´óÏó´«Ã½

Rather than re-post it: One for Paul perhaps?

"We'll be getting Paul Moore's reaction tonight."

I can't wait..

Unemplyment 1.97 million? Pull the other one - the government is massaging the figures for all they're worth to prevent the magic figure of 2 million being breached. Labour used to attack the Tories for this kind of thing, but Labour has taken it to new heights!

Being someone who needs and wants to buy a car at the present time, and who has the cash so does not need a loan, perhaps Jeremy can ask the car workers why car makers are putting the prices up?

I have been looking at several UK-made cars - Toyota, Honda, Nissan all built in the UK - and the prices have literally gone up since the New Year. As soon as Honda closed the CRV factory in Swindon the price of CRVs in several dealerships I have been monitoring went up between 1 and 2 thousand pounds which, bearing in mind that I had not seen any sign of reductions in the present climate, is either simply madness or just pure greed.

In other words, if the car-makers and car workers are going to be arguing for Government bail-outs and preferential treatment tonight I will simply laugh out loud and then throw something at my TV screen.

Jeremy, tell them to do what M&S and all the other retailers are having to do at the moment in order to save themselves from going bust - drop the prices and drop them by 20, 30 or 40 percent!

J GORDON NOAH, WITHOUT AN ARK.

I keep hearing the 'Labour faithful' (and J Gordon himself, indeed) defend Brown by pointing out that he was telling all and sundry, FOR TEN YEARS, that a GLOBAL regulatory agreement was needed.

Would it be fair to assume that he arrived at this conclusion because he felt that global money, UNREGULATED, could GET OUT OF CONTROL?

By 'year ten', one might expect J Gordon to be PRETTY TWITCHY about the state of global money (if he is as bright as he tells us) and, in the absence of global concern, WOULD HAVE PUT BRITAIN IN A DEFENSIVE STANCE (while crowing like mad about his PRUDENCE).

In stead, so far as I know, he kept quiet and made hay while the clouds darkened. (Just like the banks?) What a fine (unspecified) steward of Britain and the British he turned out to be. Noah - in the know - but without an Ark!

Smart home-owners in Australia MADE PREPARATION for fire. They did not just prance about talking pan-Australian terrain management regulation.

Why are the media inquisitors not pointing out that Brown's position does not stand logical scrutiny? Have they simply not noticed?

ANARCHO ERGO DUMB

This government makes me laugh, last year Jobcentre plus was paying redundancy payments in excess of £40,000 to staff and this year they are trying to re hire the said same staff because of a lack of knowledge of benefits within the department!!!

why not bring in forced employment, there are many areas in the UK that require workers surely it is better to keep people employed and working than for them to be at home doing not a lot. Maybe another thing to do would be to expand and build up our forces bring in conscription so that from the age of say 18 - 22 every person is conscripted therefore there are less perople looking for the jobs plus our forces would then actually have the required amount of personnel that they are lacking.

The man who sorted himself out and did a degree in social work is the example to follow. When you hear others moaning about not getting government help with CV's etc you know there isn't much hope for them. I don't blame them, it's the nanny state government who has taught them not to think for themselves and then left them in the lurch when things get tough. The people of this country have got some hard lessons to learn. Hopefully they will emerge enlightened and reject all state interference in their lives.

Excellent programme tonight, I've never seen Oliver James so angry. He was really upset about the way our society is being managed. It was good to hear the views of "the man in the street" instead of politicians and their slogans. I think the three MPs were actually squirming in their seats at the misery they induce. And very well managed by Mr Paxman, most were given a chance to air their views.

#3 Blurtman, you are right there! My sister, in her fifties was made redundant 9 months ago, it's impossible for her to find work at her age. She was worked 32 years in total, but only 18 months in her recent job, so didn't qualify for job seekers allowance. So guess what, she's unemployed but doesn't show up anywhere in the figures. How many more people are like that, especially women.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I notice a lack of response to Kenny Wards comments on tonights programme regarding the discrimination against British workers in their own country. This is something that wont go away while we are being dictated to by European law. The same law aplies to the rest of Europe but you wouldnt see the French the Germans or the Dutch, allowing foreign companies to bring labour onto contracts whilst their own countrymen are unemployed. These contracts are given out to foreign companies undercutting British firms by using cheap labour, which will do nothing to help this goverments fight to get people back to work. some sort of legislation must be implemented now to force these companies to employ British labour first before its too late.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Tictac70 (#6) "This government makes me laugh, last year Jobcentre plus was paying redundancy payments in excess of ?40,000 to staff"

That's the glory of privatisation of the public sector, it's more cost-effective and efficient. They did much the same to the CJS alchemists (probation). The root problem lies in the birth rate and our skewed demographics. Alas, that won't be changed by social alchemists as it's probably largely genetic. Changes will take (a very long) time.

Simon_987 (#8) "..it's the nanny state government who has taught them not to think for themselves and then left them in the lurch when things get tough. The people of this country have got some hard lessons to learn. Hopefully they will emerge enlightened and reject all state interference in their lives."

Note the liberal use of terms like 'taught', 'think for themselves', learn', 'enlightened'. Look into the abject failure of LSC run adult literacy/numeracy skills courses, our inability to alchemically increase cognitive ability (just resource what is there) but the widespread myth that through education, motivation, self-determination and other dubious intensional, medieval notions like that, which you dopn't relaly know how to use (any more than anyone else to be fair) with any empircial consequence. Cheap talk. See #11.

ecolizzy (#9) "I've never seen Oliver James so angry. He was really upset about the way our society is being managed."

Yes, except he's not exactly saying anythng useful is he? His remrk about getting the money back from bankers etc was just naive. They have done nothing 'wrong' (illegal). He's another alchemist just coming to see the folly of his ways rather late perhaps? Newsnight etc always wheel out the same people...

thegangofone (#11) It will come as little surprise to many regulars here that despite sincere, benevolent, efforts to help you see the erro of your ways, you still have not learned why the ad hominem is irrational, nor, it would appear, are you a very diligent/skilled reader or judge of character. (See #8).

I watched Newsnight last night (first time for ages) and I could not help but be reminded of Noel's House Party. Jeremy in the part of Noel himself with the three victims in their chairs not knowing which one is to be 'gunged' on the whim of the audience. Even the set seemed reminiscent.

These antics can only be in the name of ratings chasing which is entirely irrelevant. Newsnight used to be a serious production - if it were again I'd guarantee at least one more viewer.

Excellent Newsnight last night - particularly when Jeremy asked the audience and McNulty/May etc if anyone had any confidence in the governement regarding employment and only 1 put his and up - and it wasn't McNulty!!
The angry guy in the eyesore jumper - Oliver James - demanded an apology from the government....
Great to see Newsnight on the road and getting views of all across the spectrum.

Repost:

Simon_987 (#8) "..it's the nanny state government who has taught them not to think for themselves and then left them in the lurch when things get tough. The people of this country have got some hard lessons to learn. Hopefully they will emerge enlightened and reject all state interference in their lives."

Note the liberal use of terms like 'taught', 'think for themselves', learn', 'enlightened'. Look into the abject failure of LSC run adult literacy/numeracy skills courses, our inability to alchemically increase cognitive ability (just resource what is already there and direct/shape it) but the widespread myth that through education, motivation, self-determination and other dubious intensional, medieval notions like that, which you don't really know how to use with any evidence based empirical consequence (any more than anyone else to be fair - none of it 'works' - Tony McNulty please note why) you 'believe' otherwise. Cheap, thoughtless talk. See #11.

carloscontractor (#12) "regarding the discrimination against British workers in their own country. This is something that wont go away while we are being dictated to by European law. The same law aplies to the rest of Europe but you wouldnt see the French the Germans or the Dutch, allowing foreign companies to bring labour onto contracts whilst their own countrymen are unemployed."

How can the UK Government do anything about multinational companies complaint with EU law which the UK Government ratified via Lisbon? Unless one can say something which can be viably done, is there any point saying anything?

Are you asserting that other EU member states are acting in violation of EU law? If so, please provide examples, better still, inform Brussels.

I don't disagree with your sentiments, but we had no say in Lisbon, and those who talk of nationalism/protectionism are screamed at as 'nazis' (National Socialists). The alternative is, apparently, International Socialism (the SI) which seems to be in bed with multinational capitalism/PFI etc.

#8

It's not fair to generalize. The woman in question receives some 270 pounds between her and her husband each month. After feeding children and paying for things around the house, she barely has the money to keep her house from being repossessed. Do you really expect people in real, desperate situations like hers to have the luxury of taking a year off and getting another degree on their own expenses?

When all the trees have been cut down,
when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted,
when all the air is unsafe to breathe,
only then will you discover you cannot eat money.
(Cree Prophecy)

While I should not like to see this format too often, I think that once in a while it is an excellent idea, especially when some point of real and immediate public concern can be made. Confronting MPs with the human beings who are paying the price for the government's policies might just possibly get through to them that what they do causes very real suffering. And it was good when the camera stayed focused on the MPs' faces while the hardships were spelt out.

If anyone needs proof of the extent to which our politicians have lost touch with reality, they should watch last night's programme.

For once the politicians were made to confront the result of their incompetence.

Politicians are normally given an easy ride by the media. Perhaps if they had to regularly endure the roasting they were given last night, they'd raise their game or find something else to do.

I agree with RicardianLesley.
Everyone looked very discomforted. It reminded me of a similar programme at the time of the Crewe and Nantwich byelection.

I was very impressed by Oliver James' short blast of a contribution last night.

But why didn't Paxman integrate the comments into the debate? Why didn't he get Teresa May to answer his charge? Paxman's questioning is often sharp and challenging - but was in this instance too narrow in political scope. This is a huge political and economic crisis which throws many of the assumptions and claims of anglo-american neo-liberalism into dissaray. Is this crisis a departure from some kind of panacea?

No, rampant consummerism was/is never that good, and that's why this crisis need not be all bad. But newsnight failed to open the debate up to possible reconsideration of our priorities and values as a society. Well done to newsnight for having James' on - but it's failure to take him up on his comments was a revelation of how timid newsnight can sometimes be.

JadedJean,

"LSC run adult literacy/numeracy skills courses, our inability to alchemically increase cognitive ability (just resource what is there)."

What on earth does all that mean? It is the sort of corporate doublespeak I hear when I deal with public sector employees who can spout that stuff all day but haven't got a clue how the real world works.

"which you don't really know how to use with any evidence based empirical consequence"

I assume you mean are there any figures to support people looking after themselves rather than relying on the state. I know plenty of people like that and they're all more successful than those who rely on the state to tell them what to do. That is the message that will trickle down. Rely on yourself rather than some unworldly theoriser employed by the state who tries to tell you you can get a job if you go on a cognitive ability enhancement course to help you redefine anachronistic relationships and orchestrate contextual alliteration, whatever that is.

THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT (#23)

I am much in accord Jonathan. I suspect Paxman's brief (and what wins awards) is 'a good all round show' rather than distilling any conclusion.

I can personally attest to Oliver James' non-mercenary nature and basic humanity. That is where the anger came from. Unlike the J Gordon Brown 'anger' (expressed against the banks and as false as his smile) which has no visceral quality, Oliver James exploded for all of us.

James has written of an underlying sickness in the English speaking world. If that is not addressed, politicians and bankers will continue to behave badly. Most likely, WE WILL INFECT THE REST OF THE WORLD and emotional grey goo will be our end. No wonder he was hopping.

Simon_987 (#34) "What on earth does all that mean?"

You ask, but do you really want to know? If you do, I suggest you click on my username and read back through archived posts (use a skip=11 rather than the URL default of 25). You'll need to think a bit more than you did before posting the above glib nonsense though. Begin with links to ETS and Leitch.

A week or go Oliver James was on the Richard Bacon show on Fivelive. Oliver got talking about things and Bacon interrupted mentioning Dawkins - as if mere mention of Dawkins is an aswer to everything.

At which point Oliver simply tore into Dawkins, thankfully silencing the interrupting Bacon, and it was the best 10 or so minutes on radio this year.

So it was a bitter disappointment last night not to hear Oliver James's comments being expanded on.

In truth, I think Jeremy and the panel of guests were so shocked by what he said that they were still trying to figure out what he was talking about even as the programme ended. You could almost hear them thinking "Neo-liberalism - what's that?" and could almost hear the grey cogs in their brains turning over searching for an answer.

Jeremy Paxman is the least bad (along with the brilliant Evan Davies and perhaps Jon Snow) of journalists but continues to surf the wave he's himself created around his persona (commanding figure, deep scary voice, ever-condescending manners). He is not as sharp and knowledgeable as everybody claims, and he often asks irrelevant questions for the sake of going against the grain.
Last night was no exception.
The situation is dire, no doubt, but why fall into some much demagoguery?

Some people are losing their jobs and struggling to find new roles, I am sure that is the case. But what was with the attack against the Job Centre? What has that got to do with the dicussion around the crisis and accountability for what caused it?!!!!
We had people whining about the treatment they receive, deemed as inadequate. People development is a great thing, but not the main mandate of the JC. Besides, jobseekers should be actively looking for work and NOT relying on the JC to do that for them. You have to do the leg work when you're looking for a job, it's not nice, but it's always been like that.

The same people I heard last night, so quick at critizing the government for not helping them, are often the same who slag off the 'nanny state' for interferring in their lives. Make up your mind.

And why can't the UK adopt measures such as the ones in Germany to rescue the car industry? One, because the scale of the sector is by no means the same. Secondly, taxation in Germany is somehow higher than the levels we enjoy here. Less money in the kitty here, means less to spend. Make up your mind, do you want relatively low income tax and the subsequent returns that come with it, or would you prefer to pay higher taxes?

As for Oliver James' intervention, I felt he totally had a point. It's a shame, there was no follow-up by Paxman.

#24 Simon_987

The double speak relates to the fact that many of the posters on this page cannot be too open about their views if they want to "politically educate" "anarchists and Trotskyites". Almost everybody who disagrees is an anarchist and Trotskyite.

They like eugenics, big government, race "realism" etc etc

They dislike people who "paint Hitler as darkly as possible" for "party political reasons". Thats me for example, a Lib Dem voter not an "anarchist and Trotskyite".

They are hazy on the Holocaust but like statistics about Jewish survival rates from the 30's.

You don't need to be Einstein (mainstream scientists are all Jews) to guess their place in the political spectrum.

They do not profess to be Nazis or the BNP.

They will try to discourage people to create the illusion (in their own minds) that they are making friends and influencing people.

So don't expect a meeting of minds, but I am sure you don't.

tawse57 (#27) Have you noticed how James' area of competence/expertise changes with whatever the media's covering? Have you noticed how they hardely ever wheel out the people who really have something to say - as that would be too controversial? Still, as NewFazer said, it was very 'entertaining'. To the best of my knowledge, the closest Newsnight dares come to the views that matter is when they have Migrationwatch on. If they were really serious about all this they'd also have Coleman and Lynn on at least, i.e they'd cover the hard data trends. They don't - conclusion it's all just theatre.

"India has described the admission by Pakistan that last year's Mumbai terror attacks were partly planned on its soil as a "positive development"."

I am still puzzled as to how there seems to have been no identification of how the terrorists reached Mumbai.

Did they arrive by ship and could not the Indian Navy and Western satellites identify the boat/ship(s) and origins?

It would have seemed to me to be a goldmine of people who would have had information about their passengers and not to be hard core anti-interrogation trained. Also their is the money/logistics trail.

How about a piece on sexual deviancy on the far right?

Maybe a psychologist to investigate what it is that draws people like the illiterate Baby P batterer and the recent paedophile and would-be nail bomber to that political stance. Thats just a couple of recent examples.

It seems you don't have to be a pervert to be an ultra-rightist. But Hitler used to have his "drinking" sessions with his niece and I think three girl friends killed themselves with the same calibre gun? Seems to be almost a tradition.

Still none of the intellectuals that would watch Newsnight would be interested.

#28 Bergamotte

As an example of what the Job Centre doesn't do they don't help people who are likely to be say discriminated against by age.

Also they do try to point people in good directions - and the also over-burdened careers service do make a brave stab - but its pretty poor.

For example a few years ago the trend was that everybody would retrain to be plumbers and electricians. Except ageism kicks in and East Europeans (and I like Poles far more than goose steppers) gets hired. Then they may go home as jobs have dried up here, people will start retaining to get the jobs, the economy picks up in a few years, the East Europeans will return. An inefficient waste of talent.

Who can plan in the face of such instability? How many working years do people get and can they now even think of early retirement as their pensions are worth zip?

I agree that it needs clear government level policies.

Still as that City head hunter said on Newsnight the other month of redundant city workers : "they are all smart people who have been liberated to find their dream jobs".

Or they have been liberated to find out how to build a hobo stove.

Sir I really believe Paul Moore should testify before The Treasury Select Committee. Give the public the opportunity to hear this man's complaints. Let us make up our own minds where the truth Lay.

thegangofone (#31) "I am still puzzled as to how there seems to have been no identification of how the terrorists reached Mumbai."

Link or

Tony McNulty banging on about how the job centres and access to the benefit system had improved over the last 12 years just shows how out of touch he and the rest of the government are: they're more concerned with appearences and presentation than with actually creating jobs and training. I've been unemployed for 8 months now and job centre + have been no use whatsoever, in fact they hinder all efforts at retraining and updating my skills because I don't tick the appropiate boxes. When he talks of half a million vacancies, they seem to be mostly low end, minimum wage, part time hours & temporary positions. Yet another opportunity lost by this government to create wothwhile and fulfilling employment and they think its ok because the "full monty" queues have been relpaced with comfy seats and security guards.

blueskybarron (#34) What would be the point? Isn't clear enough? They clearly orchestrated this anarchism.

It's all water under the bridge now, plus a bit of theatre for the public.

JadedJean #30 - I believe he has a new book out.

I tend to have a big pinch of salt to anyone on the TV or Radio who has a new book out but at least James is frank and refreshing in that he speaks him mind clearly and firmly.

Am I alone in being totally fed up with endless people - showbiz luvvies, showbiz luvvy journos, showbiz luvvie politicians - who appear on the News, on chat shows and similar and talk alot but never actually say anything? Most of them speak endlessly but actually say less than Joaquim Phoenix on The David Letterman Show!

My Personal Views -

Unemployment Mortgage Benefit

Before 1997 , if you became unemployed you had to wait for 12 weeks before the State would pay your interest charged on your mortgage debt.


After Labour got into power they changed this to 39 week before the State would pay your interest on your mortgage debt.


Now they have brought it back down to 12 week before the State will pay your mortgage interest payments.

I am glad Labour have done a UTURN on this policy.


Should the Government Do Another UTURN On ?

I think so , people who have had to buy a home at over inflated prices (due to the housing Boom and now Bust) need help before they run into difficulties , not when they are caught in the benefit system.

With workers being asked to take below inflation pay rewards (their pay not increasing in-line with inflation) or hours being reduced and with the devaluing of Sterling (due to the economy's perceived weakness) and it's predicted higher inflation effect , families are going to need as much help as possible to meet their mortgage repayments and keep a roof over them.


This of course should only effect peoples main homes , NOT buy 2 lets.


Mr Brown

This could well be his downfall , he can try and deny he knew anything , but at the end of the day, he was responsible for the setting up and the running of the FSA.


Warning : are active in this forum !

My Personal views -

Unemployment Figures

People claiming Job Seekers Benefit might be 1.97 million .

But I have been hearing from people that if one person from a couple is working , the other partner (who finds themselves unemployed) can not claim any Job Seekers Benefit (money)? So they don't bother to sign on.

Also at the last count 2.6 million people were claiming incapacity benefit.

There is no doubt there are legitimate claimants of incapacity benefit, but it has been widely suggested over the years that Governments have hidden the long term unemployed in that benefit.

So putting all the above together , I find it hard to believe that unemployment is only 1.97 million currently.

#40 Steve-London

You are exactly right there, as I explained about my sister in post #10. Several women she worked with also can't find work, but have partners so can't claim any benefit, or appear in unemployment figures. The actual number of unemployed must be much higher. But I did see the immigrants are doing ok. Figures released by the ONS, said in the last three months of '08, 278,000 indiginous people became unemployed, but 214,000 immigrants found work. Doesn't take a mathematician to work out where the jobs have gone then does it?!

#25 Barrie I have to agree with you here. Jean did say what difference would his comment make, which is true, but on the other hand I think he did vent his anger very well, unusual for him.

Also as another poster commented, why didn't Jeremy take up his point? It just lay there, said, but ignored, no one was allowed to follow it up.

ecolizzy (#42) "why didn't Jeremy take up his point? It just lay there, said, but ignored, no one was allowed to follow it up."

Perhaps because Jeremy summed it up when he said "you're angry aren't you!"?

What Oliver James said was theatrical if not histrionic. He doesn't seem to know that there's no legal means of taking back money from these (still) essentially Private Sector banks, so in my view, he shouldn't expect to be taken very seriously. Behavioiur has to be examined in terms of its controlling contingencies and the important oneshere are our laws. When Ronnie Fox was giving evidence on remuneration before the Treasury Select Committee his basic point was that it's the market which determines what's spent on what. That didn't go down very well (I provided a link at the time to the oral evidence transcript, it's worth reading), but I suspect the Committee's apparent outrage was theatre too.

We live in a parliamentary Liberal-Democracy, and we have seen legislation passed which allowed, if not encouraged, all that's happened. It's not just been in Financial Services either - people just care abou this more because it hits them where it hurts more. The Public Sector has been hit too, people just don't care about that alas.

What we're seeing is venal, but it's all been legal, and as I've said to others who then ostensibly express outrage, one has to look carefully at how all this has been contrived, there's no point just getting emotional about it, yet appeals to the Newsnight team to cover some of the real fundamentals still go ignored.

THE OLD EMOTION PLOY KATO (#42/43)

Hi Lizzie and JJ. I am now pondering why emotion has not been bred out over man's span on the planet. If it gets in the way of positive behaviours, what's going on?

I gather that women put 'humour' as high on their wish list in a fanciable bloke. That must be a branch of emotion? So is it that humour is like the Toucan's beak? i.e. we could well do without it, but it tends to lead on to procreation/ (:o))

Fascinating.

LEVELS OF DELAYED CONSUMPTION

barrie (#44) "If it gets in the way of positive behaviours, what's going on?"

I suspect it's a levels of behaviours thing (like an onion with cruder/immediate behaviours at the core). If one looks at the anatomy of the 'reward/reinforcement' monoamines (dopamine, 5-HT, noradrenaline) they have cell bodies in the pons and medulla which innervate rostral paleo-striatial/cortical as well as the neo-stiatial/cortical structures. The former are shared with many of our less developed (in evolutionary terms) relatives and tend to be cruder in terms of the sensory and motor inputs/outputs - the latter are more refined/discriminating in their I/O. Behaviours are not reinforced just because of their emotional value, but these do still play a big part in some of our behaviours, so we are still easily taken in, some more than others. It's hard to be rational, so it's rarer - hence intelligence's distribution in my view.

Not much of the higher examples of that in evidence alas.

A very sad sign of our times.

A POSITIVE JOBCENTRE EXPERIENCE

I was made redundant from my job at the end of last year in November, and aAfter a series of disappointments in trying to find a full-time job, in late January, I decided to sign on at my local JobCentre Plus in Wood Green.
Whilst I can't speak for the whole country, my own personal experience of this JobCentre, has been a very positive one.
I have a specialist advisor, and she has taken an active interest in my search for a job, and has even pulled in her personal contacts to see if they can help.
I've also found the staff to be friendly, helpful and positive, and whilst I am still trying to find a job, I have found the JobCentre experts are doing all they can, and even a little more, to help me find one.