大象传媒

I believe Pauls piece tonight is based heavily on this summary by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard.


ECB is euroland's last hope as bail-out machinery fails to resolve crisis




The ECB is supposed to be independant of the EEC and yet it is clearly bowing to FrancoGerman political pressure with regard to its actions on Italy last week. It would appear that FrancoGerman policy is dictating fiscal policy to other EEC sovereign states (via the EC and the ECB).

Now please just remind me how many of the chief Euro technocrats were elected with a democratic mandate?

The Jeremy Kyle generation finally reach critical mass and go on the rampage and, yet again, like some warped game of pin the Tail-to-the-Donkey, we have seen a small army of politicians, commentators, so-called 鈥渃ommunity leaders鈥�, failed 鈥測oof workers鈥�, sociology academics desperately reaching for abstract imaginary causes such as 鈥減overty鈥�, 鈥渂oredom鈥� and they have unthinkingly repeated their tired old dogma that we are seeing the "frustration" and "anger" of "alienated", "disenfranchised" young men. This is complete and utter rubbish that should be ruthlessly taken to task as soon as it is uncritically repeated.

If anyone actually takes time to carefully study the TV images then they would soon notice that those taking part in the riots are not "angry" - they are laughing, they are enjoying themselves, absolutely loving it and taking sheer delight in their infantile violence. This is exactly what mindless behaviour of mob rule looks like and precisely what happens when lawless zones are allowed to develop due to the police not enforcing the rule of law because of "local sensitivities".

Neither is 鈥減overty鈥� the cause if the Bling, expensive trainers, mobile telephones or cars of the street gangs are anything to go by. Those who are homeless and disposed in these areas are those who have had their homes and businesses destroyed and looted by the rioters. No, this is organised criminality from those who want the nice things in life but are not prepared to work hard to earn them so instead use violence and intimidation to tyrannise others into giving them what they want.

As for 鈥渂oredom鈥� 鈥� who can possibly justify being 鈥渂ored鈥� when our society has never been so over stimulated with a vast variety of media, social media, PCs, mobiles, playstations, X boxes, online gaming, etc, etc, etc, etc that would never have been available to previous generations who would never of dreamt of behaving in this way.

The idea of personal responsibility and that individuals are held accountable for their own individual actions rarely gets a mention and, worse, the self-evident idea of parental responsibility in that children are the responsibility of their parents is routinely shouted down .

Well here is a cause that should be stated clearly and unequivocally 鈥� the riots and looting happened because there really are bad people who do bad things and what needs to happened is to ensure that the bad people are permanently locked away for the mutual safety of us all. Just like Peter Sutcliffe and Levi Bell Belfield are evil people who do evil things so need to be locked away for the rest of their natural lives we need to apply exactly the same principle to all the rioters and looters. They did it because they can and given the opportunity they鈥檒l simply do it all over again.

Prison sentences need to be extremely long so that no matter how young the perpetrators were then they will only possibly leave prison when they are far too old to be able to riot. If there is not enough room in the current prisons then put them in a detention camp (with barbed wire and armed guards) and get them to build their own prisons in exchange for time off their long sentences, after all, this is how Worm Wood Scrubs was built.

Yes, all benefits and Social Housing should be permanently withdrawn 鈥� let them starve on the streets for all I care as that will be one solution and if they so much as think of committing another crime to 鈥渟urvive鈥� then lock them up and be permanently warehoused like the human landfill that they are.

The legal requirement of having to provide social housing to the feral families that have young children should be immediately abolished 鈥� they have no such requirement in the Netherlands and if anyone there gets themselves knocked up in a pitiful attempt to emotionally blackmail the rest of society in giving them housing then they get precisely nothing and the end result of this is that their rate of teenage pregnancy is far lower than the UKs.

The irresponsible parents who have children that they cannot afford to have, look after or house should be automatically sterilised and their children taken into care.

Please organise E petitions and write to your MP to make sure that all this happens:








No doubt the unelected "community leaders","Yoof workers" and other useful idiot apologists will automatically jump on the bandwagon to blame the everyone else for absolutely everything whilst making tortuous excuses for those who openly destroy the very communities that they live in but please don't be fooled by any of this propaganda for a single second.

These riots happened because there is a ghetto culture of grievance and a ridiculously exaggerate sense of entitlement that simply seized the opportunity to have yet another pop at the police, the rule of law and, ultimately, democracy itself. The politicians need to be us, the ordinary people, to give them the genuine political will to deal with this problem so please do this.

How did the legalisation of abortion affect the rate of violent crime in the US?


Gang type crime rates correlate heavily with unwanted births/children.

This was observed in New York in the US in the mid 90's, when violent gang type crimes drastically dropped 18 to 20 years after legalised abortion was introduced to the state in 1973. In addition to this, severe benefit penalties were imposed on women who had babies and were in receipt of benefit payments at around the same time (i.e. the opposite to what has happened with benefit payments in the UK over the last decade or so - hat tip to Ms Harman)



Beware of ex politicians and ex senior NYPD policemen boasting of successful policing policies that drastically reduced gang crimes (ala Giuliani/Bratton).

The latest gang troubles could take up to two decades to fix. Dave's got his work cut out.

First line of my #2 should have read:

"I believe Madeleine's piece tonight is to be based heavily on this summary by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard."

Addendum to my #4

Bill Bratton


This guy just got lucky!

#3 Lord Horror

You are not being forensic enough IMHO.

Please read this excellent post:
/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2011/08/friday_12_august_2011.html?postId=109985425

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Dear Lord Horror,

I can find many echoes of your sentiments in political discourse down the years - this was exactly the sort of rhetoric a certain Bavarian housepainter used in the beer cellars of Munich in the 1930s, the same justifications by Franco, Musollini and Oswald Moseley to "sweep the streets clean".

The articulation of "black gang culture" to our current problem is also getting worryingly close the way that the "jewish conspiracy" theory which was wheeled out by facists across the world to explain the state of 1930s world economy.

I don't doubt for a moment that there were "bad people" involved in the rioting - but there were also people like the 11 year old kid arrested and prosecuted for picking a packet of gum out of a broken shop window - was that kid "evil" - or just stupid?

That there is something fundamentally wrong in these areas is now at least agreed - the issue is now what it is - and what to do about it.

Let's consider getting tough - In my experience prision works in two ways - it keeps offenders off the streets for as long as they remain locked up, but it also provides what is in effect a University of Crime, where inmates network, teach each other scams, build their mental and pyhsical strength - then re-emerge much more effective criminals.

As to the policing regime being tightened, go and read "Scarman & the Aftermath", a study of the Scarman inquiry after the Brixton riots. I note that since community policing came in, relationships between the black community & the police in Brixton improved and that no riots took place in Brixton this time. I also note that the loss of life this time and the extraordinarily high arrest rate might perhaps show that although the Met might have been a little slow out of the blocks, any US police force face with rioting of this severity would be amazed at how well the Met have done without firearms or water cannon.

What could we possibly agree on? Firstly maybe some of the facts?

The locations where the rioting happened are a matter of fact - the flashpoint was where a young black man was shot dead by police, after rising tension in the area. This has happened across the world over the years - sometimes a black community, sometimes white - on both sides in N. Ireland - sometimes the police were at fault, others it was a mistake, sometimes they were justified in shooting the person concerned. Were you outraged by the shooting of the Brazilian young man mistaken for an islamic terrorist? So we all should%2

continued

The locations where the rioting happened are a matter of fact - the flashpoint was where a young black man was shot dead by police, after rising tension in the area. This has happened across the world over the years - sometimes a black community, sometimes white - on both sides in N. Ireland - sometimes the police were at fault, others it was a mistake, sometimes they were justified in shooting the person concerned. Were you outraged by the shooting of the Brazilian young man mistaken for an islamic terrorist? So we all should be - but equally we should be grateful for brave police officers taking on armed terrorists to defend us.

Normally an event like this one would remain localised to the immediate area - but it didn't and spread like wildfire across the country. This factor MUST be what is different about recent events - and IMHO its the key to understanding WHY it happened and WHAT to do about it.

We live in a society which is intensively consumerist, constantly receiving media messages which are pure avarice. The young generation swim in a sea of celeb culture, conspicuous consumption and for entertainment we spend our time watching dog-eat-dog reality TV and violent crime films, programmes and computer games. This culture is IMHO fundamentally immoral, often sick and imbues a twisted sense of right & wrong and an insensitivity to violence and exploitation.

Meanwhile in order to succeed in a career, you need to have had the right background and opportunities - come from the wrong side of the tracks particularly at the monent and you're not going anywhere.

Morality used to be the business of the Church and politicians confined themselves to affairs of state, but the secularisation of society and the replacement of god by money, of worship with avarice and the mantra that "greed is good".

And in a world of MPs who defraud the taxpayer, of bankers getting 拢40,000 for every man, woman & child in the UK, who can be surprised that many see others with their snouts in the trough, they feel little to hold them back either?

Yes that is wrong, but the general moral climate of a country is heavily influenced by those with political and economic power - the rest of us just soak it up - we don't control investment decisions, we can't curb ther banks or protect ourselves from th hypocritical criminals who get elected as MPs only to fiddle their expenses. Perhaps if the people in the City responsible for the banking crisis were prosecuted and sent to jail, then maybe this might send the right sort o

DAVE SPEAKS - BUT JUST WHAT DRIVES DAVE?

Dave says deprived families never sit round to eat and discuss. Barrie says if they did, they might decide to send the kid to boarding-school to hone a more accomplish 'operator'. Do boarding-school kids have a father on hand? I heard they struggle with their (perceived) BANISHMENT from home and have to HARDEN UP.

It is what we do - The Ape Confused by Language - it is well known. The hurt child (of all ages) tries to find a way to make itself feel 'OK', if only for a short time. (Think booze sales.) To a hurt mind, a spell looting a shop can be attractive - hence the smiles.) Politics might well attract some - control of others is a heady wine.

THE WRONG PEOPLE ARE IN CHARGE - I CALL A FOR A MORE FUNDAMENTAL CLEAN-UP

continued again - got this blog engine is naff..

Yes that is wrong, but the general moral climate of a country is heavily influenced by those with political and economic power - the rest of us just soak it up - we don't control investment decisions, we can't curb ther banks or protect ourselves from th hypocritical criminals who get elected as MPs only to fiddle their expenses. Perhaps if the people in the City responsible for the banking crisis were prosecuted and sent to jail, then maybe this might send the right sort of message?

It's not the welfare state that has failed inner city areas - it's merely a sticking plaster - it's the private sector which has exported manufacturing jobs to the other side of the planet to make a few people even richer than they are already.

It's nice to know that your "house organ" - the Daily Mail - is still owned by the same family who trumpeted "Hooray for the Blackshirts!" in the 1930s - some things don't ever really change, do they?

problem families

bankers, hedge funds etc who broke society for a generation are problem families? and given no laws have been passed can legally trash the uk economy again?

what about the bullingdon families?

or is it only poor people who should be hounded?

in our day our Dad used to flog us from dusk till dawn and then all over again in case he missed anybody then he sent us out to work down t'pit there was no coal there just a pit and we didn't dare come up for air until it were safe to do so, we had no tea, no dinner and we would salvage scraps from poor boys home up t'road no playstations for us, no telly's, no mobiles and no pillows...just rocks but we didn't riot as we didn't know how to, had no time as our Dad was always birchin us, and our Mam was no help as she did evrything he said, she knew her place which was usually under the mangle or cleaning out t'pit, don't know they're born these days.....I'd give 'em bloody playstations.....

The permanent consumer is just as spiritually dispossessed as the permanent slave (a.k.a producer).

Mankind is not wired to be either, but to manage the inherent tension between 鈥減roducing鈥� and 鈥渃onsuming鈥�. Both defined in the true thermodynamic sense; consumption is entropy increasing, such as the pleasure / reward received through the destruction of something useful (eating food / a log fire for warmth / driving my car), whereas production is entropy decreasing, therefore the active creation of something useful for oneself or others to enjoy (hunting for food / cooking a meal / improving one鈥檚 garden or home / doing an honest day鈥檚 work etc.).

Cont.....

In my mind a healthy human spirit is one where there is a fair balance between consuming & producing (therefore entropically in equililbrium, i.e. a stable and sustainable state). To only produce is to become little more than a slave, but to only consume is just as destructive for the soul. Hence why money / welfare / handouts doesn鈥檛 always make people happy.

See how easy it was to accuse the native inhabitants of the USA or Australia as lazy, alcoholic welfare bums. But this was most likely a consequence of their inherent way of life being dispossessed. Temptation in the garden of Eden led them to forfeit their delicate equilibrium of give and take.

By peddling the pointless treadmill of consumerist & debt based consumption we have dispossessed a generation or more of their ability to produce and to contribute.

What an unholy price for profits this has been.

ANOTHER GLOBAL COMAND AND CONTROL GRID INEXORABLY FORMING?

It's Earth Jim but not as we've known it. The Ape Confused by Language is not evolved for the world as it now is, let alone further magnifired by Google aberrance.

One way or another, the centre surely canot hold.

This is potentially the next trigger for riots, yet more unfair taxes on the poor !

NOT QUITE FREUDAIN SLIPS - MORE FREUDIAN FAUX PAS

"Slow motion moral collapse"

"Twisted Moral Code."

"Absence of self-restraint."

Who CAN Dave be thinkning of?

MAX KEISER - THE PEOPLE'S SPEAKER FOR THE COMMONS (#19)

Keiser not a million miles from my post #8. Thanks Bro, said from USA, very telling.

So many "As above so below" (Westminster - mean streets) parallels are emerging. This is why I visualise a 'resonance' of one set of hurt, nihilistic, needy, minds with another. (When the Big Bad Westminster 'tuning fork' gives out bad vibes, no matter how they disguise them, the RESONANCE MUST BE ABSORBED, by any fork tuned to the same frequency - no matter how far removed, culturally.

Not the sort of thought a minister wants to be bothered by on his way to the theatre.

As I've said before, Westerwelle may be foreign minister, but he doesn't really speak for the German govt any more, nor even for his own party since having to resign from the leadership after the FDP Spring election fiascos. He will be gone and forgotten by the New Year.

The key man now in Germany is Wolfgang Sch盲uble, the CDU finance minister. There were two relevant interviews in Spiegel today, one with George Soros advocating Euro-bonds, and another with Sch盲uble opposing the idea - at least under present conditions. In reality, Sch盲uble played a very straight bat, and there was rather less between the two positions than met the eye.





Incidentally, Sch盲uble's qualifications and experience are impressive compared with George Osborne, as is the care with which he expressed himself in the interview.

What nobody in a major position has done yet, apart from Mervyn King, is address the fact that a major part of the debt crisis is caused by the ability of private banks to create most of the money in existence out of nothing, and charge interest upon it. This must sooner or later be addressed - preferably sooner.

29

#15 &16

Good stuff Hawkeye.

Max Keiser is on good form too it seems.

Some entertainment on offer from Stevie as well.

But you had it lucky stevie, when I got home, my dad, he used to murder me in cold blood and dance on my grave singing hallelujah.. but if you told kids that today they wont believe you ...no.. they would just think it is a cool idea for a computer game.

@21 It has to be said Barrie, I wouldn't trust Max Keiser as far as I would throw him.

His programme on RT is amusing and informative, and certainly some of the people he interviews are honest and bona-fide. But he has his personal agenda. For example, he is always talking down "fiat currencies" in a way that talks up gold as an alternative. Gold is a peculiar thing: there is too much of it for its practical uses, but nowhere near enough to act as a currency. The gold standard was never honest, as there was never enough of it to back up all the paper - it failed for a reason. Mining and extracting it is dangerous, toxic and a waste of energy and resources which would be better spent.

Every time I hear Keiser I wonder where he has personally invested. In fact, I think that with financial journalists it's just as important as with legislators that we have a public register of interests.

RT also has its own agenda. It's "experts" are very often far from objective. Like the Soviet media in the past, RT is very good at selectively criticising the western world, often validly. But let us have no illusions: it is furthering the interests of its Kremlin paymasters who care for no-one but themselves. And their behaviour is different from, but no better than those they use RT to target.

While I am here ... #23 link.

Of course it would be just irresponsible to give all that newly created cash directly to households.. I mean that would just be a waste wouldn't it?

Much better if we call it QE so it does not sound like the government is printing new money or the next thing you know the people will be asking for some of it so they can buy a new effcient combi boiler or something to help pay their heating bills.

We cant have that now can we. How much liquidity do you want barclays 拢20 billion ... no problem just give us back some of those bonds and buy some more later when QE is finished.

GRAND COLLUSION WESTMINSTER (#26)

A simple person might think the media would chuck some of these home truths at Dave, when he's on a platform; or Limited Ed might at least put them in the spotlight. That all this chicanery is nodded through, can only mean THEY ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. We come a 'very poor' second. The game's the thing.

SPOILPARTYGAMES

So much for alleged " green " job's !

Sasha #25

May I point out that I do not always post Keiser links as as everybody knows he is a CO2 warmist, I'm not particularly into his gold and silver quasi-religion either. However, he does occasionally does make some really good points, but like Alex Jones he has to put out false flag Corporate Nazi inspired propaganda aimed at all the usefull idiots out there or be taken off the air.

As for your register of interests perhaps some posters on here should declare their outside interests / history, its apparently all too easy to start wallowing in victim status for some people.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Richard bunnings responding to a poster:

"I can find many echoes of your sentiments in political discourse down the years - this was exactly the sort of rhetoric a certain Bavarian housepainter used in the beer cellars of Munich in the 1930s, the same justifications by Franco, Musollini and Oswald Moseley to "sweep the streets clean".


All fascists we can all agree. A little more historical knowlege but not normally given by the teachers - will also tell you the Nazi Partys early policies resembled very socialist ideals. National socialism...there is also a clue in the name.

Now that we've covered that, what about Pol Pot or Chairman Moe..how about Stalin. What I see sometimes on these pages resemble the rhetoric that those socialists gave in pursuit of their madness.

Marxism at a base level is always favoured by the lazy by the way. Just thought I'd throw that one in.

#25 Sasaha

Hear, hear!

Just like Alex Jones, you just cannot be sure whose agenda he is pushing. If push came to shove, I think he is on our side, but you can never be too sure.

ALL POINTS TAKEN SASHA (#25)

And put with good grace. (Sad that, in your final para one might substitute '大象传媒' for RT.)

I am just a man drowning in need for the Party Game Illusion to be sundered. Watching Dave 'in politics to improve the lives of others' has done my 'ed in.

I'll adjust my Keiser Billing.

Here we go folks, Kirsty's going off on the 'it's all the fault of the cuts' route. Well done 大象传媒, out of step with the public mood as ever. And nice one Ed Milliband, just what we need, A PUBLIC ENQUIRY! Has Labour got a policy on anything? Oh, and gather the nose operation didn't work - what a twerp he is and what golden opportunity he is missing to get in touch with middle class opinion. But no, he's ducked it and reverted to being Red Ed.

@29 I wasn't referring to your posts; I was referring to Barrie's comment "THE PEOPLE'S SPEAKER FOR THE COMMONS".

Just because people are right about many things, doesn't make them suitable for public office. You have to consider whether they are trustworthy, and that's completely different matter. Keiser's views are usually worth listening to, so long as one is aware that there might be an angle.

Re "perhaps some posters on here should declare their outside interests / history" please name names - put up or shut up!

Moderation seems abnormally slow tonight?

@32 "Marxism at a base level is always favoured by the lazy by the way.." If this were intended as a serious point and not a wind-up, I'd be demanding evidence. But you enjoy your wind-ups don't you?

As a general point, I sometimes quote from the Bible, but I'm neither Christian nor Jew. But amongst the ordure, superstition and genocide, there are pearls of wisdom and literature to be found in both testaments; also a valuable, if biassed, historical source.

"In much wisdom there is much grief: he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow" is a favourite quote of mine from Ecclesiastes.

Pol Pot may have found his perverted inspiration in Marx, but the Inquistion and the Conquistadores found theirs in Jesus. The Russian Orthodox Church encouraged Ivan the Terrible's crimes against his people. Their actions say little about Marx or Jesus, but much about the perpetrators and the perversity of human nature.

However, when people make a valid point, helped by a quote, as Richard did, it's a common dishonest trick to divert the discussion by asking them to defend something they weren't advocating.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I'm sad to say that Stiglitz was as clear as mud on NN tonight.

Why?

NONE SO BLIND

In 2007 Oliver James wrote a 'best seller': AFFLEUENZA. No one who read it is surprised that a definable part of our society is sick. But money and power are one, in Westminster politics; the sick rule.

Tonight NeswyNighty rose somewhat, guesting a social psychologist (I was elated - could this be gravitas?) she did OK but the other guy seemed to be a Tory defence man - yes?

Good as far as it went NewsyNighty - please get Oliver James in.

ANOTHER WORTHY POST (#38)

Much to agree with Sasha. The Ecclesiastes quote unkknown to me.

Your final comment about 'defending something they weren't advocating' is 'pure' Dave, and before him Blair. The sort of behaviour that gets you promoted in Westminster . . .

There are dozens of Nobel laureates in economics alive today, and some of them are even worth listening to. How come the 大象传媒 can only get hold of that charlatan Joe Stiglitz, with cameos occasionally for the equally discredited Krugman and Sachs? Is it because their views fit with the 大象传媒's world view, whereas credible economists would present some hard truths that the 大象传媒 would rather not have aired?

@Richard Bunning


"Let's consider getting tough - In my experience prision works in two ways - it keeps offenders off the streets for as long as they remain locked up, but it also provides what is in effect a University of Crime, where inmates network, teach each other scams, build their mental and pyhsical strength - then re-emerge much more effective criminals."




Then that is surely an argument for even longer sentences so when or if they are released they will be far too old to be even comptemplate committing any further crimes?

Where there is a genuine political will, there is a way as, after all, the perpetrators are the tiniest portion of society. There may have been a couple of Thousand people involved in the Rioting & Looting in London but they are eclipsed by the Millions who were not.

"barriesingleton wrote:

NONE SO BLIND

In 2007 Oliver James wrote a 'best seller': AFFLEUENZA. No one who read it is surprised that a definable part of our society is sick. But money and power are one, in Westminster politics; the sick rule."


If you actually read it then you would be well aware that it is incoherent, evidence-free psycho-babble from a so-called Psychologist who even refuses to accept the vast amounts of Empirical evidence that support Genetic causes for Schizophrenia.

I take it absent fathers through separated families within the Tory party aren't the same liability to their offspring as in poorer communities.

I take it morality is a grace entirely possessed by the Right Honourable David Cameron and the ranks of the coalition government, and from this state of grace they are in a position to guide us through the valley of the shadow.

I take it the government is already in the process of publishing a booklet detailing the principles of morality and how they should be applied.

Obviously the church has fallen well short in these matters.

It's so good to be living in this dawning age of the new enlightenment and we await further instructions on how to be better people.

Any second now ex-bank chief, Sir Fred Goodwin will donate all his earthly wealth to charity.

The Big Society as envisaged by our saviour. Three cheers!

YOU HAVE AN INTRIGUING NAME LORD HORROR (#46)

That Schizophrenia is a daunting phenomenon, of arguable genesis, probably bears little on the validity on James' postulated 'Affluneza'.

Regards - Barrie Singleton

OH GOD NO! NOT A BOOKLET!! PLEEEEESE NOT A BOOKLET!!! (#47)

If Dave read your post, restassured, what would his response be? Dismissal out of hand? Bewilderment? Contempt? Epiphany?

THIS IS A LOUD FLAG-UP OF THE BROSSEN99 POST #44



Would ANY PART OF 大象传媒 ever feature this nasty little enclave?

Could this be the SICK PART OF ENGLAND Dave needs to cure FIRST?

(#49) barriesingleton

Government is not complete without a guidance booklet. Like the ones we received in the event of nuclear war. "Cover the windows with white sheets and take refuge under the dining table".

If Dave read the posts on this blog, he'd realise we're all damned (or most of us) to hellfire!

I like quotes too Sahsa. Heres one I use somethimes when making a valid point:

'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'

Heres another one I like:

'A man once defined hell as a place where there is no reason'

I usually follow both of them up with:

'and thats why Liberalism is a mental disorder.'

Newsnight did attempt some balance in Mondays edition which is nice. I know it ain't a natural place for you to come from but you did try.. so a bit of credit is due there. Well done!

Having now seen Paul's piece, I'm struck by how self-help oganisations in communities under acute stress come into being and function.

Firstly, we know from the crime statistics that THE most vulnerable group to violent crime is: young males.

We also know that the high status people in underclass communities are broadly criminals usually involved in drugs, where they get their money - entrepreneurs, but criminal ones.

In order to have safety and begin on the greasy pole of building a career, young men join a particular gang for protection and to earn some money through running drugs, pushing retail bags or petty "enforcement" roles whic earn them brownies points with the gangmaster.

Given that drugs are a reality and that there is usually precious little option in an environment where 50% young males are out of work and the remaining 50% are mostly on min. wages, is it really any wonder why gang membership is such a significant factor in these communities, when turf wars are a constant factor that can mean a severe beating without safety in numbers?

Given no realistic alternative other than to run away, take regular beatings and/or pay protection money, many if not most young males join and aspire to make it as a local gang boss themselves - that's the reality of personal ambition on the streets.

My point is that this is the "Big Society" in action in underclass Britain - it mirrors the social and economic structures which grew up in prohibition America of gangs being the dominant controlling factor due to their economic power and their ability to use force rapidly and effectively and the Mafia in making common cause in the face of discrimination.

If there is little or no legitimate business able to provide jobs at a decent living wage, then the illegal economy fills the vacuum - and it works through a combination of carrot - a cut of the drugs money/rackets - and stick - step out of line and we will come down on you hard.

So a "shadow" society emerges - one that protects and policies itself - creates "employment" and cash coming in for its young males and gives them the hope of progressing in the organisation to a higher earning role. This society respects violence and is prepared to use it against outsiders coming in, or their own who step out of line.

This gang society is often deeply sexist because it is defined by the male gender's propensity to use force, so lacks balance and denigrates women.

I think the right answer is for the state to do something to provide a real%2

continued

I think the right answer is for the state to do something to provide a real alternative to the gangs - and that starts by breaking their economic grip on young men by investing in creating jobs in their communities either directly or through incentives to the private sector, then we need to empower women in these communities to resist thje drugs & violent culture - I particularly remember "the Mothers of Courage" Naples who confronted drug dealers in the streets in the 1990s.

Finally we need to recognise that Cameron's "Broken Britain" moved on to become "Smashed Britain" with the riots precisely because we have left the communities to the law of the gun, intimidation, extortion and thr massive drugs industry which is often THE only source of money around. When a sizeable minority - or in some cases a majority - of young males in an area are gang members, the idea of more proactive policing being able to subdue the gangs is laughable.

Providing training for real job opportunities that pay a decent wage is THE essential prerequisite to any hope of change - without it, all there is is "the Big Boss Society" - when there is no legitimate alternative to the criminal economy young men are driven into the arms of the gangs.

Heavy handed policing, stiffer sentences and denying welfare benefits simply cements the power of the gang leaders and reinforces the seige mentality.

I do hope the US SuperCop comes and says this loud and clear - he's already makimg the right noises - this could be a BIG shot-in-foot exercise by the look of it.

One last point:

Criminal gangs masqueraded as "loyalists" or "republicans" in N. Ireland for many years - some still do so, but it was only when the powerhouse of economic growth, jobs and a rising standard of living really kicked in that the support for the gangs melted away and politics replaced the gun and the riot.

We tried internment, longer prison sentences, harsher policing - in the end it was having a stake in legitimate society that changed things.

#53/55 Richard
Much to agree with there, although our empathies seem to be at different ends of the spectrum of our society. On the subject of 鈥榙isadvantaged youth鈥� I could make the point that in my impoverished youth I was a member of many 鈥榞angs鈥�, such as Cubs, Scouts, Boys鈥� Brigade, Cyclist Touring Club, and Air Training Corps, and that I depended on the black economy of newspaper rounds (often in the dark!) window cleaning, helping delivery men and small jobs for neighbours.

But I only mention this in line with #29 brossen99鈥檚 suggestion 鈥榯hat bloggers should declare their outside interests/ history鈥� (a point always disputed by jj for those who remember him/her, but it does help to know whether posts are based on real-life experience as opposed to book-learning).

With regard to your solution:-
鈥樷��.providing training for real job opportunities that pay a decent wage is THE essential prerequisite to any hope of change鈥�,
I have yet to see any responses to my claim that there must be a finite limit on the ability of our society to 鈥榗reate real jobs鈥� 鈥� as opposed to Gordon鈥檚 creation of mock public service jobs to placate (and defuse the alien demands of) certain immigrant voters.

Turning to your comment #12 on 15th Aug on the Daily Mail:
鈥�
It's nice to know that your "house organ" - the Daily Mail - is still owned by the same family who trumpeted "Hooray for the Blackshirts!" in the 1930s - some things don't ever really change, do they?鈥�

As a child of the 鈥�30s I would have to point out that most newspapers do really change their views and policies over the centuries e.g. The Times no longer advertises slaves for sale on its front page.

Sasha also slated this newspaper prefering to quote even older sources from the sages of the dark ages -

鈥榯here are pearls of wisdom and literature to be found in both testaments鈥�

But I鈥檓 glad that posters, such as ecolizzy and others, often bring significant disclosures to our attention from 鈥楾he Daily Wail鈥� and other such sources. With the demise of the News of the World (too much power in the hands of News International) we did lose one valuable, albeit too aggressive, source of investigative journalism which often shed light on those who also hold, and wield, too much clandestine power in our society.

And whilst on the subject of the media, I would like to compliment the 大象传媒 (often slated on our blogs) on the new series 鈥極cean Giants鈥�. Another excellent natural history documentary that should remind us all that in Nature even giant species are both prey and predator and that they migrate freely around the planet, without occupying or taking root in another species domain. Homosap seems to be the one species that is out-of-step with 鈥榥atural鈥� behaviour?

As an atheist believing in harmony with Mother Nature, I would be interested to learn from those who base their beliefs and values on ancient sources of religious teachings whether such learned texts praise or condemn human migration, and the integration or separation of different cultures.

THE SHALLOW POLITICAL OPORTUNISTIC TAKE, ON NORMAL BEHAVIOUR

When the rats who function outside the rat-race channels, are not involved in a '10 year event', they shove trolleys in water-courses, burn park furniture, snap off wing mirrors and saplings, push over walls, kick-in fences, and distribute food-and-drink packing.

For years - decades - we grey ciphers, who tamely ran the rat-race and paid our taxes to governments (who - ironically - used much of it to smash the homeland of Johnnie Foreigner) usually within 24 hours, repair the offence to eye and nature, ALWAYS HOPING DAVE WILL NOT NOTICE, AND TRY TO TAKE CREDIT.

THE WRONG PEOPLE ARE IN POWER - ACCESS WISDOM

#44

Ah ha, me old ship mate! Me thinks ye just fingered the real looters, and whereth the booty be stashed.

Onward-ho!

The question is a philosophical not a political one.
"What is the benefit to the individual of being moral"
I have not heard any of your speakers or presenters address this flaw in our culture.

#25 Sasha

Some fair points about Keiser(Soze?), Sasha.

However, he & Stacy have been open about their vested interests. They have stated that they are about 90% invested in Gold & Silver. They see this as the ultimate hedge against inflation.

I doubt very much that they get an income from external vested interests (apart from website advertising), so they appear not to "shill" for anyone else.

Yes, RT may have an agenda somewhere in this. But there appears to be no editorial oversight whatsoever on his show. Everything he says on his (personal) website he says on air. Unfortunately I can't say this of some 大象传媒 commentators whose on air "set pieces" appear scripted and supervised by their handlers.

His guests are usually excellent, open-minded and (somewhat refreshingly) are given the time and freedom to convey their views and analysis.

The Keiser Report and The Real News Network truly expose our mainstream media news for the Corporately controlled tabloid tat that it is.

A wider point that needs some contemplation is the effect on us all of the internet revolution. Moving from information being presented and consumed to information being circulated and contested, tweeted and retweeted in simplistic infobites, is a transformation we have not yet comprehended. This shift has a profound impact on democracy in its amplification of perceived injusice. We have seen this in the middle east, in London earlier this year, and now all over the uk. Why shouldn't I have what you have? It's not fair. - A childish response, but fundamentally we are all children, even those who pretend tyo be outraged adults.

PERFIDIOUS ALBION - 'PRIVATEERS' - TURN NOT TO THE DAVE-SIDE (#58)

Hear hear Hawkeye. Bro99 is the one to watch.

As I have suggested, recent events breached the Westminster Citadel. It's dark interior is visible and its even darker connections (some to ancient times of Gothic inhumanity) are becoming apparent.

We must not allow the Dave-Side to re-establish its stranglehold on The Light.

DISMANTLE WESTMINSTER - DEMAND HONOUR

#59 Iain

"What is the benefit to the individual of being moral"

I think you just hit the nail on the head there.

Morality is a social convention. It is neccessary to achieve the principle of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. We can't really have rampant Individualism and Morality at the same time (the feral Capitalists have demonstrated this).

Humans have to balance between Compete and Co-operate.

In times of genuine economic and environmental growth prospects the Co-operate strategy can rise all boats in a Society.

But in times of stress on growth prospects, then a Compete strategy is likely to emerge, unless severly checked by social codes.

We have had individualism thrust on us by the powers that be. Under the likely decline conditions we'll be facing, it is like pouring petrol on a smouldering fire.

The Wall of Illusions is starting to crack:

I can't think of a word to say....

Essex police charge man over water fight planned on BlackBerry Messenger


We used to use empty washing-up liquid bottles in my day. If you were feeling particularly evil, you didn't wash the bottle thoroughly before use.

More speechlessness....

THE WESMINSTER DAVE-STAR IS INTENT ON GETTING BACK TO FULL POWER

We are being encouraged to chase secondary issues - fight over symptoms, argue over solutions - while the centre of power is repaired. Then we will all be gathered to the Dave-Side. It is almost identical to 'coming to love big Brother'.

"ALL THAT IS REQUIRED IS THAT GOOD MEN DO NOTHING"

Boris Johnson had already been involved in a scheme (BEFORE the recent riots) to help troubled kids, who lack a strong father figure, with homework, reading and sports activities.



Such a shame this wasn't more widely publicized in the media :o(

THE LUCIFER EFFECT IS UBIQUITOUS (#66)

Hi Lizzy. The Stamford Prison Experiment (Zimbardo) was 'written up' in a book called "The Lucifer Effect". Big, expensive, and with a title like that it could have been a pointless piece of Rushdi. Rushdi would have got more 大象传媒 time - there is our problem for social recovery.

In simple terms (you know this) we all have 'misdemeanour' in us. Presented with OPPORTUNITY (particularly with no time to 'prepare') many are caught out. Pompous judicial officialdom, no exception.

Recent Biblical quoters here, would point to 'caste the first stone'.

LIZZY! ARE YOU TRYING TO BLOW MY ROFL CIRCUITS? (#66)

Surely Boris is the epitome of 'Chaotic Dad'?

His greatest accolade is surely GALL. He still comes home to a caring wife.

This country, its elite, its priorities and its preoccupations must be incomprehensible to the sane world.

the inner policeman

the bishop is right. if you don't know how the inner policeman is formed how you going to help those who don't have one?

the politicians [and others] ignored this point because its clear many of them had no inner policeman themselves?

currently people with an inner bandit are praised as the preferred model of lifestyle.

[i've been talking about the inner policeman for over 10 years.]

both bankers and hoodies had no inner policeman


Vet the Met

the met leadership must be suspect given the cash for information scandal. They talk about a police service [that deals with things after the event] while the public talk about wanting a police force [which is focussed on prevention and strong intervention]

See Shell's oil spills on the sea shore

[from newsbicuit]

@60 - All fair comment Hawkeye, and I largely agree. The prominence given by Keiser to Bill Black and others is commendable. Black is someone I WOULD trust in public office BTW.

I don't think that there is such a thing as a impeccable source of news. Even with the better media, one must never totally abandon one's scepticism. Keiser is very reliable in his exposures of fraud and malpractice, but in the end he has the mindset of a stockbroker, and he isn't really interested in economics.

Changing the subject, here is a view from Vienna, which ties in with many of the other links on here. (Thanks to those posting the 'Staggers' Shaxson article BTW.)



I've only just discovered presseurop - it seems an excellent source - I would happily make a financial contribution to some of these on-line news sources - on the same basis as supporting Linux and open source software.

Rioting

Isn't it strange that forty years ago, riotous mobs destroying other peoples property and attacking law abiding citizens was a rare thing in England, now its once , twice or even three times every decade.

Anyone could be forgiven for concluding that the Riot Act was indeed an effective deterrent against such behaviour.

Oh btw , councils can not arbitrary evict tenants from their council housing , the council has to take their tenants to court for first.

Euro Crisis Cont'

A recent yougov poll showed that 59pc of Germans oppose all further bail-outs, and 44pc want Germany to withdraw from EMU.

As for Eurobonds , how is that going to help ?
The EU Commission will have to control every Euro members tax,borrowing and spending plans, how will that pass the democratic accountability test for the differing peoples involved ?

Looking back at the USA experience , it took a civil war to firmly establish the primacy of the federal government over the states.

Not a nice thought huh.

A different solution could be that the and the start a new currency union , as originally intended. Let the others catch up on productivity over the coming decade or more , then join the currencies together again , with democratic backing this time.

OTS , is UKIP banned from the Euro crisis debates ?

NICK (A signature is only for the election) TAKES UP THE DISHONOURED BATON

"Offenders should face victims" (and face up to what they have done, presumably.)

I am reminded of recent pictures of Nick being ushered into his car to avoid 'the offended'.

Nuff sed.

financial times, NY Daily News.......Marx was right after all....wow, stop the press...call the police....