´óÏó´«Ã½

SLOWE BY NAME - SLOWE BY NATURE. (Trust him he's a doctor?)

Mandelson has CHARISMA?????????? Pull the other one. The great stage actor Blair had charisma - sadly. It did not work on me (and a few million others) But Mandelson? NO. NO-NO-NO.

Mandelson has arrogance and contempt - written all over his face - and another Mandelson, in the attic, who is going through all sorts of torment. Surely it will end in a third lot of tears?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Mandy may be capable. at least by the standards of the Cabinet, but charisma? He comes across as both snooty & slippery. Blair, genocidal war criminal though he was, got away with it because he never seemed snooty - thats what politics is about.

'ELLO, 'ELLO, 'ELLO

"Mandelson is the only one with the clout, intellect and charisma who could realistically take on the Tories and win."

So said Dr Peter Slowe, chairman of Labour's finance and industry group, today as he called for MPs to oust Prime Minister Gordon Brown and replace him with the business secretary.

So, does Dr Slowe have anything in common with other New Labour fund raisers and managers in recent times? Dr Slowe is a dab hand at entrepreneurship and . He even wrote a of did he not? Interesting.

Are 0.5% of the population having a bit of a chuckle at the rest's expense Newsnight?

I now have a new definition of a slow news day at Casa Auntie's Westminster navel gazing balcony:

"Mandelson is the only one with the clout, intellect and charisma who could realistically take on the Tories and win."

Yes, it's a Slowe news day! And if you find the necessary words, from the right sources, maybe, just maybe, it might become reaL He might stand a slim chance if he is trained by Futurama's Hypnotoad: But I doubt it even then.

Tonight, our presenter Nick Robinson will be talking to Lord Mandelson about his future plans and his plans for the government and UK businesses.

You might hope for an interview, but a chat I'm sure will suffice. Andrew Marr can offer tips.

And Stephen Sackur reports from Greenland on the effects of climate change.

I really, really hope, there is a small bit of ice he can fight all the other 'reporters' to stand on so the full ironic effect of flying there to report on the 'effects' (if not certain causes) may be fully appreciated by those on camping hols closer to home.

If anyone knows where to start looking for the plot, there are for sure places where it is well and truly lost.

Bless. And unique.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Mandy for PM? LOL.

Could you not think of any real news for tonight's show?

oh no not Robinson again! He's awful

Clout, intellect and charisma? Not the image that springs to mind from quotes such as 'Prince of Darkness', 'member of Blair's Jewish cabal', 'Mr Dome', one-time communist party member, twice forced to resign from Blair's government over shaky deals. Invitee to Bildenberg 'one-world government' exclusive club, and with secrecy rather than openness regarding his lifestyle, seeming to prefer mates with big yachts. Another unelected member who seems to me to be a hard, calculating person who has certainly done well with termination payments through changing posts. This latest suggested move doesn't seem to fit the plan to make government and parliament more open, and with the GBP having more say in who wields the power over us.

Mandleson was found to be a 'benefit cheat' or very close was he not? And didn't he fiddle one of his mortgages? and what was the first thing he got sacked for? Can we be reminded of the details? Yet instead of prison like us 'benefit cheats' out here would/do get, he was given a plum job in Europe with fab expenses? And now someone thinks he should be set up as Prime minister. My God how desperate things have got with labour! The good news is that Esther Ransom is standing as an independent. We need a loose affiliation of independents - one should stand in every constituency as there is no other way to democracy in this voting system. Can we have Esther and other independents on a programme very soon please? Yours truly ex very, totally and definitely ex Labour supporter.
ps How can we get to judge the emails that have been pulled by the moderator.. now that would be revealing in this 'democracy'. Perhaps some computer savy person could set up a special message board for messages banned from the ´óÏó´«Ã½ boards. I have a few censored messages that I can donate

"At present, as an unelected life peer, Lord Mandelson is blocked from taking up some of the most senior government posts, including foreign secretary" ? Have you checked this? What about Lord Carrington who was
Foreign Secretary while in The Lords? Or has the rule changed at last?

JUST HOW PERVERSE CAN POLITICS GET? (#5 and #9)

It is bad enough that shallow-luvvie Blair was the 'face' of Britain abroad for so long, followed by 'I can do a Blair - watch this' world-saver Brown. But that 'words-fail-me' Mandelson, who does not even deign to feign warmth towards mankind, should rise any higher than his current Pantomime Dameness, is in a class of its own. Are we all so numb from beatings, meted out by reality TV, that we no longer SENSE the nature of a man WHO DOES NOT MASK THAT NATURE?

It is soo convenient for politicians to say: "Oh dear, let's mot get into personalities, it is policies that matter." WHAT ABSOLUTE, DEVIOUS TOSH!! When this country puts dodgy, pathetic, deluded, narcissistic, needy - you name them - individuals in positions of power, THE POLICIES WILL SURELY FOLLOW.

And now we have Lord High Mandelson. Weep Britain.

THE WICKED WITCH OF WESTMINSTER

Maybe the New Labour strategists now have A(H1N1) and think that if they push him around departments, he'll hoover up the vile New Labourism/Thatcherism which has been leaked out into Britain over the years. A kind of black-soul reaper which will go then disappear in great puff of badness/corruption.

They'll then say they saved us and try to make Miliband PM.

#10; did you mean Arthur or Rantzen?

This is the beginning of the silly season, remember; in Germany they call it "sour gherkin" time; enter then Mandy, Eminence Grease of British politics. He must really be enjoying all this!

news there could have been

libor rates signal end of credit crunch

no drop in gas prices despite the low price for at least 9 months. they put them up quickly enough and even gave customers a chart of the price. will they give customers the same chart now showing what has happened to the price and explainign why prices are not coming down?

the battle in afghanistan is for...the hearts and minds in the UK!
The uk public have no will to 'pay the blood price' to win others peoples ideological liberal interventionist loonatic adventure. For the neocon there is no end to 'the war'. War for them is eternal. No price is 'too high'. Death or glory.

why did the guardian not publish the names of journalists accused of criminality?

given the banking industry is a nationalised industry until the public debts that keep the banks and financial sector in existence are paid off why is there not a super tax on financial profits? without the public there would be no profit. time for them to pay the piper?

The essential good of the Old (Webbian) Labour Party was to nationalise the means of production and communication whilst providing a welfare state, safety net for the less able/those in times of trouble, whilst encouraging a sense of mutual duty so that people regarded it as shameful to ever sponge off others i.e to steal from the state. This was the German National Socialist, Stalinist Socialism in One Country, and PRC model too.

What has New Labour got in common with any of that? Labour was hijacked, just as The Conservatives were. The statistics tell by whom and to what end.

Good to see a Tory leaning type presenting newsnight...when you consider the amount of lefties at the ´óÏó´«Ã½. Seriously, this Nick fella should be a regular feature on NN. I would like to comment on Mandelson but it won't get passed the mod...but i will say this. I can't wait for the day when he is dragged out of the Lords - screaming - and thrown from the nearest bridge...i'll be selling the tickets, will have to erect screens, it will be a sell out!

Mandelson: "Score your point."

No mate, for us ordinary voters it is not about point scoring - it's about families who are suffering, and the useless Brown/NuLabour headline posturing designed instead for the benefit of the politicians. Thanks for proving why you, Brown and NuLabour shouldn't continue in government, though with most MPs determined to keep troughing I don't have much enthusiasm for any of them. Is that part of your master plan to try for re-election?

"And Stephen Sackur reports from Greenland on the effects of climate change."

Why?

Does the ´óÏó´«Ã½ think THIS, finally, will persuade the British people (or the handful watching "Newsnight") to ditch their wicked ways - otherwise known as getting on with their lives - and bow down to the god of 'Combating Climate Change'? Or is this aimed at an American audience, via '´óÏó´«Ã½ World'?

Dear Lord, when will this insanity ever end; it really has gone beyond parody?

"Now, when we think of Greenland, we think of climate change - melting glaciers..."

Maybe in your, obviously empty, mind, Mr Robinson, but not in my mine.

As stated about Greenland huskies: "Unwanted dogs are dispatched with a bullet to the head."
Hmm, that phrase sounds somewhat Stalinist to me, If so, I wonder if any Whips have that as a poster somewhere?
By way of contrast, unwanted MPs standing down will have their pockets full. And some may be elevated to the Lords - bait I'm sure that will help the NuLabour Whips.

(Elevated is the traditional term but surely shuffling more compliant troughers from the HoC to the HoL will simply cause many to regard greater honours as equivalent to greater corruption?)

Maybe

Nick Robinson asked Mandelson questions in English and Madelson wanted to answer them in his language. What was that language? Was it Mandelsonian? I recognized some of the gestures but I couldn't make any sense of the language itself. It sounded very much like English, but devoid of any content or logic. It was full of counterfacuals and other stuff idioms of the evil-dooers. Is this why Britain isn't producing anything anymore and is just a nation of 'service people'. Do all businesses wanting bank loans have to speak Mandelsonian? Seems like a Catch 22 if they do.

Greenland was called Greenland for a reason. I think its about time we put this climate change debate to bed once and for all.

(take a deep breath before you read the following as all you believe and heard on climate change is all going to be shattered ..then you can get on with your life not feeling guilty everytime you make a cup of tea or drive your car, and you will have me to thank for this new sense of freedom ..ready, read on)

Climate change is caused by that big bright thing in the sky...the sun!

CATHARTIC POSTING MY FELLOW POSTERS - THANK YOU.

I hope even his detractors will give Nick his due - he caused Mandy to 'dry'! I guess he had studied the Marr fiasco (sorry Andrew) and was ready for: "Score your point" ("I, Lord High Mandy, give you permission", with a dismissive flap.)

But did you spot the furrowed brow? Even when the Mandy visage is at complacent rest, the brow is PERMANENTLY SUPERCILIOUS. What speaks volumes, can't lie. Oh Mandy, you came and you started me crying. And I need you to go. Oh Mandy!

Weep Labour voters.

Hi,

perhaps a new position could be created which was above PM

Duplicitous? Mandelson? .....whats new?

I have a question about the 'Big Cat' item at the end of tonights programme.
A few years ago there was a report in my local press about a 'panther' 'attacking' someone and apparently the 'beast' used the nearby railway tracks to move about.
Any suggestions where I could find a copy of the video presented on Newsnight tonight?

Please can the ´óÏó´«Ã½/Newsnight employ people who can understand numbers/percentages. Nick Robinson once again proved his populist ignorance of basic mathematics in his item about the weather. I cringed.

Most of the population of Europe who have finished secondary school (GCSEs C or above / O levels or equivalent) have no problem understanding probabilities and percentages. Not so in the UK. Apparently presenters of the most high-brow current affairs programme can be paid to 'act stoopid' - reflecting their commissioning editors' IQ, no doubt.

That most of the political class 'claim' such ignorance is no excuse for their interrogators to display it. Sack this man. He has no place on Newsnight. Murdoch material.

DerekPhibes (#20) "As stated about Greenland huskies: "Unwanted dogs are dispatched with a bullet to the head."
Hmm, that phrase sounds somewhat Stalinist to me,"

Omly because you have been thorouhly indoctrinated/conditioned over the years by Trotskyites/Anarchists/Neocons/Free-Marketeers to be anti social.

Why do you think we have such a high prevalence of narcissism/me2ism/ASBOs? It's good for the retail sector etc.

Woo owns this/profits most from this etc? Just go by representative statistics, nothing else required, to see what the current mess is all really all a functin of and how even minor remarks like that help to oil its venal wheels.

Nos 18

Mandelson: "Score your point."

Yes, just dismissive. Thousands of people struggling and his reply :

"Score your point"

Peoples lives in his mind are about scoring points.

The banks who's behaviour (which was allowed-even encouraged by lack of regulation via Mandelsons boss) brought us debt hell on earth now decide to act responsibly and not lend to risky business - everyone.

Talk of language use - *cuts* and what not are a meaningless wast of time.

There is no way that Mandelson will be PM things are too far gone for the labour party now. We just have to sit and watch hydrazine powered delusional Brown run around like a blue bottle before we get to swot the cause of our pain out of existance.

The problem now is what *Dave* will do ?

Hi,

question, when was the last time someone from Newsnight responded to any of the comments or opinions expressed here?

best wishes

Nos 30

They almost never do, Ive seen Paul Mason make a reply once. Its extremely unlikely being as this place is frequented by the extreme right (of which I am absolutely not a part of ) I'd say, no way will people in NN wish to associate with some of the folks here.

PLAYING THE MAN BECAUSE THE MAN IS THE PROBLEM

Now we have typified Mandelson, let's have a look at Miliband D. Having contributed nothing measurable to planet-saving (that is now in the hands of Limited Ed - his equally talented brother) Miliband D is now in charge of assymetrical warfare (rich nations hammering destitute ones).

For Afghanistan, he has a plan - let's call it a 'road map', even though they cannot afford roads. To quote Radio 4: "Mr Miliband said they needed to persuade more Taliban fighters to switch sides." NOW WHY DID CHURCHILL NOT THINK OF THAT? WWII would have been over by Christmas.

Well Mr Miliband: I have the answer to alcohol and drug abuse, obesity, knife and gun crime, and failing schools; it is all a matter of persuading those in error to 'switch sides'. At a stroke! DO WE PAY THIS MAN?

Why not send the Great Communicator - Anthony Lynton Blair - to Afghanistan. He solved Ireland, just by smiling; no one seemed to change sides. (I am not hoping he will get shot - you have my word - and I am a pretty straight kind of guy.) I understand he is fresh from solving the Middle East 'challenge' so should be ready for the next trifling task.

Weep - anybody - just weep.

sad isn't it? That we are led by such cretins, pass me the sick bag, Alice

30

most don't read it. which is why gavin used to put stuff up he claimed was new that had been on the blogs about 2 weeks before.

the blogs are there so people can harmlessly rant.

31. At 10:59am on 29 Jul 2009, streetphotobeing wrote:
No 30
They almost never do, Ive seen Paul Mason make a reply once. Its extremely unlikely being as this place is frequented by the extreme right (of which I am absolutely not a part of ) I'd say, no way will people in NN wish to associate with some of the folks here.

Be a shame if government operated in this way: you don't fancy dealing with folk with viewpoints you don't share so you... just don't. Seems a tad contrary to democratic process and free speech, mind. Though by way of devil's advocacy it seems Mr. Miliband is prepared to 'associate' with the Taliban. Just, not too closely, in person, as such. Better than certain reactions applied with some recently elected MEPs, but there you go. Kill or cure by means of multiple standards.

But also pretty much what is indeed happening in certain media quarters, sadly.

Not big on directional 'wingist' allusions, especially when it's down to matters of fact and/or objectivity. Often colours the debate (red... blue... green.. pink?) in ways that at best seems to offer some succour, or at worst indeed offer get-out opportunities (at least in their rather tribalist heads). 'You, you... not-me-er! I'm off!' Doesn't seem to 'work' usually. At least on the persuasion of those still capable of independent thought and even less likely to be engaged by trivial, usually inaccurate and often weakly insulting attmepts at labelling or ad homs.

Still seems OK if you retreat to some comfort zones to do it and if you own, well, control the ball and pitch and referee's salary it might yet still work out... for now.

Interesting that the appellation 'right' might suggest those who initiate narratives or interpret events - with the benefit of £3.5B and for the 'benefit' of the 60M who fund that - might want to only associate with those whose views they share. And hence lurk in another 'zone'. What might that be, objectively, Charter-wise?

Unique.

Me, I just like the facts, well-told, and then try and make my own mind up. If I think the facts are wrong, or an opinion needs to be challenged, as I am co-funding the venue I'll say so. And if the thing is billed as an exchange of views I reckon a reply is only polite. If only in defence. Otherwise I tend to view things as talking at rather than with. And then we part company. Bar the monthly DD I am still required to font up of course.

Odd way to run things. And some are not only noticing, but speaking out.

Sorry if the solution in various places is to avoid associating with the responsibilities and/or accountabilities whilst still seeking to enjoy the...considerable benefits. And not only the elevated soapbox opportunity.

Truly unique. I wish I could run my business, and its relations with those it serves, in this way.

If you ever get taken hostage pretend you are french. They get their people out. The FO will leave you to rot.

War on Neocons.

last year 5000 British military wounded claimed compo. this year it's going to be more. How long can the british military withstand wounded at those rates?

NEWSNIGHT - THE OPIATE OF THE PEOPLE (#34)

"Mostly harmless."

Sad but true, bookhim. I have been known to refer to "shouting in a bucket".

The futility of this exercise can be gauged against the million who protested, impotently, against Tony's War (gifted to him by IDS). All are equally democratically enfranchised, but some are more democratically enfranchised than others. I feel sure this iniquity is high on Mandy's agenda for his 'New British Century'.

33 "pass me the sick bag".
I once said that when billy bragg made an appearence...he made some stupid speech about Churchill, God! that was an hard days work.

@27 RE Nick Robinson
"Sack this man. He has no place on Newsnight. Murdoch materiale"

no nO NO!! Nick Robo is the only Tory leaner the ´óÏó´«Ã½ have. Have him on Newsnight until the next general election...anything that rankles the lefty wefties can only be a good thing.

I would like to point out i wont be voting for the Tories at the next general election on account they have no real talent or heavyweights (there are a few exceptions - Nicholas Soames for example, oh look! another 'Nick') but compared to Labour...the Tories are like Manchester City FC ...Massive:)

#30 Bubble Gum Triffid

Last October a NN producer/ researcher phoned me up. They didn't want to hear my side. Having their own opinion they started telling me I was wrong. As they had no listened to what I said, I tried to explain that I hadn't meant that.

They threw a rude and abusive hissy fit. "oh if you don't want to listen to me telling you why you are wrong I don't want to speak to you".

Then slammed the phone down.

As it happened the information proved correct and the NN researchers opinion was wrong.

NN may have a very narrow agenda, more related to the views of it's own staff and their contacts, rather than providing an objective overview encompassing multiple perspectives.

Newsnight itself may be a misnomer. What is presented is not new and it is not general news. There appears to be a strong term of reference to established politics. By that I mean as long as it is referenced to a traditional perspective, whether tory, labour, lib dem, green, bnp or whatever. As Gurubear pointed out in Norwich 54% didn't vote.

NN belongs to John Major's world of cricket on the village green, a pint of beer on the way home at a country pub, before settling down to a cosy NN. Nothing challenging. reassuringly traditional and bland.

Purnell gave the game away. The questions were prearranged.

NN should be considered more an established private members club. And if your names not on the list, your not getting in.



NN is just cheap to produce light entertainment. That involves regulars from the researchers mobile phone. Give the public what they are used to. If they are getting the viewing figures, why change?

On Mandelson he failed to address how the Labour plane is hurtling to destruction on the ground so a change of direction is needed. "Working even harder" shows how sterile thinking within the Labour is. The catalogue of unpopular disasters that has exposed the New Labour froth as devoid of serious content does not repeating. Yet citing Blair as the EU President candidate shows how very badly they are out of touch.

Perhaps it is all like waiting to see if/when Stalin/Brown is really dead (politically) and the bureaucrats are still nervously checking before deciding on any new course of direction.

#37 barriesingelton

"All are equally democratically enfranchised, but some are more democratically enfranchised than others."

When people who adhere to national Socialist ideals - hence they are not democrats at all - talk of democratic rights you know they are just trying to sow seeds of mistrust.

Yet you think highly of Hitler and the BNP are "not a Nazi party" as one spokesman said. They are a "modern and progressive party".

#32 barriesingleton

"He solved Ireland, just by smiling; no one seemed to change sides."

The BNP appear to have changed sides - to the naive - as they used images of Churchill and a Spitfire on their literature.

Yet BNP posters who pollute this page often talk of race "realism", eugenics, euthanasia, planned economies, reverence for Hitler and agnosticism on the Holocaust.

Meanwhile in Belfast recently some misguided youths are induced to attack a Romany woman. All utterly illogical and hideous as is the persistent hatred of Jews expressed on this page regularly that far right "intellectuals" relate to Stalins ejection of "anarchists and Trotskyites" in the thirties.

Apparently the Jewish Communist International run everything.

Can you trust the far right? Von Bruun, American Friend of the BNP, who shot dead a security guard at a US Holocaust Memorial and has a conviction for trying to kidnap a US Federal Bank member (Jews run the economy) is not really that different in his views to those posters who pollute this page regularly.

#28 Jaded_Jean

"
Omly because you have been thorouhly indoctrinated/conditioned over the years by Trotskyites/Anarchists/Neocons/Free-Marketeers to be anti social."

In most peoples world democracy allows people to choose freely and intellectual development allows free thought. You would inhibit from some women as they should "be at home" incidentally.

Shooting a dog in the head is not really Stalinist. But I can see how the use of violence attracts you as dark, amoral, extreme and simplistic solutions via a bullet to a social problem reflect your reverence for Hitler.

Yet you are unable to express any genuine understanding of why you would hate Jews - you usually come to a grinding halt around the time of "Jewish Communist International" and then go into denial. Sometimes you try to assert that Stalin ejected "anarchists and Trotskyites" in the thirties. Some of whom were Jewish. Some of whom were blue eyed and some of whom were brown haired.

The SS Officer shown in "Auschwitz and the Final Solution" tried vainly to connect allegations of crooked Jewish grocers in Berlin with his execution of Russian Jews.

Your race "realism" is just babble that fails to grasp the science expressed in the "Incredible Human Journey". We are all related and genetic variation is greater within a race than between races. Therefore racial comparisons are ridiculous.

But then the far right expressed in the BNP London Assembly Member do not rely on truth. He is currently having to explain three local murders - that never happened.

On torture and renditions in the War on Terror is there now not credible evidence whether or not the torture actually was effective from released documents or sources?

It seems to me almost as worrying that professionals could torture a man for four years and then decide he was innocent as the fact that its legality was highly questionable.

It is assumed that those who left Guantanamo and went off to fight in Afghanistan were already al Qaeda. Could some have been pushed towards it by misguided officials - with a very difficult task it must be said.

After suffering the delirious lurgy for a week and some, I find myself with a raging ear infection. So I make another appointment to see the Doc. I'm sitting here feeling as if I want to scratch my ear right off looking at the appointment card, on the back and just below the appointments table it says:

"Facing repossession
or in arrears?

We will buy your
house for CASH!

Decision within
24 HOURS
no fees & free legal fees
Contact us free on"

Gordon Brown's world - everyone

I think that Mandy is probably more disliked than Balls. But if the party feel that way it might be an own goal, so bring it on. So far his track record is very mixed, he is all talk and not strong on delivery. He is a very negative, cold, and unpleasant character, can't say I see the charisma. We need to have a parliment in the future who can engage with the man in the street, and who truely serve the electorate. Something tells me that Mandy is not interested in our needs. He has too big an ego to have room for anything else.

thegangofone (#43) Like many others here I have tried to have a rational discussion with you, but it's proven impossible, as all you wish to do is abuse people. There is a class of convicted criminal which behaves in this way towards sex offenders both outside and in prison. They seem to think that it's OK to displace their hatred and resentment onto this group, abusing and sometimes assaulting them both unjustly and certainly illegally. Part of what you do here akin to that. Part has some obscure political motive which appears to be out of place in a blog like this. Some of us here would like to rationally discuss politics and economics etc, but you don't appear to be have the ability to do that. It is very difficult for me to believe that you have genuine, justly awarded, Higher Education qualifications.

AND THE LORDS VOTED DOWN ASSISTED SUICIDE (#45)

Counterintuitive for a group with a high fogie content? Not if they have shares in the care-home industry! Cue JJ. (:o)

ADDITIONAL TO #48



FOUND WANTING

Though you've run your allotted span,
No more attuned to Nature's plan;
Un-free to breathe that last - last - breath,
You're gathered up and stored to death.

The mattress' breath exhales, then draws,
You've no dominion over yours.
Certification - always late,
You're safely stored - till signing date.

With quality of mercy strained
Your quality of life quite drained;
Conception was not your idea
But till reversed - you're stored in here.

You are a spider in the bath
Those unscaled sides up-scale your wrath!
With no recourse to mythic thread,
Trapped - driven mad - stored off your head.

Like criminal or feral cur,
To food and hygiene you'll defer.
Release forstalled - in purgatory;
Living slow death; stored - till you die.

Hi,

thanks for the comments re 30, the blogs do seem like some sort of 'twilight zone' where comments are not listened to by the blogmeisters -pity,
but isn't this a bit like Government. do they want to listen, or when they say they are listening, is it not just another device to get us to switch on again?
why do many politicians have the need to tell others what to do but not to really listen to the viewss of others?
perhaps this is part of the problem, their problem becomes our problem?

Newsnight! having started this brave experiment I feel you are really missing a trick by not responding to those leaving postings,
perhaps its only the 'important' people whose view count for anything in media-land?, except that we the ...Hoi polloi, the great unwashed are the important people !!!!, your guests may not be quite as important as you might think they are,

from BubblegumTriffid, one of the Hoi polloi, and very proud of it indeed !!, unwashed rabble rouser living somewhere in the Home Counties, (perhaps)

(Ancient Greek: ), an expression meaning "the many" in Greek, is used in English to denote "the masses" or "the people", usually in a derogatory sense. Synonyms for "hoi polloi" include "...commoners, great unwashed, minions, multitude, plebeians, proletariat, rabble, rank and file, riffraff, the common people, the herd, the many, the masses, the plebs, the peons, the working class".[1]

Just to say how much I have enjoyed Nick Robinson on newsnight these last couple of nights. Yesterday's programme was an excellent balance - interview with mandleson, followed by two quality reports from Michael Crick and Steven Sackur, followed by a light hearted item about the weather.

Regarding my post #20, quoted below, and post #28 from JadedJean:-
As stated about Greenland huskies: "Unwanted dogs are dispatched with a bullet to the head."
Hmm, that phrase sounds somewhat Stalinist to me,

Why does that phrase sound somewhat Stalinist to me? Well, just google for the combination of "NKVD" and "back of the head" and look at some of the results.

Clearly I'm not saying the Innuit are Stalinist - they appear to me to be following the hard practicalities of living close to the land as humanely as they can. I am saying that the method of killing with a bullet to the back of the head is associated with Stalin's regime as surely as mass killing using gas chambers is associated with the Nazis. It is my view that those who appear to have a problem recognising this are probably the ones who are 'indoctrinated' and/or pushing an agenda - and from my understanding of your hints and allusions that means you JadedJean.

Of course, I might misunderstand you simply because you deal in dismissive hints. If you have any truly profound views on Stalin and/or Hitler, and their policies and methods would it not be better to state them explicitly, and with web links to support your views or facts?

Broadly, my view is that I see usefulness for both command structures and the free market in our society, but that they should serve and be constrained by explicit laws and ethics and not by political or ideological monsters acting out their own prejudices. Regardless of how statistically necessary or effective it may present itself to be, how would you feel about being on the wrong end of this sort of state institution?
"The emergent picture is one of a rigidly disciplined command structure with a fairly predictable system of punishments and rewards. This system furnished NKVD officers with both ideological and practical justifications for a daily modus operandi of generating psychological terror among the people they encountered as well as being prepared to carry out systematic violence against those people."

From .

bubblegumTriffid (#50) "..the blogs do seem like some sort of 'twilight zone' where comments are not listened to by the blogmeisters -pity, but isn't this a bit like Government."

It's exactly like Government. In Governemnt people do lots of work and aren't personally credited. That's just the way it works. Government is the Civil Service, not the luvies parading around as narcissistic politicians, most of whom would be better in the media business proper.

DerekPhibes (#52) "Why does that phrase sound somewhat Stalinist to me? Well, just google for the combination of "NKVD" and "back of the head" and look at some of the results."

It's clear from the way you write that you're just another person who has uncritically swallowed all the propaganda they've been fed for decades. The Chinese still shoot people in the back of the head. Why didn't you use the PRC as an example?

Gas chambers, GULAGs, evil-doing socialists the lot of them eh? Wake up. You've been fed a perspective to make sure you keep voting free-market liberal-democracy. You just don't know it. I've provided no end of material on this. Look it up in the archive and try not to take the moral high ground. The current system stinks far worse than anything the German National Socialist or Soviet Socialism In One Country system ever did. The USA locked up (and probably executed) more people than the USSR.

Try to remember where you live and that you're not as free to think what you like as you like to think you are.

#54 JJ

It's a bit like we were fed lies/propaganda about it being a 'barbecue summer' this year in the UK...just to keep the plebs at home to spend their money here.

Now we know summer's a washout...I just booked me hols in Spain!

JadedJean #54
Gas chambers, GULAGs, evil-doing socialists the lot of them eh?

As Hitler's and Stalin's regimes systematically imprisoned, tortured, transported, enslaved and killed many, many harmless people that is indeed pretty much how I think of them. Clearly I am communicating my viewpoint and core values to you because I am not relying upon hints.

Your dismissive tone and description of me as 'indoctrinated' is clearly meant to put down my stated viewpoint, and the irony of your using the propaganda technique of belittling those who do not agree with you by calling them 'indoctrinated' is not lost on me. However, I would still rather live under our rather frail wage-slave democracy (even corrupted as it has become under professional politicians) than those controlling and deadly regimes exactly because of the way I compare them, and you cannot convince me otherwise with insults.

JadedJean (again)
The current system stinks far worse than anything the German National Socialist or Soviet Socialism In One Country system ever did.

Thanks for finally explicitly stating which regime you think is worse.
Now, without the distraction technique of instructing people to trawl through your multitude of hint-ridden posts, just explicitly state why you think life in our current western democracies is so much worse than life under Hitler or Stalin.

DerekPhibes (#56) "As Hitler's and Stalin's regimes systematically imprisoned, tortured, transported, enslaved and killed many, many harmless people that is indeed pretty much how I think of them."

Did the have any law breakers/subversives in Germany and the USSR do you think? The people who were locked up and executed, did any of them do anything wrong, or were they all just randomly picked on and thrown in the prison for the fun of it do you think?

Do you not ask any critical questions? Do you expect evrything to be spelled out for you? What if some of it requires you to think a bit? I think you are very naive.

"Clearly I am communicating my viewpoint and core values to you because I am not relying upon hints."

No, sadly, you're just repeating what you have been told for political purposes. Do you not see how you are (with some truth no doubt but perhaps not much) in order to make you love free-market liberal-demoracy and hate socialism (even Old Labour)? This makes some people a lot of money...

"Your dismissive tone and description of me as 'indoctrinated' is clearly meant to put down my stated viewpoint,"

It's supposed to educate you as to how grown ups behave politically.

As the great philosopher Harrius Hillus once said: "Fight"

JadedJean #57
There are a few problems with your claim of trying to educate.

The tactic you use of deliberately conflating the punishment of criminals with the mass killing of harmless people is obviously manipulative, and reveals quite a bit about your attitudes to people.

It is hardly surprising then that you claim to know my mind and formative influences in order to dismiss them, yet at the same time you will not be open about your own thinking. Just to emphasise your evasiveness I'll pose the question again.

Now, without the distraction technique of instructing people to trawl through your multitude of hint-ridden posts, just explicitly state why you think life in our current western democracies is so much worse than life under Hitler or Stalin.

DerekPhibes (#59) "It is hardly surprising then that you claim to know my mind and formative influences in order to dismiss them"

Rest assured, I am not at all interested in your 'mind', just the sentences which you post to the blog, most of which are false.

As to your question, if you're at all interested in learning anything, you're going to have to do some work and look back through the blog archive. For a hint, a TFR of 1.8 is not evidence of a fit society, and this figure is even lower for other Liberal-Democracies and especially low for those countries 'liberated' since 1989.

Let that sink in for a start.

JadedJean #60

Score: 1%
Sadly, for an 'educator', you did not address the question posed.
One mark awarded for signing-in with the correct id (getting your name right).