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Mark Orlovac

England in the final mood (86)

Paris - The headlines said it all.

鈥淩ageant鈥 (infuriating) and 鈥淯ne Frustration Infinie鈥 (you can guess what that one means) screamed the press as France awoke after another draining evening with the realisation that for them, their .

The French inquest into the events that occurred at the Stade de France was already underway in earnest, with many supporters questioning why Lionel Beauxis was taken off so early in the second half.

For England, victory in Saturday's semi-final has led to a completely different set of questions as delirious fans, many with slightly fuzzy heads and still in shock at the weekend鈥檚 events, contemplate another World Cup final.

How to get tickets for next week is likely to be at the top of the list but there is another query that stands out.

How have England picked themselves up from the shambles of the South Africa drubbing to develop into a side that are just 80 minutes away from becoming the first side to retain the Webb Ellis Trophy?

It has been some transformation.

And as England鈥檚 weary players met their obligations in speaking to the media hordes following Saturday's victory, some seemed genuinely stunned by what has happened in this campaign.

鈥淚t took four years and maybe even longer to get to the World Cup final in 2003 and this squad has been together for just 16 weeks,鈥 said flanker Lewis Moody. 鈥淭o be in the World Cup final again is just surreal at the minute. It鈥檚 incredible.鈥

England seemed down and out when the Springboks stormed to a comprehensive win on that dark night of 14 September. There was no surely way back for a team producing error-strewn and directionless displays.

But wind forward four weeks, and England now look a different side. Moody knows exactly when the recovery began.

鈥淭hat South Africa game was the making of this team,鈥 he said. 鈥淲e鈥檇 beaten Wales and that had given us false confidence. Then we lost to France twice, played poorly against USA and got smashed by the Springboks.

"After that match it was time for an honest sit-down. We said that it was not good enough and that we are not playing with any spirit or attitude.

鈥淲e discussed it as a squad and we put it right. The players have stuck together through thick and thin. We took a lot of abuse early on, a lot of it was probably warranted for the way we were playing, but we have bounced back as strong as ever.

鈥淭he squad have come through some incredibly hard times and to change that around is just phenomenal.鈥

Moody, the Leicester back-rower who was one of England's heroes on Saturday night, says the run of four victories since that Springbok debacle have played a vital part in lifting the spirits of the squad.

moody438.jpg

鈥淭he confidence is growing and we feel we can win any game,鈥 he said. 鈥淭hat鈥檚 something you never would have expected after we lost to South Africa.

鈥淭he effort and the commitment against France, especially in the last few minutes, when they were running it from everywhere, was phenomenal.

鈥淪imon Shaw said his battery had run out with around 10 minutes to go. He was just on auto pilot following the ball around and making tackles.

鈥淏ut it鈥檚 that sort of commitment that we need. There is one game left now and anything can happen.鈥

Centre Mathew Tait, who watched the 2003 World Cup final in his Barnard Castle School sixth form common room, admitted that the final would be 鈥渢he biggest game of my life鈥 but insisted that England must not lose their focus.

鈥淚t will take a couple of days to sink in that we are in the final and 80 minutes from making history. There is an inner belief and it is important for us to continue that through to next week.

鈥淲e won the semi-final but we have not won a thing yet. It鈥檚 fantastic to be in the final but no-one remembers who came second.鈥

England鈥檚 players would have talked all night but rugby director Rob Andrew eventually ushered them out of the press room, mindful of the people that were already waiting on the bus.

The image I was left with was seeing a haunted-looking , holding an ice pack and sporting a massive black eye, solemnly winding his way past the waiting reporters.

The Sale hardman, who has been such an iconic figure during this World Cup, had even been reduced to tears at the final whistle.

And as Tait rightfully observed: 鈥淚t鈥檚 been a strange old week.鈥


Mark Orlovac is a 大象传媒 Sport journalist based in London. He will be based in Paris for the knockout stages of the Rugby World Cup.


Comments  Post your comment

  • 1.
  • At 12:02 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • tim c wrote:

strange week is right , now we know we have SA.
My body and what is left of my brain is thinking one more game and i am not even playing .
LAP OF THE GODS TIME.
Does not look good for josh , WHO??? is going to replace him, with the minimum of changes,
Well done to argentina nerves and a lack of composure,
made life difficult .Brilliant contribution to a magic tournament
Congratulations to SA for getting to the final and taking advantage of their chances .
Up for grabs time.
Come on the underdogs.SEE YOU IN PAREE !!!!!!!!

  • 2.
  • At 12:13 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Jim wrote:

Imagine this:

The IRB decide that the tournament format is wrong as S Africa have already hammered England 36-0. Fiji are awarded 2nd place as the only team to give S Africa a game.
3/4th Place play-off 鈥 England v Argentina

Then the IRB decide that the Tri-nations should be 2-Tier:
1st Division:
S Africa
Argentina
Fiji

2nd Division:
New Zealand
Australia
Tonga

We are fortunate to have the best player in the most important position. Let鈥檚 see the difference when England play South Africa with Jonny 鈥 I reckon that his direction is worth 37 points to England every game 鈥 we can win it with Jonny. Without him we are useless 鈥 just look at the performances and scorelines without him. Please look after Jonny this week.

  • 3.
  • At 12:15 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • unknown wrote:

yea
lets go england

  • 4.
  • At 12:29 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Ivo wrote:

Not to offend all the Unioin purists out there, but the game needs to change.

England who scored 1 try on the way to the final in the second round is boring... Lets hope against South Africa theere are more tries scored.

I am a league convert and I cant stop jumping out my seat every time a sensational try is scored.

Just my thoughts I guess.

  • 5.
  • At 02:00 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Dan Ryder wrote:

Ivo winning a rugby match is not about flinging the ball around scoring hat fulls of tries, its about getting as many points on the board no matter how they come (just look at N.Zeland a great team beaten by a team who played ugly but effective rugby)

If you want to see lots of tries go back to watching league.

  • 6.
  • At 02:43 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • chris b wrote:

tries tries -

Hmmm how to make sure there are more tries between evenly matched teams that have strong defense. Hmmm - how about removing a couple or players and changing how the breakdown works...

Although rugby league produces running rugby, wonderful tries and hard players with great hands and feet I have to say in my heart I find so much of it boring and one dimensional. Maybe I am just missing some of the subtleties of league but I find the variety of ways in which union can be successfully played much more interesting. Funny thing is it seems most of the rugby playing world agrees.

  • 7.
  • At 02:48 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Ian Lufkin wrote:

As one of the many englishmen living in Australia, I have been bombarded with comments such as "if it wasn't for Johnnie and it was such a boring game and if the French had done this".

I just smile and say nothing.

I like many others know a win however it comes is great news - well done guy's.

  • 8.
  • At 03:21 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Mike wrote:

Just a quick note from a Pom down under. Wasn't the 'ugly' 1 try win by England a far more exciting spectacle than the 4 try victory by SA?

  • 9.
  • At 04:03 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Peter wrote:

Mike, I couldn't agree more. I got up early to watch the SA game and found it had nothing like the tension and excitement of our game when two well matched teams slug it out the way England and France did. Of course the atmosphere from two of the most passionate sets of fans helped !.

I would also disagree the England game was ugly, brutal yes but the despite the intensity the error count was not that high and the tactical game particularly from England was superb.

England to out whit Jake White's men on Saturday and be the first to retain "big ears". Fantasy at the beginning of the tournament but definitely possible now thanks to the grit and determination of a group of players playing for each other and as a team.... Exciting stuff indeed.

  • 10.
  • At 04:19 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Ian wrote:

Here we go again for another nailbiting final. I'm not sure I can cope.

Conspiracy theory for you:

Tries are quick and in ecstasy we (the fans) don't have time to wet ourselves. We don't even consider that Ben Kay is going to fumble a pass and pop over in the corner.

Penalty kicks and drops are a completely different story and in true English fashion prolong our agony as we watch the build up / the teeing up of the ball, for it to sail over / past the sticks. No emotional pain, no national gain. English pysche, antipodean pals, English pysche.

I heard in November 2003 RWC Final Heineken sold 4 million pints in the 30 minutes extra time to soothe English nerves.

RWC October 2007? It's got to be another plot. This time by Philip Morris and the cig companies (allegedly)... I'm back up to smoking fifteen Marlboros per half.

  • 11.
  • At 05:01 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Simon wrote:

In this case the 36-0 game gives England an advantage- it is extra extra motivation.

The key will be turning mistakes into points- so England need to make far fewer than SA- England make a mistake its 7 for SA; SA make a mistake it might be 3 to England, unless Gommersal can get the special bouncing ball again.

So, England- dont throw the ball around in the backs ('cos it'll get intercepted for a try), dont drop the ball in the backs, and dont kick it out unless absolutely necessary- 'cos you wont win a line out.

..and slick hands in the backs are well and pretty, but surely nothing beats a forward drive for beauty?

So, the England coaches need to get a good plan and out think the boks I think- did for the Aussies, gotta do it again Brian.

..and a few changes would also invigorate the team; I think Hipkiss has to come in - even if Lewsey recovers- and much thought is required re the subs for both cover and impact- after all Catt wont last beyond the hour.

Also lets sort out the back of the scrum- front row dominate, push on and then Easter makes a mess- needs lots more practice.

  • 12.
  • At 05:06 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • a kiwi wrote:

Well done England
I see England v France had a higher TV rating than the FA Cup final
That certainly says a lot about the interest in the Rugby world cup
Hopefully that will reflect in greater interest and more spectators and players. A star like Wilko has certainly done wonders for the game

  • 13.
  • At 05:08 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • pominaussieland wrote:

England in the final of the Rugby World Cup - not a headline that I was expecting at the start of the tournament.

However, our lads have got through and to their credit have withstood intense pressure along the way. Despite the 36-0 scoreline the first time around against SA, England made several attacking runs that were haltered just short of the try-line and we played without a kicking game. If you can't score tries and noone kicks - you aint gonna get a lot of points...

In every game since, we have challenged the opposition's defence and have employed a reasonably astute kicking game. Result = victories.

Some media accuse the English side of playing to their strengths like it's a bad thing. Surely every side attempts to do this and if your game plan nullifies the opposition's, then you have outplayed them... Some say it is boring, I say it is tough, gruelling and intense. Not many sides can soak up the pressure and remain composed for the vast majority of the full 80 minutes.

It annoys me when the media goes to great pains to say that Jonny is the only reason why we win. Every man - from defence to attack - has played his part and Jonny's main part is to kick well - although his defence has been outstanding throughout the tournament too. Kicking is a crucial part of this game and we have the best kicker the World Cup has ever seen. I think some of the other nations are a little jealous... I didn't hear anyone whinge when Larkham sunk the South Africans a few years ago with a drop goal or when John Eales converted a late penalty to deny the All Blacks on several occasions... Oh no, that all was BRILLIANT composure and kicking prowess at its best!!! But when Rob Andrews perfected the drop goal and Jonny came along, there has been no end to it...

I think credit should go where it is due. England has an outstanding team, that is well coached, well disciplined, relies on its strengths and can deliver in the important games. Regardless of the final result, the lads have made me feel so proud to be English.

Rule Britania, I say! :-)

  • 14.
  • At 05:13 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Ralph wrote:

Its good to see England come this far to defend the ultimate prize-RWC World Cup at the expense of the French, who played very and more important and fittingly the prize scalp of Australia a week earlier.For England to hoist the throphy on saturday week will add more pain to the SH nations, particularly Australia who will have to wait for more years to get at the old enemy. Go the pommies.

  • 15.
  • At 05:42 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Alistair wrote:

its amazing we got so far I was thinking we wouldn't get out of the pool which being in a Englishmen in Australia is about the worst thing that can happen. But look at us know in the finals again hopefully we can pull it of even if every point is scored by wilkinson.

  • 16.
  • At 07:18 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Alex, Tunbridge Wells wrote:

Amazing.

If England win will there need to be a match fixing inquiry? The early performances were only there to lengthen the odds.

  • 17.
  • At 07:27 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • wrote:

I am an Englishman living in Queensland Australia.I anm wondering why a world cup which comes around only every 4 years, a magnificent showcase, a fabulous advert for rugby worldwide does not have a play off for 7th and 8 th place for The Aussies and Kiwis to contend!!!!!

  • 18.
  • At 08:08 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • chris gadd wrote:

I'm also an Englishman living in Queensland and agree about the 7th and 8th places for the Aussies and Kiwis- but this would also be useful for the Welsh and the Scots!!

  • 19.
  • At 08:53 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Elizabeth wrote:

"I anm wondering why a world cup which comes around only every 4 years, a magnificent showcase, a fabulous advert for rugby worldwide does not have a play off for 7th and 8 th place for The Aussies and Kiwis to contend!!!!!"

Now that would be interesting.

"Regardless of the final result, the lads have made me feel so proud to be English."

Agreed, 100%. The final next week is going to be a phenominal game to watch, no mistake.

I live in a tiny country in the Middle East, and it's amazing how seemingly every Englishman/woman/child have bonded together to support our boys in France. Every one's feeling beyond patriotic, even being thousands of miles away, and the match's being shown at all hours of the day.
Come on boys.

  • 20.
  • At 09:09 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Timbo wrote:

Once upon a time we spoke of "fortress Twickenham". Teams came and teams went, but they failed to break into the Fort. Similarly, the French have Marseilles and the Kiwis have Eden Park.

This bunch of Englishmen have done something different. They have created a fortress in their hearts of oak; an ethereal quality based on team spirit. The thing about tournament rugby is that you can't take a stadium with you on your travels - as the Kiwis have discovered. Because England's "fortress" is in the boys' heads, it can be taken with them - and will hopefully be there again on Saturday night.

I have been thrilled to watch a team who as individuals would struggle to make a "World" XV get all the way to the final - proof, if it were needed, that the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts.

Roll on Saturday - the Final will be won and lost at lineout time: remove the Matfield / Botha threat and England will win. But they are SO good at lineout time it affects the way you play against them.

SLSC

  • 21.
  • At 09:20 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • KB wrote:

Tha above comments are all superb. As we are English we will always be slated for whatever performance we put in.

The press and opposition will only be happy if we put 50+ points passed everyone and throw the ball around with the flair of the French.

As we have seen if you do throw the ball around, as the French did, you should come up against a formidable defense, as they did against England and you find that yet again you have not won a world cup.

I agree with Ian Lufkin's comments above and however we play next Sat, hopefully we will all be smiling for another 4 years!

  • 22.
  • At 09:23 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • John A wrote:

England are a good team but france are crap !!! no wonder they won they are propa crap i the only thing i love is PIESSSSSS!!!!

  • 23.
  • At 09:36 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Michael wrote:

Firstly l am French supporter, secondly l am Rugby supporter. As such, l do not see the final as a foregone conclusion for SA. The result they got against England is gone. That English team is not this one.

England have the ability to close SA down and frustrate them. SA's discipline will be tested to the full. Habana is a threat but so is Robinson and Robinson is more composed. Habana lost his composure when the USA winger outpaced him for a try.

lf Fiji had scored those tries against SA that they should have done l think the result could have been very different.

SA are favourites to win but so were NZ against us and Aus and France were against England.

England are again underdogs so they have nothing to lose. They have one match to play and will give everything. SA will not find them easy ... we certainly did not.

  • 24.
  • At 09:42 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • simon parsons wrote:

What is this "boring" and "ugly" talk?
I have followed the England football team since the 70's, they have often played boring and unamaginative football. But the England rugby team? boring - you must be joking! They have taken the game to the opposition, playing positive and and courageous rubgy, they are a team to be proud of. And you can be sure of one thing, if the All Blacks had just beaten Australia and then France in paris in the world cup semi their supporters and press would not be talking of ugly rugby. In fact both the Australia and France game demonstrated all that is good in rugby union, if the game was about running in tries every few minutes we wouldnt have the interesting range of athletes playing. This is not rugby league, 7's or anything else it is rugby union played at it's best. Well done England!

  • 25.
  • At 09:51 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • tom de lucy wrote:

7th v 8th place, australia v new zealand is happening...next year, bledisloe cup

  • 26.
  • At 10:08 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Michelle wrote:

Congrats! South Africa

I am a South African living in Sweden and am absolutely thrilled with SAs performance!!!!!!
They have been consistent and it feels good to have something this big to cheer for.
1995 brings back so many memories.

All the best for the final.

  • 27.
  • At 10:52 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • ishouldstartworkingnow wrote:

I don't know how much this is going to sway things on the day, but here's a thought. The last three times England have played SA, we've been slaughtered, but thats playing into our hands in a weird way.

We have experienced first hand what its like playing them and what we can expect. They on the other hand have played two c list teams, then a team still finding its feet and lacking a fly half.

Whereas we have a team that will go into the final knowing what to expect, they will face a team they've defeated three times in hollow victories, that has toppled a string of bookies favourites and that wants revenge. This whole enigmatic dark horse thing might just give England a slight psychological edge...

  • 28.
  • At 11:04 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • DJ wrote:

Good on yer Michelle, here's to a cracking Final!

  • 29.
  • At 11:17 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Kenn wrote:

why does everyone assume it is only about scoring tries? it is about scoring at least one point more than the opposition- thats the reason they put those sticks up in the middle.
if you dont score many tries, then what you need to do is make sure you dont conceed many. last time i checked, that is exactly what england have done- simple but effective and it is that that has got them through to the final. its another challenge next weekend but it aint over til its over. why doesnt anybody call the aggressive bordering illegal attitude of berger or the south sea islanders tacklers winning ugly?

  • 30.
  • At 11:18 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Kenn wrote:

why does everyone assume it is only about scoring tries? it is about scoring at least one point more than the opposition- thats the reason they put those sticks up in the middle.
if you dont score many tries, then what you need to do is make sure you dont conceed many. last time i checked, that is exactly what england have done- simple but effective and it is that that has got them through to the final. its another challenge next weekend but it aint over til its over. why doesnt anybody call the aggressive bordering illegal attitude of berger or the south sea islanders tacklers winning ugly?

  • 31.
  • At 11:24 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Inno wrote:

Am an avid follower of the England Rugby team from SA and I must say the way the boys have conducted themselves by not giving away too many penalties and turnovers could be the answer to winning the world cup....SA are just a bucnh of indisciplined lads who will lose it if Jonnhy starta droping goals......Good luck England

  • 32.
  • At 11:40 AM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • DBH wrote:

Re 17 and 25, given that NZ had beaten Scotland and Australia beaten Fiji, surely NZ v Oz would be playoff for 5th (that would be ignominy enough!).

  • 33.
  • At 12:02 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Simon wrote:

This is the big one!

The 36-0 win for SA in the group stages has it seems done us a huge favour. It should have been more.

I think England will win because like Aus and NZ in previous rounds , SA have not had to anything to get to the final. Lucky against the Tonga, Lucky against Fiji, and fortunately played well on Argentinas mistakes, as Pienaar said the score did not reflect the game, argentina had nearly all the play and possession. England are the team going in on form with 4 big wins from 4 massive matches.

I can't help thinking that SA might also be rather arrogant at the propect of playing England in the final, having done it all before. Once that mindset comes on it takes a lot to shift it.

Everyone is raving about Habana but get him going backwards and he is suspect as Fiji and Tonga both showed.

Not only an England win, but I think compared to previous games a comfortable one by 7-10 points.

Don't worry guys it's all been sorted!

  • 34.
  • At 12:06 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Tel wrote:

OK enoughs enough, lets hear the arguments for not bringing Faz back for the final.

  • 35.
  • At 12:19 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Philip wrote:

England has improved so much that they must be the best team in world at the moment. With the world nr 1 flyhalf, Jonny Wilkenson, they are an unstoppable machine! I am hoping SA will beat but the english is looking superior in all aspects of the game. SA will be lucky to lose by less than 10 points. Good luck to the Springboks.

  • 36.
  • At 12:23 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Eric Savage wrote:

There's quite some hype about Jonny's kicking, but nobody on this form has mentioned the tournament's number one placekicker (Chris Patterson aside). Percy strutted his usual stuff last night with 7/7 from all angles and Steyn can kick from his own half. Admittedly dropkicks are another story. While England shouldn't be risking interceptions to Habana, maybe they shouldn't risk penalties either!

  • 37.
  • At 12:23 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Etienne wrote:

Its gona be a good one. Even as a South African I have been following England over the last weeks and must say well done (with my heart still with the boks).

The game is sure to be electric with most of France, I would guess, being behind SA now. This should add to the tention in the stadium making it an epic event. If England get a couple over SA early it could be interesting, but once the boks get going I fear England are going to have a big task on their hands.

Good luck to all its sure to be great for Rugby.

e

  • 38.
  • At 12:28 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Craig wrote:

Remember Eng. have not played any reasonable oponents besides their narrow victory over the shody looking Australian outfit and their 36-0 drumming by SA. Am sure they will play out of their skins but just as SA cannot look at the past month in an attempt to draw confidence neither can Eng. Think it will be alot more of an even battle than many expect. (Both sa and Eng fan)

  • 39.
  • At 12:29 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Ken wrote:

england need to bring in a second reliable pressure goal kicker. far be it to say that SA can be at time overly aggressive! with 60 mins gone- catty back on the bench in a tight game, wilko gets injured or gets taken out. its far too much pressure to put on the new boys- farrell has shown time and time again in pressure situations he can be turned to. an being a true england rugby fan, who else? dont just look at the codes, look at the stats!

  • 40.
  • At 12:32 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • ian wrote:

this blog is filled with over confident englishmen, it's a great comeback story but it is still stupid not to give South Africa credit, one thing you must realize is that SA will not lay down in any final + Jake White has started to prepare for England 4 years ago, knowing he will meet the world CHAMPS in the group phases, he prepared for the best english team and frankly you are not the 2003 team this year.

England can win, sure, but if you watched the super 14 this year you would have realized that there will be 2 teams that will be very hard to beat in the rwc, NZ and SA, the rugby was awesome and yes the all blacks was rested the first part of the competition but semi's was 4 sides with their best players on the field. NZ loosing will happen 1 out of 10, so lucky englishmen,they would have killed you, and Australia, well they have been struggeling the past 2 years so I am not surprised about their early departure, and the French, who knows what french team will pitch up at the game, they can be the best and the worst in one week. Again I am not saying England doesn't stand a chance, I just wish you won't be so narrow minded, give SA, arguably the no.2 team in the world the past 2 years a bit off respect.

if 37-13 against a form team in a semi-final of a rwc was not good enough or 36-0 against the defending champs (without JW, the best player the rugby universe has ever seen)in the group stages was not a big scare or the staying cool in the last 20min of two nailbiters against "lesser teams" was not showing character then I don't know. Australia and France could'nt keep their heads cool against a smaller opponent..Anyway I don't think England has much to offer, if they win it will be SA that played like idiots, I was glad when the French beat NZ but what a final SA and NZ would have been!

  • 41.
  • At 12:33 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • dowenwilliam wrote:

Lets hope if England do win we can all be a little more gracious than Greenwood managed in his commentary last night. I was ashamed by his comments to the extent I watched the second half with the volume down. His smug, gloating attitude reflected poorly on him, ITV and the country as a whole. His job was supposed to provide expert analysis, but he was too busy reminising about Lions tours from over 10 years ago, or making school boy jokes about NZ/Aus

  • 42.
  • At 12:33 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • grassy knoll wrote:

timbo,

couldn't agree more. England need to sharpen up at the lineout on their own ball and start competing against the SA throw in. If not, we're toast.

  • 43.
  • At 12:37 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Sweeper wrote:

If Jonny puts over all his kicks, England will win - simple.

  • 44.
  • At 12:55 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Briwat wrote:

In response to 'Jim' (12:13 15 October)JW is brilliant but he is not a one-man team. Who do you think provides him with the opportunities to score points??

  • 45.
  • At 01:06 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • grassy knoll wrote:

dowenwilliam,

spot on. The greenwood gibberish reached new heights last night during Arg. v SA. My particular favourite was 'left foot, right foot, grassy knoll' when talking about Hernadez's kicking ability.

  • 46.
  • At 01:07 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Ken wrote:

its pointless thinking how good the final would have been if it was NZ-SA the fact is, it isnt.
argentina were a shadow of the team that played against france and ireland so efficiently in the earlier stages of the tournament, pienaar said it-the score flattered. two interceptions and a deflated argentinian side had had enough.
36-0 against the defending champs- ok. but that isnt important now. not a full hand was shown, no outhalf and our best break lead to the form man pulling his hamstring. the pressure that the argentinian front row placed on you will be enough to give all the front row confidence, coupled with the JW factor, and robbo back is going to give you a push all the way to the 80th minute and past it...

  • 47.
  • At 01:07 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • buzzwhite wrote:

Can someone explain to a pom living in NZ and Australia for the last 6 years what we English have done to deserve such vitriol. I have not heard a Kiwi or Aussie media commentator say a good word for any English team in the last 6 years. I have heard a Kiwi professional TV commentator call Clive Woodward 'a despicable man'.
Listen to the current whingeing from the southern hemisphere. Boring England. Was the game against France more boring than the spiritless All Black performance against France? Is Rugby Union only about running backs? No is the answer. It has always been about mud, blood and guts.
Australia and New Zealand were beaten by teams who played a better game on the day. I suggest the bleating stops and these supposed lovers of the game look again at their teams' actual performance. Teams of champions are often beaten by champion teams. Jonny has not done it on his own, there are 21 other players who have played their hearts out. Stop insulting them, you wimps!

  • 48.
  • At 01:21 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Craig wrote:

If Jonny puts over all his kicks, England will win - simple.

U seem to forget that if SA score tries and get a 10-15 point lead it writes out any goal kicking game. If I recall correctly Eng never seemed like scoring many tries throughout the world cup and therefore if put in the situation where 3 points is not enough they could find themselves fumbling around mid field as often seen before. Not saying that it will happen, just if put on the back foot a team needs to have more than a good goal kicking fly half. Think there might be a danger of over reliance on one player who will OBVIOUSLY be targeted throughout the 80 mins. Perhaps the forwards and centres will play a larger role than many are willing to accept. Surely English rugby does not begin and end with JW.

  • 49.
  • At 01:24 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • chris b wrote:

Its going to be tight on saturday, -either that or its going to be easy for SA but I doubt that. SA are going to be very nervous.

The best thing I would say about SA is that at least they have shown respect to all of their opponents, unlike some other teams we could all mention, and that might be the best reason for expecting them to work out how to play the English.

All the inevitable talk of arrogance drives me crazy. England showed enough humility to realise how they were playing was wrong for them and have changed it around. Contrast with Ireland.....

As for the other celtic nations Scotland probably did the best and it was probably because they were the most pragmatic. As for Wales as usual they talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk. If Wales finally got over their natural tendencies towards backstabbing in union politics and bullsh*ting, and realised that at the moment they are no where near as good as they sometimes seem to think they are, they could build on performances like that against England in the 6N and eventually become the rugby power they should be.

  • 50.
  • At 01:25 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • James wrote:

Hi, in common with expats around the world, I'll be watching the game on foreign shores. Any tips for watching the game in New York?

Been told the Irish bars around downtown are best - but which one is THE one?

Hope your good selves can help!

  • 51.
  • At 01:32 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • william byrne wrote:

Fantastic, unbelievable, magical who would have believed it after four miserable years in the 6 nations! What Brian & co have done in the last four games since the South African debacle is little short of fantasy, surly the Dunkirk Spirit shining through. And just to throw a little statistic into the myre, when England won the world cup in 2003 the boys had to beat Australia, France and yes you guessed it South Africa!

Swing Low Sweet Chariot...

A Pom in Melbourne.

  • 52.
  • At 01:35 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Alex Barker wrote:

Backing England at 33/1 is the best piece of business iv ever done! 330 quid riding on next saturday! now thats nail biting (but fun)!! :)

Come on lads....

  • 53.
  • At 01:41 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • loughrey wrote:

This rubbish about Englands game being boring if the result is good who cares about the england play it, winners are remembered not show boaters.

also robinson to replace lewsey and flood to repalce robinson

  • 54.
  • At 01:52 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • darren wrote:

Jim (post #2) says dear Jonny is worth 37 points.

How does he explain england only scoring 26 points in total in the last two games then?

  • 55.
  • At 01:59 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • martin sherlock wrote:

we few, we happy happy few, we band of brothers.
four years ago the lads gave me one of my best days living in oz
win or lose i am so proud of them.
GO ENGLAND

  • 56.
  • At 02:21 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • TimmyF wrote:

I agree with the sentiments of my fellow England fans that scoring many tries in a knockout tournament does not matter, the bottom line is winning.

That said we should not let the past few weeks of heroic performance delude us into thinking there aren't still some major problems with the English game. What's happened in a nutshell is that this group of players, and more specifically the forwards, have played with a pride and committment I've seldom seen from a sporting side. We've played to our strengths and revealed that we possess far more talent in these areas than we previously realised..... In my eyes this is in scrumming, rucking, aggressive defense, tactical kicking and game management.... What this boils down to is an incredibly solid and difficult team to play against. This begs the question, why has this collective ability been hidden for so long?!

As a passionate rugby fan the past two weeks have left me feeling elated. But also frustrated as it has demostrated the amount of latent talent that we have been wasting in English rugby. I'm also sure you would all agree that we would be a far more threatening side (that didn't just squeak home in tight games) if we added a dynamic, skillful and dangerous backline to our arsenal which consistently got its hands on quick ball.

Its undeniable that there are still a multitude of problem with the English game like overall season structure, coaching, adequate player rest, player time with England set-up etc.... lets not not let an amazing and miraculous Greece-like run in this tournament disguise the fact that we've won less than 50% of our games in the past 3 years.

  • 57.
  • At 02:30 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • John wrote:

For once i'm proud to be English...COME ON ENGLAND!!!

  • 58.
  • At 02:57 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • SAFan wrote:

Boys to be fair England did up their game and yes the game against France was ugly. England seemed to suffocate the French so that they coulnt breath anymore. They played dead rugby and also threw away the spirit of the game by playing football instead of rugby. Maybe David Beckham should join?

I have no doubt in my mind that South Africa will come out tops against the one man show of Johnny Wilkinson and will be the victors by the time I go to sleep in the wee hours of sunday morning after a wild night of celebrations in honour of the best rugby team in the World. My darlings South Africa!! Go Bokke!!!!!

  • 59.
  • At 03:01 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Andrew Mac wrote:

Apart from Tait, Sackey,Sheridan and Easter, the England team comprises of (1)players not good enough to play in the 1st XV in 2003- Catt, Gomarsall, Moody, Corry, Shaw, Regan (2)Players at ,or already past, their peak in 2003 - Vickery, Wilkinson, Robinson,Lewsey, Kay. It adds up to a group with nothing to lose and the development of a classic underdog 'kitchen sink' mentality. The team reminds me of Cloughie's Notts Forest in '78-'82.A rare oddball chemistry that really shouldn't have worked. The South Africans had better have the right mentality at the final because it is going to hurt bad. The England boys are past pain - nothing scares them any more.

  • 60.
  • At 03:06 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Daniel P wrote:

Firstly congratulations to England and South Africa for reaching the Finals. This has been a great tournament although now the usual paparazzi talk is of 'boring' and 'ugly' rugby...who cares if we are winning!? Before the England v Australia game, David Campese gave his usual England play boring rugby etc etc, well now David he who has the last laugh! just thought he'd have learnt to keep his mouth closed after 2003! The french full of expectation again fell to the side after a pheonomenal display by our english oaks. Let us once again rejoice in winning the Webb Ellis Trophy and put those names down in history for all you non-believers!

SWING LOW SWEET CHARIOT COMING FORTH TO CARRY THE TROPHY HOME!

  • 61.
  • At 03:57 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • jonk wrote:

another englishman currently in oz and loving it. always proud to be english no matter how we get on but the last two performances have been immense. one last push and who knows? fair play to the yarpies, they've looked the best team, but hopefully the boks are like the proteas and will soon start coughing.

  • 62.
  • At 04:02 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Ken Huggins wrote:

So hear we go. The final most professional rugby commentators and many supporters thought we would never be a part of; and I suppose who could blame them. Think back, not just 4 weeks ago but back over the last 4 years. It鈥檚 been a sorry tale! Something changed fundamentally after that SA game. It鈥檚 not just the way we have played since that defeat but, more importantly the mind set of the England team and camp. Someone or something has removed the fluff of disbelief form between their ears and replaced it with cold impenetrable steel. Each and every man looked and played on Saturday against France with complete conviction. Nothing was going to break the bond or ring of steel that surround the England camp. They will win on Saturday and win well, I have no doubt. To be the best in your chosen sport requires many qualities. Skill, strength, courage etc etc but above all it requires total belief. To get one sports person thinking that on one given day is one thing but to get a squad is remarkable and my praise go not only to them but to the person or persons who fostered that new found belief.

  • 63.
  • At 04:02 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Tony wrote:

England deserve to make history, they have proven us all wrong on several ocasions over the past 4 years, I would really like to see Phil Vickery and co pick the web ellis trophy up again and hold it onto it for another 4 year! COME ON ENGLAND DO US ALL PROUD!!!

  • 64.
  • At 04:10 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Tony wrote:

England deserve to make history, they have proven us all wrong on several ocasions over the past 4 years, I would really like to see Phil Vickery and co pick the web ellis trophy up again and hold it onto it for another 4 year! COME ON ENGLAND DO US ALL PROUD!!!

  • 65.
  • At 04:12 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • paul dobson wrote:

Take them on .....face to face, tackle by tackle....show them we will not be beaten. Look them in the eye, let them feel it.....we will NOT be beaten

  • 66.
  • At 04:17 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Dante wrote:

It's a 50/50 final. Perhaps SA are the favourites but bear in mind although Argentina and Fiji are gutsy teams who should be proud of the way they have played in these finals, their ability falls slightly short of that of Australia and France. This is not a critism in any way but due to the national structure in these countries they are still emerging rugby nations. With that in mind however, 3 SA tries last night came about from sloppy Argentinian play. If it wasn't for that the scoreline would be alot closer. Basically, SA have not yet been tested in this World Cup. We do lack the cutting edge in the backs but if the forwards stick to their game and we suppress their attack and limit the space for JP and Hanana then I have to favour the English. Not only that but we want payback and maybe this encounter was already scripted after the 36-0 drubbing. Even so, I'm sure I shall not require nail clippers for a while!

Whatever the result, Rugby wins. Its been a great World Cup.

  • 67.
  • At 04:23 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Nick wrote:

Unfortunately, SA have looked like a tournament winning side from the start of the competition, and one a lot better than the French and Australians.

Let's not get carried away thinking that England will still have it there own way. SA will be riding high after their demolition of England in the group stages, and won't be put off by the fact that England have beaten two top class sides that made a lot of mistakes on the way to the final.

I think SA deserve it for just sheer sustained quality, but i hope England do it.

  • 68.
  • At 04:28 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Stevie D wrote:

A final to be decided by errors. Neither team will chance expansive rugby unfortunately.
I predict the following:
James, Steyn (so overrated) and Monty all to fluff three drop goal attempts each from inside their own 22, followed by a successful dink over from the back of a ruck by Matfield.
One of the English second rows - Ben Shaw or Simon Kay, it wont matter - to knock on with the line beckoning.
The Hamburgler sinbinned after his eight head-high tackle and Wilco to kick the penalty, in off the post.
Habana runs in interception, but drops ball as he swan dives over the line-despite being 18cm away the ref asks for video confirmation, and the try is then awarded by Chris White & Tony Spreadbury, after 17 minutes deliberation.
Moody sinbinned for his ninth push on player without the ball at kick off.
Tait continues to run around aimlessly, without a single decent break, until, blinded by his mop of unruly blond locks, he knocks on under a high ball leaving Os du Rant to win the game with a drop goal (the 35th attempt during the game) from the resulting scrum. It'll never happen eh?
Maybe not. As a Scot born in England (its complicated), I do hope England can win. Either way Im supporting Fiji next time.

  • 69.
  • At 04:57 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • steve wrote:

I like Ian's comment about the probability of NZ losing being 1 in 10. As it stands, to me it looks more like 4 in 6.

The reality of the KNOCK-OUT stages of the RWC is that you are never more than 80 mins away from going OUT. With 40 mins on the clock NZ did not smell that, they just seemed to assume they would prevail.

Dan Carter is an amazing player, truly world class, but cross field kicks on your own 22 might send the commentators into raptures, it might be consider progressive, but it won't win you the RWC. A drop goal from 40 yards will. Why didn't they try one, is it beneath them to win with a drop goal. And if it's so easy and anybody can do it to win matches, why don't they try. It would have saved Australia as well.

Again - in the knock-out stages you do what you have to do to win. Running rugby for it's own ends is no use whatsoever.

If you want to be considered a truly great team, then you have to be able to beat a home team in it's own back yard, when it is doing everything in it power to prevent you from doing just that. This does not mean that the current England team is great, it is not, merely that they have achieved a great thing.

NZ is a truly gifted team with great players in it, but history shows a great team is more than that.

  • 70.
  • At 05:53 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Billy O wrote:

I've got to hand it to the Whingers -they've got all the answers.

England beat Australia.
The response? "Errmmm...but it was boring".
England beat France and are in the Final.
The response? "Errmmm.......but NZ are still the No 1 team in the world".
(Pity no-one told France that).

So Whingers - here's the deal.

If we win on Saturday we'll enjoy another 4 years as World Champs, and you can enjoy another 4-year whinge thinking of 1001 more reasons why it doesn't really count.

Meanwhile, should South Africa win, we'll simply applaud them as the better team.

Think about it and take a look at yourselves.

  • 71.
  • At 05:53 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Chris A wrote:

The new rankings are out and it looks like a battle between the 2nd and 3rd ranked teams in the world for the chance of going top in the rankings as well. (Last weeks position in brackets)
1(1) NEW ZEALAND 89.63
2(3) SOUTH AFRICA 89.32
3(6) ENGLAND 87.18
4(2) FRANCE 84.83
Food for thought.....

  • 72.
  • At 06:49 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Steve W wrote:

Ian (#40)

Yes, SA are not to be under-rated and on paper should make mince meat of England. But you know what? They won't! England will frustrate and out-think the 'boks just like they did to the Aussies and the French. Statistics and form books count for nothing in a final (a real final as well).


"From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."


Well, apart from the St Crispin's day a very suitable verse!! (Henry V Act 4 Scene 3)

  • 73.
  • At 07:36 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Cock of the North wrote:

Will Farrel make the squad for Saturday Surely Flood and Taits world cup should be over??

  • 74.
  • At 10:15 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • patriot_conan wrote:

England play boring rugby? I, along with my brothers and father, all born and raised in the USA, are just sinking our teeth into rugby for the first time and we all agree that England play the most inspiring and exciting rugby.

Look, it's great to see a try and watching Habana run is a thing of beauty, but rugby is a man's game of power and strength and courage and blood and tears, and as for teams like NZ, if you can't win in the trenches then it's your fault if you can't let your backs have a run.

I love watching England play, and I would be beside myself if USA could imitate your lads. Tough rugby and loads of heart, England have made a rugby fan of me.

Come on England!!!

  • 75.
  • At 10:27 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Finbar wrote:

Little pattern to worry us English fans - the new world champs are ALWAYS the first team to beat the old world champs in the competition. 91 - Aus beat NZ in semi, 95 - SA beat Aus in opener, 99 - Aus beat SA in semi, 03 - Eng beat Aus in final, 07 - SA beat Eng in pool games. Gulp.

  • 76.
  • At 11:14 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • steve wrote:

Steve W #72

While I agree we have a fair amount going for us I am worried that Ian #40 is right that people are starting to sound too cocky. Beginning to sound rather too much like the Kiwis and Aussies were sounding earlier. Also while the team has preformed magnificently, part of it was that after the S Africa game no one outside England expected us to be do well. Having knocked over both Australia [albeit a pretty weak wombat team] and France the Boks will be very foolish to not take us seriously. I hope they will make that error but I don't expect it.

Don't get me wrong. The team has shown great spirit and skill and I hope they can do it but it will be a bloody tough match to win. SA might just blow up if things go right for us but I think its going to be a hell of a struggle.

I agree very much with Billy O #70. Ideally we will win and retain the title. If we don't lets hope we can emulate France [never thought I would say that. :) ] and if we lose do it with dignity.

Steve

  • 77.
  • At 11:53 PM on 15 Oct 2007,
  • Paul wrote:

A couple of comments first:

Rugby after this and all world cups = winner.

Gentlemanly behaviour, true sportmanship (except wingers) = rugby

Wags...none....= Rugby

As an avid English supporter, my head is still spinning, but one thing that makes me so proud, the way the english have comported themselves. Not just the players, but hte whole barmy army of white in france. Well done boys, girls, mums, dads, and uncle tom cobbly. With a rep that some english fans give us, it is so refreshing to see true sports behaviour, humble in victory, aprechative in defeat.

I am PROUD to be english. (just a shame the politicians can't take a lesson.)

  • 78.
  • At 12:51 AM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • wrote:

South Africa are a better team, but this is a one off game, which England can win.

They will have to play even better than they have done against Australia and France though.

If SA win then they will deserve it, if England win it will be the most sensational and historic sporting event that I will have witnessed in my lifetime!!

cmmmmmmon england

  • 79.
  • At 04:57 AM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • Lalanthi Fernandez wrote:

LET ME TELL YOU THAT I AM A SUPPORTER OF THE ENGLISH TEAM. I LOVE THEM. I LOVE RUGBY. OUR FAMILY LOVES RUGBY. OUR SON IS PLAYING FOR HIS SCHOOL. HE IS JUST 12 YEARS AND PLAYING FOR UNDER 16.
WE WERE AWAKE TILL MIDNIGHT TO WATCH THE ENGLISH WIN. OH BOY IT WAS LOVELY. FOR ME ENGLAND WINNING WAS A DREAM. OH IT WAS LOVELY TO WATCH JONNY W. KICKING. GREAT ENGLISH TEAM.

  • 80.
  • At 09:13 AM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • Dean wrote:

I am in a compound in Iraq with a high number of South African blokes, the mood has changed, now the focus is on, will this small contigent of British blokes who want to see their Country be triumphant....the South Africans know we have it in the basement to win....come on Saturday

  • 81.
  • At 10:20 AM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • tom carslake wrote:

I BELIEVE!!!

  • 82.
  • At 10:35 AM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • BlueinEngland wrote:

A few quick points:

1) Noone has mentioned Gomarsall's key role in turning England around, particularly disrupting the 8, 9, 10 combinations (although he needs more height and less distance on his box kicks than he did against France).

2) Several England players have been in a World Cup Final before - that is massive in its implications. Noone doubts that SA are a more gifted team on their day, but how will they respond to the cauldron of a RWC Final? One or two mistakes from key players - pressure on for SA.

3) JW is great, but 'the greatest ever'?? He brings a lot of confidence to England without even playing that well. (Chris Paterson is clearly the best kicker - up to 45m - in world rugby right now)

4) Good luck to England from a Scot. You'll need it to win, but I've a sneaky feeling you'll get it and deserve it.

  • 83.
  • At 11:37 AM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • Malcolm wrote:

darren (post 54) asked how Jim (post 2) could talk about Jonny being worth 37 points when England only scored 26 points in the last two games.

Darren is obviously forgetting about the defensive side of the game. Presumably, without Jonny we would have conceded a total of 48 points more than we did?

Anyway, my head says South Africa to shade it, but my heart says England. I think I'll tell my head to take a hike!

  • 84.
  • At 12:15 PM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • LittleLordProtector wrote:

Have to say the atmosphere in the stadium was claustrophobic, the England team sprit was most evident and their pride and honesty filled me with admiration.

Moreover England showed how to handle the big occasion like no other team to date drawing on their experience not to force proceedings. As an Englishman living in Dublin it鈥檚 a little disappointing to gauge the local reaction especially since the French have been so magnanimous in defeat but it鈥檚 particularly easy not to rise to the bait when we sit in a second successive final and their arguments are largely based on a little envy combined with what if scenarios.

Would love to her Saturdays fans sing 鈥淭he Gambler鈥 to acknowledge this group of players and let them know just how proud they have made us feel.

  • 85.
  • At 12:36 PM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • Ian wrote:

@73, I don't think Will Farrel should play at all. I applaud his comic genius and loved him in Anchorman but what does he know about rugby?

  • 86.
  • At 01:18 PM on 16 Oct 2007,
  • James Mackinder wrote:

England's transformation has been primarily due to a previously lacklustre pack mutating overnight into a starving hungry pack of killer wolves. But the Boks are as tough as it comes up front and I doubt that we'll be able to bully them as we did against Australia and France in the 2nd half. I reckon both teams will win approx 50% of the ball on Saturday. But who will make the best use of the ball? Eng still seem unable to carve teams up in the backs and score tries, apart from the odd, individual piece of brilliance usually from Robinson or Sackey. I think it would be a massive bonus for Eng if Hipkiss starts. SA have backs who can score tries from anywhere. Habana is terrifying to behold - (as an Eng supporter). He is a sensational player going forward and if SA find space and get the ball to him, he could beat Eng on his own. I would love to see Eng chuck the ball around and score magical tries from every corner of the park - but we'll need to give Brian Ashton another year to develop the backs. In this match Eng can only win one way, ie throttle the Boks up front, frustrate them, tackle them to death, pin them inside their own half with an accurate kicking game, make very few mistakes and JW kicks his penalties. Somehow this Eng team, with next to no preparation, (thanks to the INFURIATING + RIDICULOUS decision to keep Andy Robinson on for at least 6 months too long), full of grandads and average players will win by 3 points in a titanic bruiser. Why? Because 1. They cannot even believe that they are in the World Cup Final. This is a dream come true for them. An underdogs shot at the title. Couldn't be a better situation for them and they know it. 2. Over the past 4 years they have sunk so low, been so humiliated and embarrassed, faced so much adversity and been so deeply hurt that as a team they NOW feel as though they are rising as one from the ashes. All the pain of the last 4 years will come out in this one match, they will die on the pitch for their brothers and this belief will PROBABLY JUST pull them through by the odd point or two. It's their mentality + belief on the day that will win it for them, not their slightly above-average ability.

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