大象传媒

BLAIR - OBAMA - LET'S CALL THE WHOLE THING OFF

Is Vacuous Rhetoric the inexorable handmaiden to Charisma? I take in the Obama performance (as he 'takes in' his audience) and find myself transported (more in the Australian sense than the Heavenly one) back to the Dark-Age of Blair. It seems to me that Jaded Jean's figures for national IQs need multiplying by a 'Charisma Factor' - always less than one - when pudding-heads are in thrall to 'leaders'; leaders who have that undefined, undeserved faculty of charisma. The few who know a naked emperor when they see one, must now watch as 'Diana Syndrome' sweeps over the world, in the guise of Magic-Obama's glittering cloak. This Rentagod (middle-of-the-road physiology, and tallish, with resonant boom) has no need to declare himself divine - he just IS. But a man who chose Law, with a lawyer wife; who had a fractured upbringing - going on to rule the world? Hello! He says he will not just save America - he will save the world. Oh no - Tony all over again!

OBAMA SPEECH

Any chance of a transcript Newsnight? I used to analyse Blair's rambling, convoluted, Freudian non-sequiturial prose. It spoke volumes never intended by Mr Wonderful.

Does the Mosely case really change anything in terms of investigative journalism? I suppose its all turned out a bit like the Producers - a film I know many of your posters must love and cherish as I do. Oversold.

I look forward to the Plett piece as that sounds important. Are they still synchronised with al Qaeda or are they a separate force now.

On Glasgow East it seems as if Michael Crick is going somewhere with his digging on the outgoing MP.

Re #3 thegangofone

"The Producers" - One of the funniest films ever. Even my teenaged kids found it funny in this century. Like most of the best comedy, the more you watch it, the more the underlying truths are apparent.

Re Glasgow East, too little to late, I'm afraid, but Scottish Labour MPs are an aging lot and some of them are "on the sick". As I said on the "Wednesday, 23 July, 2008" last night, a bit of summer planning by an intern would have the material ready when the by-election season starts again in the autumn.

if israel is to attack iran will it do it as the first thing in an obama presidency which would poison it or will they have to do it the fag end of bush.

which sort of narrow down the timing of any strike. It would have be a friday after the oil markets close and before obama takes over [presumably] which limits it to the next 20 weekends.

perhaps one warning sign might be a build up of oil stocks as we can expect things to get a bit tight energy wise. not that the uk govt will do anything to insulate the uk from wild price swings with anything as sensible as having 90-120 days energy storage.

the gas price has sunk but have we stored gas at this lower price for the winter? of course not. the europeans have.

Barrie #1

Oh so accurate and oh so well stated.

Not so long ago I was convinced America was heading for another Republican president. Not being ready for either a woman or a black just yet. But now there seems to be a choice becoming available. They can have either the man who thought it was wrong to have pulled out of Viet-Nam or the man who is prepared to use any means (that's ANY means) to bring 'peace' to the middle east.

It's worse than His Blairness over again - this man will have POWER!

'EVERYTHING IN MY POWER'

When Power-Hungry Barack said those words - to descend to cliche - it brought a whole new range of meanings to: 'chill out' -from spinal shudder to nuclear winter. Then there came his gracious gift of an undivided Jerusalem to Israel (and NO, he did not miss-speak - it was Revelation).
It would seem that we need an even HIGHER International Court, where leaders, both aspiring and actual, past and present, can be held to account for: 'Conduct likely to bring about a breach of the peace' (where 'peace' is an approximation). There is going to be a hell of a long queue.

2nd HOMES AND THE CAUSES OF 2nd HOMES

Instead of examining the relative catalogue-prices of deckchairs for second homes, might it be more fruitful (in combination with the move to SPOIL PARTY GAMES, of course) if we look at the Titanic nonsense of transporting and housing political cipher card-vote-digits, for theatrical appearances, at the Palace of Wallyminster?
Anyone who has sampled management of business or social activity, knows that meetings play to idiots, poseurs and egos, while wasting a vast amount of time. Electronic communication, across the spectrum, must be able to eliminate the 2nd home nonsense, if applied with a will and some intelligence. Doh!

We can do a short piece with voters and a live with Michael Crick.

No white suit for Glasgow then ?

#5 "if israel is to attack iran will it do it as the first thing in an obama presidency which would poison it or will they have to do it the fag end of bush."

Why do people claim that Obama is somehow anti-Israeli? Everything the guy has said is as pro-Israeli as its possible to be, short of converting to judaism and working on a kibbutz.

If anything Israel recieved more practical help from Clinton than from Bush.

#6. At least McCain fought (and was captured) in Vietnam. He knows what he's talking about and therefore I listen to his opinion, not snear at it. There were 1 million+ Vietnamese sent to 're-education camps' in the jungle, 2 million plus 'boat people' and countless thousands of innocent vietnamese murdered by the communists would also agree that the US shouldn't have withdrawn from S.Vietnam too.

INS AND OUTS TO THE MAX

Can any one enlighten me as to why internal abuse of a male body, by a male, is now virtually sanctified, while external abuse of a male body by a bunch of females is, apparently, some sort of Devilry?
Are not both long associated with the higher echelons of Britishness?

As prostitution is illegal why was no one arrested and charged?

Or is that just for poor people and the Kings Cross girls?

I do so love it when Obama rides his unicorn over the rainbow. If he does get elected Prezzy, he will do as he is told by the Committee of 300, just like all the other Prezzys.

CONNECTIONS

Speaking of connections, does everyone else see a similar demographic trend in London and New York City? Is this a hegemonic issue that we should be concerned about?

/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2008/07/wednesday_23_july_2008.html

/blogs/newsnight/2007/09/wednesday_19_september_2007.html



Incidentally, are the folk at Microsoft having a laugh with webding and wingding fonts and NYC?

NOT QUITE THE BIBLE CODE JJ

I tried a few other hot words - back to the drawing board. 'Vatican' starts well, then fades.

PM are advertising a 拢20000 prize for clever ideas connected to information. You could suggest 'Bonkwatch' a map showing differential rate of procreation across the world with a counter showing drop in over-all IQ. That should go down a storm.

ON LOVE, HONOUR AND .. OBEDIENCE

Barrie (#15) Like so much else, it's already been done (recently), but is missed by many (as is so much of this work alas):



More regionally, one just has to bear in mind the very high negative (-0.73) correlation between TFR and IQ, plus measures of IQ by country (see Lynn and Vanhannen), or proxy measures (SATs) by Local Authority here (states etc in USA).

It's not good news alas. A realtime counter would be amusing, and something to remind workaholic, free and independent bright females about their biological-clocks and that very unfashionable concept....duty.

Kirtsy help me, if I hear Obama right saying the walls between Christian, Jews and Muslims must come tearing down - meaning recently built Israel wall.
I'll believe when I see the elephant fly!

Kirtsy help me, if I hear Obama right saying the walls between Christian, Jews and Muslims must come tearing down - meaning recently built Israel wall. It must be my old hearing aid playing about.
I'll believe when I see the elephant fly!

WELL AH DONE SIN ABOUT EV'RYTHIN, WHEN AH SEEN AN ELEPHANT FLY!

Heartfelt thanks Referringto, you raised a smile with that reference! I think 'Rentagod Obama' was referring to Jericho actually. His rhetoric is on such a high plane, it has little meaning in earthbound 2008. Tomorrow: the lion shall lie down with the lamb and by Monday: descent of the New Jerusalem.
I don't think the poor old Amalekites are in with much of a chance. As for the war on Terror: when that is won we will fight Greed, Lust, Sloth, Gluttony, Pride, Envy and Wrath. That should keep the arms trade busy until the War on Stupidity.

BAD ASTEROID DAYS

Thanks for link Jaded Jean. I loved the term 'bad asteroid days' as a way of bucking the trend. We must look to the skies . . .
Your final point says, quietly, so much more than all of the Obama booming rhetoric.

barriesingleton #1

The frightening thing is that in six months, Mickey Mouse may have his finger on the button that launches 10,000 hydrogen bombs. Heaven help us.

bookhimdano #5

The talk I hear is to expect Israel to attack sometime after the election but before the innauguration, especially if Obama wins. The other talk is that it was Israel that stilled Bush's hands from attacking Iran already. They say they know when and how. Yeah right, just like Lebanon. Just talk though.

12. At 6:28pm on 24 Jul 2008, stool-pigeon wrote:

As prostitution is illegal why was no one arrested and charged?

Or is that just for poor people and the Kings Cross girls?


Prostitution ISN'T illegal. Soliciting (advertising) is, pimping (living off the proceeds of prostitutes) is, as is running a brothel with more than 1 girl working in it. What Mosley (and his 5 partners did) was not against the law.... neither SHOULD it be against the law. Frankly with the streets full of knife carrying hoodies the police have far better things to do than worry about Mosley getting a spanking!

Peter_Sym #10

Spare a thought for the countless thousands of innocent North Vietnamese murdered by Western backed troops. Some possibly by McCain.

#23. Some PROBABLY by McCain.. he was a pilot and dropped bombs. However your use of the word 'murder' rather suggests I'm wasting my time arguing with you. Murder was what was done by the VC to S.Vietnamese minor officials during Tet. N.Vietnamese civillians getting hit by stray bombs are tragic accidents.

The point is that the partition of Vietnam was approved by the UN and South Vietnam (to coin a phrase used by so many on these pages to oppose Iraq/Afghanistan) was a 'sovereign nation' and had every right to ask the US to defend it from a pretty brutal terror campaign waged by the North.

When the US pulled out millions of South Vietnamese who were just as innocent as your Northern "murder" victims suffered terribly. I agree 100% with McCain. The US should have studied Britains war in Malaya harder, fought their war harder and quicker and won it. It would have been better for the Vietnamese and much better for the US.

Peter_Sym #24

The murders I was referring to were those of the villagers murdered while their homes were burnt on the grounds that there might have been a VC in the area. And those 'stray' bombs in NV were deliberately directed at civilian villages for the same reasons.

That war was unwinnable for the US, you can't play chess against an opponent who is playing draughts.

It was not N v. S but US v. USSR. I seem to remember making this argument in Grosvenor Square all those years ago.

Peter_Sym (#24) The NYC based UN was, at the end of WWII, coextensive with the allied powers. As the Cold War progressed it was inevitable that it would be used by the USA to spread free-market liberal-democracy/anarchism to countries likely to come under Sino-Soviet 'Commanding Heights' influence. It's still happening today, despite the rhetoric of the end of the Cold War - Newsnight provide us with frequnt refreshment as to who the axis of evil comprises: Zimbabwe and other African countries, S America (e.g. Venezuela) the Middle East (Iraq/Iran), N Korea, and the band of CIS countries which, like Iran, is supported by the Shanghai Group.

So, leaving aside rhetoric, given how things turned out in Vietnam, what exactly was the USA's conribution to peace and how is the USA/EU helping (rather than preying upon) Africa (or anywhere else) today? It seems to me that whilst our populations degenerate, China's 'socialist' population goes from strength to strength whilst Russia's 'liberated population atrophies.

Hasn't NewFazer got a valid point?

Barack Obama is a huge false dawn just like the deeply dishonest Tony 'WMD dossier' Blair was. Obama is backed by Pharma' and climate change Co's. Americans face huge destruction to their economic livelihoods as $Billions will be pumped into the global fraud about CO2 reduction.

Although I don't like the guy I'd vote for Max Mosely ahead of Obama. His private life is his own. The News of the World might have had a case for 'exposing' his kinky night in but totally crossed the line of integrity by deliberately trying to smeer Mr Max and dishonestly doctoring the video to fabricate a Nazi theme.

The 大象传媒 coverage was bias. It rolled a a number of cronies avoiding this dishonesty and defending 'Press Freedom'. Gutter journalism more like! The N-o-t-W got exactly what they deserved.

#25. The Vietnam war was totally winnable for the US. The basic scenario was little different from that faced by the British in Malaya with the added complication of North Vietnam providing a safe base for the VC.

To win the US needed to win the hearts and minds of the South with should have been done by supporting a less corrupt S.Vietnamese government and improving the living standards of the South, and therefore marginalising the VC. We did this succesfuly in Malaya.

This needs to be coupled with hard jungle fighting, not hiding in fire bases (again as we did in Malaya) and using well trained infantry to actually bayonet the enemy rather than hope to hit him from 40,000 feet with B52s.

Once North Vietnamese regular troops entered the war, the US should have invaded the North not tried to fight them with both hands tied behind their back.

ideally they should never have entered the war, but once they had they should have won it. The withdrawl Nixon carried out was the worst possible outcome.

"It was not N v. S but US v. USSR. I seem to remember making this argument in Grosvenor Square all those years ago."

Funny it was the US embassy you protested outside, not the USSR's. I know what the Russians did to similar protests in Praque, Hungary etc. but that doesn't seem to bother 'liberals' as much as the USA bombing vietnamese......

TOO MANY DEGREES OF FREEDOM

Peter_Sym (#29). The Warsaw Pact countries (just like N Vietnam) used to practice Democratic Centralism, not Liberal-Democratic Anarchism (see article 3 of the PRC constitution for a reminder of how that works). Villagers elect their representatives and they in turn elect their leaders. Needs flow upwards and then it's the duty of the people to abide by the decisions of their planners. It's a different system, one can't judge it by our lights.

Despite the assertions of neoconservatives and others, liberal-democracy demonstrably doesn't serve people very well, it brings anarchy. See Iraq and Russia in the 1990s.

"During a press conference [in 2006] at the G8 summit in Russia, President Bush told President Vladimir Putin that Americans want Russia to develop a free press and free religion 鈥渓ike Iraq.鈥� To laughter and applause, Putin responded: 鈥淲e certainly would not want to have same kind of democracy as they have in Iraq, quite honestly.鈥�



Apart from the 'liberation' of Iraq, one can read 'Godfather of the Kremlin' by Klebnikov to see why Putin said that, or just look at what's being done to the UK Public Services to appreciate that Blair's attack on 'elitism' and deference was just more of the same anarchistic (good for asset-strippers) sugar-coated programme of nihilism championed by Thatcher/Regan.

Peter_Sym 28

It really doesn鈥檛 help to say 鈥渋f only鈥�, the facts remain, the US could not / did not adopt close quarters tactics against the VC 鈥� so they lost. The regime in South Vietnam WAS corrupt, so they lost. The was as history has shown was unwinnable for the US. Or are you suggesting that first they should have deposed the incumbents and installed an American led government? Sounds like World Police to me.

Cold steel eh? They don't like it up 'em! Dark ages stuff, US troops didn't/don't have the mindset for it.

I am not mistaken, remember I began by saying US was playing chess and the VC were playing draughts. It really WAS unwinnable on those grounds alone.

Am I to assume that you supported Tony Blair's decision to make war on Iraq? And will you similarly cheer when Iran is attacked?

#29

The answer to the riddle of why I was in Grosvenor Square rather than Prague is that I am English and happened to live here rather than there. In the earlier post JJ #30 has clearly highlighted your misunderstanding of 鈥榙emocratic鈥�. Do read the China links provided earlier.

#30. I can damn well judge it by our standards when they start machine gunning those who disagree (Prague, Hungary, Gdansk, Tianemmen square). That sort of pathetic excuse justfies nazism: "who are we to say that gassing jews is wrong...."

The actions carried out by the VC in Hue during the tet offensive were cold blooded murder. Whether you're communist, liberal or fascist tying civillians hands behind their back, shooting them in the head and dumping them in a ditch is wrong.

INTENSIONAL FOG

Peter_Sym (#32) Whilst dropping hundreds of thousands of tons of HE/napalm from 40,000 feet on N Vietnamese and Cambodians wasn't wrong?

Thank goodness for NKVD liberators of the Eastern camps and the communist camp inmates fleeing them along with the Germans (although the latter were remiss leaving piles of clothes and glasses behind as incriminating evidence don't you think?). Without the NKVD and those fleeing, articulate 'first-hand' witnesses how would we ever have ever found out about those horrors (or about Katyn) or be so sure of the superiority of our democratic freedoms that we have no qualms about aggressively exporting them to Iraq and anywhere else at risk of coming under the cruel yoke of a 'Nazi' Command Economy?

Pity about Old Labour too eh?

#33. This sort of argument REALLY annoys me: it basically boils down to 'because the US did X in the past that was wrong we should forgive whatever genocidal maniac in the subject of the debate'

No, napalming civillians is not right. Its also not a very good way of winning the war as it certainly doesn't win hearts and minds. HOWEVER most of the civillians in the path of the napalm were being bombed because the VC used their villages to hide supplies and fighters in... either with or without the consent of the peasants. This is in direct contravention of the geneva convention for precisely this reason. Because the US fought that war incredibly badly doesn't turn the VC and NVA into saints.

In every single one of my previous posts on this subject I've said the US should have fought Vietnam like we fought Malaya... and that means getting top notch infantry in the jungle fighting the enemy. NOT dropping explosive randomly from 40,000 feet.

Neither am I getting into a debate about your rather pathetic holocaust denial theories either. The evidence was somewhat stronger than piles of glasses.... start with the eye witness testimony of British POWs (SOE, commandos and repeat escapers) who were sent to concentration camps in the east. Frankly I don't care whether 3, 4 or 6 million Jews went to the ovens. Too many did.

BELIEF AND POLITICS

Peter_Sym (#34) We all believe what we believe to be true, and some of us react emotionally if what we believe to be true is questioned, but the point I have been making is not so much about what is true, but to prompt you (and others) to ask to whose BENEFIT what is said to be true has been said (and still is being said) to be true.

At the time I was in Grosvenor Square chucking flour bombs (my, how things have changed) I truly believed that 'freedom' was everything and that we should all strive to shake off the oppression of our fathers.

When I became a parent myself, my perspective changed slightly and I realised that allowing children to run around with no guidance at all from experienced elders simply would not work.

We see the result of this freedom today with shocking anti-social behaviour on the streets and rising crime rates (despite official claims that they are falling). Blanket, total freedom is anarchy and any government with any degree of responsibility towards its people would not allow that to happen.

Maybe JJ has something when describing the Chinese model.

#36. If we'd had the chinese model in 1970 when you flour bombed the US embassy you wouldn't have lived long enough to have kids.

Our current system isn't perfect by a long way but our parliamentary democracy doesn't require concentration/death/reducation/labour camps to function.

Equally you may have heard of the Triads... China isn't crime free by any stretch of the imagination.

Regarding Jaded Jean. I basically agree with 'who benefits' but I fail to see how it applies to your holocaust theory.... we'd been bombed silly for 6 years by Hitler and Russian had lost 30 million people. We didn't need to make the nazi's look anyworse than they were and neither did Stalin. Frankly with the red army sitting in all of Eastern Europe Stalin could do whatever the hell he liked. He didn't need to justify it because no-one could stop him.

Oh Peter - you are still using the word 'if'. The fact is I wasn't in China, so here I am to irritate you by casting doubt on you view of things.

The triads were/are the Chinese criminal underground organisations, chiefly active in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan - the 'democratised' areas of Chinese influence. Although their main arena these days is in western cities where the Chinese have large populations. Mainland China won't put up with them.

Or current system isn't even slightly perfect, it is in terminal decline and will quite soon, come to a sticky end unless we abandon this foolish notion of 'freedom'. Look around you to see where it has led (and who gains). Look a little further to see the cause and what is waiting in the wings to replace it. Now you know how the romans felt. Ask yourself which is more important, the individual or the society?

To say that Britain had been bombed silly for 6 years is erroneous. The blitz began on 7th September 1940 and continued until 10 May 1941 - that's a little less than 8 months. There were small scale bombings following but nothing near that level. I believe the total British deaths in the homeland by bombing was 51,509. V weapons later accounted for another 8,938 deaths in London and the south east. Now consider Dresden and Berlin, or the actions of our 'allies' concerning Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

FAILING TO SEE OR FAILING TO LOOK?

Peter_Sym (#34) "I basically agree with 'who benefits' but I fail to see how it applies to your holocaust theory".

Try looking up Abu Mazen's PhD (and where he did it, and under whom). Also look for his book based on the thesis. Look up what the Oslo Accords proscribe in this context and ask why so many people who ask questions in print end up in prison in our 'free-world'. Then consider what the ex PM of Malaysia had to say in his 2003 speech at the Tenth Islamic Summit Conference Putrajaya, Malaysia on October 16, 2003 (a web version has been provided and kindly highlighted by the ADL).

Perhaps there's more to this 'freedom and dignity' business than meets the eye?

This isn't too bad either:

A pHd thesis from an Islamic radical and a speech from a semi-dictator of a country that prosecutes its citizens if they visit Israel...... Gee I wonder how fair and balanced these sources are. Why not direct me to Mein Kampf and the protocols of the elders of zion?

#38. My great-uncle bombed Dresden and on his return saw over 2 dozen V2's taking off. Thats in his fliht log which is in the RAF museum in Hendon. The Germans were doing everything they could to hit our civillians. We were better at hitting theirs.

Dresden contained over 100 military factories, 30,000 troops and was the major railhead supporting german ops on the Eastern front. It got what it deserved. If the Germans didn't like it they shouldn't have started the tactic with Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam or Coventry.

I doubt if our Russian allies who requested the raid and who had suffered far worse in Leningrad and Stalingrad cared much either.

The germans sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

Peter_Sym #41

"The Germans were doing everything they could to hit our civillians. We were better at hitting theirs."

So that makes it alright then?

I do admire your patriotism, "My country, right or wrong!" I too loved my England - trouble is it no longer exists and what is left of it is swiftly going down the pan. If you truly love old England, take a long cool look at who is doing what to it and why, and maybe re-examine a few things. Don't just accept things at face value. (It took me a long while to learn that one.) F'rinstance, it was Britain which declared war on Germany (which didn't please then much as they wanted us as an ally) and Poland, who we went off to 'save', was who's homeland?

PS. The words of Roy Akehurst, an RAF wireless operator sums up Dresden for me... "It struck me at the time, the thought of the women and children down there. We seemed to fly for hours over a sheet of fire - a terrific red glow with thin haze over it. I found myself making comments to the crew: "Oh God, those poor people." It was completely uncalled for. You can't justify it"

#42. yes it does make it alright. Hitler declared 'total war'.. he got it. My maternal grandfather (as opposed to my paternal one who was liberating Belsen at the time) had 9 brothers. 7 of them died at sea to U-boats. They were civillians.

In dresden where the factories making gun sights and periscopes (Karl Zeiss optics), aircraft engines and artillery fuses. All those products were built by the civillians who burnt that night. In addition Dresden was slowing Stalin from reaching Berlin and while Hitler lived Brits died.

Frankly you might think we should have fought WW2 with one hand tied behind our back, but very few people in 1945 thought that. Its very easy to pass smug judgements in 2008... rather more difficult in 1945.

Incidentally I presume the jibe about Poland is some sort of immigrant complaint? At least the Poles come here and work. Britain is going down the toilet because too many Brits expect to be supported by the state. We pay 660bn a year in taxes and pay out 170bn in benefits. THAT is why we don't have the cash for clean hospitals etc.

Your spartacus link is a joke. Claims by a Guardian journalist that his father said there were no aiming points is nonsense. To get a firestorm you drop all the incidenaries in a concentrated area. My great uncle dropped his flares as close to the Zeiz optics works as he could. Everyone else dropped on the flares/

read


for facts, not 2nd hand opinion.

Equally the claim that it had no AA guns is about as accurate as the frequently claimed one that it only contained china factories. The RAF lost 40 planes attacking Dresden that night.

Peter_Sym

You are a very angry man aren't you? Especially when someone questions your dearly held beliefs. Thats' the trouble, you say what you 'believe' instead of looking to see what IS. Hence my mention of Poland was to intended make you go and look but instead you said what you believed and missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with immigration although that is another story.

I think WW2 shouldn't have been fought at all, bug then I am just anti-war and the politicians of the time had axes to grind. Or at least those behind rthe politicians of the time.

RAF records? Remember that history is written by the victors. You've already got so many facts wrong in this exchange you might review your sources.

Peter_Sym

Now that you've raised the subject of the liberation of Belsen I would be genuinely interested to hear the story your grandfather brought back an d what was his take on the situation he found there.

On the contrary I say 'believe' very carefully. I state facts when they are facts and opinions as opinions. My main source was my great uncle's log which was written at the time. RAF navigators are not encouraged to make up stories in their logs. If he stated that he aimed for the zeiss optic works then that was were he believed (note the word) his flares were falling. Given the conditions he could have missed by 5 miles. I don't know.

I'd like to know what facts I've got wrong too. Everything I've quoted is historical record or family history (and therefore unverifiable to you one way or the other)

However I also agree WW2 should not have been fought. We should have treated Germany with more respect in 1918 and failing that we should have kicked Hitlers ass the second he sent troops into the Rhineland. I think we could have contained him then. Once he got away with that he was virtually unstoppable and rapidly developed better weapons and tactics than we had.

Regarding Belsen there's not too much to tell. My grandad told me once when he had a skin full. I haven't asked again because it not nice as a 15 year old watching an old man cry. (Hence my anger at Jaded Jeans comments about faked evidence)

It was actually one of the satellite camps they found not the main one. He also admitted that they shot the female guards and bayonetted the male ones (1940's attitudes to women I presume) after they surrended. Doubtless he'll now get abused as a war criminal along with his bomb aimer brother but personally I have no problem with this. It was natural justice.

You shouldn't need to ask what a 21 year old's 'take' on being able to smell bodies from 3 miles away was... it was the same 'take' any human would have.

Because of Hiroshima he wasn't sent to invade Japan and instead had a few unpleasant years in Sudan then Palestine where he ended up injured in the King David Hotel bombing. Ironic or what?

NOT THINKING ABOUT IT

Peter_Sym (#43) I suspect NewFazer may have been referring to (at the time) the largest population of Jews in Europe. You will appreciate, I'm sure, that Hitler (along with the Axis Powers) had declared total war on Jewish Trotskyism/Bolshevism/Capitalism (i.e. the Communist International or Comintern which I suggest is pretty much like the Socialist International today) whilst making a pact with 'Socialist in One Country' (i.e National Socialist) USSR. They invited the USSR to join the Axis (which effectively did until June 1941 - which still puzzles some historians). You'll also know that Britain didn't declare war on the USSR as it moved into Poland from the East as Germany did from the West, and that the USA waited until December 1941 to enter the war (after which Britain lost its empire and much else besides in exchange for financial 'support' from the USA). Old 'Nazi' Labour and it's Clause Four Pubic Services didn't stand much of a chance did it? Seeing what I'm saying here is separate from whether you like it or agree with it.

Recently, a new Axis of Evil was made out to be Islamic Fundamentalism supported by other tyrants (Russia and China), but once this was seen to be yet another US Trotskyite-Neoconservative ruse to peddle the free-market interests of Israeli and NY high finance (see the Credit Crunch and predatory Sub-Prime debacle), the 'war on terror' suddenly ran out of steam.

As NewFazer said, perhaps we should all look a little further than the obvious and ask how a scattered group of 14 million (only 0.5% of UK, but the dominant White group in NYC) exerts so much power (could it be by weakening its opposition through immigration and other political forces?) whilst alienating so many throughout history. This is all legitimately (legally, but who shapes the Human Rights laws etc?) and democratically done of course, it's just that some don't think it's cricket.

An analogy: say someone said "Manchester United is a really canny team, that's why they keep winning" and someone replied, that's outrageous "You're just anti-Mancunian", you might rightly think that the respondent was either linguistically challenged or a little thought-disordered.

Read the Malaysian PM's 2003 speech carefully and with an open mind.



He was trying to help his people just as Abbas is trying to help his. Muslims are growing in numbers whilst Europeans are rapidly dwindling through below replacement level TFRs (which comes from a love of freedom/hedonism above duty - see Article 25 of the PRC constitution vs the EU Charter of Human Rights Article 3.2:




There are demographic facts here which have certain projectible consequences for democracy whether one thinks about it or likes it or not. See what ETS said about the US population a year last Feb.

INTENSIONAL OPACITY

Peter_Sym (#48) The deaths in Belsen were the consequence of typus, which very probably was due to the disruption of supply lines as a result of the efficiacy of allied bombing throughout Germany. That allied Western camp libertors saw some of the consequences of what their airforce comrades did but didn't make the right connections is just a a sad reflection of how bad we all are at making connections.

Actually I totally missed the point about the Jews in Poland. Then again I'm not obsessed with 'zionists under the bed' so its not my first thought.

As to how do so many Jews have power: simple. In the middle ages we banned them from carrying out any trade under pain of death expect money lending. As a result most jews became money lenders and bankers. If you control a bank you control nations. perhaps if we hadn't had 1000 years of Pogroms the Jews might not feel so alienated?

Jews are powerful and influential because they're clever and hardworking... and that makes them easy scapegoats for those who want to blame their own failures on others.

GROUP COMPETITIVE STRATEGIES

Peter_Sym (#51) The problem with that is that the British Chinese comprise the same proportion of the UK population but don't comprise anywhere near the proportion of peers in the House of Lords, or in the media or in other influential positions despite their coming top of the league tables in SATs. In addition, Jewish IQ advantage is essentially in verbal IQ, which is universally a feminine skill (which tends to be at the expense of spatial ability - hence spin etc). Over recent times our education system has been progressively feminised. Do you see the consequences? Jews tend to be more prone to CYP21 (c6p21) polymorphisms too, which in the non-classic (NCAH) case sub-clinically feminises males and androgenises females. See also their extreme stress reactions/high neuroticism and other mental health issues (the high proportion of Jews in psychology and psychiatry).

Once again, look to Human Rights/Equalities legislation and political correctness in C20th liberal-democracies, AND the critically low birth-rates and especially, the blight of dysgenic/differential fertility.

None of this equality talk is tolerated in Orthodox Judaism (or Islam). For many of the most vociferous feminists, one should look to secular Jews, for the demographic impact, look to secular non-Jews (and the erosion of family values, the church and much else besides).

Whether it is 'intentional' or not is far less important I submit, than whether such a differential trend demographically is the case.

PROTOCOLS AND COVENANTS

Peter_Sym "Gee I wonder how fair and balanced these sources are. Why not direct me to Mein Kampf and the protocols of the elders of zion?"

OK. As you mentioned The Protocols of The Elders of Zion and as the credibility of the Oslo Accords rests upon contentious changes to the articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny the state of Israel the right to exist, and as regional (if not world) peace allegedly appears to be critically related to how Iran, Syria and Lebanon are disposed to the 'Zionist Entity, it seems to me that these Zionists were not so much 'under the beds' as running amok in AIPAC and similar fund-raising bodies in the UK hysterically urging everyone else that they must wage a 'war on terror' (and especially against Muslims). Not long ago the esteemed Mr Dershowitz threatened to bankrupt our universities if they boycotted Israeli academics. UK academics gave up after they were warned they might be charged with being racist! So, not 'under the beds', but all over the shop - e.g. 'Friends of Israel', 'Scottish Friends of Israel', fund-raisers for New Labour etc etc. We don't hear much about 'Friends of Bangladesh' or 'Friends of Pakistan' do we? Is it because those countres aren't in the European Song Contest?

These make for 'amusing' reading:



For fainess and balance - see Article 22 especially:

#53. Our universities didn't threaten to boycott Israeli academics- one teaching union demanded it and their argument was the most right-on left wing crap I'd ever seen. On one page of the magazine was a list of 'war crimes' commited by Israel and on the next page why we have closer academic ties with China. Apparently machine gunning 3000 students a few years back didn't upset them so much as a big concrete wall near the west bank.

Of course there's one HUGE hole in you giant zionist conspiracy: if Israel is so powerful and all encompassing why has the country got smaller since '67? Why did they settle for a oil-less inadaquately watered speck at the top left hand corner of the middle east. Lets face it if they wanted to they could whip every arab army in a week and take over half the worlds oil in a fortnight.

Oh.. the various genetic markers you mention have far more to do with inbreeding for historic reasons (death to any Jew who married a non-Jew) than anything else. You find the same thing in any small community.

As for IQ: only verbal IQ? It took a fair bit of spatial ability to make the Manhattan project work. There was barely one non-Jew on the project. They didn't talk the plutonium to critical mass.

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Peter_Sym #48

On the subject of Belsen I would like to come back with the suggestion that possibly the liberating troops might have considered the reason for the appalling state of the inmates to have been due to supply lines having been destroyed about 3 months earlier by allied bombing. Disease and starvation being the result. That the guards had remained could either have been that they did so out of a sense of duty or that they had nowhere else to go. Either way, the fact that they were summarily 'executed' in a barbaric fashion places the perpetrators in the same league as those accused of murder in Tet. I am not making a judgement here, just trying to point out that in the ferocity of war, man descends to his savage roots rather easily - whichever nation they represent. Hence my anti-war stance. I'm just an old hippie from the 60s who's learnt to look a little further than the end of my nose and now I try to urge others to do the same.

#56. And you wonder why I get so angry with you? You reckon my grandfather was the equal of an SS guard.

The guards partially stayed behind to try and burn the bodies but mainly because the British had actually advanced passed Belsen and cut off their line of retreat. The guards weren't starving. The SS ration trucks got through perfectly well. Quite what 'supply lines' you think were destroyed beats me too. The allies made a point of NOT dropping bridges and roads (like Arnhem, Reimagen etc) so that they could use them to invade Germany.

It also rather ignores why all these people were put in the camps in the first place. Presumably you agree with JJ and think the entire Jewish race are part of a 4000 year old conspiracy. Funny hippie.

Here a hypothetical question for you that requires a simple yes or no answer: If you could give up your life today and bring back a kid that died in Dresden/Hiroshima/Vietnam would you? If not then why the hell should our soldiers have risked their lives to protect the enemy?

Peter,

YOU said your grandfather bayonetted Belsen guards who had already surrendered. I said the perpetrators were in the same league as those accused of 'murder' in Tet.

Is it not a possibility that bodies were burnt in an attempt to control the typhus?

The inmates were put into the camps to contain them, to concentrate them. This technique was first devised by - guess who?

I continue to urge you to stop simply accepting what you are told as being what IS. Look for yourself, dare to question, dig around. What you find will disquiet you.

I'm not going to offer you my views on what Israel is up to, go look for yourself with an open mind.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I'll tell you my views on Israel.... the Israelis act like swine and the only reason they get away with it is that the Arabs are just as bad.

Bringing up 'who invented concentration camps' is going back to my original objection..... because we (or the US) did something wrong in the past does not mean it justifies others doing it decades or centuries later. Two wrongs don't make a right. Even during the Boer war however there was an outcry in the British press that what we were doing was terrible. Not many German papers took that viewpoint.

Going back to Dresden... we sent 700 bombers the first night and lost about 40. Thats about a 6% chance of dying? Not bad until you remember you have to fly 30 missions before you get a rest. Do the sums- 30 x 6% = 180% chance of not surviving your tour. And you expected out young men to go easy on the Germans? Clearly in 2008 you think the RAF should have flown with navigation lights on or our soldiers not fired until fired upon. Not in the real world.

I also note you didn't answer my question about whether you'd give up your life... guess that answers my question.

Incidentally one of the bravest men I ever met was a conciensious objector. He volunteered to join the navy as a diver and spent the war defusing mines underwater. He wasn't going to take a life, but he was quite prepared to risk his own to help his country win the war.

Peter_Sym

Your grandfather was in the same situation as the 'murderers' of Tet. He was in an intolerable position and under extreme psychological pressure. He reacted instinctively, he had no evidence the guards were directly responsible, he simply believed they were. This is what war does to people. Thousands of Belsen inmates died in the months AFTER the British took over the camp. Their bodies being so damaged by the typhus that they could not digest the food initially provided by the liberators.

With your posts 60 and 61 it is difficult to understand exactly what your argument is or on what it is based. Particularly on concentration camps where you argue against yoruself. (See your post 43.) However, we are now well outside the parameters of this thread so I will conclude by saying that you are young and lead a privileged life-style. You have been brought up to believe that all about you is right and proper and that what your elders tell you is said to be true. But now it is time for you to stop swallowing everything that is handed to you and start thinking for yourself. Look outside that cosy little world of yours where everything is black and white and go back to basics. Stop 'wasting your time' (your post 23) arguing with me and instead go ask some questions of your own. Just don't flinch when you get answers you don't like. Stop believing, start discovering that 'real world' you speak of.

My gradfather saw a terrible thing and snapped. For what its worth I don't even know if he killed anyone or just stood by and watched. I wouldn't ask him that question because it changes nothing.

The VC in Hue at Tet hunted down those in admin roles- cops, teachers etc and killed them in cold blood because they disagreed on politics.

They have nothing in common.

As for 'my cosy little world'... when I was 19 I spent 4 months in Croatia as a UN peace keeper. I've seen far nastier things than you have.

Going back to my post 43. Do you think I'm glad that we burnt kids in Dresden? We bombed the city because the only way we could destroy the military targets on the ground was to burn down entire cities. Simply bombing factories (even when we did hit them) put them out of action for weeks (eg the ballbearing factories in Sweinfurt). Killing the workers put them out of action rather longer. It was horrible but how else could we win the war?

We COULD carry out incredibly accurate bombing raids (the Dambusters) if we wanted to take 50% losses. You think we should have given british lives to save German ones. I don't as some poor sod very like me would have been the one dying to save the German.

I hate the word 'collateral damage' but the concept is true. To kill the civillians adults making gun sights and shells means probably killing their kids.

Belsen on the other hand served no military purpose. It was mass-murder against innocent civillians. At Dresden at least the Germans could shoot back.

Peter_Sym (#57) "And you wonder why I get so angry with you? You reckon my grandfather was the equal of an SS guard."

What evidence did ther that Belsen guards had been directly responsible? As NewFazer has sad, thousands of Belsen inmates died in the months AFTER the British took over the camp because the typhus ridden inmates couldn't cope with the food which the British initially gave them. Zyklon B was used in camps and elsewhere as a fumigation agent, and 'gas chambers' were de-lousing chambers. NOBODY asserts there were genocidal 'gas chambers' in Western liberated camps and it's still moot but highly controversial, whether there were any in the East. The entire holocaust issue did, however, serve as very important psychological warfare and post-war political purposes - namely as a less draconian (than Salin wished at Tehran in lte 1943) de-nazification/punitive effect on Germany and politically, it pushed the West towards liberal-democratic anarchism/capitalism whilst also helping to establish Israel.

The world Jewish population today (14m) is only 1m down on what it was back in the 1930s, and Jews, like other Europeans, are in negative population growth (ageing and good heralth care hides just how much of a looming problem ths really is).

Jeffrey Sached alarmed (some) people when he sayid WE'RE ''bursting at the seams'. But who precisely was he referring to? The reality is that the EU (Frattini) is now planning to bring in 20m from S.Asia and Africa because we're headed for demographic decline due to our below replacement level birth-rates.

Europe has a birth dearth and will, if the trend continues (as it is projected to) soon see a population decline in ethnic Europeans . It is a serious problem which has concerned demographers and other thoughtful researchers for decades and it wasn't gas chambers (or genocide as conventionally understood) which brought about this disaster - it was 'liberal-democratic' values, especially impulsive-hedonism (which played a big role in the recent sub-prime mortgage fiasco and credit crunch).

This requires some very careful thought.

Peter_Sym (#63) "I've seen far nastier things than you have."

I'm (rhetorically) curious.

How can you possibly know the above? How can you be so sure that NewFazer isn't old enough to be a grandfather himself, and therefore be as likely as your grandfather to have seen as much of life, and be as well placed to enlighten you?

Not that personal experience is in itself all that matters here (as I hope has now been made abundantly clear?), but as I see it, he has simply wisely recommended that you (and others) consider alternatives to what's considered de rigueur - and done so as a healthy sceptical safe-guard against propaganda and naive error.

Entertaining alternatives is surely something to be welcomed - not rejected a priori?