´óÏó´«Ã½

A DARLING OF A CREDO - BUT A BIT IRISH?

"I'm determined we'll do everything that we can."

That is about as far as you can get from: "If I fail to get us out of this, I will resign."

Determination is subjective.
'Everything that we can' has a minimum interpretation of 'nothing'.

This is political-speak at its most insidious. The ´óÏó´«Ã½ should pounce on it whenever it appears, not let it slide as an acceptable response.

Ok while everyone is doing an impression of the Munch painting The Scream its not like we can't do anything?

A Feed in Tariff would create 100,000s of jobs, generate billions in revenue and lower bills. Yet Gordon has killed every bill trying to bring it in? Why deny on purpose the creation of so much wealth? When 19 other EU countries have a feed in tariff why is Gordon making sure the uk is left behind? Is that not a great wickedness to inflict upon the nation?

Wealth comes from [new] industry not more debt?

As there is no economic defence against bringing in a feed in tariff so it must be an ego thing? Losing political face is trivial compared to losing a huge benefit to the nation?

what we are seeing in the markets is forced liquidation. Funds that borrowed money to trade can no longer rollover loans and so have to pay that money back. So they have to sell their holdings.

the technical target where the markets could go is a LOT lower.

I agree this is the greatest financial event [even if in only money value terms] in western civilisation.

but

we have the usa election soon and after that there should be the mother of all market rallies such that people think the downward direction over but not so. There will be more blood toil tears and sweat.

So where are the sunlit uplands? In new industries. If gordon can stop killing things like the feed in tariff the uk really would be in 'better shape'.

That joke was on the ´óÏó´«Ã½ news website last week.

And the link above doesn't work- I'd like to read that it sounds interesting!

Why does the media panic so much about this 'recession'. Everyone knows things have to go up as well as down, and just by looking at the graph of GDP, it's easy to see that even a few month recession is really nothing because the economy has grown well for many years.

Will we ever accept that the economy grows most of the time, and then some of the time it shirnks. Really, it's not that big a deal.

Yes ! Why is that link not working ?

Has John Sweeney's article been 'Mandied' by the lawyers already ?

Newsnight - I couldn't give a Carter-XXXX for any other current affairs news programme..

I

A diplomat lies abroad for his country; a doormat lies at home for the party.

#3 bookhimdano

If that means using things like renewable energy technologies I am for that for sure.

Not sure I know what a Feed in Tarrif is though?

Thanks Will Self. I don't usually comment like this, but needs must. I was only saying yesterday that I longed for a TV production of a Dickens classic for adults. You put it so perfectly. What is served up does his work such a terrible injustice. Well said. Please be on the programme more often!!

Next week perhaps - Lockerbie?

...what a Feed in Tarrif is ....

it is not surprising it is not well known in the uk. There seems to be a news black out on it. Even the NN report on renewable energy in Germany ignored it. Anyone would think there is a determination to keep the public in the dark about something that would benefit them. Such is the power of the vested interests against it.

A feed in tarrif allows energy to be sold back to the grid. This covers both individuals and companies. So the millions of acres of factory roof across the uk could be put into energy production. By getting paid for surplus energy sold back to the grid it offsets the costs.

In germany it created 100,000's of new jobs, generates billions in income and lowers energy bills. There are more solar panels in the German city of Freiburg than in the whole of Britain. More energy is produced by the feed in tariff for the german economy than the whole of uk nuclear does for the uk. And that is just the beginning.

The uk is one of the few countries to continually block a feed in tariff. There is no economic reason for doing so.

FEED IN TARIFF

What is more, the cabling is already in place, as the output from any installation is unlikely to exceed rated capacity.
Also, the necessary smart kit is tried tested and available - obviously.

As bookhimdano has indicated, there has to be vested interest at work here. On the face of it 'government' would jump at such an easy hit of 'greenness'. But government is often in thrall to 'dark forces' while individuals in government have nests to line for retirement. Look how long it is taking to rein in tobacco. That is how long it might take to rollout 'feed-in'.

Yet another example of how British corruption is so much more insidious and culturally pervasive - woven invisibly into power and privilege - than the primitive, overt foreign sort.

Keep at it Bookhim, I am cheering you on.

yes in the same way every factory had a chimney for the steam energy it could now have a windmill/panels/heat pumps/heat exchangers etc all networked together across the country through the grid.

It would make the uk an energy superpower with a highly competitive economy [energy costs are a big part of business].


Ed might be reading so the latest news from 17th oct is
....'Ed Milliband' also announced that the government would be revising the current Energy Bill to offer a feed-in tariff for small-scale renewables, likely to support solar photovoltaics (PV), small wind and the like. The details of this have yet to be disclosed.....


which given they went out of their way to kill every other feed in tariff is a huge u turn. The detail is the important part. they could twist the rules so it is unworkable which is what they have done in the past.

One should not underestimate the vested interests who stand to loose billions in revenue in what in effect would be the biggest redistribution of wealth from rich to poor ever seen in the uk. By accident Gordon might become in the words of Lennon 'a working class hero is something to be'. but in this case every class would benefit. its win win.

bookhimdano (#10) Thanks as ever for your contributions about the markets.

With respect to the two-way grid idea, this sounds good (perhaps you might provide some links to the German experience?), but looking around the UK these days, all one sees is devolution (which Miliband used to present as grass roots democracy), i.e hands off government aka anarchism. If one wants infrastructure like you're suggesting surely one needs strong national (socialist) government, which is surely the antithesis of what we have? What we appear to have instead is quasi 'permanent revolution' or market-forces as every tom dick and harry compete to make the most out of hapless consumers. How does the ability to choose between one provider and another make any real difference if what they sell is a function of how much they pay for oil and gas, and those prices are in large part tax and the result of speculation? I keep thinking we're all missing the bigger picture which is that the amount of power or 'choice' which most people have is largely illusory, something wich shows up in the energy company's profits to meet the needs of shareholders. All of these companies and their beneficiaries will fight regulation at the expense of anything equitable surely? The more ignorant consumers there are, the more money they can make out of them, as I see it. As you can't make the consumers less ignorant, and as greater regulation appears no more than a pipe-dream, what can be done? This will all end in tears. One can see symptoms of this adolescent narcissistic entitlement and self-centredness even in this blog, which is supposedly frequented by the more educable sections of the blogosphere.

MORE POWER TO YOUR NECK (of the woods)

HI JJ. I am pretty sure bookhimdano put a link up - anyway, I followed one about the German experience - impressive.

I reckon the real experience will kick in when 'Feed-in Bloke' can brag to his mates about his economic advantage. Also, when new houses, lacking a feed-in function, will sell badly by comparison.

I can dream.

LIMITED ED. (#12)

If Ed Miliband's contribution is as imaginative as his brother's in matters green, it will be limited indeed. I saw the soft, grey government announcement, and went back to sleep.

We need a hero.

10. At 11:25am on 25 Oct 2008, bookhimdano

'...what a Feed in Tarrif is ....

it is not surprising it is not well known in the uk. There seems to be a news black out on it.'

Thank you for a concise summary of the concept and technology behind it. Truly 'FiT for purpose'.

It's a shame such clarity is not evident more often, if at all, in this area. Especially with what seems a truly promising and, as you suggest, 'win-win' aspect of what 'we' could be doing in this country.

I rather suspect that whatever the reasons, if any 'reporter' or 'analyst' currently employed by Aunty does get on the case, they will soon be off by helicopter to a snowy place quicker than you can say 'celebrity awareness campaign' if a polar bear coughs up a penguin who has a Tesco bag round its leg.

Especially with Xmas coming up.

Quote

"POWER TO THE PEOPLE - THE DECENTRALISED ENERGY REVOLUTION

We want to see a decentralised energy revolution in Britain.

Instead of relying on the large centralised energy providers of old, we want Britain to adopt micro-generation: small providers, including homes and businesses, producing energy for their own use, using a variety of methods from combined heat and power (CHP) to wind to photovoltaic power.

A new system of ‘feed-in tariffs’, by which people are paid for the energy they produce, will stimulate diversity and decentralisation of our power supply, as well as incentivise energy-saving.

Our decentralised energy paper sets out plans to encourage micro-generation through feed-in tariffs:

* Enable every small firm, local school, hospital and household to generate electricity through micro-generation
* A fixed price to be paid for all electricity produced from decentralised, low carbon sources
* Ensure smart meters are available free of charge to anyone installing micro-generating capacity"



I think you will find the above is a Conservative Party Policy.
I think David Cameron has been for micro generation since he put his own wind power unit on his house back in 2006.



I hope the above link works , it's me first time trying to embed a link on here.

DAVE AND THE POWER OF DAVE

Oh steve - I was with you there - for a while.

If Cameron had done any homework he would not have gone for wind on a house.
With small kids and a moderate sized house(?) 'solar' hot water would probably have made more sense. (I have to say I was not impressed by his Santa act in the frozen north either.) A few quick sums, show roof generation is unlikely to pay for the installation (generator + smart box) before it needs service or disposal, and I guess the energy of manufacture might exceed output too!

Why not contact Tory HQ for an up-date?

Fridays News Night


Just a few things that concern me.

1) Lowering interest rates could have a few knock on effects -
a) Even less returns for savers( why should anyone save ?).
b) A lower value for Sterling (imported inflation).

2) G7 enlargement , why ?
The G7 group are stable Democracies , enlarging it could mean sitting down with dictators who are having serious justified political unrest in their country ?

3) Markets get excited about "New market opportunities".
What is our government doing to excite the Markets ?

4) As I remarked 6 months ago, I think the UK markets (and citizens) have issues with our current Government , Labour has been tarnished over their regulatory reforms , 2007- 2008 budget modified 2 or 3 times , just to name two.

Off topic -

I was looking at 2007 GDP and Government budget the other day.
Why or How is the Government getting nearly 50% of our GDP ?

Very Rough figures

GDP = £1,300 ish billion
Gov Budget = £ 640 ish billion

Maybe someone could explain this to me ?



*Given the Economic problems of today , I should specify that I am NO ECONOMIST, I am just a poor deluded citizen trying to understand what the hell happened or is happening !

Well, someone had to do it.

Hi Barrie

I think you are correct his house is not suited for a wind power unit , but what his action did prove, if you did want to put a wind power unit on your house you needed planning permission.
I believe having such a high media profile he did succeed in raising this issue and embarrassing the so called Green Government and the Local Authority to relax their rules for such systems.

Now I live in London, some might think London is not a good place for wind power units , but actually where I live my house gets clear unobstructed wind from the North , East and West and as I don't live in the valley , my house is high compared to the surrounding area.

My neighbour has a small wind power unit on his garage, this spins on 90% of the days(even when we get 80mph wind) , he uses the power to light his garage and his flower beds (12hrs 365 days a year). I am sure he has the system back up of the national grid , specially for those long summer nights when the wind is not blowing, but hay its some free energy.
I'll have to ask him what percentage of free energy he gets.

Then I got another neighbour , he has solar string lights up his steps and in his car drive bay. It does look nice and they seem to be working every night.

I am no great fan of the Green issue myself , my only concern is energy security , I'll take green power or any other that is in our national interest to keep the lights on.

But credit where credit is due, this is the Conservative Policy, well so their web pages say.

But unlike Labour and Lib Dems , I have no reason to distrust their manifesto policies , yet .

If your so keen on David Cameron's windmill story , please email the Conservatives yourself.

Any view from Newsnight and its extensive crew of US reporters/analysts/bloggers as to why 50% of the UK population is less than inspired by the ongoing shenanigans of an election in a foreign, if highly significant country whose votes we cannot, should not and do not have an influence upon despite the month on month, wall to wall, obsessive, partisan, often trivial coverage.... oh.

I just ask because a presenter on ´óÏó´«Ã½ Breakfast News opined that it may be due to 'a breakdown in the special relationship'.

Bless.

POWER PLAY

Hi Steve - sorry, I just hate party political reference; I would rather have good governance. Genuine contrition though - honest.

I gather from your post, Dave had to take the roof unit down? That's a shame, I would have enjoyed asking the Cons how it was doing.

My education and working life were all science orientated. I would LOVE a generator on my roof, but without 'feed-in' it is just an indulgence, by my assessment. And WITH feed-in, the initial cost goes up for the smart-box, electrician (and no doubt a fee to the pivatised utility). I really doubt pay-back of expenditure or environmental impact of manufacture is viable.

(:o) Barrie

HI Barrie

I can understand your dislike of the party system, I personally would like to see the Party's Whips only allowed 3 or 4 times over a whole Parliament (5 years).
I believe MP's are suppose to do their constituents bidding and not their parties, anything less just discredits democracy more and more.


"I gather from your post, Dave had to take the roof unit down? That's a shame, I would have enjoyed asking the Cons how it was doing."

The last thing I heard was on the news showing his house was on flat land with houses all the way around it, I would think (I am no expert) it wouldn't work very well. The news people did enjoy themselves about it , specially when it looked like he had broken planning rules or was going to get refused planning permission, I cant remember the exact events.But it highlighted that the planning rules were bias against such systems. This might not or might have been the intention of Mr Cameron, only he really knows that.

"I would LOVE a generator on my roof, but without 'feed-in' it is just an indulgence, by my assessment. And WITH feed-in, the initial cost goes up for the smart-box, electrician (and no doubt a fee to the pivatised utility). I really doubt pay-back of expenditure or environmental impact of manufacture is viable."

I agree some houses will not be suited for wind power units , but there are other forms free energy , like solar.

As to "Pay-Back" issue I would say to my knowledge my neighbours wind power unit has been going for 5 years ish. I've only once seen the blades taken off.

Feed in , well that's what I pointed out , it looks like the Conservatives want to do that, I have not got time to look at the detail of their proposal , but if you can swap home generated power units for national grid billed units , it sounds good to me and is not another tax raising exercise that we have all endured under the current Government.
Maybe News Night would like to find out for us ?

Manufacturing of these units , well what are they ?
An electric motor , but instead of needing to be powered , the wind turns the spindle and the magnets effect the copper wire to make electricity , it is not new technology in principle.

Installation -

I would suggest , except for the wiring in to the national grid , most home owners could follow the instructions. As for the smart meter apparently the Conservatives said it would be free (sure the devil is in the detail).
Maybe News Night could find out for us ?

Environment -
Of course I care about the environment too, but I am a realist , keeping the lights on and the plug not being pulled at a whim of a foreign power is my real concern, any carbon foot print we save is just another plus to me.

Side note -

The ´óÏó´«Ã½ weather site says we got 7mph wind today , my neighbours wind power unit is spinning fast enough I would not want to put my hand near it.
Will it power a microwave , probably not , but it lights their garage and flowerbeds.
Maybe it is a indulgent , but it must be better than having to pay the power companies for their indulgent or they would never installed it, I am presuming.

Steve-London (#24) This has been covered. It doesn't work. Not only that, Justin blew his eco-warrior bit by having another baby.

(Rhetorical question: Why do so many of us refer to what we 'think' as our criteria for truth/sanity instead of empirical evidence?

#25

Hi Jean

I think Ethical Man should have been realistic about what he wanted a wind generator for in the first place , garden lights are one thing , running household appliances are another.

My PC currently is using 80 watts (not including screen) , if I play a game it bounces up to near 200 watts , a 40 inch LCD tv uses up to 225 watts, what does a cooker use ? 2 kw (a guess).

Lets compare to a normal energy saving light bulb of 11 watts ?
We could compare to LED bulbs that are 1 watt , but I wont because I don't rate them much.

I have also discovered that these wind turbines for micro generation are rated with a minimum activation wind speed , I found a government site that gives average wind speeds for any location within the UK. .This would help in matching the right wind generator for your location, if at all.

As my first post stated the problem of feed-in and the cost of smart meters seem to be addressed with by the Conservative policies

#25

Hi Jean

Sorry for the half post above , my mouse went mad.

I think Ethical Man should have been realistic about what he wanted a wind generator for in the first place , garden lights are one thing , running household appliances are another.

My PC currently is using 80 watts (not including screen) , if I play a game it bounces up to near 200 watts , a 40 inch LCD tv uses up to 225 watts, what does a cooker use ? 2 kw (a guess).

Lets compare to a normal energy saving light bulb of 11 watts ?
We could compare to LED bulbs that are 1 watt , but I wont because I don't rate them much.

I have also discovered that these wind turbines for micro generation are rated with a minimum activation wind speed , I found a government site that gives average wind speeds for any location within the UK. .This would help in matching the right wind generator for your location, if at all.

As my first post stated the problem of feed-in and the cost of smart meters seem to be addressed with by the Conservative policies .
I realize some people don't like political parties mentioned , but if that was a real problem they would not watch the News that reports on our party politics .

In regard to your "Rhetorical Question" , I would like to answer , my comments are drawn from my observations , granted I don't have access to all the data sheets of my neighbours wind generator to see what ratio of free power he gets for his garage lights and flower bed lights. That might indeed be unscientific , but it is not just a theory.



Oh my comments about the Labour Gov still not helping about planning rules and regulation
, just incase you thought I was just bashing Labour.


I still feel a little bemused by the responses of me pointing out about the Conservatives policy on feed-in and smart meters , I thought I was being helpful.

Owell thats life I guess .