大象传媒

'Auf Wiedersehen England! reads Germany's Der Speigel newspaper today. They may not be quite right about their geography, but are they correct to say that Europe is waving the UK goodbye?'

If they are not too clear on who they are waving goodbye to, maybe anything they come out with is open to question on value?

'we ask if the deal that David Cameron vetoed will have the required impact'

I'm sorry, but the tenses here don't compute.

Of all the 'leaders' NN could have put out tonight inviting a blog discussion - after all that has been done & said today - that is very poor NN - if you're trying to invite some comments on here.

Very poor show NN - Why should anyone waste their time posting anything more than (1) & this?

OK I'm trying anyway even if NN is not doing so

The Importance of EU trade with the EU?

A little discussed aspect of UK trade with EU is that a fair amount of that & our only main EU trade surplus is with the Replublic of Ireland.

When this is highlighted against a decade of poor UK performance with EU & also significance of FI/City of London surplus with EU - the much pumped up UK EU trade importance issue is a stupid lie peddled to the ignorant by those with an EU vested interest?

This much vaunted lie about the importance of EU trade for the UK - is a gross & msiplaced exaggeration & is a con peddled by vested interests to deceive the UK ignorant majority?

Our only main real UK interest in the EU is that our bloated City of London wayward spivving banks have leant out so much money to the PIIGS that - if they go down with the Euro - the UK has to finance further significant rescues & bail out of big UK based globalised banks or try & let them fail.

Can Ms Flanders &/or Mr Mason please address the points at issue?

The importance of our relationship with the EU is well stated but grossly over-stated?

Our key relationship in the UK is & has always been with the USA - not the EU?

UK performance with the EU is and has always been an overall disaster?

How can anyone in their right mind want more of this EU straightjacket nonsense and ignore ROW in strategic & operational, national economic terms?

Not english

met win prize for talking gobbledegook.

/news/uk-16100112

if you have nothing to say pad it out with co2. [hot air]

Me again - sorry

99.9% of media and at 大象传媒 and in UK Parliament miss the point about UK's membership of the EU - while it is an important relationship in some measures - in terms of UK national output & cost - it is an unmitigated national economic disaster?

I don't expect this to sink in at the 大象传媒 as the EU problem for the UK is exposure to the EU as UK is losing out big time but the rheotoric is ignorant, I'm afraid?

When is 大象传媒 going to try & properly evaluate the benefits & costs to the UK of EU membership?

The reality is that UK membership of the EU is a DISASTER in strategic economic terms?

There's always twitter

'@SPIEGEL_English SPIEGEL English
'Cameron Is a Coward': European Politicians Slam British EU Veto.'...



And, for balance...

Terry Smith:

Clegg sounding off again about how crucial EU top table representation is to the UK etc - this is an evil, ignorant lie.

Reality is the more exposure the UK has to the EU, the more that British people lose out.

UK is uncompetitive & out of sync with most of EU & more EU = more costs, losses & pain.

We/UK has has generally been cajoled into this EU project & is important but the rhetoric as to how & why it is important and the costs benefits risks & pitfalls are still not understood or explained.

Success in the EU means being mutually dependent, highly competitive and convergent in many more ways than talked about on here or by Paul Mason or Stephanie Flanders - I'm sorry but the 大象传媒 isn't even scratching the surface here.

Most don't question why UK membership of the EU is talked about by nearly all & sundry as a huge UK success when in reality it is a huge economic & social disaster for the UK.

To 'get there', the economics editors need to delve into the figures a lot more & provide a useful analysis?

WHEN WE GET REDUCED TO THIRD WORLD, EXTRA KIDS WILL COME HANDY



Necessity is the mother of contention.

MEANWHILE IN THE FOG OF WAR WITH EUROPE

While all eyes are focused on Derring-do Dave; Magic Huhne will be casting a long Carbon shadow (ably assisted by Debbie McWatts) in spite of ever mounting evidence and ever more probing questions. It's very 9/11.

FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT: "9/11" - MEANING (#9)

"9/11": A theory held by corrupt officialdom/government, long since shot to ribbons by sound investigation and evidence, THAT MAINSTREAM MEDIA WILL NOT TOUCH.

Also called a binLaden. . .

;o) No comment

There's a lot of stridently expressed opinion and negligible fact on this blog tonight!

Here are some figures for UK trade:

Exports - partners:
US 11.4%, Germany 11.2%, Netherlands 8.5%, France 7.7%, Ireland 6.8%, Belgium 5.4% (2010)

Imports - partners:
Germany 13.1%, China 9.1%, Netherlands 7.5%, France 6.1%, US 5.8%, Norway 5.5%, Belgium 4.9% (2010)

Source: CIA - The World Factbook


So as a trading partner, the EU as a whole is rather more important than the US.
True we have a trade deficit with the rest of the world, especially with Germany. But that is because they have invested in manufacturing rather than financial so-called "services".

The true disaster for the UK over the last five years has been the City of London and its very close dependency with the even bigger cancer on the world economy that is Wall Street.

One last thought. If British engineering were truly dead, and we had to import, for reliability and quality I'd sooner have German than US products anyday!

DOES OUR BORROWING AT A SWANKY 2% HELP FUND DODGY AID?

Knowing, first hand, JUST HOW CORRUPT our governance is AS I DO! - corrupt to the tip of its tentacles - I can predict with some certainty, there will be 'creaming off' all the way down the chain with probable 'feed-back' to party coffers.



I assert that PARTY POLITICS is causative in corruption. Money is power and power-with-money shamelessly SHAMELESSLY manipulates/bribes, selected parts of the electorate, TO GAIN PARTY ADVANTAGE. Look at the stunts Cameron has pulled VISIBLY and ask what might have gone unseen?

Nuff sed

BRITAIN IS AN UNMITIGATED DISGRACE

@13 Western commentators have often, rightly, castigated the post-Soviet Russian system as "oligarchic" and as "crony capitalism" run by a "kleptocracy".

When Mr Cameron goes to Brussels explicitly identifying British interest as "defending our financial services industry", and this said "industry" provides more than 50% of the money for his party*, can we say that our system is any better?

*source:

Mitt Romney may well become the next US president. This article contains a little about his business record, not as an industrialist, but as a corporate raider/leveraged buyout specialist.



The Eurozone has made a complete dogs breakfast of the current crisis, and has made the mistake of letting the tentacles of the "vampire squid" get a grip on its policy. BUT, for all their error, Euro leaders have not bought the "make money not things" philosophy. Frau Merkel is attempting to promote German interests. Mr Cameron is promoting the interests of the relatively few Britons who are a 5th column for the Wall St imperialists.

12.
At 20:59 9th Dec 2011, Sasha Clarkson wrote:


There's a lot of stridently expressed opinion and negligible fact on this blog tonight!

Here are some figures for UK trade:

Exports - partners:
US 11.4%, Germany 11.2%, Netherlands 8.5%, France 7.7%, Ireland 6.8%, Belgium 5.4% (2010)

Imports - partners:
Germany 13.1%, China 9.1%, Netherlands 7.5%, France 6.1%, US 5.8%, Norway 5.5%, Belgium 4.9% (2010)

++

You're quite right as the figures you have quoted are stridently inaccurate & as do not show 100% of trade?

大象传媒 News at 10 tonight just said that Cameron was demanding the freedom to regulate to The City MORE than its competetitors at the EU summit.


....大象传媒, don't make me laugh!!!

The majority of voters voted for parties which supported EU membership - so there is no mandate for this pointless act of guesture politics which did not stop the rest of the 26 nations implementing their plan without the UK - only Nick Clegg's failure to use his veto allowed Cameron to ab use the UK's.

Paddy Ashdown finally announced his detachment from blind support for Nick Clegg's leadership earlier today in an interview with the Guardian:

"The deep and sustained anti-European prejudice of some in the Tory party backed by anti-European papers has now created anti-British prejudice in Europe, especially in Paris.

There will be a huge price to pay, and as a consequence the foreign policy priorities of this country for the past 40 years has gone down the plughole in a single night. That foreign policy has now been hijacked by the Eurosceptics in the Conservative party aided by a prime minister who was not prepared to stand up for the national interest. As a consequence we have lost control of the European agenda and the prime minister has lost control of the demands for a referendum."

At the moment of maximum risk of a complete meltdown, the UK is now left sitting in the waiting room outside as the rest of Europe decides what to do to prevent a tidal wave of defaults, bank busts and a deep, longlasting depression taking hold. I'm no fan of an EU superstate or austerity - but without a seat at the top table we will have no way to influence the future.

But neither are the "euroseptics" (get out ASAP) or the eurosceptics (reform from within) going to be happy with just this. Cameron came back empty handed - but he played the only card he has - the veto - and got nothing for it - they scent blood and will push even harder to force Cameron even further down this road.

The LibDems as the most europhile party will be wondering just what planet Nick Clegg comes from - and finally realising it's been Planet Tory all along. Ashdown's outburst must be the starting gun on the break up of the coalition - Lord Oakshott's slagging of the government further butrresses the view that it is now only a matter of time until there is a rebellion in the LibDem ranks.

Take all the pro EU MPs and set them against the Antis and I doubt there is a majority left in the Commons to support Cameron, if his own europhiles - although few in number - rebel. If Cameron doesn't suceed in reigning in the rightwing of his party, it may well come to a complete split with LibDems, SNP, Plaid, Labour & pro EU Tories voting

#12Sasha wrote:

'The true disaster for the UK over the last five years has been the City of London and its very close dependency with the even bigger cancer on the world economy that is Wall Street.'

I think most will agree. Time to end UK's obsession with bankers and stock exchange gambling, creating little of real value (other than financial gains to some based on equivalent loss by others). We have wasted years struggling with the ideology of a united Europe whilst ignoring our previous strong relationship with the Commonwealth - a far larger market that we once enjoyed.

Now that we have started to break out from EU domination, we should re-build our trade (alongside our aid) with our Commonwealth partners. China and Arab countries have recognised the potential there that UK has neglected. Whilst our present Queen is still recognised and respected as the Head of Commonwealth we have a limited window of opportunity to be a leading member in this huge market, in which we have far more in common. The original EU trade co-operative is set to grow into even more of a massive power-hungry control monster and UK should take this opportunity to take back control of our own sovereignty (eg immigration and legislation) and broaden our horizons on a world scale with the Commonwealth.

The interests of these people are the ones that Cameron was tying to promote at the EU summit in Brussels...


INSIDE JOB
/iplayer/episode/b0183l0t/Storyville_20112012_Inside_Job/

If you haven鈥檛 seen this film before your next 1hr 41mins will not be wasted.

BTW - The rest of us are expendable.

@15 "the figures you have quoted are stridently inaccurate"

Provide better ones then!

continued

Take all the pro EU MPs and set them against the Antis and I doubt there is a majority left in the Commons to support Cameron, if his own europhiles - although few in number - rebel. If Cameron doesn't suceed in reigning in the rightwing of his party, it may well come to a complete split with LibDems, SNP, Plaid, Labour & pro EU Tories voting down the government on a confidence motion.

Finally Cameron's faustian pact with the euroseptics will see his soul ripped out and his rebranded Tory Party consigned to the same fires of hell as Blair's "New" Labour.

The LibDems know they are toast if things do not change radically before the next election. Ditching Clegg and leading a fightback to restore Britain's role in Europe does give them the chance to put clear water back between their party & the Tories. Ditching Clegg, ending the Coalition and leaving Cameron running a minority government would be a start down that road.

For the LibDems the alternative is to have reneged on virtually all their core policies from student fees to rapid, deep spending cuts & the EU under Clegg. They must have a breaking point - or are they completely and utterly spineless?

To go into the next election with the economy in recession, mounting unemployment and cold shouldered by the rest of Europe spells electoral Armageddon for the LibDems - but we will still have three party politics - but the LibDems will have been replaced by UKIP - that will be Clegg's legacy - and probably the break up of the UK as the Scots give Salmond his Yes vote for independence.

Ashdown is a man of principle - he needs to openly question Celgg's leadership and begin the process of cleansing his party of the Orange Book VCabal which staged a coup d'etat through ditching the official manifesto and implementing their own through the Coalition Agreement.

DAVE SAID HE COULDN'T SIGN UP WITH A CLEAR CONSCIENCE!

What - a clear conscience like he had when he posted the fake face, printed the Liar Flyer, and when he gratuitously vilified Nick?

Is it me?

EUROPE IS STILL AT WAR - THE HITLERS AND STALINS ARE STILL PRESENT

It is just that the battlefield has changed. Different weapons, strategies and tactics, but the same Ape-driven base ambitions.

Only wisdom can elevate the Ape Confused by Language - it is in decline.

MOHAMED EL ERIAN

Why didn't he say: "Frankly my dear, I don't GIVE a damn?"

Last night on this forum, I wrote that "As for the other 'outs' ... they had better ensure that they independently have the wherewithall to swim against the euro tide as I suspect that the Eurozone members will have long memories of this crisis and will remember who was helpful and who was obstructive. "

I must admit that I did not think that the 'outs' would actually turn out to be a single member - the so-called UK and only time will tell how we English will be punished by the EU for Cameron's veto.

For example, one could envisage that a few years down the line, a newly independent Scotland being welcomed with open arms by the Eurozone.

Cameron was in a difficult spot politically from a number of angles and he has done what he has done - but us ordinary English people will pay the price for this.

If she ain't no lady, he ain't no Statesman.

PS. The Pimco chap showed exactly why he heads up a massive fund - his five points were, IMHO, spot on.

PPS. Der Speigel were only being historically consistent with Auf Wiedersehen England! in that, from the political perspective, Germany has always referenced England, with Scotland and Wales being viewed as little more than minor adjuncts to England.

12. At 20:59 9th Dec 2011, Sasha Clarkson wrote:
There's a lot of stridently expressed opinion and negligible fact on this blog tonight!

Guilty. Mind you, I was just posting the opinion of some others, by way of pointing out there are other views to those that can prevail when there's a 拢4Bpa media monopoly able to operate on a unique funding basis.

And I was not aware that facts and only facts were now the sole preserve of blogs.

But as to facts, it might be worth paraphrasing Orwell as to whose should be taken as served, especially once some start interpreting them, as with narratives and events, to suit.

I was reading some blogs, which have perked up from the the usual suspects (as here) knocking about.

/news/uk-16116902

/news/uk-politics-16116467

Interesting to check the highest and lowest rated (noting I don't find this system to my taste ethically or as much of a guide).

Probably just as well the Editors saw wisdom in avoiding 'picking'. Could have been awkward on the speaking for the nation front.

Maybe time to get the Guardian to run a poll with the LSE again to tell us all what we should be thinking on this issue?

Then a nice 'UK public say...' headline. Purely factual, natch.

I SHALL NOW EXERCISE MY 'VOLUNTEERO' IN NOT JOINING THE BIG SOCIETY

Then I shall arrange a celebration banquet - at public expense.

You can learn a lot from Dodgy Dave, as he brings a 'whole new meaning' to the word VETO.

DISMANTLE WESTMINSTER - SPOIL EUROPOLY GAMES - INSTALL INTEGRITY

STEPHANIE WRITES OF 'TEAM CAMERON' (#26 link one)

Dave orates in terms of "I decided" and even "My Parliament" (I can just see that little smile playing round the Royal Mouth).

WE GOT OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE

:p No comment

Bring back Peter Oborne on NN :o)

TORIES CLAIM 大象传媒 COVERAGE BIASED (#29 link)

Is not the FUNDAMENTAL ESSENCE OF PARTY POLITICS - BIAS? This is the CRASS of D Mock Crass Y writ very large.

Hilarity begins at home - aka in THE HOUSE. Westminster is a bad joke. If parties want no bias at the 大象传媒, then TAKE THE PARTY OUT OF POLITICS! Let's have competent STATE MANAGEMENT, in the interest of gravitas, integrity and contentment amongst the population. Foreign adventures and 'Famous Victories', can wait; they only serve the immature

SPOILPARTYGAMES

"IT'S A FLUID STORY" - FLUID AS IN 'SMALL BEER' MEASURED GLOBALLY!

Perhaps Dave should have held that Banquet, for when the running sore of the Middle East begins to show signs of healing. Not hearing much from 大象传媒 or even Special UN Envoy 'Blair of Jerusalem' (St Tony) these days; but I found this on RT:



But look how few comments! IS NEWS OF THIS HORROR BEING MANAGED? Blagger Blair was never slow to grab the headlines - for himself - why so coy when the whole world is at stake? Is he not what he seems? Who was it said: "What profit a man if he gain for himself, but neglect the whole world?" (Or similar.)

WE GOT OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE - WE HAVE TO CHOOSE MORE CAREFULLY!

20.
At 22:24 9th Dec 2011, Sasha Clarkson wrote:


@15 "the figures you have quoted are stridently inaccurate"

Provide better ones then!

++

Is not necessary for me to do this, as our respective partial analyses IMO show, in microcosm, how the Uk's membership of the Euro is never discussed in strategic economic terms.

My point is that although approx 50% of UK trade is with EU - most of that is in EU imports as UK has a significant trade deficit with EU. We don't need to be in EU to trade with Ireland - if both UK imports/export & exports with Ireland are taken out of EU trade equation - How much of UK trade with the EU is actually strategically vital EU trade?

20% - 25% ( ave over last few years?) of UK trade with EU is strategically vital, IMO as being EXPORTS - this is because most of our trade with EU is imports - most of this stuff can be purchased elsewhere in ROW if Germany, France, Netherlands have a problem with 'fringe UK' buying their produce & services.

The case for UK having all of its trade eggs in one EU basket - as is currently the case & has been for 20-30 years or more has never been explained or properly analysed by the 大象传媒, IMO.

The issue with looking at Trade statsistics is by doing so - What is anyone ever trying to prove - EU trade is obviously important to the UK but is not an immutable strategic vital priority in terms of managing the UK economy.

In other words, the UK has had the wrong focus on Europe as requires an independent cost benefit analysis of the UK membership - we never get this - we just get stridently inaccurate assumptions from europhile media like 大象传媒 like eg full & absolute kow towing to all things EU is sacrosant & absolutely necessary at all times & in all situations.

The reality of EU is in the competitiveness of various EU countries like eg UK massive trade deficit with EU - we also massive deficits of contributions and on issue like immigration - we import far more than we export with EU.

Many EU countries hardly do any trade with UK - as most of our trade is with main big 5 members - and this will not change - UK is unlikely to ever grow its trade or competitiveness with the EU - and this means stagnation for the UK economy as we have reduced focus on what UK should be doing - reaching out to ROW and finding & re-establishing new/old markets.

The problem wih EU for UK is in understanding it properly - we need to see how when & where it isn't working for us & what this means for our UK economy.

Current UK arrangements with EU mean decades and decades of stagnation for the UK as UK is now in too deep, paying/costing too much and with too little in return.

Its not just about statistics - many in UK have stridently inaccurate assumptions about the EU & of UK membership - How Britain can best limit its exposure & get a fair deal from the EU, for British workers & taxpayers.

IMO, UK will never prosper again in terms of average paid UK British worker again - while we are in EU up to our eyes (and without ever being in Euro mess) - this is how serious the issue is for the UK.

The debate on the EU has become polarised between europhiles and eurosceptics as fuelled by the Brodie-crat pro EU propaganda of the 大象传媒 - but despite our billions of 拢's spent on 大象传媒 through licence fees - we never ever get a single sensible debate on how strategic EU really is for UK, independent full social & economic costs & benefits.

So I recommend that you renanalyse your UK trade figures - take out all UK trade with Ireland and then just see how much UK trade with EU - can really be called vital in terms of the 'exports'.

When the full social & economic costs of UK EU membership are taken into account & compared with the vital UK export trade element - What do you think this will show?

COMPLICITY BETWEEN MONEY POWER AND MEDIA IS NOW ABSOLUTE

COMPLICITY BETWEEN POWER MONEY AND MEDIA IS NOW ABSOLUTE (#33)

Not only shown by the evidence of others, but from my own activities. 'Clean facts' are rare. Here is a good illustration:

EU Treaty Veto

The government had no choice , it was a deliberate attempt at getting the UK to fund the euro zone bailout and a possible ongoing commitment to any future euro zone transfer union.

If I was a betting man I would say the proposals were deliberately designed to get us to use our veto to block any EU governed solution to the euro problem. Which suits me, less potential for legal spillover.

Now the eurozone will have to sort out their own problems without EU vetoes or voting weights getting in the way of Germany salvaging what she can, and amputating which is necessary (feckless economies which refuse the structural changes required) for the euro to survive.

This is the euro zones last chance saloon.

From a observers point of view (me). I am going to get some amusement from watching the feckless economies of the eurozone getting schooled in Austrian economics, with , I have to admit, a slight hint of envy. I emphasize the "slight" here.

As for EU'sceptism (the Better Off Out branch), I am still strongly in that camp. Because I believe that our general elections should be able to change our governments policy (parliament binds not), even when I disagree with what my fellow citizens vote for.
The more entwined in the EU we get, the less UK general elections will be able to effect real UK government policy change, as it will become more and more dependent on getting thirteen (for example) other EU member states to agree to that democratically mandated policy change. This was not what the people voted for in the 1974-75 referendum and nor does it comply with my definition of UK democracy.
So the more bellicose eu'philes may call me a 鈥渟wivel eyed head banger鈥� (funny), but at lest I can say my basic democratic principles are still very much intact.

This link may already be posted on here but if it ain't...

When it comes to Europe, the 大象传媒 is institutionally biased:

Read more:

35.
At 16:16 10th Dec 2011, barriesingleton wrote:
COMPLICITY BETWEEN POWER MONEY AND MEDIA IS NOW ABSOLUTE (#33)
++

Absolutely & 'one liners' are often the best.

A very good weblink that, I believe - I see parallels between Climate Lobby/UN & obsession of UK Civil ServantsEurocrats & 'PM & M' of pushing more & more EU on UK - with their twisted, hidden assumptions.

Again, they do this by not doing the basic reasoning/analysis - making clear assumptions & qualifications & identitying & testing assertions - just like the case for an EU country joining the EZ and Euro currency & giving up their sovereignty.

We have Russians coming out now & complaining about corruption in Russia - main problem area - not only the KGB and/or 'well connected business' - but some of the bureacrats are a big problem there also.

This is what I think we see with UK & EU membership discussion - very few stating their underlying assumptions as to what they believe & why - 大象传媒 included & as top of my list for concealment of critical underlying analysis.

For my part, I am pro EU membership that works for the average guy in the UK & not just the top 10% of population as actively participating in EU project - but I am not convinced that UK's current EU situation on UK trade/social & economic costs is satisfactory; as I think that all UK does in EU is really intended by UK political class/vested interests to mainly benefit the top 10% of UK earners & vested interests like the 大象传媒.

If resolution of current UK trade and economic & social costs & straightjacket from EU membership cannot be resolved quickly then I think UK position would be better if same as eg Norway or Switzerland because:-

NO CASE HAS BEEN MADE OR EVIDENCE PROVIDED BY ANYONE ANYWHERE, TO CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE

We are bombarded with 'must be at centre', 'must not be left out', 'must this' - 'so important ....the other'

Else what?

UK is marginalised in EU, to some extent, whatever we do - & has been since 1975 - and this is partly due to our island geography, a point repeatedly referred to by Sarkozy- same reason that Norway stayed out of EU - Norway also knew it would always be marginalised if it joined the EU.

UK has always expected & forecasted too much in benefit from the EU - & expectations & membership need continual review

OTHER SOURCES OF BIASED INFORMATION ARE AVAILABLE (#37)

1984 just gets more prescient, by the day. How many of us mavericks are finding solace, in our reactionary ways, all unknowing, with a friendly agent - double, treble or to the power of 'n'?

Those whom 'the gods' wish to destroy, they first make mad.

"He had come to love Big Brother".

Little mention from the beeb on this story. Why do you reckon that is?

FACILITATED INFLUX OF MUSLIMS INTO OUR ALCOHOLIC CULTURE - BRAVO (#40)

They didn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell. But then, Westminster (19 bars at the last count) is not well placed to make sound judgements about alcohol. Turning Muslims 'to the drink', is vital to the economy, and a few beaten indigenes is probably A PRICE WORTH PAYING, in the Westminster mind. And when their livers go - earlier than an English liver, probably, there will be work for the NHS (staffed with more exogenes) and more tax accrued to the exchequer.

It's a Westminster Win-Win! Makes you proud to be English . . .

'38. At 18:58 10th Dec 2011, nautonier -
NO CASE HAS BEEN MADE OR EVIDENCE PROVIDED BY ANYONE ANYWHERE, TO CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE'

Well, the airwaves certainly seem full of folk keen to try. Many of them 'experts'.

I am still trying to grasp how what I thought a veto meant has had as much effect on what's rolling across the continent as some commentators seem to be gleefully reporting, whilst very sad too.

'we ask if the deal that David Cameron vetoed will have the required impact' at least makes a bit more sense than 'Following David Cameron's veto we ask where does the UK and Europe go from here? as changed in the introduction.

One of those fluid 'story' changes? It can all be sorted in post.

Noting also the shift domestically by the ministries of fun is to look more internally, with 'splits' being the topic du jour as the public appears not to be co-operating.

Of course, these are the wrong kind of responses to polls, and hence need 'explaining'. Apparently the public hasn't 'understood' the issues 'properly'. This of course can happen even if referenda are granted, in which case they get held again and again until the correct result is obtained.

This blitzkrieg politics is interesting, but some of the columns in operation, especially as they take the 5th, are a concern.

Now, on Westminster shenanigans, we of course are being treated to Mr. Clegg's upset.

Oddly, the 'facts' so far seem based on 'sources who say'.

Less concern on how what is the stance now being a bit different to the stance that was so last week, accepting this is a long week in politics (and commentator memories, when it suits).

Also the opportunism of some, a bit on the sidelines, given airtime to say not what they would do, but what they wouldn't.



Maybe a MilliLoaf version of 'Bat out Hell' next'?

42. At 08:37 11th Dec 2011, You wrote:

Mods (or however it was). Referring a post because it points out what you wrote, and was replied to, originally, has been quietly changed, does not breach anything reasonable.

Being so sensitive to such an observation is unreasonable, and speaks volumes.

Meanwhile, elsewhere on the 大象传媒, questions are being asked...

/blogs/theeditors/2011/12/rss_feeds_for_bbc_news_corresp.html?postId=111144038

And elsewhere on the 大象传媒, people are commenting on the commenting..

/news/uk-16129004

The highest rated are interesting, no?

I'm sensing a bit too much haw-haw over jaw-jaw in how things are being handled in certain quarters. Report first, discuss next. And leave the opinion on speculation out, especially when the who and the what are so clearly open to 'selection' abuses.

GLOBOPOLY IS A STATE OF MIND - THE 'NICKMARR' SHOW (it's war)

Nick explained to Andrew Marr how tragic it would be if we were spurned by Europe and ignored by America; he said we would be A PIGMY IN THE WORLD.

With 'all' due respect to Nick, I would rather be a self-referenced Pigmy, with honour, scruples, integrity and decency, WINNING RESPECT IN THE WORLD, than a wannabe 1/27th of a transient pile of XXXX.

In passing: Marr gave him the opportunity to declare support (or otherwise) for Dave. . .

Nuff sed.

Can't testify to accuracy, but some others 'facts'...



'4. Cameron used his veto to protect a 鈥榯iny part of our economy鈥�. This claim slipped into the 大象传媒鈥檚 Stephanie Flanders鈥� reports on Friday and is incorrect.'

I'd be keen to know who was/is correct here.

GRAVITASIST (#47)

Would you have blog-posters 'reduced' to rational, erudite PIGMIES Junkk?

The only tribe of any account on here is DIATRIBE! Edgy and vacuous with it.

I'll get me Ken Dodd Joke Book.

Speaking of editorial desires vs. what folk are saying in the comments...





It seems that speaking for the people may be running up against a few glitches. Mainly, the people.

Normal service will be resumed... at... as soon as possible?

50. At 10:37 11th Dec 2011, barriesingleton

As one who I know frequents these pages, a question back on grave matters.

How do you feel about the practice of writing editorial, inviting comment based upon it, seeing that, and then altering what was commented upon, and when queried on the practice, hitting the pugatory-til-it passes norty step button?

Oh, missus, how 'tickled' would you be?

ARE YOU IN THE OBSERVER CORPS JUNKK? (#52)

Well spotted, even though "that way madness lies". I err on the side of misreading the original!

Not a lot of people know that I was one of four joint-winners in a 大象传媒 competition (joint TV and Radio2) "A Ballad for Your Town." The UNBELIEVABLE SHAMBLES AND INEPTITUDE on the part of the jokers 'running' (ruining) the competition, had to be encountered to be believed.

There seems to be a progressive atrophy at the Beeb; I guess you have encountered, and delineated, one (just one) aspect of it.

Along with the speed of light, the Gravitational Constant is now suspect; that might have some bearing on the problem. Call Susan!

53. At 11:12 11th Dec 2011, barriesingleton

Sanity is over-rated.

I simply hope, one day, to make enough money on behalf of the family to be considered eccentric rather than the alternative reserved for those the Dragon's Den edit suite doesn't like vs. those it adores (the ones who invest in ideas without due diligence IP, for example - the kind of 'business folk' the 大象传媒 can identify with).

Worth revisiting the links above. Most, amazingly, still open. And the people are speaking, bless 'em. Mind you, even >1k on a blog hardly equates to what 60M get fed via the idiot box over their deep-fried cornflakes for brunch.

49.
At 10:24 11th Dec 2011, JunkkMale wrote:

Can't testify to accuracy, but some others 'facts'...



++

DC was forced into position of saying 'yes' or 'no' to what Merkozy were promoting for EZ.

Although UK not a member of Euro - much of the next phase of EU red tape affecting all EU members would probably be restrictive on all UK trade as imposing more & more costs on ALL British business as EU/EZ will not make adjustments for non Euro countries & affects are unknown & so was a political & economic trap for the UK.

DC had to say no to what was on offer as the likely small print to unification of EZ is going to be horrendous and some EZ countries will back peddle & EU ?EZ set for some very fierce arguments from countries like

Denmark
Netherlands
Austria
Finland
Spain
Italy

All EU hell to be let loose yet? Some if not all of these will side with UK at some stage as EU likely to fragment now into those dictated to by France/Germany/ Eurocrats - and those who just want to get on with it and run their market stalls free of 'German Town Hall burger-meister bullies'

Another myth pushed at us by 大象传媒 economics editors all of the time - EU participation vital for UK, bootlicking, top table etc?

UK has trade deficit with EU/Europe - UK HAS 3 MILLION JOBS DEPENDENT ON EUROPE - NOT THE EU!

EU HAS MANY MORE THAN 3 MILLION JOBS DEPENDENT ON THEIR FAT TRADE SURPLUS TO THE UK

It is high time this is all put into place - EU cleverly pushes/has been pushing most EU assylum seekers onto UK - giving them food, tickets, transport, vouchers & police escort to Sangatte - which is against EU law as should be considered for assylum in first country of landing.

So 大象传媒 is telling lies to us all of the time - deliberate lies.

Only vital strategic trade coming to UK from EU is - gas - most UK oil is imported from outside EU from countries like Russia & Norway, Middle East.

Most vital UK import commodities come from outside EU.

Most UK imports are household, consumer & fuel including white goods and French. German auto.

UK exports to EU (including Irish Rep) are important but are not strategically vital.

UK most strategically vital trade is with USA/Canada on defence (Trident replacement), security, IT - all UK USA Canadian trade is strategically vital as our closest ally.

So position is that UK must re-evaluate what is gets from the EU in cost/benefit terms & strengthen ties with countries in EU when Euro breaks up - like e.g. Spain & Italy.

We have no proper analysis & debate from the 大象传媒 on this as following established & misleading rhetorical lines of discussion & political arguments.

France & Germany tried to scare UK into joining EU unification mess as they have a problem agreeing how to print & devalue the Euro & solve crisis with a much weaker Euro.

UK position will not be a problem for UK inside just a few months as Euro problems bite & this Euro mess was not dependent or affected by DC using UK veto - & DC did very well to stop UK getting entangled in it any further.

IMO - most countries in EZ will envy UK/Sweden/Czech Republic position within 6 months

THE CURSE OF THE COMPOSITE PHOTO (#51 link 1)

Not pho/ne hacking but pho/to crop-n-splicing. But then: news is now an art-form and the Turner Prize is serious art.

Nuff sed.

Interesting. We seem in the last few hours to have seen a headline downgrade from an 'attack' to a 'warning'.

Maybe next a 'bit of a snit', or maybe just a sulk?

/news/uk-16129004

These evolving editorial stances are hard to keep track of.

Some might say, to a rather excessive degree.

55. At 13:25 11th Dec 2011, nautonier

And if stretching accuracy or veracity beyond reasonable parameters, there should surely be consequences?

57.
At 15:22 11th Dec 2011, JunkkMale wrote:

55. At 13:25 11th Dec 2011, nautonier

And if stretching accuracy or veracity beyond reasonable parameters, there should surely be consequences?

++

Yes - There should be - but 'consequences' requires there to be 'accountability'.

Just like the institution called the EU - as being 'unaccountable'

48.
At 10:16 11th Dec 2011, barriesingleton wrote:


GLOBOPOLY IS A STATE OF MIND - THE 'NICKMARR' SHOW (it's war)

he said we would be A PIGMY IN THE WORLD.

++

'We are' - as saddled with highest overall debts in the world according to the 大象传媒's business editor!

I ASPIRE TO BEING A POMP-FREE PYGMY IN A PYGMY SIZED POOL (#59)

Juvenile 'leaders' are clinging on to outdated British status - much of it illusory - because that gives them a seat at the Globopoly Table. THEY are not broke - WE are. Yet the aid still flows and the (apparent) nuclear capability endures, and the GDP, bolstered by criminal bankery, is still flaunted.

Meanwhile, Dave (aided by IDS, the caring man who granted Tony his war) is on course to make us all happy. Yeah right.

DISMANTLE WESTMINSTER GLOBOPOLY - INSTALL SUSTAINABLE PYGMY

60.
At 17:29 11th Dec 2011, barriesingleton wrote:


I ASPIRE TO BEING A POMP-FREE PYGMY IN A PYGMY SIZED POOL (#59)

++

I aspire to being an active global pygmy as we keep hearing about all this globalism - but most of what we get is about the EU - perhaps the 大象传媒 could send David Attenboro on another jolly to find out what is happening with global pygmy-ing at the EU? (being as the hundreds of 大象传媒 reporters on permanent jollies in Brussels can't tell us anything other than what the Guardian allows them to write?)

HOW LONG BEFORE SOMEONE SPOTS THE FREE USE OF 'PYGMY' HERE? (#61)

I don't think even Mr Gervaise esq would stoop that low.

I think that Clegg is just being his usual 'pygmy brained' self as his comments are offensive to those who really care about pygmies and I've a good mind to report him to the EU pygmy monitoring team, for his pygmy related outburst.

AMERICA TODAY - UK TOMORROW

(scroll down)

Be afraid

I do find things are often served best by simply allowing folk to use their own words...

/news/uk-politics-16130255

'Europe - the coalition shakes'

Not, of course, Messrs Clegg or Robinson, whose reactions are as inevitable as they are predictable as this all unfolds, but those who are (in so many ways as these dominant titans of the Westminster estate seem to be concerned) 'below them'...

Mr Robinson seems to be a smidge out of sync if the highest rated is any guide. Asking a question that seems to have eluded many in journalistic circles in certain quarters, apparently more keen on analysing what they feel and spinning headlines to suit, than reporting what is.

This speaking for the nation stuff must be hard when folk figure out that who is being spoken for as claimed is a very, very small, circle.

#62 You're right Barrie, wonder how long before this quango cottons on! ; )

!!!Now who'd have thought that windmills would lead to power cuts!!!

"COMBAT LAWYERS" - COMBAT BRITAIN - PC IS BULLIES' CHARTER (#66 link)

Churchill is being quoted again: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." Our fool/knave politicians think this DEFENDS illusory democracy.

By the same token one might say: "COMBAT is the worst form of dispute resolution, except all the others that have been tried." It is only a small step from combative lawyers, to posturing Prime Ministers, urging volunteer mercenaries to go "killing abroad for their country". Civilisation eh?

The truth that DISTILS, is: We are a combative culture, fuelled by the demon drink (noted for the release of mindless violence) and almost devoid of the wisdom (or the will) TO MOVE TO A HIGHER CONDITION. (Churchill was never going to give up drink for democracy.)

There is ALWAYS a better way.

DISMANTLE WESTMINSTER - EXPOSE ILLUSIONS OF GRANDEUR - INSTALL INTEGRITY

WIND SET FAIR - TO FAIL BY DESIGN (#68 link)

Two things stand out from the article linked: 1) no mention of tidal stream energy: predictable, constant, and recoverable using technology not dissimilar to ship-building and oil rigs. 2) THAT THE ARTICLE APPEARS AT ALL.

Perhaps my small-business livelihood equipped me to see a bad move early? The fact that wind was a bum choice, and INTENDED to fail, was apparent to me long back. Recent history is riddled with GIANT GOVERNMENT FALSEHOODS ABETTED BY MEDIA, so 'they' have form.

As the old curse says: "May you live in interesting times." It is time to GET INTERESTED sheeples.

In passing: Would you buy a used wind turbine from Chris Huhne? Why then, 鈥榖uy鈥� his assurances?

at least Chamberlain got a piece of paper....

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

42. At 08:37 11th Dec 2011, You wrote:
Your comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain.

Any time you are ready, guys.