Male child 1:
If we don't stop the things that we're doing, we're putting ourselves at risk.

Male child 2:
There's no way to stop it because people are disagreeing with each other.

Female child 1:
It's mostly caused by us, and we can make a difference.

Male child 3:
I don't think I know really that much about climate change.

Female child 2:
I don't think people know enough about climate change, and like especially kids because like adults think they're too young for it.

Female child 3:
I think I'd like to learn more about climate change.

Female child 4:
If we don't understand what's going on around us, then we can't understand how to fix it.

Female child 5:
Be saving lives.

Female child 6:
If I knew more, I could probably, when I'm older, help.

Female child 7:
We won't be able to learn about maths and English if we don't learn about the climate change, because that's going to affect the Earth, and then one day we won't be here to learn about maths and English.

Female child 8:
I know we can't always do it, but say if you could do it to help just a little bit.

Female child 9:
If we all work together to stop it, maybe one day we will.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Some passionate views there from two primary schools that we visited last week. So why do you think children and young people in particular are being so passionate about this at the moment Sarah?

Sarah Eames:
I think there's newspapers such as First News, which are aimed at children, there's Newsround, which they're watching, which reflects what's on the real television and the real news, and I think they are rightly getting sort of horrified by what's actually happening, and they're getting excited and passionate in wanting to do something, and they want their voice heard.

Hannah Lee Chalk:
Absolutely, and I mean the climate strikes with young people going out onto the streets, leaving the school and going out to make their voices heard is so, I mean they clearly care and it's a really impressive response, and actually I, I think that it demonstrates that it's a really important issue to them. They are, the young people today are the people who will have to deal with a lot of the future problems with climate change. And actually it's absolutely fair enough that they feel outraged that they're not having that kind of education or support in things getting better for the future. So you can see that there is passion and I think it's almost more impact that the young people are getting their voices out there than the adults, because actually it's, people are starting to listen.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Stepping away from the school strikes for a moment, let's consider what we are currently doing to teach our children about climate change, and where the potential problem lies. Sarah, is it difficult to talk about climate change in the primary classroom?

Sarah Eames:
I think as I said, I've got a headteacher that is very proactive with wanting us to learn about these things. I think sometimes people forget the power of assemblies, and 20 minutes, what you can actually get over and the information you can talk to children about in that limited time. Plus in the classroom you can do practical things as well. I know that we use the Practical Action resources, and they set up a problem that's based in a different country, that the children have to actually solve. So we're creating problem solvers at the same time as doing technology and learning about global issues.

Naomi Wilkinson:
That's great. Environmental conservation is a problem on a global scale, so Sarah do you think the scale of this is a difficult concept for younger children to get their heads around?

Sarah Eames:
I think because of the media, and there is so much in the media about things, it can become a little bit overwhelming for children, and they think, well what can we do? And that's where you have to, as a teacher, and as a family, bring it down to what you can actually do in your local issues. At the moment we're doing some lessons about climate detectives, where the children are looking about the clean air around our school and what they can do about trying to stop the parents from leaving their cars idling, and things like that. So them trying to make small changes to the behaviour of their parents, I think does mean that they'll have a lot to do.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Hannah, the work you do around this is outside of a classroom environment, how do you help children explore these sorts of global concepts?

Hannah Lee Chalk:
So one hand we have global collections, and from natural sciences across to cultural history and heritage, and it, they bring these problems to light, they almost kind of give you something tangible to hold and ground your thinking about these massive, humungous like global scale, but also the timescales are kind of so difficult to comprehend, it's just, you know, it's, it's massive amounts of time, backwards and forwards, and actually these physical things are a useful way of kind of anchoring that thinking and bringing it to life. So that's kind of our approach and we are lucky to have resources like that.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Yeah. And is it just the children that struggle with this? Leigh, do you think there's teacher understanding, do you think that's an issue as well?

Dr Leigh Hoath:
Yes I do. I think we expect a lot of our primary teachers, to be experts across a whole range of subjects, so to expect them to teach things as well that are not on the national curriculum, and bearing in mind that the national curriculum is a minimum entitlement, so it is okay to go beyond that, and, you know, good teachers do do that. I think to expect them to come in with the secure knowledge around that is also quite a big ask. So there's got to be things there about supporting the teachers in their subject development as well.

Naomi Wilkinson:
In key stage three, children are taught to explore human impact on their environment. What practical activities can we do in class that help children to get to grips with this? Maybe you can help us first Leigh?

Dr Leigh Hoath:
So you've already mentioned about how daunting the scale of this can be, cause it's so massive, and I think one of the things that children do is they look at things as the polar ice caps melting, and they don't see that it's them, and that there's an impact by them and for them, so I think doing things that make it really local to them so they can see that they are having an impact. So little things like really simple carbon footprint calculators so they can see what they are doing, and how that's contributing. And just having a look at what pledges they can make to make a difference to either climate change or use of plastics or whatever environmental issue it is, is really, really useful.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Sarah what sort of things have you done with your class?

Sarah Eames:
I think we've only got a few minutes, but I could talk for about probably half an hour just on that subject. There are some amazing resources out there. Our school has got over 100 children that are part of our eco club, but they're in different groups, and the Eco-Schools resources are really good. Surfers against Sewage, again, sort of like point you in the right direction of activities that you can do. As I said, sort of like the Practical Action things that we do in schools. There are lots and lots of resources out there for you to use.

Naomi Wilkinson:
And speaking as a leader in your school, aside from what you do in the classroom and what's in the curriculum, how can school leaders help to encourage children to learn about environmental protection on a wider scale?

Sarah Eames:
I think doing something which you know that they'll enjoy, and that you're passionate and excited about. I know our school did a project called Hashtag 500 Recycled Elephants, where the children actually made an elephant our of a milk carton, but then they went on to actually find out about endangered animals, and what we could do to actually help sort of like elephants and other animals that are endangered. So there's lots of lovely exciting projects that you can do from that, which is looking at recycling, but is actually looking at a global issue at the same time.

Dr Leigh Hoath:
I think certainly for teachers, to teach something, as I said, that's outside the curriculum in that tight sense, is quite a bold step. And so having senior leadership support is really, really important. So having the senior management team on board, and supporting those wider issues is really, really key as well.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Some might argue, what difference does talking about climate change in school actually make? Does this lead to a lasting behaviour at home and in the wider world? Hannah, what do you think?

Hannah Lee Chalk:
Well, so if you look at the current situation, I think we've all been told a lot about climate change, and yet it's still not a problem solved, or even nearly understood, and actually I think you can talk a lot about things, but actually there's a difference between being aware and understanding that something happens, and actually doing something about it. And I think that what's happened to date has not really worked, you know. I can tell you lots of facts and figures about climate change, but actually, you know, we're still in this ridiculous situation where the same bad things are happening. So I'd say there's got to be something different, a different way of working, and that, I think I'm going to keep returning to this point, but I think it is definitely about caring for your surroundings and caring for nature. So you know, you exploit what you value, and you defend what you love. And if that love is instilled in children from a young age, I think you're on to a winner.

Dr Leigh Hoath:
I think we are going beyond just talking about it though, because we were talking about it 35 years ago when I was in primary school. And I think, you know, what we're seeing now is children who are taking action and are beginning to see the importance of this, so I think we are actually getting into educating the children about this, and not just talking about it.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Well, we've had some questions that are coming in from our viewers, thank you very much. Sally Clay, for Sarah this is, asks, what resources or websites would you recommend for primary children?

Sarah Eames:
I think at the moment sort of like Eco-Schools would be a good one to go to first of all. I know if you sign up for the Primary Science Teaching Trust, they've actually got a conference coming up in June which, not only is it for teachers, but they've got a children's conference, where there's going to be 30 schools and where they're showing their things that they've done on climate change themselves, and there's a free booklet that, if you sign up you will get that booklet, which has got lots and lots of different ideas, and to choose something which you are excited about yourself, or that you can do locally.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Okay, and we've also got this one, for you Leigh, this is from Julie Brown, who asks, we're hearing that some schools are using the sustainable development goals as a way of teaching about the importance of climate change and other global issues. Is this something you do, and if so, do you think it helps children understand what action they can take to make a difference?

Dr Leigh Hoath:
Okay, it's not something that I do personally, but what I would say is that anything out there that incentivises engaging in things beyond the curriculum is worthwhile. I think it's really important. And certainly what we're trying to do in teacher education is widen that net so that the students that we're preparing are aware that there's these these other incentives out there and initiatives that can really help them become better educators for the children for the future.

Hannah Lee Chalk:
Can I just add, also I think one of the benefits of the sustainable development goals is that actually it flags up the kind of the life on land, life in the water, but it also brings up a lot of these kind of social justice issues around poverty, around education, and actually by joining these fundamental sort of areas to work towards, actually it does bring to light a lot of the interconnections between these different, apparently disparate themes around, yeah, poverty, education, climate change. It, it brings them all together, and actually can be quite a useful tool.

Dr Leigh Hoath:
I think that schools should definitely have a look at them, because they are quite simple headings, but they do show how everything is connected, and that actions that you sort of like take have their consequences and that's sort of like, I think is something that the children need to do, and I know that, sort of like I've said, about the Practical Action things that we use at school, their resources give that global theme to what children are doing, and actually help them try and solve those problems.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Okay Leigh, we've been working with you on our next ����ý Teach Live Lesson, it's in partnership with Blue Planet Live, it's going to be on the 26th of March at two o'clock. We'll be learning about the impact humans have on marine life, as well as celebrating the work already being done in schools to tackle plastic pollution. We'll also be going live to Steve Backshall in the Bahamas to answer your students' question, so send them to us by Thursday the 21st of March, to live.lessons@bbc.co.uk. ����ý 1's Blue Planet has shown us the impact of human activity on our oceans, and a survey has found that one in five people immediately switched to using reusable shopping bags after watching the programs. So Hannah, as someone who works around natural history collections, how do you think programmes like Blue Planet can help and be used to educate children?

Hannah Lee Chalk:
It's absolutely about what I was just saying, about people caring for and appreciating and loving nature, and actually feeling utterly outraged about the impact that we're having, really a long way away from where we're stood now, and actually it's getting that kind of passion and, and positive productive outrage about things, and doing something about it, and it's, that's exactly what we need for these young children, to sort of have that real sense of injustice, and fight for something they believe in.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Well every Live Lesson comes with a downloadable teacher guide, and the resources for our Blue Planet Live Lesson are available now. Leigh, how do you think teachers can best prepare for this Live Lesson, and what prior knowledge would you think that they need before having to take part?

Dr Leigh Hoath:
Okay, the lesson is absolutely crammed with activities and engaging things for the children to do in terms of developing their understanding. Prior knowledge isn't essential, but what I would say is sort of setting up the context of the lesson would be really, really helpful. So showing an image such as the seahorse wrapped around the cotton bud, that we saw last year. And going to the ����ý Teach website and looking, there's five videos there that have got resources for starting to talk about Blue Planet, and impact on five different aspects of the ocean would be a great start for any teacher.

Naomi Wilkinson:
So just get your classes thinking about it and watching some of those videos.

Dr Leigh Hoath:
Yeah, there's some specific things and there's also some big questions to put to the children, to get them thinking really about the big pictures.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Okay. Children who are going to be watching this Live Lesson will be getting some amazing access to real experts, like Steve in the Bahamas. Sarah, how do you think access like this can help to inspire children?

Sarah Eames:
I think children love Steve Backshall. They love listening to any expert that is passionate and excited about what they're talking about. So they learn a lot about what's actually going on. But also they want to help him as well. So I think it will make children sort of like really want to do something to change what is going on.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Yeah, he is very passionate. We've got some more comments that have come in from Facebook. At our junior school we recently had a whole school event where all the pupils focused on the effects of plastics on our ocean. We're a seaside town and the children care about helping to rectify the problem. That's from Kate Sutton. I don't know if you'd like to comment on that.

Dr Leigh Hoath:
Yeah, I think it's fantastic. And this goes back to what I said earlier, where there are pockets of excellence happening. What we need is that more joined up way of working.

Sarah Eames:
And also using their local context as well, of going out onto the beach and probably looking for the little plastic beads and everything. I think that makes the children realise what's actually happening.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Yeah, on their doorstep. The new Welsh curriculum has four purposes, one of them is that children are ethical and informed, and environmental awareness is an aspect, says James Jones, and we'd like to ask the panel, what can the rest of the country learn?

Sarah Eames:
They can, they can learn by that and actually put it in the national curriculum.

Hannah Lee Chalk:
Absolutely.

Sarah Eames:
I think, as you said, sort of like it is a minimum curriculum, but the fact that they've actually got it, it's there, that it's statutory, would mean that a lot more schools would cover it and do it.

Dr Leigh Hoath:
Yeah, certainly it's something that we've talked about before, in that, the other countries, Scotland and Wales certainly do have greater opportunities within the curriculum, which then encourages teachers to engage with it, to teach about recycling, about waste, about energy. Those things are there in a sort of more blatant form.

Naomi Wilkinson:
So we have spoken a lot today about how we can help teach children about climate change and environmental protection in the classroom. If you're not a subject specialist though, where else can teachers find help and support with this? Perhaps Leigh we could come to you first.

Dr Leigh Hoath:
I think it's about using the resources that are available to you. So certainly sort of the networks, we've heard about the charities that Sarah mentioned earlier on. There's wider associations that can help. It's about trying to make sue of all of the information that's there, and particularly that charity push to really help to support schools. And so Practical Action is one of the key ones.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Sarah, any advice from you?

Sarah Eames:
And I would say, I mean a couple of years ago, if somebody said to me I was getting a lot of ideas from Twitter, I'd have sort of like said that I wouldn't have, but actually sort of like looking at a picture and looking at a link to resources, keeps you up to date with what's happening, and there are some fantastic resources out there. So I would say follow a few people on Twitter that you know will post you in the right direction.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Hannah, have you got an additional advice for teacher?

Hannah Lee Chalk:
Museums obviously. [LAUGHS]

Naomi Wilkinson:
Obviously.

Hannah Lee Chalk:
Everyone has a local museum. Make use of them. They're great places to explore exciting things and get that wonder and excitement and passion about nature. And also, don't panic, you know, just because you're not a subject specialist doesn't mean that you can't cover climate change in all different areas of the curriculum. Be creative, have courage, and just go for it.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Well that's great advice. Thank you very much. And teachers, we have some great resources available on ����ý Teach to support you, tying into the science and geography curriculum at key stage two. Our Blue Planet Live Lesson is also supported by free teaching resources from Twinkle. You'll find a link to these on our website now. Throughout our panel discussion, you have been sending in more of your questions and comments for our panel, so let's pose a few more of those. We've got a comment here from Hannah Boyden. She says, the children do take the messages home from school and start to ask questions at home and in their local community. Positive pester power. What do the panel think about that?

Sarah Eames:
We were talking about that earlier on. We were saying how to educate sort of like the generation that might have missed out on some of these things, is to actually talk to their children, and sort of like the children are then going home and sort of like sending those messages, yeah. Great.

Naomi Wilkinson:
Thank you so much for all your advice, your fantastic answers, and thank you so much for everyone who's been watching today and getting in touch with us live. Remember to join me and some very special guests in the Blue Planet Live Lesson, Tuesday the 26th of March, it's all available live at 2pm on so hopefully we'll see you there.