´óÏó´«Ã½

I've just heard a report on Radio 4 news. Apparently we are the heaviest cocaine users in all of Europe and probably most of the world.

Now why is this?

Is it because we are a completely divided and disjointed nation, who have no say in which direction government will go? Whomever we vote for we seem to get the same outcome.

Are we so depressed as a nation that only drugs will make us forget our woes?

Or are we the most hedonistic country in the world, who just want's to indulge in every commodity on offer?

Or do we have the most criminals to sell cocaine?

Or is it because it makes you feel good and nothing else?

hi,

why not look at the Falklands story from another angle and put together some form of 'war game' using all the experts you have access to and ask them to discuss various scenarios for Argentina to take control of the Falkland islands.

might throw up a morsel or two to get your teeth into.

why are they holding the G20 in Seoul? !

are they some sort of bait for North Korea to try something? !!

"1. At 2:18pm on 10 Nov 2010, ecolizzy wrote:
I've just heard a report on Radio 4 news. Apparently we are the heaviest cocaine users in all of Europe and probably most of the world.

Now why is this? "

All of those ecolizzy - they are all variants on the same theme, i.e saying the same thing in different ways. Substance abuse occurs because these drugs patch into (short circuit() the brain's monoamine and opioid peptide pathways, which mediate reinforcement, which controls rates of behaviours. Those who take quick fixes will abuse in other ways too.

Substance abuse, Personality Disorder and crime are all aspects of the same research as well as applied work. Sadly, as our population dumbs down genetically we get more abusers. They're also coming to attention more these days because of the proliferation of the media. because of how they patch into the normal systems, there is not much help that can be given, especially as it's certain types who disproportionately abuse.

Those who can't delay gratification, the impulsive, the child like emotionally. Be very wary of those peddling treatment programmes... they can be detoxed but that's about it..... they'll do it again if they get the chance..

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Yeah right, these students are so bright they got the wrong part of the building.....



They attacked office workers not the tories.

´óÏó´«Ã½Newsnight We will cover #ukstudentdemo #demo2010 protest on #newsnight - if you are students in #millbank tower and want to talk message @´óÏó´«Ã½Newsnight

How is that creating 'news' by twitter thing working out for you guys? And your... 'sources'.

7

isn't most political twitter run by government or other disinformation desks?

1

the number of organised crime gangs mushroomed under new labour. it is the huge black economy that is supporting the uk when all official figures say we should have riots in the streets?

"6. At 3:46pm on 10 Nov 2010, ecolizzy wrote:
Yeah right, these students are so bright they got the wrong part of the building....."

In the 60s, with a minimum IQ of about 115, we'd only have had 16% of the annual cohort of about 500,000 going to university, and for lots of reasons, the numbers would have been less because it was mainly males.

Now with nearly 50%, most really are not all that bright, they just think they are. That makes them really annoying. What can be done? It's as if all our governments since then have worked to wreck the country.

I'm constantly amazed by this. The economic figures bear it out too. I'm sure you and I are not the only ones to be upset about all this ecolizzy, but most others have just given up.

Change of subject - each time I see or hear Michael Gove talking about Free Schools (Toby Young's just as bad) I wonder where they got their gall from, as that's all that's talking. Even when the Swedes say it's not workable (not that we are like Sweden with our population, as they have about 9m and most of their 'immigrants' are other !) they pay no attention! Free Schools will be allowed to select their intakes we are told, and then they'll be saying that they're wonderful teaching environments. It's like saying that if one can attract everyone over 7' to your basket ball team you'll have a great basket ball training environment! We truly live in a mad country 'run by' mad-hatters, and there's no effective treatment.

There are far too many at university these days. Higher fees will hopefully deter the less able. We need to get back to when only 16% went. Most going now don't understand what used to be taught. They've lowered standards and are largely ineducable. That is a widely held assessment. What's more, they can't see this.

Hayekism led to riots in the 80s. It should be no surprise the same ideology has the same result this time?

Harriet Harman! After her disgraceful performancr in the commons today trying to jump on the back of the student protest outside and her finely tuned party all jumping on a dangerous bandwagon.

Parents and grandparents up and down the country will be horrified at the way our young people who are exercizing for the first time their democratic right to protest have been hijacked by a group of anarchistic thugs trying to bring down a democratic government.

I am absolutely fuming at the way leaflets are blanketing this area backed by all the unions scaremongering and frightening the elderly and vulnerable. I know because one was thrust into my hand at the weekend and I could not believe what I read. Dangerous and untrue.

People are vulnerable at the moment and will go out with their posters on what they think are peaceful demonstrations but they are being used by others with more sinister motives as we saw today with the students.

Some of us have seen it all before and experienced the horror of seeing normal law abiding people turning on each other egged on by those trying to bring an already troubled country to its knees.

We do have the right to protest but anyone who organises such events should never be niaive enough to think that they can remain in control of what they do.

The police today should be commended for their light touch for the last thing any parent would have wanted to see was violence used against our young people. This time the anarchists were thwarted.

Next time perhaps M/s Harman and her friends will attempt to join a coalition that is trying to help the country out of its mess instead of her attempting to add to it.

The last time an incoming Conservative Government started down the path of spending cuts it took them quite some time to the first riot: in the 1980s riots came from the poll tax, miners'/steel/other disputes, race riots and inner city riots etc, so today the ConDems have set a new record for the shortest time to the first riot for a new government.

There are many issues piling up that would seem to have the potential for more riots: the housing benefits "economic cleasing" in inner cities seems very similar to the poll tax as potential flash point - mass unemployment in the economy is beginning to take off as predicted in the construction industry - the huge job loses in local government - the list will no doubt go on growing - will it reach 5m in 12 months?

Drastically cutting back police numbers would therefore seem to me to be a bit of a bad idea particularly as there is also the potential for a national fire dispute and, given the level of over-commitment in the armed forces and the proposed cuts there too, there is in my view a serious question about the government's ability to maintain order and ensure there is adequate emergency fire service in 6-12 month's time.

There is also a considerbale degree of public support for students & parents about the massive fee increases, ditto support for those losing their jobs and very broad opposition to the defence cuts on a number of grounds ranging from disgust at veterans returning from Afghanistan to be made redundant, through to the vast cull going on in the RAF in Scotland and the loss of naval airpower capability for over a decade.

Across the Irish Sea the Eire Government is now facing the very real prospect of being forced to nationalise virtually their entire banking industry and go to the IMF & EU for direct support, as Blooomberg reported this morning that the markets are "factoring in" Government intervention to prevent a meltdown.

The Governor of the Bank of England's Inflation Report today can only be seen as a pretty blatant shot across the bows for the government's economic strategy because he really majored on the risk to the UK economy - IMHO, in sharp contrast to his previous endorsements of the spending cuts. Is the UK set on the same path as Eire?

Given that the survival of the Coalition depends on the LibDems and that there are already quite serious wobbles going on amongst their MPs who are agast at the reaction to the student fees issue and knowing quite a number of them since being @ University, I sense complete panic will set in as and when the economy dips back into recession their appetite to support Cameron & Clegg will disappear and absentions will become opposition and the risk of losing a confidence vote will be very real.

For me the key issue is what happens to the LibDems then? Clearly Clegg would have to go - but would he simply chuck it all in and do something else? I don't think so - I foresee the LibDem leadership crossing the floor to the Tories, leaving the rump of their supporters to choose between electroal oblivion or a LibLab pact.

Do we still send our young-uns to University? I thought we got all our graduates from India and China. Oh those poor students eh..to think they'll have to pay up to 9k for every year spent at Uni when they start earning. Question: Will there be enough jobs for them when they do leave the closeted confines of campus and college life?..you know, the booze, drugs, and awkward sex lifestyle mixed in with the occasional lecture. Many graduates, as i understand it, after years at Uni, are competing for jobs that either involve flippin burgers or working at the ´óÏó´«Ã½.

Seriously, there are too many students. I'm with Bill Gates on this issue of 'too many'..a student 'population reduction' would be a good thing. And like I already suggested, we get Grads from overseas...they're cheaper to employ too. Welcome to the Global village, its great!..hey, its what you wanted, yeah.

Peaceful demonstration is and must always remain a legal right and, yes, the issue of Student Fees is completely worthy of mass protest but now the Big Cons and Lib Dims can claim the right to stand above today’s stupidity and trumpet .....

Yet .....

Barely has the dust settled and the media are looking to see if the Cops are to blame!

Too many ‘fuzz’ and they are accused of being heavy handed, too few and they ‘ are losing control of our streets’!

Five groups are to blame for the actions of today .....

And the Peelers aren’t amongst ‘em!

Blame .....

The Organizers for failing to organise.

The Thugs and Agitators whom were there for their own purpose.

The students whom chose not to walk away and goaded on the rabble.

The media, queueing up to get the best shot, angle or view.

And of course ....

The Dim Cons!


Put the blame where it lays .....

Not ....

with the Met!

The police pussy footing around students:
Were that the same police squad that were out at the last Islamic jihadi beano, them with the 'death to America' placards and such like. The Dibble higher-ups should've had that heavy mob today at Millbank - those who delt with the countryside alliance protest - when the students broke glass..now they were proper mean and brutal..where were they today? ..at the station eating donuts and pasties havin a right old laugh i suppose.

i have no sympathy with people seeking to perpetuate the 20th century student model. People don't want education they want to go to parties and get drunk and want the public to pay for it

If people want education they can get it online.

Student debt is a stupidity tax.

what a nice lesson in humbugism, our dear leader is with the chinese dear leaders and he is lecturing students on the need for fiscal restraint and yet Tory central office is being trashed because of rich millionaires telling 'poor' students that 9k is a price worth paying when the same rich millionaires didn't pay a dime. That is a lesson to far...even for the Chinese....the fightback has begun and it happened at Tory HQ.....

Perhaps these enormous university fees are really a smoke screen for more foreign students to learn here for less fee....



I wonder why we pay for the world to be educated, kept in good health, and paid to sit at home and reproduce.

What's so wrong with the British?

Ecolizzy asked: What's so wrong with the British?

Well, it all went wrong in the 1960s, with:
Leftwing radicalism, the brotherhood of man nonsense, spoilt children incapable of lifting a cup, Liberialism and Jack Straw.

After many years of study, scientists, Doctors of the mind and academics (of which I'm not one but would like to be) came to the conclusion that of all the recognised mental illnesses known...liberialism is the most fatal. It can infect a whole society in less than 30year.

There you go Ecoliz, me hopes that answered you question.

It seems to me that these extra fees are little more than the double or treble taxing of university places. There will be no tax cut which would allow us to retain the money currently being spent on university tuition by government and spend it as we see fit. They will keep taking the taxes and just load even more taxes disguised as debt onto graduates therby making them debt laden wage slaves who are beholden to the state. A modern version of the company store when you think about it.

Well done to the students for standing up to Cameron and Clegg. One thing is for sure, no government in this country will listen to argument and persuasion so there is little else left but the sort of actions we saw today. Good luck to the students, I hope they are successful.

"23. At 9:32pm on 10 Nov 2010, kevseywevsey wrote:
Ecolizzy asked: What's so wrong with the British?

Well, it all went wrong in the 1960s, with:
Leftwing radicalism, the brotherhood of man nonsense, spoilt children incapable of lifting a cup, Liberialism and Jack Straw.

After many years of study, scientists, Doctors of the mind and academics (of which I'm not one but would like to be) came to the conclusion that of all the recognised mental illnesses known...liberialism is the most fatal. It can infect a whole society in less than 30year.

There you go Ecoliz, me hopes that answered you question."

I think that's almost completely right, except the left-wing bit.

Liberals are in fact right-wing freedom fighters who aren't aware of the consequences of what they are fighting for because they suffer from arrested development (Lenin called anarchists like Sylvia Pankhurst a victim of an infantile disorder as they were clueless narcissists alienated from what mattered). Our 'lefties' were in fact these anarchists. We don't have many real left-wingers here as those are statists and statists are deemed bad for markets as they regulate. So, true lefties are mislabelled and hounded as 'right-wing nazis' by the media even though the German nazis were clearly left-wing statists too just like Stalinists!. Britain is, as you say, a peculiar place today, but it is because of this contrived muddle.

We have had anarchists running the country for decades, and the likes of Tesco and Top Shop, along with the banks, love them for their do nothing libertarianism.

I'm not joking. This really is what's been going on. It's been most venally done.

Jeremy has let himself down tonight. Grilling a woman on her age, a sabbatical etc is unacceptable. A bit embarrassing to be honest.

Whilst I do not approve of the valdalism at todays protests the current politicians are betraying a whole generation of children and the current tuition fee proposals will be more unpopular than the poll tax.
They have every right to be angry I am a parent of three university aged children and I am extremely angry as well. The liberal democrats have betrayed thier public promises and more importantly a whole generation.
I did not vote for this and given the opportnity no one would vote for this policy.

Jeremy was totally out of order this evening. Asking the President of London Students her age, if she was a student and how long she had been on sabbatical. This was a personal attack and did not reflect what the debate was supposed to be about ie student fees and the protests in London. Shame on you Jeremy

Having just watched the newsnight report on the student protests, I would like to make a few points and see if anyone agrees with me:
1. This seems to be a storm in a teacup as the wide majority of student DID protest peacefully within the law
2. The NUS president is right to distance himself from the criminal element who hijacked the protest today, and he seems to understand how to talk to people in a way which is effective, respectful and clear
3. The lady guest who claims to represent students is a militant who clearly cares more about making a scene than the actual issues and I hope that when she sees the footage she is appalled by her behaviour and comments (though I very much doubt this will be the case). Did anyone else think she made a complete idiot of herself and ensured that her like will never be taken seriously by anyone who matters?
4. It is my belief that the vast majority of students on the march were merely jumping on the bandwagon for a different and exciting day out rather than from a genuine understanding of the package on offer, and the minority of students who DO have the intelligence and maturity to actually take the time to understand the issues would not have been on the march today.
5. I agree with the point raised by many that too many people now go to university, not because I'm elistist (I'm from a working class background) but because as an educator myself every day I wonder about the value of an education system which prepares our young people for studies which are outdated, unfit for purpose and do not prepare them for anything except disappointment. When oh when will we realise that the key to success is in matching the aspirations, intelligences, passions, interests and talents of our young people to careers which suit them and allowing them to access the training which will be most useful to them, in the myriad of settings that entails? If the new package deters people from wasting three or four important years and pushes them to fully consider their options after Y13 then, in my opinion, that will be a good thing.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Jeremy Paxman's very personal attack on the student leader protester made this presentation biased against student concerns over proposed increases in fees. As presenter of University Challenge one would expect Jeremy Paxman, of all people, to be more sympathetic. His arrogance exposed his own privileged and elitist background. Like Marie Antoinette, his attitude on this publicly funded broadcasting corporation, when discussing a spontaneous and popular student uprising, appeared reactionary. He is obviously one of those overpaid ´óÏó´«Ã½ presenters we hear about. Please make amends.

What a lively show this evening!
From the debate with the Lib Dem guy and the student leaders to the debate on the cuts in the Navy - excellent stuff. Loved Alan Little's report on what the French are doing about the cuts - but the best bit was Sarkozy telling one of his citizens to "p*** off you p****." Well at least he tells it like it is :p.

@ #26&28 - Jeremy did not ask any questions which were illegitimate. There is nothing wrong in his interviewing.

Yeah sorry mod, I shouldn't have used the word 'harriden'..i was pushing it a bit there. I should've changed it to 'Sabbatical Clare'

Mod, your not a graduate by any chance?

Ah so some posters are sticking up for the anarchist claire. I rather get the feeling she's the student who never grew up.

Why she was protesting I don't know, probably a single mum, going back into education, she would get the lot paid for.

The actual kids that will suffer will be all those middle class kids who've worked hard and studied, but perhaps the bank of mum and dad can't support their kids as they have now lost their jobs in the public sector. 2000 jobs are about to go in that very building they trashed, didn't they realise the tory party only occupy one floor. The very sort claire would think priviliged.

I actually agree with those who say too many young people go to uni, a lot of them only study wild living, how about an apprenticeship or even working for a living.

Two of my kids went to uni, and paid the fees, but the other one earns twice as much as them, because he worked from the bottom of the company upwards.

I agree with some of the comments that said Mr Paxman was letting himself down when he interrogated the President of the London Students Union on her age, how long she had been a student and the sabbatical she was on, but I would like to add that she did a perfectly good job of making herself look bad without him, by persistently trying to evade his question about why she thought entering the building that houses Tory HQ was a good idea.
He was right on the button when he pointed out that those students who took part in the violence and vandalism had only distracted the media from the more important issue, which seemed to be why the Liberal Democrats are betraying an election promise in order to support the massive hike in tuition fees. I think it is a great shame that they have shot themselves in the feet in this way.
If the disturbance had been caused by Coalition-supporting agent provocateurs, I could have understood it better but it seems that this was not the case (from the comments of the lady from the London Union).
I agree with melonstar's comment that the disturbance was not representative of the demo as a whole, and that most of the students did behave in a law-abiding way, but I would reject the assertion that they were jumping on the bandwagon for a different and exciting way out. Some may have been, but I don't think there is any evidence to doubt their sincerity. They were there to attack plans that would make the education system inaccessible to a huge swathe of the population, and if I can sum it up in one sentence I'm sure these intelligent people - they are students, after all - can understand it.
Sadly, the demonstration won't make that much difference in the short-term. The change will win Parliamentary approval and it will be for a succeeding Parliament - in several years' time - to consider its repeal. Before that happens, it will be our responsibility - those of us who use our vote - to remember what has happened today and to consider how we can use our vote to affect the policies of that succeeding Parliament.

When I say it's a great shame 'they' have shot themselves in the feet, I did mean the students, but on consideration, I do think the Lib Dems have also given themselves a Blighty wound with this and may have reason to regret it at the next election (if voters' memories can extend back to today's events at that time).

HOLLOWED HALLS

Might the problem be that universities belong with Westminster PALACE government, monarchy/nobility, military pomp and an established church (have I missed any?) as TRAPPINGS of a bygone age, that the rich/powerful still cling to, because they are accustomed (conservative)?

I have pointed out before that elective learning could be effected in a far more practical way, and at much lower cost, using modern communications (the OU has shown one way). BUT DREAMING SPIRES AND DROWNING EIGHTS WOULD GO. 'They' won't like that.

Lizzy asks what is wrong with us. As far ss student funding goes, part of the problem is that universities are NATIONAL BAUBLES (as above) before they are places of learning. As for the supposed drug problem: read Oliver James. A drug Tsar in Reading told me 15 years ago: "We have no drug problem. Only an: utterly-miserable-people-escaping-life problem."

ASTUTE OBSERVATION LIZZY - AND THE WORLD NEEDS STUTES (#34)

Claire was wearing a quasi-military tunic and - boots? I reckon Wolfie Smith would have got the hots.

In passing: Do you know the average IQ of front bench politicians? Not sure behaviour is the whole story.

Also: it occurred to me that Coalition Cameron is madly in love with marriage. Would he permit a skint couple to throw over their marriage vows?

WESTMINSTER POLITICS DEFINED YET AGAIN

The (rehearsed) chorus of protest from the ConDems, that 'pledges do not count if you form a coalition', EVEN THOUGH YOU HAD NO MANDATE FROM THE VOTERS SO TO DO, would be beyond contempt IN NORMAL LIFE. But just as the POLITICAL LIE has an honoured place among Westminster's finest, so it seems, has political reneging.

When will Jeremy stop juvenile harassment of young women, and take on the disgraceful grandees, regarding INTEGRITY.

Oh - it's all going awfully Britishly.

FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT (#39)

During the election run-up, NO politician would address the matter of an indecisive result. They could have, but chose the usual, rather pathetic, 'we do not countenance anything but winning' rhetoric. CLEGG WAS ESPECIALLY GUILTY OF THIS. They 'made that bed' now LET THEM LIE ON IT. If Jeremy was up to the job, he would push this point home.

HAD THEY ADDRESSED COALITION BEFORE VOTING DAY, THEY COULD CLAIM A MANDATE - THEY HAVE NONE. Once more, the honourable ciphers are without honour.

Waterboarding technique used Bush
Which gave me an idea to use
A return technique on a man whose name also begins with Bu.
Or, shall I call him a boot,
A loo?? Well, he identifies his cleverness as 2.
Add before it the number of 5
And what do you get?
A tart or something like that?
Whatever he is, I know he isn’t kind, nor is he smart.
He also identifies with Tesco
But does he have anything with Mart,
Or for that matter, with Marr?
I know he did have a lot with Frost
Who liked using the phrase ‘morning top’.
Or was it rather ‘top of the morning’?
Well, anyway, once he did suggest
To have another ‘meeting’ with Mr Aziz
Who worked with Saddam who’s now dead
Though I’m not certain of Mr Aziz’s end fate.

mim, for the sake of a newly born, wide, truthful gate

#40

Isn't there a saying, singie, 'It's never too late'? Perhaps you might still make it as a journalist with the prospect of chairing a news programme. I have a suspicion, though, that if anybody would watch it, it would be for a giggle or two.

#41 update

I have now found out what's happening to Tariq Aziz and his wereabouts:



Even he does not get executed, I shouldn't think his future's likely to be rosy. This is the man that Sir David Frost all those years ago engaged with in a cosy and friendly chat, suggesting that the viewers ought to feel the same. 'Top of the morning, Sir'.

Monika

44, What Does it Stand For?
To me it's the truth and the heart that is warm:

The time has come serious to be
With only a few specks of humour thrown in.
Dead serious even, as the case might be
And I hope it will be taken as such
In the street of the Press based in East London called Fleet.
Quite a few years ago I did bump into Sir David
In a restaurant off the central Tottenham Road.
He did look at me, I could have sworn with a meek kind of smile,
But I pushed off with a friend of mine
Whose name is Ian, also involved in the game,
But he is caring with his friends and family.
He also speaks French.

mim

Is bravery serious, or is it simply a joke?:

/news/uk-11720276

Thank you, Lord Ashcroft, for organising the exhibition. I shall do my best to go and see the Victorian and George Crosses awarded to real heroes with my own pair of eyes.

Monika

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Aaron Porter, friend of the Labour leader..... there's a long history of , isn't there? Still, there are way too many people at university today, most aren't up to it. Numbers needs to go down by at least 30%.

#18 JA P

Quite! Police can't do right for doing
wrong.


#20 Jaunty

Sadly, although a bit of a sweeping generalisation, too close to the truth.


"...If people want education they can get it online."
Or, given that few 17/18 year olds really know what they want or will be able to do with their lives, lets delay further education to a starting age of 22. Instead of 'Gap Years' to help them find themselves, let wanna be students go out and work for a few years. Let them pay some tax before they start to use other tax payers money to fuel their choices. My bet is that at least half of the current University population would find they like the money, and don't need a degree - finding work place training or taking OU or short sabbatical courses(NOT the ones who do so to lead radical unions) or even just work up through the ranks through experience and application.

Top level education should NOT be seen as a right. It should not be too cheap. It should not be the 'easy' next step to delay facing RL. It should be based on need (the country), and on the latent ability of the candidate to fill those needs. But that's is discriminatory innit?

SWEEPING GENERALISATION ALERT
My sons, both in Uni in Scotland were aware of buses being laid on SU's to take all those wanting to go to the demo. Most of those attending they believed to be ones who spend too little time on their studies or were on low level courses, some with fewer than 6 hours per week of guided study.

Both also know a high percentage 'drop out' or change course some more than once before graduating.

Delay the age of entry to University. Try Real Life first.

Mr Paxman, asking a lady her age is not considered nice. But Nice and Fair isn't what get's at the crux, and anyway, I don't think Claire would appreciate being called 'a Lady'. The response was interesting enough to excuse toe across the mark.

#48 Both also know a high percentage 'drop out' or change course some more than once before graduating.

Delay the age of entry to University. Try Real Life first.

Very good points LC, I know a good many young people who have tried this course and that and have dropped out. Perhaps if they had paid for the priviledge of higher education, they might not have even thought about trying. Incidentaly they were often poorer kids who wouldn't have to pay anyway, so again it's going to hit the brighter, better off kids harder.

Very good point about working, and trying real life, it does make you appreciate education, if you know what job you'll be stuck with if you don't study.

I'm all for study in the workplace, why doesn't any british company, including the NHS and other publice sector, offer training anymore, just import trained people from overseas?

Did this lady make it on?:

@´óÏó´«Ã½Newsnight@SophiaCR - fantastic news - one of our producers will give them a call if you send us their name and number

Interesting CV for a 'student leader' (how was that definition applied/checked? The exchange is revealing but not too clear) Maybe all the not so mature students were in bed preparing for a full day's work the next day?

Excellent newsnight and a very big thank you to Jeremy for exposing the vacuous idiocy of the non studying "student" and how the violence directly led to the news agenda being changed from tuition fees to the limits of free protest.

I'm sure that the violent protesters had a lot of fun, however, such activity is completely futile.

In the end, no amount of protesting, strikes, direct action, civil unrest, rioting will generate a single solitary penny of revenue and will not change anything at all.

The country will still be in very deep debt, there still be no money, the universities will still need to find other ways to fund themselves and there will still be tuition fees.

Sometime the very best way to demonstrate to people exactly how powerless they really are is just to give them what they want so let them have their "Winter of Discontent" - when that ends in the miserable failure of the last one then even they may begin to understand that there really is no alternative no matter how much they protest.

What can you say about this....

We had laws in place once that banned the cruel treatment of animals at slaughter, I happen to have been to abatoirs, they are very strange places, but you don't hear animals bleating, mooing after they've been stunned.

We have no values or morales as a nation anymore, anything goes, as long as it doesn't uphold a british tradition.

Regarding the thin line of police at this march/demonstration by anarchists, I haven't heard any complaints of police violence yet.

And next time there's a march, I think the police will be far better prepared for the next riot. They have been warned, and they will act accordingly.

The police chief said it must have been truamatic for the workers in Millbank, normal office workers doing a days work. I can vouch for that they were.

#31 Selborne

"... Jeremy Paxman's very personal attack on the student leader protester"

Attack? What attack? A question was asked. The guest answered without hesitation. Quel problem? Sometimes, someone's age, race, gender, culture, religion etc are relevant to the debate.

It's time the GBP got over the mis belief that there can ever be equality or NO discrimination. We ALL discriminate. All the time. Sometimes rightly sometimes wrongly. But it cannot be legislated out of our psyche or out of our best interest. We should actually discriminate more, not less.


#34 EcoLizzy

May I heartily commend this post to the house.

This doesn't surprise me at all. Every time I go out shopping to have a look around, I can't believe the amount people are still buying, or spending in cafes pubs and restuarants, and always wonder where they get the money from. Well it appears they don't have any, well a lot of them anyway.

Perhaps we should take on the Chinese attitude to money a bit more, save most, and spend a little.

#38 Citizen Wolfie Smith, perfect Barrie, just perfect, it had me rolling on the floor.

Paxo lived up to his name - stuffing thrown all over the place.

Character assassination is no substitute for a full and reasoned assessment of events and motives - personal attacks are cheap tricks we expect from tabloid TV, not the ´óÏó´«Ã½'s flagship news programme.

I'm not interested in cheap shots - I only watch NN for its depth and the quality of the debate - last night was a low point for Paxman and I hope he learns from it.

Here's my take on the policy agenda re: student fees.

The reason why raising fees is such a bad idea is that in the long run its going to cost the taxpayer orders of magnitude more. Why?

Because students will start work, not get a mortgage due to their student debt, fail to invest in housing OR pay into pensions, so when they reach retirement age they will be financially dependent on welfare which will have to support them for 20-30 years and the cost will be at least 10 times the fee debt per person - indeed 20 times seems probable.

So all the drivel about "addressing generational debt" at the justification for this is eyewash - we are storing up MASSIVE costs fro our grandchildren that IMHO are unaffordable.

So I think the fees policy is totally irresponsible - and I think all these subterfuges like "student loans" are simply a way to avoid facing up to the real issue of how much and where we invest in education and training of our people.

Browne's report is predicated on academic freedom and the autonomy of universities - this is the Achilles Heel in the process - one NN has completely missed.

If we don't like or value the courses being offered, we should refuse to pay for them and this nonsense of academic freedom, but paid for by the tax/fee payer, needs to be dumped.

Academic people should be encouraged to take academic subjects, but those of a more practical nature should be offered first rate training AND WE SHOULD VALUE THEM EQUALLY.

I'd have liked to hear an intelligent discussion around these key policy issues, not some stupid, childish and quite frankly irrelevant self-indulgent Paxo Rant.

Why not move Paxo to 1900 on ´óÏó´«Ã½ 1 and give him a whole tabloid show called "PAXO STUFFING" and let him demolish airheead celebs and self-serving politicians - but keep NN authoritive and focussed.

BRITISH STUDENTS & LIBERTARIAN 'BIG EDUCATION'

Yesterday we witnessed a large group of (largely clueless) students, plus a smaller group of anarchist activists helping to advance the policies of the governing/deregulating group of anarchists through trying to smash up the latter's HQ and thus further alienate the viewing public from students.

Surely this demonstrated to some that the vast majority of students today aren't smart enough to see what's going on? This serves the interests of the incumbents which is to liberate education from state control in order to privatise it.

Michael Gove missed an opportunity to be on TV advocating the merits of DIY education (but maybe he was busy directing the activists?)..

THE SPIRAL OF DUMBED DOWNED EQUALITY AND 'CHOICE'

49. At 08:51am on 11 Nov 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

"I know a good many young people who have tried this course and that and have dropped out. Perhaps if they had paid for the priviledge of higher education, they might not have even thought about trying. Incidentaly they were often poorer kids who wouldn't have to pay anyway, so again it's going to hit the brighter, better off kids harder."

It's got nothing to do with rich or poor, it's all about having the genetic ability. 40 years ago,, with only 16% going to university (less in fact as it was still more boys tan girls), proportionately, there were far less drop-outs than today because the courses catered for a narrower window of genetic ability and were more selective in the first place. Furthermore, if one came from a poorer economic background one received a full grant which meant that all tuition fees and living expenses were paid for by the state. What has changed in the last 20 years is a massive dumbing down of university. Now the mean IQ will be about 100 if that, and as far more students can't cope with the courses, the courses have to be dumbed down to accommodate. It's a big spiral downwards. Why can't more people see this? It's because they don't understand human diversity and that talk of equality of opportunity is not the same as equality per se, In other words, it's a failure of discrimination, i,e It's a failure of intelligence as discrimination and intelligence are very similar behaviours (seen non verbal IQ tests)..

Bright people have to stop analysing events in terms of imagined psychological concepts like hard work, motivation, learning, thinking etc. These are just intensional fillers which are in need of explanation. Behaviour scientists seek to explain these sot do not use them to explain.

Cognitive ability is Normally Distributed. This tells one something very important about the annual cohort (~600,000) and how many should be in university. Sadly, most people discussing this are not very bright these days (the Internet partly explains t his in terms of opportunity, many don't discriminate between what they think and what is true), and far more don't respect people who do know what they are talking about.

Instead, they stupidly think that everyone is an equal, are like them, and that everyone's views are just opinions. They aren't. The naive belief that this is so really just highlights that many people (average and lower ability) can't tell the difference between statements of opinion from statements of fact, which is, as I keep pointing out, a symptom of modern anarchism and dumbing down. Good sense is being crowded out by populist nonsense and mass entitlement (narcissism aka arrested development). It's a statistical, critical mass effect. See X Factor, Strictly etc.

Coming to a town near you.....

#60

Ecolizzy has already posted the link
I thought you like what she wrote to read

mim

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

CONDESCENTION CAMERON IS GETTING WORSE

Dave is now prefacing 'policemen' with 'brave'. You would think he is talking of a toddler with a scaped knee. That awful mummy-knows-best delivery, is a constant reminder he knows 'us' from 'them'.

WE HAVE GOT OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE.

"55. At 09:45am on 11 Nov 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

Perhaps we should take on the Chinese attitude to money a bit more, save most, and spend a little. "


Like virginity and pregnancy, one can't be a little bit Chinese with Socialist Characteristics. They are basically . It just took time and sound population management (including keeping out migrants pretending to assimilate, hard to not be spotted as an alien in China, not so in USSR?) for Democratic-Centralism to take a country from a feudal/rural to a socialist industrial economy, and they appear to have done a rather good job in just two generations (60 years), whilst we have done the reverse by making our pact with libertarians (anarchism is an infantile disorder according to a famous paper by Lenin).

There are far too many puzzled (propagandized?) people in the West, some
working for the ´óÏó´«Ã½ who seem to desperately want to know where the Chinese GULAG is and why so many bright people over there seem content to be 'oppressed' and want none of our 'freedom'. They've looked in Burma, they've looked in Uzbekistan, they've even looked in N Korea.

Perhaps they should have been looking in the USA and Britain instead given our prison numbers?

Here's a thought for the day: When you read, see or hear something you emotionally react to, do you say to yourself: a) this is something which I have not encountered before and which I find alien or b) this is something which I do not agree with (is not consistent with what I already think)? Might these in fact be essentially the same response but with different names? This is the shady world of the private mental state which is largely inaccessible to the reinforcing verbal community (so is highly ambiguous).

60. At 10:25am on 11 Nov 2010, Mistress76uk wrote:
Coming to a town near you

Elitist campaigning via subterfuge?

Those evil Muslims/Islamists - they just aren't like us are they?
See and Judeo-Christianity ;-)

Hayekism Returns

Police said that violence was unexpected? Not if you know the effect Hayekist philosophy has on society. They should expect more riots over all sorts of things and more frequent? It happened in the 80s. Clearly no one at the top of state security understands the effect of hayekism upon society. Or even what it is?

Aircraft Carriers

UK Democracy institutionalises incompetence. The uk has no nation building science. So everything is 'fag packet' by the uninformed unless by accident? So isn't the surprise that people expect competence from the State. There are 9 countries in the world with aircraft carriers with only the usa having more than 2. why is it so hard for the uk to think it has to be part of the 9?

Arts

most art is online where true democracy decides what works and what doesn't? State funding of the 'arts' might be dear to ´óÏó´«Ã½ but to the rest of us its just expensive.

French to fight for their 'right' for their lifestyle to be funded by debt?

JP needs a catflap? Who puts their cat out into a cold wet windy night? Its akin to putting a cat in a bin?

67. At 1:19pm on 11 Nov 2010, jauntycyclist wrote:
Hayekism Returns

It's never been away!

"Clearly no one at the top of state security understands the effect of hayekism upon society. Or even what it is?"

Of course they do. They wouldn't be at the top of libertarian state security otherwise would they!

Hayek got his Nobel for his and Keith Joseph's clueless puppet Margaret Thatcher loved the stuff. You really do need to wake up to what's going on. You live in a liberal-democracy - that's Hayekism. We are the bad guys and gals. See recent Wall Street etc and the 1993 article listed by Hawkeye. They even have the gall to write Nobel winning papers and books advertising their criminogenic (sorry venal as it's made legal through legislative reform, see 1999 USA, 2000 here) chuzpah. That most people don't see through it just speaks volumes about how vain and dull witted they are perhaps?

68
yes people think the muslims are backward for rejecting the western hayekist model of 'heaven' but its because they see it for what it is that they do reject and ask 'how is this good'?


for me its the Luddite attitude to philosophy in the uk. No one who looks at what people take as the highest idea of the mind would be fooled that Hayekism was 'good'.

i've not heard the H word used once on NN. No one has been questioned about it directly? Most MP's don't even know what the big society is code for? Letwin has been keeping a low profile.

Hayek is just another person who says there is no such thing as the good and all is relative and so seek to make a hell on earth as 'the norm' and even 'normalise' and rationalise it. Anyone who lived through the Thatcher years will recognise the taste of that. We are all iraqis now :)

"69. At 7:30pm on 11 Nov 2010, jauntycyclist wrote:
68
yes people think the muslims are backward for rejecting the western hayekist model of 'heaven' but its because they see it for what it is that they do reject and ask 'how is this good'?"

They are anti-Islam because Islam is anti usury and interest. It has nothing to do with religion or God. It is all about money. Islam is fundamentally left wing - i.e. socialist. It is people orientated.

"for me its the Luddite attitude to philosophy in the uk. No one who looks at what people take as the highest idea of the mind would be fooled that Hayekism was 'good'."

Yes they do. You should study some modern philosophy instead of assuming what you do. Try Frege, Wittgenstein, Carnap, Quine etc. It gave you computing and programming.

"i've not heard the H word used once on NN. No one has been questioned about it directly? Most MP's don't even know what the big society is code for? Letwin has been keeping a low profile."

No, you'll hear of Friedman, Greenspan etc instead.

"Hayek is just another person who says there is no such thing as the good and all is relative and so seek to make a hell on earth as 'the norm' and even 'normalise' and rationalise it. Anyone who lived through the Thatcher years will recognise the taste of that. We are all iraqis now :)"

No, he was the one who said markets determine value. After WWII he was not popular at all. It was only when the LSE went libertarian (anarchist) that this all changed. Their enemy was the state. Old Labour. Look to what is happening now, forget the rest. They are trying to destroy what is left of Britain as a nation state in favour of it being regional Development Agencies as EU NUTs plus Scotland, Wales and they would give NI to Ireland so it could be a NUT too.

70

..It gave you computing..

actually logic comes from parmenedes. Wittgenstein is just austic shell shock babble.

As long as people rage like Kalibans against the good as the highest idea of the mind their work will have little good in it.

using the market [ Greenspan viewed self interest as the the only 'regulator' necessary] to determine 'the good' because of the belief it has all knowledge is the same as saying there is no good. The market delivers price bubbles. Oil racing to $140 was not due to market 'wisdom' and the outcome was not good.