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Mark Orlovac

What now for the minnows? (44)

London - It鈥檚 all about the timing isn鈥檛 it?

Just as the World Cup starts to boil up nicely, we hear that the is apparently considering 鈥 leaving the 鈥渕innows鈥 to compete in a second-tier tournament.

IRB head of communications Greg Thomas says that a new slimmed-down format could increase revenue 鈥 which would then be spread around the developing nations.

It sounds like a reasonable argument. And I have to be honest here - if this idea had been mooted, let鈥檚 say around three weeks ago, I for one would have probably gone with it.

No-one wants to see games where the result is a foregone conclusion and scorelines of , like we saw between New Zealand and Japan in 1995, are no fun at all.

But the pool stages of this year鈥檚 event have completely changed my mind.

The minnows, some assisted by extra IRB funding before the tournament to help with things like defence coaching and conditioning, have defied all the odds to give the established countries something to think about.

They have been fitter and more organised than in previous years and I defy anyone to suggest that they have not brought anything to the party.

Georgia, that鈥檚 right Georgia, came oh so very close to , Italy were - and I could mention plenty of other impressive performances.

portugal_anthem.jpg

And it would be a brave man to tell the immensely proud , who have graced this World Cup with their passion and enthusiasm, that they do not deserve their chance to shine in the sun.

Surely the whole point of the World Cup is to provide a showcase for the world game and any tournament that appears to be a cosy ring-fenced event for the top nations is not worthy of the name.

In any sport, teams and individuals only get better by playing others better than themselves and if we really want to spread the gospel, we have to give the smaller nations the chance to mix it with the big boys.

The IRB has yet to decide on any reduction and will discuss the matter in November, but let鈥檚 hope the displays of the lesser teams in France will give them food for thought.

Mark Orlovac is a 大象传媒 Sport journalist based in London. He will be based in Paris for the knockout stages of the Rugby World Cup.


Comments  Post your comment

  • 1.
  • At 03:09 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Time3200 wrote:

The difficulty in this type of decision will be defining "minnow".

Based on the quality of rugby - will Ireland be invited? What about England?

I agree with the sentiment - huge scorelines do no good, but surely this type of decision needs to be part of an overall strategy - a 2nd division of 5/6 nations - promotion and relegation. Expansion of the tri-nations to include the Pacific Islands and Argentina? Perhaps this would encourage an overall raising of standards.
A strong Pacific Island team or teams may also prevent so many of their best players joining the All Blacks!

By the way - on the same note - are the tri-nations teams scared of Argentina?

  • 2.
  • At 03:11 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • brian wrote:

I find my views have changed on this issue during this WC. My view before kick off was that a 20 team cup was at least four teams too big and that the group stages were an inordinately lengthy way of getting rid of two sides, involving a lot of either tediously lopsided or hard fought but basically meaningless matches before getting to the business end of proceedings.

As things have worked out, all four groups are actually competitive going into the final round of matches and the number of cricket scores has been small. Some of this no doubt is due to factors like the weaknesses of the 鈥渂ig鈥 NH sides, the relative decline of middle ranking sides like Samoa and sides like SA getting squad rotations a bit wrong but there鈥檚 no doubt that teams like Georgia and Tonga and (at a rather lower level) Romania and the USA are no longer easy meat and are capable on their day of giving anybody a decent game. Even the obvious minnows like Namibia and Portugal have had their moments and I鈥檓 now less of the view that the WC could actually be damaging to rugby in countries where it鈥檚 very much a minority sport struggling for visibility than I was a month ago.

There is however no doubt that having an odd number of sides in the groups is causing serious scheduling problems (as indeed it did last time round), with follow-on issues for coaches (as a Scot, I was thoroughly annoyed by what Frank Hadden did on Sunday but I can also accept that he had an arguable case given the ways the games fall). It鈥檚 all very well saying that the 6N can see sides playing games six days apart but nobody plays three games in eleven days- and the improved quality of the 鈥渓esser鈥 sides makes it harder to risk putting out teams based on squad players against them. The option used eight years ago (five pools of four with play-offs to get into the quarter finals for pool runners up and one third placed side) didn鈥檛 work either. Going up to 24 teams with four groups of six would be an option but could lengthen the tournament, reopen the risk of lots of uncompetitive/irrelevant matches (especially if this WC turns out to be a blip with the 鈥渘ormal鈥 order of things reasserted four years hence), seriously limit the number of potential hosts and possibly put additional strains on the finances of the smaller Unions.

Perhaps the real issue is what happens between WCs. Sides like Georgia really need regular games against the 鈥渂ig鈥 sides (and not just at Twickenham or the Millennium Stadium- or indeed at Eden Gardens; it鈥檚 about time we saw, say, England or the All Blacks playing in Tblisi) if they鈥檙e to develop. I appreciate this is going to cost money but if the IRB are serious about growing the game then funding needs to be put in place to enable it.

  • 3.
  • At 03:17 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • ash wrote:

I totall agree. Being a Welshman i am naturally feeling prety worried about this weekend and so should England. Firstly where do you draw the line? Canada gave us a scare and the pacific islands look as threatening as ever. The USA and Canada are so improved that next time around who knows! Portugal deserve to be in France and I bet I know the answer if you asked any one of their squad if they would prefer to be in a second tier competition. The game needs to expand and the world cup is the perfect stage. There is far too much snobbery in Europe and the tri-nations. The rebuff of Argentina to play in a major yearly event is rediculous but that i suppose is a different story.

  • 4.
  • At 03:21 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Time3200 wrote:

The difficulty in this type of decision will be defining "minnow".

Based on the quality of rugby - will Ireland be invited? What about England?

I agree with the sentiment - huge scorelines do no good, but surely this type of decision needs to be part of an overall strategy - a 2nd division of 5/6 nations - promotion and relegation. Expansion of the tri-nations to include the Pacific Islands and Argentina? Perhaps this would encourage an overall raising of standards.
A strong Pacific Island team or teams may also prevent so many of their best players joining the All Blacks!

By the way - on the same note - are the tri-nations teams scared of Argentina?

  • 5.
  • At 03:21 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Dave Jackson wrote:

Looking through the results of the minnows, I too think that there has been good competitive Rugby at this World Cup.

Perhaps it is time that the 6 nations tournament was expanded again to include one or all of Romania, Georgia or Portugal. Could the Tri-nations be expanded to include Argentina or Fiji. Competing year in and year out against the best will obviously provide more of an edge.

I say this of course with the distinct possibility that Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England could be on a Ferry home after the weekend and 4 "minnow" sides would be competing in the QFs.

  • 6.
  • At 03:23 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • brian wrote:

I find my views have changed on this issue during this WC. My view before kick off was that a 20 team cup was at least four teams too big and that the group stages were an inordinately lengthy way of getting rid of two sides, involving a lot of either tediously lopsided or hard fought but basically meaningless matches before getting to the business end of proceedings.

As things have worked out, all four groups are actually competitive going into the final round of matches and the number of cricket scores has been small. Some of this no doubt is due to factors like the weaknesses of the 鈥渂ig鈥 NH sides, the relative decline of middle ranking sides like Samoa and sides like SA getting squad rotations a bit wrong but there鈥檚 no doubt that teams like Georgia and Tonga and (at a rather lower level) Romania and the USA are no longer easy meat and are capable on their day of giving anybody a decent game. Even the obvious minnows like Namibia and Portugal have had their moments and I鈥檓 now less of the view that the WC could actually be damaging to rugby in countries where it鈥檚 very much a minority sport struggling for visibility than I was a month ago.

There is however no doubt that having an odd number of sides in the groups is causing serious scheduling problems (as indeed it did last time round), with follow-on issues for coaches (as a Scot, I was thoroughly annoyed by what Frank Hadden did on Sunday but I can also accept that he had an arguable case given the ways the games fall). It鈥檚 all very well saying that the 6N can see sides playing games six days apart but nobody plays three games in eleven days- and the improved quality of the 鈥渓esser鈥 sides makes it harder to risk putting out teams based on squad players against them. The option used eight years ago (five pools of four with play-offs to get into the quarter finals for pool runners up and one third placed side) didn鈥檛 work either. Going up to 24 teams with four groups of six would be an option but could lengthen the tournament, reopen the risk of lots of uncompetitive/irrelevant matches (especially if this WC turns out to be a blip with the 鈥渘ormal鈥 order of things reasserted four years hence), seriously limit the number of potential hosts and possibly put additional strains on the finances of the smaller Unions.

Perhaps the real issue is what happens between WCs. Sides like Georgia really need regular games against the 鈥渂ig鈥 sides (and not just at Twickenham or the Millennium Stadium- or indeed at Eden Gardens; it鈥檚 about time we saw, say, England or the All Blacks playing in Tblisi) if they鈥檙e to develop. I appreciate this is going to cost money but if the IRB are serious about growing the game then funding needs to be put in place to enable it.

  • 7.
  • At 03:59 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Dave Jackson wrote:

Looking through the results of the minnows, I too think that there has been good competitive Rugby at this World Cup.

Perhaps it is time that the 6 nations tournament was expanded again to include one or all of Romania, Georgia or Portugal. Could the Tri-nations be expanded to include Argentina or Fiji. Competing year in and year out against the best will obviously provide more of an edge.

I say this of course with the distinct possibility that Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England could be on a Ferry home after the weekend and 4 "minnow" sides would be competing in the QFs.

  • 8.
  • At 04:01 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • phil wrote:

Its MOOTED as in debated and not MUTED as in its all gone quiet

  • 9.
  • At 04:24 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • manel monteiro wrote:

The whole point of the world cup is variety. I have to say that Portugal was an inspiration to many a 6 nation team who I believe have lost the passion and committment for the game of rugby. If countries like Portugal had a 10th of the money spent in rugby as some of the six nation teams, well I suspect that the so called minnows would soon change and teams like Scotland and Italy would be very worried indeed. A question? what is more predictable a game between NZ v Scotland or Portugal v Romenia and which is more exciting to see??? Food for thought...

  • 10.
  • At 04:27 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Chris Lorigan wrote:

The 'minnows' bring as important and exciting, unpredictable element to the world cup. Their presence helps expand the global game and provide these countries with the chance to develop by playing more highly ranked teams. Enough of the minnows have proven that they deserve a place in the tournament, with several instances of near-upset that has made fans sit up and take notice. If anything, there should be teams added to the competition rather than removed from it after bringing such a dynamic and intriguing performance to the 2007 RWC. As a New Zealander, I would welsome teams like Namibia, Portugal and Georgia to my country.

  • 11.
  • At 04:46 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Peter Emuss wrote:

If you look solely at the World rankings, then the sides outside the top 16 before the tournament started would've been Georgia, Japan, Portugal and Namibia. Out of the four of them, not one has been nilled, despite facing major rugby powers, a fate that England did not escape.

There has been one century beating, which has been balanced out by feats like Cordeiro's try against New Zealand, Endo's length of the pitch score against Wales and Georgia's near miss against Ireland. Imagine how much poorer the World Cup would be without these feats.

Of course, if one were to look at the last teams to qualify for this tournament as the ones who would not be playing here under any reduction, then the nation of Tonga springs immediately to mind...

If an extra tournament, with extra revenue is needed, then perhaps it would be more sensible to have Plate and Shield competitions for 3rd and 4th group placers, as happens in 7s tournaments.

Puja

  • 12.
  • At 04:52 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Dave Jackson wrote:

Looking through the results of the minnows, I too think that there has been good competitive Rugby at this World Cup.

Perhaps it is time that the 6 nations tournament was expanded again to include one or all of Romania, Georgia or Portugal. Could the Tri-nations be expanded to include Argentina or Fiji. Competing year in and year out against the best will obviously provide more of an edge.

I say this of course with the distinct possibility that Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England could be on a Ferry home after the weekend and 4 "minnow" sides would be competing in the QFs.

  • 13.
  • At 05:07 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Ian wrote:

> what is more predictable a game between NZ v Scotland or Portugal v Romenia and which is more exciting to see??? Food for thought...

Japan v Canada recently: 12-12, both teams trying their utmost to get a win, excitement throughout. Contrast that to Scotland v New Zealand or even England v South Africa. The big NH sides might have more talent than the minnows, but the heart and guts that they've put in have been inspirational. How the IRB can even think of cutting the amount of minnows now I don't know.

  • 14.
  • At 05:13 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Alan Melville wrote:

Typical IRB stuff. No to Japan hosting the event, and now a mooted reduction in the number of teams. The blazer brigade at the IRB need to get out and new blood dedicated to the world-wide encouragement of rugby union should come in. How about a few (recent) former players like Sean Fitzpatrick, Francois Pienaar, Will Carling or David Sole. People who've been involved at the highest competitive level but have no time for the old farts that ru(i)n the game.

  • 15.
  • At 05:16 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Alan Melville wrote:

Why can't the 大象传媒 fix its bloody systems? I'm fed up of having to rewrite everything a dozen times before the bloody scripting finally decides to work. Get some competent software people for chrissakes!

Anyway to the topic in hand; this is typical IRB blazer brigade politics, exactly the same as giving the next WC to NZ instead of Japan. We need new blood who have actually played the game at the highest level RECENTLY, and are dedicated to expanding rugby world-wide, not the current stodgy adminstrators still living in the 50s and desperate to keep the status quo. I suggest a few ex-captains: Fitzpatrick, Pienaar, Carling, Sole - guys like that.

  • 16.
  • At 05:18 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Paul wrote:

I couldn't agree more. The Portugese scrapped their way through god knows how many qualifying matches to get to the tournament in the first place and now they, Georgia, Namibia, et al are being palmed off with the promise of the extra cash being 'spread amongst the developing nations'. what garbage. There may have been some one sided matches, but despite conceding over 100 points against New Zealand, Portugal played a damn site better than England did against South Africa. And they scored!! Does that mean England can't come to the next world cup? Of course not, so why deny others? All the 'second tier nations' (a suitably patronising phrase) came to the cup to play, not just make up the numbers. The best thing for world rugby is to spread the game as far and wide as possible, so lets not deny developing nations their fifteen minutes of fame. After all, dont we all secretly wish for a massive upset when teams like Australia go up against team like Japan? I know I do.

  • 17.
  • At 05:23 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Paul wrote:

I couldn't agree more. The Portugese scrapped their way through god knows how many qualifying matches to get to the tournament in the first place and now they, Georgia, Namibia, et al are being palmed off with the promise of the extra cash being 'spread amongst the developing nations'. what garbage. There may have been some one sided matches, but despite conceding over 100 points against New Zealand, Portugal played a damn site better than England did against South Africa. And they scored!! Does that mean England can't come to the next world cup? Of course not, so why deny others? All the 'second tier nations' (a suitably patronising phrase) came to the cup to play, not just make up the numbers. The best thing for world rugby is to spread the game as far and wide as possible, so lets not deny developing nations their fifteen minutes of fame. After all, dont we all secretly wish for a massive upset when teams like Australia go up against team like Japan? I know I do.

  • 18.
  • At 05:32 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Ally wrote:

Agree with all the comments, expansion of the global game is the only way forward for rugby...expand the tri nations to inc Samoa, Fiji and Argentina and expand the 6nations to 10 nations, two tiers of 5 teams with promotion and relegation

any thoughts??

  • 19.
  • At 05:40 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Alan Melville wrote:

Why can't the 大象传媒 fix its bloody systems? I'm fed up of having to rewrite everything a dozen times before the bloody scripting finally decides to work. Get some competent software people for chrissakes!

Anyway to the topic in hand; this is typical IRB blazer brigade politics, exactly the same as giving the next WC to NZ instead of Japan. We need new blood who have actually played the game at the highest level RECENTLY, and are dedicated to expanding rugby world-wide, not the current stodgy adminstrators still living in the 50s and desperate to keep the status quo. I suggest a few ex-captains: Fitzpatrick, Pienaar, Carling, Sole - guys like that.

  • 20.
  • At 06:02 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Ally wrote:

Agree with all the comments, expansion of the global game is the only way forward for rugby...expand the tri nations to inc Samoa, Fiji and Argentina and expand the 6nations to 10 nations, two tiers of 5 teams with promotion and relegation

any thoughts??

  • 21.
  • At 06:53 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Peter Emuss wrote:

If you look solely at the World rankings, then the sides outside the top 16 before the tournament started would've been Georgia, Japan, Portugal and Namibia. Out of the four of them, not one has been nilled, despite facing major rugby powers, a fate that England did not escape.

There has been one century beating, which has been balanced out by feats like Cordeiro's try against New Zealand, Endo's length of the pitch score against Wales and Georgia's near miss against Ireland. Imagine how much poorer the World Cup would be without these feats.

Of course, if one were to look at the last teams to qualify for this tournament as the ones who would not be playing here under any reduction, then the nation of Tonga springs immediately to mind...

If an extra tournament, with extra revenue is needed, then perhaps it would be more sensible to have Plate and Shield competitions for 3rd and 4th group placers, as happens in 7s tournaments.

Puja

  • 22.
  • At 07:40 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Mike wrote:

All smacks of "here little boys, there's a ball for you, now go away while the big guys play".
What is the point in trying to develop a World game if it's to be the exclusive property of no more than 10 or 12 nations in perpetuity.
My own country (which puts out a team that actually uses players from 2 different political units - one a sovereign republic, the other a UK region) Ireland, should not, on a point of principle, support this move. What irony if, and it would take a fluke of huge proportions, Georgia were to finish third in Pool D after this w/e's last two games!

  • 23.
  • At 07:49 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Jaco Wium wrote:

Great stuff - I have never seen such unanimous agreement amongst rugby lovers about anything! The "would you rather watch Rom vs Por or NZ vs Sco" question is definitely worth a pause -- and it doesn't really take more than a second or 2 to know the answer. The so-called minnows have provided the highlights of the pool stages and should the IRB go and reduce their numbers, I'd simply lose a whole lot of interest in the whole shebang.

They've proved themselves, now let's see if the old farts noticed.

  • 24.
  • At 09:32 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Liam wrote:

No way should the number of teams be reduced for future RWCs (also on an aside what 'brilliant' timing from the IRB). The only problem is the 5-teams-in-a-pool, which leads to scheduling difficulties and the farce that was NZ vs Sco. However, I'm afraid I can't offer any suggestions as to better formats!

  • 25.
  • At 10:07 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Michael wrote:

There may be a best of both worlds possibility here. Keep the RWC at 20 teams but host a qualifying tournament a year or 18 months before the finals that will include all teams that don't make it through to the quarter finals this year to determine the 12 slots for the big event.

If you hosted a 20 nation qualifying tournament, a lot of countries who don't get the chance to play top-notch sides would have an additional opportunity to get some competition in a non-RWC year, and it would be easier for the IRB to host the tournament in Japan or the US or elsewhere.

And the competition would be good - you'd likely see at least two 6 nations teams having to qualify (likely Italy and Ireland, assuming Wales beats Fiji), plus Tonga, Samoa, USA, Fiji, Japan, Canada, Italy, Romania, Portugal, Georgia and Namibia. Then just add the next 8 on the rankings chart and there's a second-tier competition that is still high-level, will fairly determine finalists, and give the IRB a great opportunity to spread the game.

  • 26.
  • At 10:09 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • bowselector wrote:

Before the tournamanent i'd have probably agreed with the IRB suggestion. But having seen the heroics of Georgia, Portugal, Tonga, Japan et al how can the IRB go through with this?
The warriors of these so-called minnows have provided the real heart-warming moments of the tournament. Who outside of ireland was not urging Georgia on in the closing few minutes of that match?
How much more money could be raised for the growth of the world game if the IRB allowed sponsorship rights on th shirts for these smaller nations during their 15 minutes of fame on the global stage?
I agree the smaller teams need more than six months to prepare for the world cup but surely that's for the IRB to sort out the qualifying situatiion so they now more than a year beforehand?
Let Japan host the tournament in 2015, allow sponsorship rights on the shirt, keep the this beautiful tournament 20 teams strong and long live ben dirs and tom for the best blogs on the planet!

  • 27.
  • At 10:17 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • bowselector wrote:

Before the tournamanent i'd have probably agreed with the IRB suggestion. But having seen the heroics of Georgia, Portugal, Tonga, Japan et al how can the now IRB go through with this?
The warriors of these so-called minnows have provided the real heart-warming moments of the tournament. Who outside of ireland was not urging Georgia on in the closing few minutes of that match?
How much more money could be raised for the growth of the world game if the IRB allowed sponsorship rights on th shirts for these smaller nations during their 15 minutes of fame on the global stage?
I agree the smaller teams need more than six months to prepare for the world cup but surely that's for the IRB to sort out the qualifying situatiion so they now more than a year beforehand?
Let Japan host the tournament in 2015, allow sponsorship rights on the shirt, keep the this beautiful tournament 20 teams strong and long live ben dirs and tom for the best blogs on the planet!

  • 28.
  • At 10:41 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Donnyballgame wrote:

Are the IRB really as shortsighted as they appear to be? Has anyone is that esteemed organisation actually watched this RWC? If so, they would have seen that virtually every interesting match included at least one of the so called 鈥榤innows鈥. And did anyone observe the crowds in any of those matches? They were mesmerized. And don鈥檛 you think that had an impact on the 鈥榤innow鈥? If you鈥檒l pardon the expression: This was great stuff.

So:
Are we trying to bring more people to our sport?
Are we trying to increase awareness of rugby globally?
Are we trying to improve TV ratings and exposure globally?
Are we trying to increase our playing base globally?

Then limiting the number of teams in the RWC is exactly the wrong approach. The goal is always to get to the top tournament. Anything less has significantly less importance. To assume a separate second tier competition will draw similar crowds as RWC matches for the lesser matches is also wrong. And having a second tier competition once again gives the impression of a closed shop, and this is what must be avoided at all costs.

The goal is to grow, not fade backwards.

Do you believe Ireland would refer to Georgia as a Minnow?
Or the Springboks refer to Tonga as Minnows?

Is the reason for reducing the number of teams at the next RWC due to the lack of hotel rooms and suitable stadiums in NZ?


  • 29.
  • At 10:42 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Donnyballgame wrote:

Are the IRB really as shortsighted as they appear to be? Has anyone is that esteemed organisation actually watched this RWC? If so, they would have seen that virtually every interesting match included at least one of the so called 鈥榤innows鈥. And did anyone observe the crowds in any of those matches? They were mesmerized. And don鈥檛 you think that had an impact on the 鈥榤innow鈥? If you鈥檒l pardon the expression: This was great stuff.

So:
Are we trying to bring more people to our sport?
Are we trying to increase awareness of rugby globally?
Are we trying to improve TV ratings and exposure globally?
Are we trying to increase our playing base globally?

Then limiting the number of teams in the RWC is exactly the wrong approach. The goal is always to get to the top tournament. Anything less has significantly less importance. To assume a separate second tier competition will draw similar crowds as RWC matches for the lesser matches is also wrong. And having a second tier competition once again gives the impression of a closed shop, and this is what must be avoided at all costs.

The goal is to grow, not fade backwards.

Do you believe Ireland would refer to Georgia as a Minnow?
Or the Springboks refer to Tonga as Minnows?

Is the reason for reducing the number of teams at the next RWC due to the lack of hotel rooms and suitable stadiums in NZ?


  • 30.
  • At 10:43 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Donnyballgame wrote:

Are the IRB really as shortsighted as they appear to be? Has anyone is that esteemed organisation actually watched this RWC? If so, they would have seen that virtually every interesting match included at least one of the so called 鈥榤innows鈥. And did anyone observe the crowds in any of those matches? They were mesmerized. And don鈥檛 you think that had an impact on the 鈥榤innow鈥? If you鈥檒l pardon the expression: This was great stuff.

So:
Are we trying to bring more people to our sport?
Are we trying to increase awareness of rugby globally?
Are we trying to improve TV ratings and exposure globally?
Are we trying to increase our playing base globally?

Then limiting the number of teams in the RWC is exactly the wrong approach. The goal is always to get to the top tournament. Anything less has significantly less importance. To assume a separate second tier competition will draw similar crowds as RWC matches for the lesser matches is also wrong. And having a second tier competition once again gives the impression of a closed shop, and this is what must be avoided at all costs.

The goal is to grow, not fade backwards.

Do you believe Ireland would refer to Georgia as a Minnow?
Or the Springboks refer to Tonga as Minnows?

Is the reason for reducing the number of teams at the next RWC due to the lack of hotel rooms and suitable stadiums in NZ?


  • 31.
  • At 11:05 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Donnyballgame wrote:

And another thing. Why are there so few messages here, for an issue of relative importance?

The blog over the Haka, which has almost no importance in the big scheme of things had over 700 messages. Where is the perspective?

Keep the competition at 20 or we will have a lesser competition. Simple.

  • 32.
  • At 11:16 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Pasquale wrote:

Without the minnows this tournament would simply be an condemnation of the NH by he SH, and there would be little else to discuss.

  • 33.
  • At 11:17 PM on 28 Sep 2007,
  • Andy wrote:

I agree with all the comments (including the ones about the 大象传媒 scripting issues).
What i would like to see is the RWC go to Argentina to bring the game into the latin nations, Japan, because they are enthusiastic about these types of events (they do have a (reasonably) successful league), and to the USA where rugby will be able to benefit from an influx of NFL rejects. Americans like a good show and why not bring the show to them during the NFL off-season to maximise the coverage.
I have my doubts about them joining the 6 nations, but I would like to see a 'second tier' RWC mid-way between the RWC proper to give the 'minnows' experience of tournament rugby. I agree that bigger teams should play the others once in a while with maybe even the 'A' teams playing in my proposed alternative RWC.

  • 34.
  • At 02:19 AM on 29 Sep 2007,
  • John Laidlaw wrote:

I totally agree with the idea of the 'minnows' staying in the world cup. They are improving year on year, and have added so much to this tournament. As we know that 12 positions in the 2011 World Cup will have already been taken by the end of the weekend, it'll make it far too hard for many rising nations to make it into the four final positions (And let's face it, the IRB know who'll be taking those four positions- Samoa, USA, Canada, Japan). In order to expand the game, and make the tournament just as exciting, we can not turn it into a two tier system. The tournament should, nay must be kept at twenty teams. If you want to have a secondary tournament for the nations that didn't make it to the world cup, all very well, but sixteen teams is far too small.

And now I'm going to sound a bit contradictory. Though I think the IRB should look for new ways to welcome these so called 'minnows, I'm not so happy about expanding the six nations, which is a very traditional part of the British sporting calendar. It has worked perfectly ever since the introduction of Italy, but I think the six-team structure is big enough already, and perfectly geographically centred. I also think a two tier league would rightly disappoint long-standing fans of England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland or France should they be demoted to a secondary tournament. It's very important that Rugby should be expanded to other countries, but if possible it shouldn't be done in a way which will put off fans in existing Rugby strongholds.

My ideal world solution would be a) a current size or slightly larger world cup; b) a proper annual Pacific Six Nations, with Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Canada, The USA and Japan; c) An annual European Cup for Georgia, Romania, Portugal, Germany, Russia etc. (possibly with some guest teams from the Six Nations every year); d) Some sort of provision for African rugby, perhaps tours from the Home Nations (a sort of African Churchill Cup) and some sort of annual/biannual African tournament; e) bringing Argentina into the Southern Hemisphere four-nations; f) Taking the 2015 World Cup to Japan, Argentina or Italy. Obviously, this is all a bit ideal world, but I can't see anything extremely fantastic about the suggestions. Do this sort of thing, and by 2015 we should be enlarging the tournament to 24 teams.

  • 35.
  • At 03:40 AM on 29 Sep 2007,
  • Bruce wrote:

Why not 8 pools of 4 teams at the next Cup.

16 teams going on to play for QF spots.

This means the same number of weeks as now - and all teams playing once every 7 days.

And apart form the top 12 or so teams - the rest - the minnows would battle for the last 4 places in the top 16 round.

I would have the 6 Nations teams, the Tri-Series teams and Fiji/Samoa/Argentina as automatic qualifyers (based on their record at past World Cups).

Deciding the final 20 places determioned by a tournament a year before the World Cup. The top 24 (13-36) in 8 groups of 3.

The top 8 in QF/SF/F
The next 8 in QF/SF/F
to determine the 13-32 rankings at the World Cup
The last 8 in a playoff match for the final 4 spots.

Perhaps this tournament could be held at the World Cup venues as a trial run to prepare them for it?

  • 36.
  • At 07:02 AM on 29 Sep 2007,
  • Hunter M wrote:

The IRB/RWC is a cartel where only the eight "major" countries have awarded themselves 2 votes plus one each to Argentina, Italy, Canada and Japan. The remaining 90 rugby playing countries have zero votes! This makes them a pariah in the Olympic movement and explains all of their decision making, which is to maintain the status quo.
The big eight are also the only countries which have genuine professional rugby, which can fill large stadia and thus generate large income. The IRB, although it does not say so, obviously, regards might as being right. They also hand out small amounts, but for small countries important sums, to the minnows. There is a constant fear among many of them that to criticise the non-democratic hegemony of the ruling clique in the IRB will result in a sudden reduction in aid.
In a better world, things would be different. There is no particular reason why, for instance, Scotland, should be among the top ten in the world. But they have spent 30 million pounds (including 20 million still owed to the bank) to maintain this position. Think what the South Sea Islanders, Romania, Georgia, Namibia, Canada, Portugal and a host of others could have achieved if they had been able to beg or borrow similar sums!
A couple of other comments to previous contributions.
a) The RWC in Argentina? Anyone who attended the World Sevens Championships in 2001 in Mar del Plata (we were around a total of 1000 overseas supporters who managed to make in the face of stout opposition from the organisers) will know that the Argentinians are admirable people and rugby players, but that they should never be given responsibility for organising anything.
b) Shortage of hotel rooms and stadia in N.Z.? I think this is quite near the mark. There are only two large stadia and around ten with 30,000 plus. Not sure either how many New Zealanders will turn out in, say, Invercargill to watch Portugal play Namibia. Cutting the teams from 20 to 16 will reduce the number of games by 16 but probably not by much in terms of revenue. Gates also reported to be down around 30% recently in N.Z. Could this be because the young whites are playing less and the major teams including the All Blacks are turning into Polynesian selects?

  • 37.
  • At 10:14 AM on 29 Sep 2007,
  • matt wrote:

To everyone on here that says Argentina should join Tri-Nations Sounds good but have you ever looked at a thing called a Map? do you know how far apart SA-Aussie-NZ-Argentina are? these teams will have to travel all around the world to play the game. Plus most if not all of Argentinas player play in Europe. Would their clubs let them go for the month or so to play the games?

Would you as fans or Players play in say London - LA- Toyko- Paris.

Yes Set up an America's Comp
Yes let Tonga/Samoa/Fiji into S14
Anyway Wont SA be joining the 6N any way? they complain about travelling to Australia and NZ

  • 38.
  • At 10:23 AM on 29 Sep 2007,
  • Anonymous wrote:

Following england v tonga last night:

"We need help in the Islands, we need all the help we can get. The only time we get to play these guys (the major teams) is the World Cup," flanker Latu told reporters after Saturday's gallant defeat.

Why would anyone want to take away the world cup from the Islands? Playing big games like this is the only way they will ever improve and raise the rugby profile of their country internationally. Personally I'd like to see one or more pacific islands team in the tri nations as has been mooted countless times. The arguments/complaints about large scorelines are usually from those with a lack of understanding about the game. No one complains when a football teams wins 6 - 1 and yet this is really the same as 100+ points in rugby in terms of achievement. It just sounds a lot worse in rugby terms because the numbers are so much higher!

  • 39.
  • At 10:22 PM on 29 Sep 2007,
  • disraeli51 wrote:

While I don't have very strong views about minnows in or minnows out. The performance of the Pacific Island "minnows" against the massive wealth, player base and game history of the six nations teams is extraordinary. Some basic data might suggest that the three Pacific nations shouldn't be able to mount a challenge. The three island nations of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji have an accumulated population of 1.2 million; a land mass of just over 9,000 square miles; a total GDP of around US$6.6 billion and total exports of US$990 million.

If such minnows are to be excluded, then the wealthy elite of the six nations need to show that they are so vastly superior that the Pacific nations (for instance) are not good enough.

Could there be a faint smell of colonialism coming from the game's elite countries? I'm interested to hear these countries definition of a "world cup" event where the "world" is defined by those who have a vested interest in the definition of the "world"!!!

To a country like Tonga, success on the world stage in anything is rare. The opportunity afforded the country by the RWC may be transitory, but we must be cautious before denying that something worthwhile may come out of a game of rugby for Tonga.

  • 40.
  • At 10:32 PM on 29 Sep 2007,
  • disraeli51 wrote:

While I don't have very strong views about minnows in or minnows out. The performance of the Pacific Island "minnows" against the massive wealth, player base and game history of the six nations teams is extraordinary. Some basic data might suggest that the three Pacific nations shouldn't be able to mount a challenge. The three island nations of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji have an accumulated population of 1.2 million; a land mass of just over 9,000 square miles; a total GDP of around US$6.6 billion and total exports of US$990 million.

If such minnows are to be excluded, then the wealthy elite of the six nations need to show that they are so vastly superior that the Pacific nations (for instance) are not good enough.

Could there be a faint smell of colonialism coming from the game's elite countries? I'm interested to hear these countries definition of a "world cup" event where the "world" is defined by those who have a vested interest in the definition of the "world"!!!

To a country like Tonga, success on the world stage in anything is rare. The opportunity afforded the country by the RWC may be transitory, but we must be cautious before denying that something worthwhile may come out of a game of rugby for Tonga.

  • 41.
  • At 10:37 PM on 29 Sep 2007,
  • disraeli51 wrote:

While I don't have very strong views about minnows in or minnows out. The performance of the Pacific Island "minnows" against the massive wealth, player base and game history of the six nations teams is extraordinary. Some basic data might suggest that the three Pacific nations shouldn't be able to mount a challenge. The three island nations of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji have an accumulated population of 1.2 million; a land mass of just over 9,000 square miles; a total GDP of around US$6.6 billion and total exports of US$990 million.

If such minnows are to be excluded, then the wealthy elite of the six nations need to show that they are so vastly superior that the Pacific nations (for instance) are not good enough.

Could there be a faint smell of colonialism coming from the game's elite countries? I'm interested to hear these countries definition of a "world cup" event where the "world" is defined by those who have a vested interest in the definition of the "world"!!!

To a country like Tonga, success on the world stage in anything is rare. The opportunity afforded the country by the RWC may be transitory, but we must be cautious before denying that something worthwhile may come out of a game of rugby for Tonga.

  • 42.
  • At 08:44 AM on 30 Sep 2007,
  • Mr B wrote:

To be a head coach in Wales is bassed on a RESULTS BASSIS.
Mr Jenkins seems to of dug a grave not just for hime but his staff to.
Im sure all his staff have discussed what would happen if yesterdays game ended in defeat....
Is it time to start looking for the best man for the job and maybe not the best welshman for the job.One question to ask...Can Wales do better under a different coach?? if the answer is yes, then its time for a change, its as simple as that !!! (now)..

  • 43.
  • At 11:12 AM on 30 Sep 2007,
  • Pete wrote:

大象传媒 is a bit slow today. Jenkins has gone - sacked. ICWales have it, come on 大象传媒, supposedly 24 hour news, let's have the story then.

  • 44.
  • At 09:07 PM on 30 Sep 2007,
  • Andy wrote:

A response to a few comments. There is already a 2nd division to the 6 nations in europe. There is also a 3rd, 4th and a 5th tiers if you like each with promotion and relegation between them with competition held over 2 years. This is called the European Nations Cup and teams like Georgia, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Russia and Czech Republic in the 1st division.

Anyway I think development of rugby might come from the 7s tournaments and most importantly with the inclusion of 7s in the Olympics. They've ditched baseball and softball from the London Games and Jacques Rogge is a rugby man having played with the Belgium National Team.

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