大象传媒

Oh is the prebyterian church actually admitting it knows those poor investors now? what ever happened to "they have nothing to do with us"?? The church lost members over the head of this malarky and showed that greed was more important to some of our ministers than their own congregations...

ChristianCalvinist- Is it your opinion that all savers are greedy?

Stafford tell the truth

They where NOT savers they where investors
I received no compensation for the drop in the value on my pension fund or shares

The FSA SAID THEPMS BROKE THE LAW

PMS only accepted cash from members of the PCI

Why should taxpayers bail out the PMS

Okay, this is an urgent appeal to Will (following conversations with other regulars) -

The blog is becoming surreal. We have been told that the IRA is the Catholic Church under arms. We have watched a long and intricate debate on the use of goats in the Orange Order. We have had a prophet --A PROPHET!!-- predicting apocalytic events through his PR department.
We desperately need threads that will open debate. Highbrow, elitist, call them what you will. Something on Plantinga, or Dennett, or Chomsky, or Evolutionary Epistemology.
Anything that Protestant Fundamentalists will find boring!

Save the Blog. For the love of sanity...

Did someone shoot the moderator?! Is he on his coffee break?

GV...the robinson thread has been stopped by the blogmaster....dont let them get me.........if they come for me then they will come for you too!!! RUN!!!!!

Well actually wait a second, this blog has had more posts over the last couple of days since some Protestants came on it, now we are being tld that we are not wanted. Is this not discrimination on fundamentalist protestants? Why is it that some people are tying to get rid of us? and what regulars? there is four of you...

Truth be told if it wasnt for us with our different views there would be no debate what so ever and who made GV the boss of the blog? This is meant to be a place where we can talk and debate religious issues that affect us...we have done that and nothing more. GV has no problem with a Roman Catholic telling me to get out of the country and forget my religion, nor is there any problem with people calling calvinism and the reformed churches stupid but yet when someone does it to them, they call for the blogs to close and freedom of speech to be cancelled because it is not elitest enough in this blog. What have we saw over the last couple of days??? New people coming in to give their opinions...old posters coming back to get arguing with my good self...new threads and even old threads regulary contributed to and why?? Because we got to say what we wanted and we got to have a debate, we got to show what we thought and we tested our views not up against lovey dovery "oh thats great types" but people who were prepared to challenge us... GV might want a blog where no one can speak and everyone must tow the line but if that is the way this blog goes...it will surely be the death of it.

Don't these Presbyterian folk not know their Bible:
'Lay not up treasures upon earth', 'take therefore no thought for the morrow' etc., etc., and did not Christ drive the usurers from the temple?

Investing can get messy when people don't do their own due diligence.

"Due Diligence is a term used for a number of concepts involving either the performance of an investigation of a business or person prior to signing of a contract, or the performance of an act with a certain standard of care."



Those who expect a financial return must look after their own interests. Are the investment products guaranteed? That is a requirement with the chartered banks.

Private funds and their managers are a different ball game. The church at the head of this fund surely has the cash to make its investors whole.

". . . investments can go up as well as down"

The cover on the brochure PMS mentions 鈥�. . . investments and loans鈥�.
Watch the language carefully 鈥� the Politians and the Moderator call the people who put money in the PMS as savers and yes the UK Government did protect savers. Not one lost a penny.

Those that identify them as investors are more pragmatic and realize the administration of the PMS will have to run its course.

Millions of investors have lost out 鈥� I have lost out 鈥� I have a pension which is now worth approx 70% of what it was 2 years ago. How is guaranteeing my pension?

If the Government guarantee the PMS investors watch out for the legal challenges !

We are told the Moderator鈥檚 Church has 拢1m in, and he knows, as a creditor, he will get pretty much of it all back.

Graham - # 5 and # 171 on another thread.

I am not sure why but I really have something of a soft-spot for religious fundamentalists - perhaps I like their emotional commitment, an engagement that transcends the merely rational part of the mind.

I really hope CC keeps posting - if he does it will be good for him and good for all of us. CC's voice is very much one of the authentic voices of Northern Ireland, he speaks for a sizeable chunk of the Protestant population, it is good that that voice is heard and it is especially good that it has embarked in dialogue (however strident) with other voices. Surely the mere fact of that dialogue is a very good thing both for W&T and for wider NI society.

CC may just want to be heard, he may wish to persuade. I certainly wish to persuade him of the error of his Calvinist ways. I really want him to continue the encounter.

Now you suggested Jesus would not offer the advice that RJB proposed. Would you agree then that the Biblical perspective is that he should prepare for ministry by embarking on a mind-altering experience? What would you think of the suggestion that he withdraw from the hubbub of his daily life, retreat from the influence and reactions of friends, family and neighbours, and judiciously alter his brain chemistry so as to facilitate a more vivid, more real experience of the spiritual dimensions of the world we inhabit? Is that what Jesus did?

What do you think CC?

Excellent point, Parhassios.

But the parent in me, possibly selfishly, is also saying, "Phew! I'm glad its past his bed time."

Quite understandable RJB!

I'd like to add a clarification to my earlier post: my soft-spot is only for genuine fundamentalists - not the ones who are only in it for the money - or the votes.

CC - I am interested in whether you want to be heard or whether you want to persuade? Do you want to hector or do you want to engage? I suspect it may have been the first time a Catholic priest has suggested you 'Wise up' to your virtual face; I'll warrant it is not the first time RJB has heard the points you made in your response.

I don't know how long you have been following the blog before you began to post but, if you have been here for any length of time, you will know that, whatever else he might be, RJB is not a Papal Anti-Christ. I actually thought the description you cited of the mass as a blasphemous fable and dangerous deceit came from the 39 Articles of Religion of the Anglican Church (Knox of-course was very involved in their formulation). The contemporary litanies of Anglicanism also contained the wonderfully graphic petition (now moderated) "From the Bishop of Rome and all his detestable enormities - Good Lord deliver us". You know CC - I think both you and RJB could still say that prayer with just about equal fervour. (I'd be happy to join-in).

What engagement with your fellow contributors tends to do is to round caricatures out of two dimensions into three; it puts a human face on those we knew previously only as types. If we go about it diligently it develops our empathy and there is nothing more necessary for a well-balanced human than that. I have even managed over the course of my contributions here to feel a little less hostile to evangelicals!

Just curiosity - which regulars do you identify as being in the gang of four?

Point 5 of the Memorandum raises a very interesting question.

Creditors' right of preference over shareholders (Members) in the distribution of assets under insolvency law is raised as an issue. That prompted me to take a closer look this morning at what progress there has been with the administration of the PMS over the last year - an issue I'd nearly forgotten.

I understand that shareholding in the PMS was capped at 拢 20,000 and anyone wishing to invest more than that sum did so by way of making a loan to the Society. What this means, spelled out clearly, is that the creditors (those who made loans) are the big investors and those who hold only shares are the small investors.

The Administrator initially proposed treating big and small investors equally when it came to returning people's money to them. It appears, however, that such a Christian attitude did not sit well with some of the larger loan capital holders. The administrator has had to seek guidance from the courts as to whether, in the light of the objections raised by the big investors, he can do as he originally intended.

I did a very quick calculation based on the anticipated recoveries noted in the administrator's December 2009 progress report comparing it to the statement of affairs in his proposals of January 2009. What that told me is that, if the big investors get their way, they will do very nicely indeed and should recoup by far the greater part of their investments while the small investors will get precisely zilch, nada, nothing or, at most, very, very little.

Now I hope someone will tell me 'Parrhasios, you know nothing about finance, you can't read a balance sheet for toffee, do you even know what a sum is?' I hope that, because if I am not wrong, would it not be just about the biggest imaginable indictment of the mal-practice of Christianity among members of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland.

Away at the start of this fiasco I was told by a person high up in banking that those that 鈥渓oaned鈥� the PMS money (i.e. big money) would get about 95% back those that bought shares may get 20% back.

I think it is about how the PMS got hold of the money; either through a load to them or a deposit with them. This is where insolvency law kicks in, the Taxman first, then Creditors and then the depositors.

It鈥檚 not so much to do with mal-practice of Christianity but the laws of the land.

It鈥檚 a real pity that the Presbyterian whingers, who went to Stormont on Monday to cry about the gambling investors of the Presbyterian Mutual Society being losers in the ivestment game, didn鈥檛 preach the Gospel with the same energy and enthusiasm that they have applied in trying to get their stakes back. We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. Proverbs 16:33

The "PMS" should NOT be given any special treatment as many people have lost mega money in this financial cash.

But, I really feel sorry for the people.

Wolfenstein - I beg to differ.

The administrator initially proposed that the rules of the society be taken into consideration in any liquidation and obtained the consent of the membership for that concession. That would have permitted an equal distribution of assets. The interim December 2009 report, however, notes that this plan was brought into question by the actions of a number of large investors invoking the letter of the law and thereby giving rise to what is unquestionably the biggest religio-ethical issue facing any Protestant denomination in Ireland today.

What it means to be part of a church community, what it means to be obedient to the commandment to love one another, indeed what it means to witness to the gospel of Christ in society have all been brought into sharp focus by the action of these large investors.

It really does not matter now whether the government bails out the society or facilitates a buy-out - the damage has been done. We have been shown that, in an institution designed for the mutual benefit of a discrete Christian community, a number of the members of that community have sought to exploit the law for their own personal or corporate benefit at the expense of their less well-off fellows.

There was little more likely to incur the ire of the prophets than that the strong oppressed the weak and the rich took from the poor. Jesus concurred.

The response of the leaders of the church has been to express concern that the results of a liquidation under general insolvency rules might be divisive within congregations. Does concern for institutional consequences rather than concern for suffering individuals ring any bells? What an indictment!

The leadership of the PCI throughout could be characterised as corporate rather than pastoral, levitical rather than prophetic. If the PCI cared for the gospel press and pulpits would have been ringing since December with the condemnation of what is not just Un-Christian but Anti-Christian behaviour.

If I were a Presbyterian I would be asking who the large investors who pressured the Administrator were - did they include any congregations, any ministers, any directors? I would want to know...

Parrhasios

The administrator may have sought the thoughts of the members on the equal distribution of assets but statute and legal precedence takes a higher president. Even if one investor disagreed with equal distribution there may have been grounds for a legal challenge.

I agree that the leadership of the PCI has been distant. The washing of hands at the collapse was shameful and the current motto of the Moderator, 鈥淧assion for Christ, Compassion for People鈥� rings hollow.

I am uncomfortable with Church establishing a financial institution 鈥� no matter how honourable and selectively beneficial. It is a sort of reminiscent of the money lenders/traders in the Temple Courts. And we know how that ended.

When a Church starts to dabble in 鈥渢hings of the world鈥� they must be prepared to bide by the rules of the world and accept the consequents, especially when solids hit the ventilator.

Take a look at the Code of the PCI.



Papa 47. Are they taking care of the poor ?

Also, it is interesting to read that an Agent from Presbyterian Mutual Society sits on the Board of Mission in Ireland of PCI. Para 280. And I thought there were no links with the PMS & PCI.

I sympathise with the individuals that have lost in this venture and am disappointed with the muted support from the church that those individuals have help maintain over generations.

If the Presbyterian Mutual Society was in the heart of London and was for MP'S or the General Public of London the problem would have been sorted long ago.It is a disgrace that it is taking so long to sort out and I feel sorry for anyone who is waiting for their money.

"Who made GV the boss"???!!!!
Oh for pities sake.

If I'm going to have to endure witty retorts and satirical wit like that, I'm not going to play anymore. So, nyah!

On the bright side BLOGMODERATOR is shutting down some threads. Which may or may not stop us from becoming the Nolan Show...

Graham - really - have you no aspirations for William?

Does the ethics of stifling debate not concern you? Why should argument be confined to some kind of self-regarding elite? What is the effect of insulating the discussions of a small cadre of educated professionals from the expression of the viewpoints of wider society? What is the use of a highly theoretical ethics if, on a thread dealing with an egregiously blatant inversion of Christian morality, it has nothing whatsoever to say?

You may think that I, an outsider, should refrain from voicing my concerns about a church not my own but, let me tell you, if it were the Anglican church in this situation I would be spitting blood.

I notice that the fuhrer himself Mr.GV has decided to enlighten us with his company, you would think killing off two of the largest threads to be found on any blog on the internet and causing the number of posts to drop by half he would at least acknowledge that his attempt to drive reformed protestants off the blog has had far larger consequences than just getting rid of myself... but no we get a side stepping of the issue at hand, GV maybe you could explain to us why you complained about people speaking off topic on threads when the last post on the robinson thread from yourself was asking me what book i am currently reading? is that not hypocrisy?


Are we still allowed to discuss ethical and religious and political issues or are we only allowed to discuss the ones GV wants to? Can we have our own thoughts and opinions or only those deemed appropriate by the fuhrer?

I cam eon here to speak from a reformed viewpoint and to speak for myself because i felt it was a view that in my day to day life i find common but yet on here it is ignored... i didnt come on here to speak about calvinism but i was asked and so i responded.

"I'll warrant it is not the first time RJB has heard the points you made in your response." ---I wonder why.

RJB is a priest...how can he not follow the papal antichrist? I quoted Knox in "The Idolatry of the Mass" rather than the articles of faith though either would suffice.

"Just curiosity - which regulars do you identify as being in the gang of four?"
--- I'm starting to realise I have more to worry about from the "Fuhrer" Herr Veale and the blog SS rather than the gang of four
...

Let me state here that while I find Grahams religious philosophy a textbook example of what the world badly needs to be rid of (this place would be so overwhelmingly the better for it), I find the comments by ChristianCalvinist in posts 24 and 25 to Graham to be so far off that it actually makes me feel a bit of sympathy for him.

CC, during your tenure on this blog you've made just about all non-believers think of yourself as a waste of human brain tissue, but it wouldn't surprise me if your nazi analogies in posts 24 and 25 have alienated even those who up now appreciated your comments.

CC - you say "RJB is a priest...how can he not follow the papal antichrist?"

I assume you are aware that if you click a commentator's name you can read a history of their posts. If you ever had time you might find it interesting to look at RJB's past contributions: he is probably just about the only person on this blog (myself possibly excepted) who has a lower opinion of Joseph Ratzinger than you. I am fairly certain you will still not like most of what he has to say but you might see that he is a certainly not a follower of the Pope.

Parrhasios

Is post 23 satirical? I can't tell anymore (-; I teach in a High School Par, so you know I don't want to insulate discussion. (As a matter of fact I think there's a kind of stupidity that requires a high degree of formal education).

Not a lot of high-theoretical thingummies around here. And you know I like Pastor Philip's and John Dyne's comments. And OTs (before he went OTT about W&T and the 大象传媒). As long as folk are discussing and not ranting I'm with you.

And the PMS crisis needs discussion - I'm not disputing that *at all*.
I'm pretty sure that goats in the Orange Lodge's aren't worth discussing. And that we don't need to examine Pope Benedict to see if he's the mark of the beast tatooed behind his fringe. And that there's no need to see if the IRA were Jesuit stormtroopers.

If your concern is the "Nolan Show" - I like the sort of Pantomime "boo, hiss" debates that Nolan can get going. They're great fun. (And he's excellent on consumer issues - Radio 5 don't seem to have picked up on that). No probs with the Nolan Show at all. I just don't think the W&T blog needs to go that way.

GV

After reading PK's kind words (honestly I wept, very moving) I read CCs posts. Did anyone notice that I was a Reformed Protestant?

Achtung, baby!

CC

I just want you to moderate your language. I don't want you to change your ideas or to go anywhere.

GV

Also, once a Priest, always a Priest. It's a 'status', not a job. You can resign your duties, be 'fired' etc. But you can still take confession. That's just the way RC's view the Church and the Sacraments. I disagree strongly. Sacerdotalism is my biggest objection to RC theology.
But there it is. RJB can deny the infallibilty of the Pope, the Councils etc. He'd remain a Priest in the eyes of the RC communion.

GV

CC is very young, by the sounds of things, full of fight, and a lot SMARTER than I will ever be "BUT" he needs to be careful NOT to put people off.

Understanding of other's, comes through experiences of life and time, when I think back on my own life, I always had a suspicious mind towards Roman Catholics until the Father brought me to his SON by his Irresistible GRACE, which in turn, gave me grace for others.

PS, I would gladly have CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP with GV and others on this blog.

It would seem that im not welcome on this blog... and so i wont bother you any more, if you want a blog where no one is allowed to speak...and where the only contributors are the self porclaimed intellectuals then continue down the broad way that you are going but dont be surprized when it leads to the destruction of this blog...

It's all right for a school teacher to sit and complain that a 19 year old isnt as smart as him, he may not want to moderate my language...but he certainly wants me blocked alltogether or left in the position where i cannot speak at all.


"CC, during your tenure on this blog you've made just about all non-believers think of yourself as a waste of human brain tissue, but it wouldn't surprise me if your nazi analogies in posts 24 and 25 have alienated even those who up now appreciated your comments."

---- I'll level with you, I'm 19, went to a protestant primary school and a mixed grammar school where it was apparently fun to bully the prods, we had our school bus window put through when we drove past a local RC school...we did nothing, I went to scripture union after school and when me and my friends came out we were called everything and my mother's car was vandalised and i wasnt the only one whom this happened to, in my local area the RC community felt it neccessary to block a road and ban orangemen from walking down "their" road, they attacked 7 orange halls in the last year in this area and what did the churhes do??? they pretended they didnt know us... they didnt want to offend their Roman Catholic brethren...they threw us to the wolves! I listened to their nonsense crying peace peace when there was no peace until one day i got sick of all the lying, i listened to a sermon by Rev.Foster about unrepentant murders in our own government and i realised that he was right, the Bible says we are to kill the murderer not place them in government! Now i went down the scriptural route and pray aginst that church and it's evil influence in this land...others i know took a different course from I and fought it in other ways. I read Dr. Paisleys works and it got me interested in reformed theology... contrary to what some of you may believe i have indeed got a life, i have a girlfriend and a job and have goals in my life....i'm not some animal for you to look down on as being outdated, in fact almost all of my friends are reformed protestants and some more so than even I... I am a popular orangeman and Black preceptory member, i play church bowls, i help organise and run missions in my local area, at the weekends i go to coleraine matches with my friends and i am an officer in a rangers supporters clubs and a former member of a fluteband, I will not say what positions i hold in the orange because it may leave it reasonably easy to identify me but i am a officer in private lodge and member of district and attend County and Grand Lodge meetings though i am not a member of the Grand Lodge yet... but i have found that a sizeable majority of members hold to the same values and views as myself, the youth in my area are sick and tired of sitting back and watching as republicans tear down our flags and attack our halls and stop us from parading and if this blog is anything to go by it would seem even our fellow protestants are turning their face from us... we have been marginalised long enough and if trying to talk to people and explain how I and other young people like me feel is to be shunned and blocked and derided by the old men then what is the point in even trying to talk? It is patently obvious that none of the old timers will listen to us the "stupid young people" of this country...

Good bye... because here is one poster who won't bow to the jackboot of GV!

I really don't think you can blame GV because you leaving the blog, as I know that he would be the first person to tell you not to go anywhere, also, I think it was a wee bit wrong to try and put a guilt trip on him and other Protestants, who you say were turning their faces from what your concerns are, just remember ! people have gone to jail for life over the same things many years ago for the so-called cause and they have lost out on family, friends, employment, education and of course time which you have NOW.

It's now well over 25 years since I walked on the Whiterock parade and little did I know then, that sinn fein would use these very marches as a platform within the local communities to gain support by telling the ordinary catholic people, the prods can do anything they want by marching down our roads, which of course was a lie, as it was their fault, through ethic cleansing of Protestant areas and by using the demographic changes they made, look now, whats happen, sinn fein are the largest nationalist party in N.Ireland, why? because they took advantage of the situation by using fear and confrotationist tactics, which are still used today, to try and split Protestant communities down the middle, either to violence or non-violence which Is the Christian way.

I really hope you reconsider, as these blogs are, a very good place to learn and strengthen your views for the future.

What did I say??!! Anyone! I asked him to hang around!

CC - I honestly do not think anyone has grounds to look down on anyone else and certainly, reading your post # 33 above, no one has any grounds to look down on you. I do not think I have ever read a more eloquent or heart-felt statement of what I fully understand is not just your personal position but the position of a great number of young predominantly rural Protestants in Northern Ireland today. It is the voice of a population which is seldom heard outside its own constituency and consequently the emotional load of that voice is frequently misunderstood by the inattentive outsider. Pain is read as aggression, hurt as arrogance, grievance as insularity. That your points have not always been well understood or received here does not mean there was any deficiency in your making of them rather it means your audience did not know how properly to read them.

The first duty of any caring community is to welcome the stranger and it is the community's responsibility to attempt to understand the new-comer. If the new-comer decides to stay, however, then he acquires a responsibility, over time, to communicate in the most commonly accessible way with his fellows. This is the point, I think, that people like Graham were, perhaps prematurely, trying to make and perhaps, too, without having ensured first that you were aware of their understanding and respect.

I hope you will forgive us all our ineptitude and continue to contribute. I for one want to hear what you have to say and want to be able to argue with you, disagree vehemently with you, and eventually persuade you to be the second or third biggest liberal Christian in Ulster. I assure you that, from the beginning, I have read all your posts very carefully indeed and, should you continue among us, I will certainly continue to do so.

Graham - # 28. I was just suggesting that William would probably love to host the biggest show in the country. He does that common touch thing 'awfully well' when he stands in for Wendy.

You raise the question of what we should and should not discuss. Let's leave aside the fact that I would cheerily label Benedict Anti-Christ - not, of-course, the Anti-Christ - I have no time for second century eschatological nonsense. You will know that I do not subscribe to any theories of objective value. A Bach cantata is not better than say Conal Gallen's 'Horse it into you Cynthia': it is merely different. I am every bit as much interested in John Dynes and CC's discussing the role of the goat in Orangeism as I am in your discussions with Helio on Plantinga. (Possibly more so). Your concerns are not better or more worthy than theirs, again merely different.

# 31 - I did not suggest in any way shape or form that RJB does not continue to be a priest - he is in every sense a priest forever, as are you and as am I. RJB is moreover a true catholic priest - the grace of ministry is abundant in his postings - I would be proud to consider him a brother in Christ and a spiritual father.

"A Bach cantata is not better than say Conal Gallen's 'Horse it into you Cynthia': it is merely different."

OK, I'll bite. I agree about different. Different songs and musical pieces serve different purposes and meet different needs. Now if someone wants beauty, they would be wrong to think "Horse it into ya" is the place to find it. If they want a good song, they'd be wrong to think that the Dubliner's singing "The Irish Rover" or the Pogues singing "A Pair of Brown Eyes" are not as good as Conal Gallen.

If they just want fun, then it's completely subjective.

GV

As for worthiness, can't claim, and never have claimed, to have achieved it. Don't think I deserved that kick in the shin(-;

Pointlessness, silliness- no probs, but not when people are getting hot under the collar about it. Not when it impedes other discussions. People need to recognise a bit of fun when they see it.

I've no difficulty with Fundamentalists. I was raised Fundy, my family is fundy, and most of my friends are fundy. And, often, I envy their character. (There's more to life than theorising, like you say.)If you wanted to put me on the spectrum I'd be "neo-fundamentalist".
So I don't like it when people take the "fun" out of fundamenatlism. The goodun's all have a good sense of humor, and don't take themselves seriously. Just their Lord.

RJBs priesthood - the comments were for CC. Just being an RE teacher.

Hope that clears everything up.

GV

And John Dyne's and Pastor Philip's character shine through on the blog IMHO. I wish people would pay attention to that, instead of creo-bashing.

Can't reply at greater length now but, re the 'kick in the shins', my use of 'worthy' was not with reference to you as a person but to the subjects of discussion you value ("your concerns"); it directly referenced your usage in post # 28 "I'm pretty sure that goats in the Orange Lodge's (sic) aren't worth discussing".

Sorry about the '(sic)' but after the stick CC took (and I don't think you are to blame - he just doesn't know you) I couldn't resist it. ;-)

I checked my comments. Look through them. I didn't give him any stick. I just asked him to calm down. I actually told others to calm down as he was only 19. That's it. He got lot's of insults from everyone else - and that made *me* Hitler.
I dunno...I really don't.

The big Question ... what is a Fundamentalist! as even this word and its description can be full of ambiguity, maybe, for a new blog or even a public debate organised by Brother William Crawley.

CC, could have gave his definition?.

In the summer of 1990 I was to be ordained. Only trouble was, my ordination date was bang in the middle of the Italian World Cup, for which I had tickets. A suitable amount of grovelling to the Bish was done and he eventually agreed to bring it forward, (the ordination, not the World Cup.)

On the 3rd of June, myself - a newly ordained RC priest - one other Catholic and sixteen Protestants headed of for another Scottish disaster in Italy.

We were staying at appartments in the South of France then travelling up to Genoa and Turin for each of the matches. As we approached our appartments my heart sank as I saw Union Jacks and red hand of Ulster flags decorating the outside of the appartments next to ours. (12 guys from Belfast had bought tickets to watch Northern Ireland at the World Cup but unfortunately, they didnt qualify so, they decided to come anyway and support Scotland.) I was decidedly nervous.

As our lot showered and shaved in the digs, I warned them not to tell the NI guys who I was as it might cause problems. They all headed up the beach to the pub, I stayed behind to wait on a guy who had lost his bag at the airport.

Two hours later, I arrived at the pub. As soon as I opened the door I was greeted with my mates and the Belfast guys singing at the top of their voices, "Oh no Pope of Rome, no chapels to sadden my eyes, no nuns and no priests and no rosary beads, every day is the 12th of July." My 'mates' had grassed me up. I, how shall I put it, did a mistake in my pants.

A few days later, all of us were on the beach partaking in a few libations. The Belfast guys had heard me entertaining the 'troops' with a guitar in Turin train station the night before. One of them approached me with a broom handle and asked me to sing American Pie again. (The broom stick was supposed to be my guitar or a microphone, which ever I wanted.)

I stood on the bench on the beach and asked if there were any Protestants on the beach today. The place errupted. I said, "This one's for you, its called the Banana Song." I then started The Sash, Ba na na na na na na na na etc... The wee guy who had handed me the broom took it back, started birling it around his neck and throwing it in the air. There then followed a mini Orange walk along the beach where everyone joined in, much to the laughter of the gathering crowds on the promenade.

When we finished, I then asked if there were any Catholics on the beach today. One guy, Alex, put his hand up and promptly pulled it down again as everyone playfully chucked empty beer cans at him. I continued, "This is for you, Alex, its called The Ferrit Song." I then started the Celtic Song, Ferrit's a grand old team to play for....." The same wee guy from Belfast grabbed my broom off me again and started another Orange Walk, this time to the tune of the Celtic Song. Everyone joined in again. The onlookers were in stitches. To my knowledge, its the first time ever that an Orange Walk took place to that song.

Over the course of the next fortnight, every single one of those guys from Belfast quietly sought me out - knowing full well who I was - bought me a pint and chatted to me about a variety of things. One of them had a disfigured shoulder, the result of an IRA bomb. He was a brilliant guy. I gave him the gold chain and cross someone had given me for my ordination.

They loved Rugby and I invited them to my place for the Scotland match the following February. They accepted. I added, "Then I can come over and stay with you in Belfast for a week." They all looked at each other and with genuine sadness said, "That can never happen."

Those guys were some of the finest men I ever met. They should have been my life long friends. I often think of them with great fondness and hope for the day that I'll meet them again and share a pint with them - in their pub. For this reason, I can never surrender to the bigots and the bleak future they continue to subject the good people of Northern Ireland to. There IS another way.

Graham,

"And John Dyne's and Pastor Philip's character shine through on the blog IMHO. I wish people would pay attention to that, instead of creo-bashing."

Pastorphilips creationist dishonesties are a big part of it, but are by no means all that people hold against him. He regularly posts things in support of his christian world view (or in criticism of those who speak out against it) that are just not true. It's not just atheists who see that. See John Wrights post on the 'creationsts defend film' thread. Or see your own comment on the thread where pastorphilip had made another nonsense post, I had called him out over it (I've done that many times, he usually just runs away, sometimes repeating the same nonsense a bit later), and your post shows you know that what he was stating wasn't true:

/blogs/ni/2009/05/horus_and_jesus_mythological_p.html

There's plenty of room for criticism of pastorphilip. Yet despite his various posting of things that simply aren't true, you have high praise for him. Is it ok in your view for people to state things that aren't true as long as they do it to advance the cause of christianity?

Graham # 42. I did not mean to imply that you in particular had given CC stick - sincere apologies. I simply saw a golden opportunity in quoting a remark (which I wished in any case to reference) to illustrate that we are all liable to the odd grammatical idiosyncrisy. You would undoubtedly surmise, of-course, that I would believe grammar has only a descriptive function and spelling is merely a convention: a person speaking or writing his or her native language cannot make a mistake.

RJB - again a telling story. One of the truly sad things about NI, and I am sure you are well aware of it, is that at least some of those wonderful guys, back at home in their own communities, facing the expectations of their wider peer group could well be themselves the blackest of bigots threatening the future of the province.

We can look at it positively nonetheless. Your story speaks of the common humanity we all share and is an encouragement to endeavour always to fan the spark of goodness that exists in everyone we meet.

Par

Not the most profound of stories, I know, just getting tired of getting scripture quotes fired around as per usual. I said very early on, on this site that I did not consider the Bible to be the apex of God's revelation to humankind. That the apex was historical praxis.

Some persist in reading every huge, catastrophic disaster as God's speaking to mankind. They then utterly corruptly come up with the relevant scriture texts to prove their point (and normaly accompany it with an "And unless you....")


None of them... none of them ever come on here and say, "I saw God today. God spoke to me today. I saw a shopkeeper come out of the shop and hand a Big Issue seller a hot cup of tea today." They totally miss it. Think of all the texts we could quote to justify that particular scenario. But they are blind to it, searching for the latest catastrophe or scandal to warp God around.

Most people whisper far many more times in their lives than they shout. I see no reason why God would be any different.

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