´óÏó´«Ã½

the conservative party are very educational... I went to one of their party political rally's and I thought....well, that's taught me a lesson!

DOES CLASSY EDUCATION REALLY MAKE ANY ODDS?

Since my brother had a terminal stroke, I have had to 'deal' with a wide range of 'professional' and administrative people, from solicitors through accountants to Inland Revenue and Building Society. I have met SO MUCH INCOMPETENCE that I feel empowered to generalise that any magnificently educated young person will go MAD working under these - already in-post - bozos. We must pray their brilliance is an illusion.

I make no apology for returning to the FACT that Westminster comprises a bunch of alcohol-lubricated, unqualified (except in politics and law) inept, time-servers. Is it any wonder the rest of society's administration is of the same ilk? And unless it has improved, since I left, much of industry and commerce is the same.

Oh - it's all going awfully well.

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#2

I would agree with you, singie, that having a degree, including professorship, is a passport to claims of intelligence and definitely not to humanity.

mim

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NICK'LL FIX YOU (BUT NICK CAN'T FIX IT).

One chap asked Nick which law was broken by his 'illegal war'. Nick couldn't quite seem to fix his mind on that and no answer came - just waffle.

Another chap asked about robbing the poor; Nick fixed HIS hash with a righteous crescendo. What a politician.

WE HAVE GOT ANOTHER ONE.

EDUCATION - DAMNED EDUCATION and A*EDUCATION?

I hear that, to get an A*, it is necessary to answer questions that require APPLICATION - above and beyond rote. Well that may be so. But if applying oneself, is just another pavlovian school-instilled conditioned-response to exams, out in the real world these super-intellectuals will regress to the mean, becoming one with our mean society.

If we must school our kids - and not have them end up as dumb as fish - let's school them in awareness, philosophy AND THE KNOWLEDGE THAT THE INSTITUTION OF SCHOOL CAN SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH. Perhaps that could be condensed to 'CONFORMITY IS FREEDOM' on an arched entry to all Academies, with the kids taught irony on day one?

If we can school without institutionalising, educate without indoctrinating, and instil wisdom before cleverness, I suggest many more viable adults will emerge, with a positive effect on all the measures of wellbeing in society, currently being tackled with tinkering.

Obama's days are numbered....

Yes, I totally agree with you Newsnight! Britain is getting brighter at exactly the same rate that it is getting richer:



"The critical faculties of the British have been severely blunted over the years. They give the impression that they are heavily sedated on debt, booze and football."

Unfortunately, the more we try and measure, the better some folk get at stretching the measuring stick! Peter Warburton correctly laments the loss of a stable numeraire:

Heard an interesting little story today. A group of really able physics students at a local private school (all A*) were taking some entrance test for Cambridge. They struggled. I asked my friend who had been observing them, what the problem was. He said that they complained that the questions were weird. It was about things they hadn't done in their lessons. My friend said the trouble was they had to think outside the box. And they couldn't!

VERY CONFUSED EGG SEEKS CORRECT FACE (#9 link)

What is it about oratory that degrades thought processes?

Obama instructed one and all 'not to question 9/11' - it happened, accept the impossible. Now he wants to 'move on' even before the death toll is complete, by embracing the 'passive arm' of true Islaam whose extremists stand accused - but not convicted. WHOSE FACE WILL GET THE EGG ON IT? It sounds like another frightful Noel Edmonds 'entertainment'.

RICHARD FEYNMAN IDENTIFIED THE SAME THING (#11)

In one of the Feynman books (such a delight to read) Feynman took a class, and was quizzing them on work he knew they had done. However, being Feynman, he asked relevant questions but couched in his own terms (i.e. not matching, precisely, the teaching). The pupils were stumped - they found the questions weird. Feynman remarked, in his immortal manner: "Jeeze - these guys DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY KNOW!"

That should be chiselled on Education's tomb stone. All we get now is schooling - or will the A* bumper harvest prove me wrong?

Let us go back to awarding grades by % of those in the group who sat the exam as it was when I did A levels. Then if you got an A you knew you were part of the top 3% and so on for the grades below. The present system of marking is just silly. It fails its main purpose of finding the best to help University selection. By all means give the mark too, but the grade should be % band NOT the present daft system that was created by woolly minded politicians.

"So why, after Labour poured billions of pounds of taxpayers' cash into schools over the last 13 years does such a divide persist?"

Evilness!

I've heard that some people (psychologists I think) say that cleverness is almost entirely inherited and that all that's been happening is that we've been letting 50% of the population do A levels instead of 15% as was the case about 30 or 40 years back. Pretty dumb if true. Seems the international tests indicate that Britain is lagging not leading too.

Having said that, some people claim that Earth may not be at the centre of the solar system too. They are called physicists - but what do they know? It's obvious that the Earth is at the centre of the solar system isn't it? Sun rises in the East and Sets in the West, you can see it with your own eyes!

Me @ 3
'This comment has been referred for further consideration'

Has it, has it really!

The ground zero mosque story.
I was wondering when this story was gonna get a mention because over there its been getting banged on about every night and for months. I'm glad someone at the beeb has finally picked up on this story because its massive. Did you know in Manhattan there is already over 100 Mosques, apparently though...the Muslims need another one and only two blocks from ground zero. Its going to be called the Victory mosque, (i kid you not) which is not an uncommon name for these places of worship.
The smooth talking Chicago lawyer turned marionette telepromter prezzie Obama has opened up an avalanche of genuine dismay from the yanks. His speech a few nights ago has caused consternation like no other presidential speech. He did his usual backtrack when questioned about his comments. Not a smart bunny this President, especially considering a record low approval rating in living memory whilst in mid term. Funny how some think this man walks on water though...maybe they don't do their research or something or other. I never really bought into the hype about the man. I just checked who funded his campaign and discovered he's just another selected President from the usual corporate
names, Goldman Sachs etc but the spin from the media was it was grass roots support via $20internet donations..when it really wasn't.

Whose this Laura woman. Is the rumours about Paxman leaving the beeb true then?

I am no great supporter of Ed Balls but i do believe he should be allowed to answer any question posed. Unfortunately your presenter Laura Kuenssberg seemed more interested in her own agenda than listening to his answers to the question she posed.She should stop interuppting the very people she is questioning i think she is more interested in Laura Kuenssberg than newsnight.

I have just watched Laura's interview of Ed Balls and I was appalled by her inability to allow him to answer her questions without continual interruption. I was interested in his opinion of the situation and was left without knowing it. Her attempt to reduce the whole complex argument to simple statements without serious analysis was incredibly irritating and did her no favours. She was unnecessarily aggressive and cvonfrontational and I was impressed by Mr Ball's restraint.

Its trite but how many Christian churces have being built recently in Muslim lands?

I did wonder how long it would be for the white supremacist and racist card to get pulled out...didn't take long did it eh! even if its a tired old line that has no real effect anymore. They still give it an airing though don't they.

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I think I would agree with John #14 in that I can't believe children per se are getting cleverer. Perhaps the 'problem' is one of better training to pass exams, something that the private schools are expert at doing and they have the resources to coach in a more intense way than state schools could. It is unfair to the pupils that they are faced with this constant carping about their achievements simply because we mark them in a certain way.

The presenter tonight Laura Kuenssberg,is very aggressive with her questions,full of her own importance and her tone of voice is very sharp and annoying,this approach will put many viewers off,We thought Jeremy Paxman was a Rottweiler but Laura is 10 time worse

Why did the government not have anyone on tonights show - were they frightened that thier policies would actually be examined. I think not. It has become clear over the past few weeks that newsnight will not critically examine the new governements polices it will follow the government mantra - 'blame the labour party' and what would they have done.

Please return to your old values and examine and question. If the governement could not put someone up tonight - what were they frightened of?

Unlike hoipoloi, I am in favour of presenters (particularly those on Newsnight) taking a firm line with political interviewees, ensuring that they are not allowed to simply spew forth their message, as instructed by their media coach. So I must congratulate Laura K on her astute handling of Ed Balls. Frontline (even ex-frontline) politicians are used to speaking over those who seek to get to the truth, so I am always more comfortable watching these encounters when there's a firm hand on the tiller. Perhaps she should be given more presenting gigs, as I think she makes an excellent addition to an already impressive lineup... under the supreme command of JP, of course.

Laura Kuenssberg has projected a most formidable but intrusive form of presenting. Her inability to listen to responses and allow serious comment has affected our ability as viewers to receive a balanced debate. Laura has proved a most notable presenter on Live presentations, but her ability to facilitate discussion is frustrating, inappropriate and downright ignorant and rude. As a viewer I was totally frustrated by being unable to hear a full answer from any interviewee, both the Ed Balls interview and the New York mosque debate. Laura's interviewees obviously need a training course on how to handle Laura, not necessarily on how to respond to the key issues being presented.

A new presenter I have not seen before! Although I had my back to the TV at the time, I was immediately struck by her aggressive manner and her apparent fondness for interrupting her interviewees. This is not helped by her having what seems to me to be a rather strident and broad Northern Island accent. Her pronounced facial expressions are also not appropriate for this programme.

Me at 16.
No swearing.
no untruths
but you pulled it.
And i was only joking about Paxman leaving the Beeb.
Surely to god it wasn't the comment about the Mosque.

Manhatten already has over 100 Mosques...can i squeeze that factoid in mod.

Moderator, are you having a bad week?..tell me about it.

DREAM MEETS NIGHTMARE

Raw ambition interviewing raw ambition. Laura trying to prove she is can do it (by overdoing it) and Ed - as usual - just proving black is white.

Unfortunately we are stuck with the Balls nightmare, in one guise or other. Laura - of course - is only a dream.

I have just registered for the first time to make a comment about the aggressive, strident and confrontational manner of tonight's newsnight presenter only to find that all my thoughts had already been posted. Not an asset to the programme I fear

Fantastic interview by Laura Kuenssberg with Brad Blakeman and the guy from the American-Islamic centre. Blakeman rightly pointed out that Ground Zero is indeed a sacred place and should not have a Mosque built on it. Also interesting to note that 68% of Americans are AGAINST a mosque being built on the Ground Zero site too - and that conducted by CNN! Laura is an excellent journalist and she's already won a Royal Television Society award too, and she is also the Chief Political Correspondant for the ´óÏó´«Ã½.
:p Balls by name, balls by nature. Nuff said ;)

Laura K reminded me of Emily Maitlis on her first appearance on Newsnight: a fixed determination to make her mark with incisive questioning. I think they both modelled themselves on Jeremy - and then some. Give the girl a chance (and a bit of voice coaching). It can't be easy to sit there for the first time. She'll learn in time to depart from her planned questions and react to the actual interview situation.

But I don't ever remember seeing Ed Balls so unable to get a word in edgeways. This has to be a plus.

THe presenter tonight, Laura, I'm sorry that was the worst interviewer/presenter that I have witnessed on either UK or American TV, and as I include American TV that is realy back. Hurry up and finish your holiday Paxman.

Modelling oneself on Paxo:

The Newsnight girls are not the only ones -



It looks like Jeremy has more and more 'apprentices'.

mim

Talking of Paxo, the other day I posted a link containing his interview with the Jubilee Magazine where he said that although he does get occasionally tempted by the idea of becoming a politician he then 'sobers up' and decides against it.

I've just read that a very well known Polish journalist had an offer from the new Polish President, Bronislaw Komorowski, to join the Government that is currently being formed but on reflection she decided that it's much better to keep an eye on politicians as a journalist rather than joining them.

By the way, although I'm not a politician my previous hands on involvement with the Putney Tories does seem to have provoked for me to have been caught up in the whirl wind of history and I'm not sure whether to cry or be happy about it.

mim

#35 addendum

And to think that married blokes in high positions, like politicians, international interpreters, academics or brain surgeons with jobs and their own houses are so keen to promote themselves through a 5 foot 4 immigre from Poland with not much to show for herself but her 'talents', if I dare to call them that.

Monika

#33

Here, here, Moonraker, although I have never seen or listened to Laura so am not prepared to slugg her off, whatever the reason for her putting an appearance on NN tonight.

mim

A few years ago I went to a meeting for teachers about a new A level Syllabus in Chemistry. Some teachers were not interested in the content and whether it might also be a stepping stone for further study. No, they wondered what questions might be set.

50 years ago when I was about to go to secondary school, the headmaster told the parents that the school was very good at helping pupils through the Oxbridge entrance process, but they shouldn't be impressed that over half went there. What should impress them was the number of firsts and upper seconds they got three years later and what success they had beyond that. You can judge a school's success five years after the pupil left, not on the basis of exam results.

With all this instantly measured success, how much is translated into success in the future? Is one of the problems with the country that it judges its education system on the easily measurable at each stage and not on the overall result?

ed ballsup on nn why? any nulabour pratt prattling on nn why?

nn u owe me a new telly, the unclean Boot has gone threw it

"Is one of the problems with the country that it judges its education system on the easily measurable at each stage and not on the overall result"

No, it really has got to be an increase in national stupidity given that a very clear explanation for why things are the way they are was explained in great detail hundreds of times on this Newsnight blog over several years so even I got it. Given that why there's such a difference between Independent and State school results, and why there are so many A grades (and 97% of candidates pass) is STILL being asked by the Newsnight team MUST surely be a sign of increased national stupidity.

Anyone reading the above and thinking to themselves - "no, I don't believe that", might try the alternative "hmmm I don't understand that", whilst self-critically asking how bright they are.

The problem is that one can't readily go by one's exam or test result over the past three or four decades to decide, as so much has changed over the last four decades, and largely for commercial and political (Social Justice) reasons (education is a big business today).

So here's a bit of simple maths (but note: the numbers sitting maths and physics today is in decline as schools/pupils are selecting easier subjects at A level to get higher grades/passes), and note from the table below, the sexes choose different subjects too, how equal is
that?:


lysis-subject-school

If 8% get A* and 27% get A or above (it's over 50% that get As and above in Independent schools), and if 50% of the population now sit A levels (97% of whom pass) what can that mean if 40 years ago only a fraction of those people would have been considered eligible to even do A levels?
Might it mean that as more people are doing A levels, and as these marking is norm referenced, that more are getting As?

Standards have been dramatically LOWERED is what all this means. It shows up in all sorts of measures, one of which is the international education/ability tests. Another is how gullible consumers are getting.

Sadly, like the USA, the UK is slipping competitively. The only thing that's growing is irresponsible, childlike, behaviour.

#48

especially yours

Once you have a large fraction of the students collecting A and A* grades, selecting them for limited numbers of university places (or jobs)will be done using factors which discriminate between them - interests outside school, clubs and societies, experiences. Most of these are things which cost money. The candidate who gave "a really interesting discussion of his/her trip to Antarctica" had it funded by someone else (eg The Bank of Mum & Dad).
It seems to me that this must be a part of our current problems with social mobility.

#41 Quiet wars and silent weapons

Looking at this Operations Research Technical Manual from the CIA would suggest that they're not as bumbling and anarchic as they'd like us to believe. Seems they grasp fundamentals of economics, energy, power politics and social control:

"it was decided to privately wage a quiet war against the American public with an ultimate objective of permanently shifting the natural and social energy (wealth) of the undisciplined and irresponsible many into the hands of the self-disciplined, responsible, and worthy few."

And how do they achieve this? Do this >> To get this

Keep the public ignorant >> Less public organization

Create preoccupation >> Lower defenses

Attack the family unit >> Control of the education of the young

Give less cash and more credit and doles >> More self-indulgence and more data

Maximize control >> Minimum resistance to control

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#45 continuatuion on Nigel Kennedy's freedom of choice.

If you read the bit about his career you will see that if one feels right and confident aBOUT one's abilities and liberty, one does not give in to threats. In Nigel's case he totally ignored his musical teachers and won, big way on top of that.



mim

DEVILS ADVOCATE (#44 link)

That the document has reached the public domain, strongly suggests it is intentional, and part of the war - on us.

If we look behind the event, what do we find?

It's all very '9/11'. We have already reached the 'debunkers debunked' stage.

Time for well defined states (e.g. Britain) to up the drawbridge and concentrate of the greatest INTERNAL good?

A start would be to SPOILPARTYGAMES.

´óÏó´«Ã½ NEWS interviewed Ken Baker (the ex Conservative education minister who responsible for bringing in the National Curriculum and SATs in the late 80s and early 90s) this morning (Friday). Baker's proposals just didn't make sense. As the ´óÏó´«Ã½ presenter pointed out, there had been 12 BT apprenticenships with 24,000 applicants!

Ken Baker pushing for technical apprenticeships would be just fine if it were not for the fact that post Thatcher nearly all the industrial/manufacturing jobs were sent overseas where labour and overhead costs were cheaper, hence our trade imbalance with China etc.
We have a service sector economy, and it was largely finance/business services too.

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

It's time for some hard-talk I think. Less of the pipe-dreams please.

Ms Kuensberg is exactly the type of young professional woman about whom my brother in law rails - he's still a wage slave, albeit a very senior one.

"They know everything, their take is always the right one, others are eyed quizically when they express a view contrary to theirs; ambition and cynicism are their fuel."

Watch yer back, Paxo!!

Any similarity to young professional men such as the Tweedlebands and Balls is entirely understandable.

#45

I'm not sure why my post at 45 has been denied appearance but it spoke about crossing barriers, both in within himself and in others, by Nigel Kennedy, the Englishman with extraordinary talent.

Everyones a critic and that includes me.
Laura gets some stick for what exactly; trying to ape Paxman perhaps?
We like familiarity, but when thats disturbed it can throw us somewhat. I recognised that with my own response when Laura made her debut appearence last night on NN, you know, like when the wife decides to have a rare moment with controlling the TV remote..the reptilian brain takes control and fight or flight kicks in. Anyhow, we sit there, weighing-up this new presenter with critical eye, pen at the ready to make notes, we are in effect giving the woman a job interview: "you better be up to Paxmans standards or your gonna be down the road love, don't mess up because this is done in real time..just remember what they taught you at the beeb presenting learning school and you've done this often enough in front of the bathroom mirror anyway"...yeah?...yeah.

So off she trots, good start but the idiots are passing out cakes in the gallary and are slow in running the tape for the first report she's just introduced. A bit of a butt clencher but they finally run it. That was the only awkward spot of the night as far as I was concerned. As for her manner, she played it generic (safe). Her interruptions that irked some viewers will have only been a product of nerves...nerves that were well hidden, though i would imagine bricks may have been passed. Remember the debut of Paxman on Newsnight? well I do, what about the warkster or Emily and their first night? not much difference between this Laura womans NN showcase performance and the other presenters debut.
The only real upset for me really, and its an ongoing upset is...Ed Balls is still giving lessons on how things should be done. This political hack still gets bandied about like he's a political heavyweight. Well he's not, and if you can't see it, go see your doctor.

laura has always had a bit of 'the day today' full stop style about her. maybe it was nerves but it was a bit of shocker which she will probably admit to when she reviews how it went.

Tory and LibDem politicians being savaged to death was always a rude and pointless exercise before the election. The savaging of Ed Balls was an equal waste of time. Have you thought of trying to catch them out with informed forensic questioning delivered in a calm manner? Kirsty and Jeremy aren't clever enough to ask tricky questions so have to resort to mindless aggression. I'm sure you can do better than that Laura.

wow, and double wow, the knives are out for Laura, I thought she did OK and don't forget she cut her teeth in the freezing rain of college green and she can shuffle with the best of them and her NI voice cuts right through the harranguing throng and that is why producers like her so comparisons will be made to Jeremy but if anything she lacks Paxmans humour so maybe she could work on that. One to watch is Laura....

54

yes that is what the bbc is about these days. watching the presenters rather than being informed educated and entertained by the content?

the bbc is trying to roll out the 'top gear' model of shows that are not about [in this case] cars [which is too public service] but about the jolly japes of the presenters. it failed with gardeners world.

remember presenter boxing? Middle class bbc people beating their brains out for working class pleasure?

by all means let us worship at the temple of bbc created demigods. that is what the licence fee is all about? Content? Who needs it.

Content costs.

Calm forensic questioning takes skill. And hence costs.

Opinion is free. Shouting is easy.

And careers nowadays get made by acting less as a representative of the audience and more by being a de facto opposition.

One awaits the next who will forge a lucrative future by going for lucky 13, thereby shouldering the new mantle. That is, until the next asks 14 times.

Long live the interviewer!