Is the Scottish exodus a worry?
- 23 Feb 07, 01:18 PM
Glasgow - The Scottish papers today had an amazing story. .
One of our country鈥檚 most potent attacking weapons and a man with the best rugby years ahead of him was actually going to play across the Irish Sea.
What do you think about this?
There were rumours flying around that , the papers had already carried stories of two more Edinburgh players leaving, as well as .
There are even rumours of bigger names to come, and this must be disruptive to Scotland鈥檚 preparations.
What must Frank Hadden be thinking? What does he make of the fact that it appears that more of his established internationalists will be further from his reach, working in England, Ireland, Wales and rumour has it, France?
It is disturbing, fundamentally, on a couple of levels.
Clubs are powerful beasts and they will feel they have primacy of contract. The last thing a club owner thinks of is how fit his players are for internationals.
Well, he has a league to win. Then there are the sheer logistics of trying to keep tabs on players in different countries.
On the plus side, someone else is paying the bill.
Is this a peculiarly Scottish problem? More especially, as this is all happening within a week of the SRU , and the English clubs played hard ball .
I really worry about this, what do you think?
Wales 27-18 England
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Players playing oversees seems to be working for Italy. They are improving year after year. It also works in football... France won the world cup in 98 when the vast majority of their squad played oversees.
Also with the SRU reportedly in debts of 拢20M+ and dwindleing scottish crowds players like Dewey may develop best playing in Ireland.
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It has a few good points!!It can really help the players!!experience is vital in some cases. It also adds more variety to the scottish team if we have players playing in different countrys and leagues!! e.g. jason White at Sale!!I think it makes Haddens job a lot tougher though!
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I can understand professional union players moving to other clubs in the current climate of uncertainty over the long term future of the SRU funded Scottish pro teams. I think it will be an increasing feature of pro rugby that the best players will move to the best paid and most secure employment as would be the case in any other form of employment or professional sport.
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It is the same problem with the SRU. They don't have a clue as to how to run the professional game. Firstly the cut off the life blood of the clubs, imposing ridiculous ticket restrictions for the internationals (you must buy italy tickets to get any allocation for Ireland or Wales) and then they cut the budget to the clubs too. The money is not coming in and they can't pay the wages. The players are only thinking about their best interests and no one can blame them. I am sure they have had a chat with Hadden about the move too. Exposing scottish players like Dewey to a higher standard week in week out is probably better for Scotland in the long run, but the whole issue is fundementally whether it is time that there was a radical overhaul of the whole SRU, and appoint a proper management structure to the organisation.
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I think going to a club like Ulster where the team are gelling is a great move for Rob Dewey and Simon Danielli. Simon has started well this season and Rob Dewey is becoming a force in scottish rugby and had a blinding game against the Welsh. It's just the ticket that Ulster need to replace Maggsy (off to Bristol) in the centre, and to add to the already formidable back line that Ulster have in Trimble, Bart, Steinmetz and Bowe. Ulster are boxing clever, they have great performances in sight in the Magner's League to help secure places in the HC. Being at Ulster will further develop these players and Frank Hadden will be a happy man to have such quality to choose from, partly down to their time at Ravenhill. We just need to start winning away. Welcome fellas.
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As an Edinburgh supporter I think that Dewey leaving for Ulster is a massive loss, not to mention the reported departure of Strokosch and Dickinson to Gloucester. Our team cannot suffer the loss of such consistently good performers and expect to compete in the Magners and especially the Heiniken League at the highest level. We need to improve our pool of players not reduce it and unless we reverse this trend we will have poor campaign next season.
I can understand Danielli leaving the Borders to go to Ulster as they have struggled in the Magners/Celtic League from day one and can't seem to make an impact. How long until Cusiter departs for 'foreign soil' I wonder? Ross Ford leaving for Sale also is understandable from an ambition point of view.
However at a national level this may benefit Scotland in the long run - Jason White for example left Glasgow for Sale and has developed into a genuine world class performer. To a lesser extent the same could be said of Sean Lamont and you can see the improvements in Rory Lawson since going to Gloucester. Ulster, Sale and Gloucester are all playing at a higher level than any of the Scottish pro teams (recent results have demonstrated this)and I think that our players will only get better by training and playing with these teams.
Domestically it is not such a pretty picture and from an Edinburgh point of view you have to wonder about the future of Patterson, Blair, Hogg, Taylor et al.
C'mon Scotland tomorrow!
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It is a worry that more Scottish players might be stopped from attending Scottish training sessions.
But on the flipside (and being devils advocate), it could well do some of our players some good playing in better teams (improving their skills and winning mentality).
After all the Scottish pro teams have been on the go a few years now and they dont do very well in the club competitions, which surely only hinders a players development.
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If people dont want this to happen then they should get off their butss and go and support the pro teams or we will become a feeder nation for the rest of Europe.
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Does anyone know if Ulster will release these guys for international training etc or will they do the same as the english clubs did last week?
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glad to see dewey come to ulster. as i am a huge ulster fan. i think that the main reason he has moved is because we are one of the form side in the league.and have huge home support.Athome we have been he best supported club for 3 years now.its a shame for edinburgh to lose him through.
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glad to see dewey come to ulster. as i am a huge ulster fan. i think that the main reason he has moved is because we are one of the form side in the league.and have huge home support.Athome we have been he best supported club for 3 years now.its a shame for edinburgh to lose him through.
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I think that it is definitely something to be worried about. If the Scottish pro teams lose a sunstantial number of their best players then they will be unable to compete in the Celtic League next season and will also be unable to justify two places in the Heineken Cup each year. This cannot be good for attempts to grow the sport in this country.
Further to this is the club v country argument that has been much talked about of late. Why would Irish, English or Welsh clubs feel the need to rest/release Scottish players for squad sessions when asked to do so? Half of the English clubs don't want to let the England players rest/attend squad sessions never mind the 'foreigners'!
Having a sustantial number of your top players spread across several countries also means that you are going to struggle to have the sort of consistency and understanding in the national team that comes from playing together week in and week out. It is no coincidence that the Irish are playing so well when the half backs play together for Munster all the time and the centre pairing play for Leinster week in, week out. If your 9, 10, 12 and 13 are all playing for different clubs and have less national squad sessions to get used to playing with one another then there is bound to be an adverse effect on the national team's performance. The same is true of the forwards in terms of hookers and their jumpers, back row players knowing one another, the front row being able to perform well as a unit.
I don't blame the players for their actions - they are all aware that they are playing a hard game where your career can be ended in an instant. They need to be looking at getting what they can out of the game financially in the short time that they are in it. Add to this the set ups that some of the clubs they are going to have, and you can see why they are keen to move, not to mention the opportunity to improve themselves as players. Danielli's a quality player but has been in the wrong team to show his skills, a move to Ulster may be just what he needs to showcase his ability and try and get himself back into the frame for the national squad; something that could help him earn the most that he can out of the last five to ten years he has in the game.
If the SRU want the pro teams to succeed then they need to be able to offer big enough incentives to the players for the majority of them to want to stay here. With the current set up I don't see that happening.
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there are pluses and minuses but I tend to think that there is only ever going to be one top class scottish team and that is Scotland itself. There is maybe a model where young up & coming players nurture their talent in a scottish club scene. The better players inevitably move to England, Wales, France & seemingly Ireland they are exposed to the rigours of games there and come back together for Scottish games. If the pro- sides were well supported I might say different but I think that this may be a better model for Scotland than seeing our pro sides as eternal bridesmaids at the celtic & European level. several of our players have benefitted from doing this recently.
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I think you are right to worried John. The Scottish teams have fallen way behind the Irish and Welsh teams in the Celtic League and this is only going to speed things up. It sounds like the top players have lost faith in the professional setup in Scotland.
The SRU should take better care of its players to keep them playing at home. Otherwise it could be the death of professional club/provincial rugby in Scotland.
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Player exodus is necessary for the professional development of our players, as on this front, the SRU are failing.
These players need to go abroad and hopefully become successful enough professionally to inspire younger generations of players.
However, these inspired younger players need an infrastructure to develop them. This means establishing a strong centralized youth academy from which all Scottish clubs can draw.
This acadamey needs to develop skills and competitiveness in a rich playing environment.
Personally, I think that the SRU should do everything they can for London Scottish, get them professional, get them back up the league and place our academy there. We then allow you players to "cut their teeth" professionally by using the Scottish based clubs as feeders and reserves for our larger English based team.
Then you will have a competitive team based in England made up of players from all regions - a focal point for all Scottish fans to support - tying in the players they can see locally to players they can see in a top league.
Certainly better than the shrugging of shoulders as players leave, or demanding that players be loyal to an infrastructure that is failing them.
Good players will leave, but let us take a lesson from it and use it to the advantage of Scottish Rugby.
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Is a feature of the professional era... go talk to Argentina. Wales have the same issue by the way.
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I'd rather they left and played for better teams to develop their skills and therefore make them better international players.
Not seeing a problem here - the Scottish pro rugby product is poor and also poorly supported. If they can make more money elsewhere and improve at the same time then I'm all for it.
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great idea number 15, being london based I'd love to support a Scottish side down here.
But as it currently stands an exodus of players is a bad idea, being a less talented set of individuals tends not to cause the Scots the most problems as the last few home fixtures in the six nations have proved. It's hardly the SRU's problem though is it? Are tickets to see Edinburgh/the Borders more expensive than seeing Ulster? I doubt it
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No, people have been leaving Scotland for years.
And then, having left, telling everybody within earshot what a brilliant place it is!
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The news of Dewey's departure being announced a day before a six nations game is a PR disaster for Scotland. Dewey is pure class, one of the best young players we have produced recently, and yet he has left without the SRU (or the new Edinburgh owners) seemingly putting up any kind of fight to keep him.
Paterson is also poised to head to England next season and I have heard reports that Blair, Hogg and Cusiter could follow suit. In this light, the fact the SRU is considering setting up a team in London is incredible. What we need is a strong domestic product, with the pro teams allowed freedom from Murrayfield. What we're actually getting is a mass exodus, a decrease of the already pathetic crowd numbers for the pro sides, and the prospect of the union sending three crap teams into the Magners League.
Whether or not we beat Italy, it is helluva depressing.
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Nick Faulds - how do you know the Edinburgh owners didn't put up any kind of fight? It could well be they simply couldn't compete with the amount of money Ulster were offering and unless the Scottish rugby public get off their backsides and start supporting the pro teams, this will continue to be the case. It is time for Scottish rugby supporters to decide whether they want a professional game in Scotland. They may well have justified grievances against the SRU but by refusing to get behind the pro teams they are possibly going to end up punishing promising young Scottish players who will find it increasingly difficult to develop their game without a Scottish-based professional set-up to support them. If that is what people want then carry on moaning. If not, start supporting.
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In one way it's great to see Dewey and Danielli coming to Ulster but on the other hand we need Scottish teams for the Celtic league to work. If the Scottish pro teams disappear up the Khyber then who are Ulster going to play? An Irish-Welsh league with 8 teams? Sounds dull to me.
拢10 buys a ticket for Ravenhill.
What is it for an Edinburgh match?
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Nick, no 20. Are you not the same man who said that he wouldn't be attending the Italy game because you dont like the way the SRU have handled professional rugby? Dont you see the connection between not attending games and clubs not being able to hold onto promising talent?
Also, looks Taylor may go to Stade Francais, and Ross Rennie, another great young talent heading for Ulster.
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Face facts
Rugby is a pro game
Best players will often follow the money
Scotlands pro teams do not generate enough money
Ergo some players will leave
Is this a bad thing for our international team? Not necessarily. Irish rugby - mon ireland tomorrow - is not the only model. Think france, norway, chezck republic and yes ireland in football.
We are a country with a small population and a smaller relative player base than any other 6 nations country. The current scots team is punching well above its weight and we should give them credit for that. Mon SCOTLAND
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Guy 19
We are discussing pro players movements and the perceived threat/benefit to the national team.What relevence does your comment have to this rugby thread?
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and now Taylor too it seems!
It may not be essential to have all your international players playing within your own country, surely it is preferable to have the core of them playing there? And with the year-on-year trickle of players away from Scotland, and some of our best players at that, it doesn't seem that that'll be the case for much longer.
From memory, that list includes:
04: White
05: Hines, S Lamont
06: R Lawson, N Walker, S MacLeod
07: Strokosch, Dewey, Danielli, Taylor
08: Paterson?
If using the Italian example, then yes some of there players have improved greatly through opportunities in other leagues, but the handicaps of such foreign-league dependency are also self-evident. And in any case, shouldn't a country with the rugby tradition of Scotland be expecting more?
Unfortunately, stemming this flow would require considerable investment in the pro-teams which obviously the SRU can't provide and cannot gain without greater public support, which itself can't gained without success, which requires investment... So, unless the SRU can dig up a couple of willing benefactors with deeper pockets and greater rugby ambition than the Edinburgh owners appear to have, then I fear that in the short to medium term at least, we just have to get used to the Scottish team's being used as feeder clubs by our more illustrious neighbours.
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Bibo 22
15 quid at embra and no discount for students. Also, 10,000 @ Ravenhill = craic; same no. at Murrayfield = cr*p. Go figure?
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And now I read that Simon Taylor might be leaving, and that David Callam and a few others are contemplating their futures too.
I find this very worrying.
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This is only worrying if the SRU don't act on the pro teams. The initial position was to have three pro teams with Scottish qualfied members in the main. This however has spread the resource far too thinly. Let the players choose where they wish to play but then we must reduce our pro teams. I also think we must balance the talent. Make sure that our best players are spread and that one international is not keeping another out of the side. Finally lets import some talent, real crowd pullers or workhorses. Crowds will watch winning teams, they will only follow their heart for so long!
In summary lets not waste energy worrying about the exodus plan for the future of what remains.
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Its a double edged sword. The experience and respect that Jason White has built up in the guinness Premiership makes him an even more formidable player. No doubt, Nathan Hines playing in the french league has kept him at the top of his game. The Celtic League is a very good league but the fact is, Scotland do not have the set up to accommoadate the quality of their players. Scotland are very lucky to have such good players when in every sense there is not enough ground roots support for rugby in scotland.
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Its a shame but the uncertainity and mismanagement of our beloved governing body is acting as a deterent to new and current players.
When the boy Blair left Scotland they might have stopped him.
When Gordon Ross left Scotland they might have stopped him.
When Jason White left Scotland they might have stopped him.
Now we have another young talent about to leave and, I'm sure the SRU appreciate this too, there is nothing worth staying for.
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The isue of playing outside Scotland is a red herring. After today's result one has to question the entire strategy behind Scottish Rugby. Both the organisation and team lack ideas. It is a sport in decline due to the anodyne control of a number of 'out of touch' executives and a failure to excite young players in Scottish schools.
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Let me see. Would I stay & play in Scotland when I would probably earn far more money playing in England, Ireland or France?? Rugby players have a limited career span & have to put themselves first. The SRU are in enough debt & releasing big players would lighten the load. However, I do understand that not having the players local could be detrimental to the international squad. It's up to the players anyway.
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For centuries, people have been leaving Scotland for higher salaries abroad, or simply better professional experience. Professional rugby players are really no different: these guys are going for more money, or the experience of playing week in week out in front of big crowds or tougher opponents. Good luck to them. The really surprising thing to me is that in the amateur days, this was recognised by having an 'Anglo Scots' team to draw on the talent in England ... it only seems to have dawned on the SRU in the past couple of weeks that it would be a good idea to resurrect this. Scotland needs to find a way of living with this trend, and better still thriving off it, rather than fighting something that is pretty well inevitable.
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The scottish leagues are an absolute disgrace, know wonder all the decent players are leaving(if you can call dewey decent). Scotland are by far the worst team in the six nations. The only scottish players who would come near to getting in any other team is Lamont/white, and they have spent most of their time at english clubs.
The scottish coach is shocking. Their attack is limited, who ever said Chris Patterson is world class needs shooting. He isn't even quick(skinned by an italian back row. The fact is sctland rarely produce talented players annd hence will never make an impact in the big tournaments!!!
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If I was a sweaty (and thank the Lord I'm not Sir) I'd be on my toes a.s.a.p.
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In response to "Will Anyone Actually Agree", I have been a member of London Scottish for nearly 20 years and have experienced many highs and lows with them!
We would certainly welcome the backing of the SRU, especially as we climb up through the lower divisions. Unfortunately we have always felt a certain sense of dislike at being "exiles", both from the English teams and the SRU! If there is to be a Scottish team set up in the UK surely this would be the answer? And as for an Academy, this has been muted for years and would be a great idea in my opinion. It's simple, to improve you need to be playing with the best week in and week out, I can't see that this happens in Scotland.
If only the Scots in London (and the SRU) could get behind us like the Irish get behind their London based team!
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These guys have families to feed and bills to pay like the rest of us. I defy anyone to say they would turn down a payrise & better working conditions in their jobs'.
If the SRU are serious about improving the quality of professional rugby in Scotland they need to start showing it. In the meantime you can't blame the players for going elsewhere.
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That's Euan Murray and Rory Lamont away now as well to Northampton and Sale. And Chris Cusiter is apparently off to join Simon at Stade Francais. We had better accept that while this exodus will affect the Scottish pro teams in the short term, it will eventually produce better international players and save the SRU money. Heaven knows, they need any help going.
What it WON'T do is help our sides in the Magners League. Time, perhaps, for reality to intervene and for the Borders to be ditched, or the people in that area to be offered the chance to buy their team, free of SRU control. The same goes for Glasgow. There's no room for
sentiment in this business.
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Thats what's happened at Edinburgh though, they have been bought free from the SRU, and it hasn't stopped any of the players leaving. Its time the SRU pulled it's finger out and done something about it. For us to have a strong international team, we NEED strong pro teams in Scotland, and in my opinion we need more than two pro teams (Not just Edinburgh and Glasgow). Ditching the Borders is not the answer. We need a serious re-vamp of the whole system and we need it now. For the good of rugby in our country.
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im an english native and yeah ok, i can get the point why they want to leave scotland, but to join an english club?? like its is one of the worst leagues around. celtic league has to be the first option!!
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i think this will be benefitial for scottis rugby. the internationalists will be playing more and (what can be considered as) at a higher standard. this will lead to improvement. this also opens the door to the younger players in scotland to get on the pro-team circuit. although the exodus of scottish players is seen as alarming, i think in the long run, itl be good for scottish rugby as a whole.
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As a Scotland supporter, I am quite happy to see that some of the established players are going to leagues where it has been proven that players improve from their time their, Jason White and Rory Lawson in particular. I can perfectly understand Simon Taylor going to Stade Francais as well considering the size of crowds they get compared to the pro club crowds here. However, the SRU and the pro clubs have a problem. If their established players feel that they have to leave to improve their game, surely the paltry crowds at these games are only going to decline further due to the fewer international class players on the field. And I can just about guarantee that Edinburgh will not be in the position they are just now at this stage in the season next year with the losses of Dewey, Taylor, Strokosh and Dickinson. I know for a fact that some Edinburgh fans are becoming so disillusioned by the number of players leaving that they are seriously considering giving up their season tickets for next season. So the bottom line is that though it may be good for the national teams, it's only going to lead to the demise of the pro teams in terms not just of the league, but also perhaps in how many of them there are in the future. So who to blame? Blame the SRU, blame the players for being greedy, who knows? The bottom line for the players is that they are going to be playing a better standard of rugby, in front of bigger crowds and for more money, surely you can't blame them for that! (PS sorry for the rant)
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It is worrying.
Just a comparison with Ireland.
You'll tell me, Irish regions have a high standard back team.
It's not by chance that they are the best Celtic team, and maybe the best in Northern hemisphere.
The players ARE NOT burnt out.
The Irish Union looks very well after them.
I'm French, and even if France seems good in the Six Nations, the guys were so exhausted by too much games in the Autumn test.
I think it is very hard to build a powerful National Team without central contracted players, look at England just now.
The level in Internationals is so high now days, that even the Scottish players playing abroad with a high standard,the National team will struggle a wee bit.
Pro sides in Scotland struggle in The Celtic League, so with this exodus it will be very hard.
BUT Scottish Rugby needs pro sides to attract youngs/academy in the game.
I hope to see the proud Rugby Nation Scotland is, to stand up in the future.
All the best
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johndog 25
Probably very little. I must have been at a weak moment of irritation after trawling through the vast amount of Anglophobic drivel you get on these blogs.
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I feel that in the long term players moving outwith Scotland can strengthen our international team. As it stands we only have three professional teams, which generally means that we only have three players in each position playing regularly. If you then consider the forgein contingent, that add essential experience and skills to the clubs, our international options are further reduced.
These moves will weaken the clubs in the short term, but it will also open doors to young Scottish players. Rob Dewey will still develop as a player at Ulster and Edinburgh can now concentrate on finding a Scottish replacement.
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It is unfair to compare Scotland to the U.S., but the comparison does demonstrate that there can be a point beneath which the quality of domestic professional opportunities fall that it behooves the national side to have its players involved in foreign leagues. The more US Eagles we can have professionally employed in Europe, rather than playing Super League in the US, the better for our national efforts.
That a Tier I nation should look to the US for its template is not intended to insult, but the unfortunate truth is that Scotland's heart does not sufficiently lie with rugby to maintain a seperate professional option competitive with the alternatives. Unless the Home Nations adopt a format like the Super 14 wherein the leagues are combined under a structure assuring a baseline of available resources, the exodus, and slow death, of the Scottish rugby clubs will continue.
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What is the concern. The two fastest improving teams in World rugby are Argentina and Italy. How many of their players play in their native country.
Okay it will be embarassing seeing Scottish teams propping up the Magners League. Oops sorry we do already!
Look on this as an opportunity. Someone else wants to pick up the wage bill. This surely frees up resourses for development.
Guy 19 & 45 stop reading the blogs! please
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While the exodus of Scottish players may well benefit the National team, the Magners league will undoubtedly be worse off. I think that there is a good league in development, and it requires strong Scottish teams to gain the respect that it deserves.
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Robin
How reasonable. Your position seems to be; if you don't like bigotry then go away.
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Its sad to see Scottish Rugby falling of the pace. Its sad to see the all time low gates at most matches. Its sad to see a country with the rugby ability to win six nation championships struggle to come fifth. Its a way forward if many players leave Scotland and join the bigger teams in Europe. Its a way forward because they will gain valuable experiance, which they could share with the national side. Hopefully this will strenghten the national side, with a stronger national team the interest of the general public will return, this would have a positive effect on the club sides.
I dont think the magners league standard will be damaged in the long term. Scottish players would be best advised to join existing magners league teams as this will best display them in the shop window for the national side.
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Pros:-
Our top players will develop into better players if they move to more competitive leagues.
The exodus will create space for younger scottish talent to come in and improve their game in the Scottish pro sides.
Cons:-
What is to become of the competitivness of the our pro teams in Magners league not to mention HC??
A few months ago most of the Scotland team played for one of three teams, how is this going to effect Haddens training and the synergy of the squad?
Maybe Scotland just has to face facts, we have a MUCH smaller player base than the other 6N teams (including Italy!), can we really fund 3 pro teams? Why not let other pro teams pick up the bill?
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I cannot blame any of the players for wanting to - get more money and play at a higher standard.
Scottish rugby does not have the resources to run more than one competitive team - just look at Celtic and Heineken results over the years.
When the Scottish football team were ranked in the top ten in the world (late seventies) they were predominantly picked from the best teams in English first division.
We cannot follow the Irish and Welsh simply because we do not have the talent in sufficient numbers.
I'm surprised Simon Taylor didn't make the move years ago. Expect most of Scottish National players to follow suit over the next few months.
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It is imperative that a properly funded English based team is created as soon as possible. This will require private funding as well as central SRU funding. Investors are there I assure you!
Let us be broad minded and focus on the opportunities not the potential pitfalls. Did Scottish rugby not flourish when Sole, Burnell, Cronin, White, Wainwright, Morrison etc. were playing "Down South?" . Even Big Gav was at Scottish for a while.
I agree professional rugby is very different from the 1990 period but we can embrace expatriate Scots and integrate them in our national side.
Taking this one step further I am fairly certain that London Scottish has provided more International players than any other single club in the history of Scottish rugby.
Again I take the point that things have moved on but with the right capital, facilities and commitment it can be done ! We need a more diverse playing pool and I believe a southern franchise would attract quality players. I am as Scottish as the rest of you. What do others think?
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The SRU is a bankrupt organisation with debts totalling over 拢25M. I would love to know who is propping up this archaic set-up? Its sponsors and 6 Nations funing. No wonder the players are jumping ship cos the ship is sinking and fast.
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I attend all home intenational matches, but have attended very few Edinburgh games. I constantly listen to the cries of, "get up off of your backside and support your professional team!!!".
Why? What am I being offered to give up my Friday night or Saturday afternoon... Is the game being played in a theatre that compares with that of a Guinness Premiership or Irish League sides... i.e. does it have atmosphere... a facility that belongs to the club and makes you feel part of the movement, good or bad... If you want my money, make me feel that your worth spending it on.
That does not mean that I expect to see a winning team week in week out, that means I expect to feel part of something. The Scottish Professional game is soulless.. start by addressing that.. give the club players and the club fans an arena where they can start to build something better.
Players want to play and be watched playing... that and just reward for their efforts is why our guys want to move on. They can't be blamed for that surely?
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Scottish internationals leaving does not necessarily weaken the pro teams. Edinburgh regularly put out B teams because of Scotland duties and get humped by the Irish and Welsh. Despite this they finish top half of the table. Replace Murray with a Kiwi who plays all season, replace Taylor (how many games a season does he actually play, between injuries and Scotland?)with someone who will be there all season and there is a decline in quality for some games but that is more than made up for at others.
Ever been to an Edinburgh game and wondered who some of our backs are? Ever realised that they don't know one another either?
Scots playing abroad may reduce the amount they can train with the squad but lets not forget, the coaches told us before the Italy game it was the best weeks training they could remember. . .
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Something has to change with the SRU set up if Scotland are going to be able to field a consistent competitive team. Grass root rugby is struggling in Scotland and that does not bode well for the future. The SRU once considered (for how long or seriously I don't know) using London Scottish as the springboard for having a professional team competing in England but as usual politics took over / duffers in charge made the wrong decision and decided to set up in the Borders. The borders, as a region, has always had a a huge rugby following but the mistake was to assume people would stop supporting the club they grew up with and pledge loyalty to a new professional team. The same goes for Edinburgh. It would have been interesting to see the benefit to the national team had they put some support behind London Scottish a number of years ago when the opportunity was there. Scottish is a great club that is rebuilding itself after years of trouble and I am in no doubt that with right level of support from the SRU the club could get back up to Premiership levels and provide the platform for scottish professional rugby in England. However this will not happen for a number of years as Scottish are years away from the top league even if they win successive promotions (as they have been doing for the last few years). However this will not be the solution to the issues facing rugby in Scotland. The SRU needs to be overhauled and run properly. Whether people like it or not it needs to be run as a business to make money so that this can be pumped back into the sport at all levels. The professional teams have never got the public support they needed to make it really work - and until that happens professional rugby in Scotland will always struggle. Drastic times need drastic measures - papering over the cracks will not solve the issues.
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The answer to this one depends where your loyalties lie.
If its to your country, surely it is better that your quality young players are getting game time in a quality environment.
If its to your club, you need to turn up more - your club will only be able to afford to keep players if people pay to watch, that will improve the quality of the teams and the quality of the play. SRU however need to police the foreign imports.
The English league is starting to resemble an antipodean retirement home, preventing young talent from playing first team rugby.
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Jim 59: Loyalty to club or country are not mutually exclusive. Edinburgh are penalised for having so many internationals since they are missing so much of the time. I would prefer to watch a competitive team every game than one which is 10 current internationals, 5 past/future internationals one week and a completely different, much poorer team the next. If we can sign someone available for all the games who is 85% as good as Murray/Taylor/Dewey we get more rugby from them than we do from the established internationals.
Scots playing abroad does not necessarily harm the international team, it is scaremongering to suggest it does. As long as the players are playing at a high standard, in europe, it really doesn't matter where it is.
Rugby is a business, if the SRU or Edinburgh can't or won't match the money available elsewhere the players are quite entitled to play elsewhere.
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It works for Italy, Argentina and for a while the Welsh. Personally, I would like to see the London thing happen too, there is a large amount of Scots living there and they do not have such affinity with any particular club but more with a national identity. Of course it would need to contain Scottish born/qualified players to play in it too, if they were internationals, that would be a bonus.
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The SRU's first priority has to be getting rid of the debt, which we have to accept is not going to be a quick fix.
The latest accounts showed a loss of under 拢0.5m, however 拢1.5m was paid out in interest payments to service the debt. This is slightly encouraging given that it is the interest that is the cause of the deficit. There are obviously better things to do with 拢1.5m though, and the SRU has to do everything possible to reduce costs and increase income - hiring out Murrayfield, reducing pro teams and salaries short term - whatever it takes. There has surely to be a more concerted effort at getting some sort of Scottish Executive funding as well.
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I too am a long standing London Scottish fan and, although i think that the idea of a London based Scottish Magners league team is a good idea, i would certainly not support London Scottish being involved in the proposals. The club has made such good progress (unaided) from the bottom of the pile since we were sold out by Tiarks after having earned our survival in the premiership and the Sru did not lift a finger to help. Such a good spirit has arisen in the club since that we should be left alone to progress at our own rate acting as an SRU accademy. However, i believe that such a team would seem to be the logical way to allow talented Scottish players to play in front of bigger crowds while staying in close contact with the SRU. Even for London Scottish playing in the lowly London one League (about to gain promotion to national 3) we are pulling in crowds of over a thousand for the big games. There are also the welsh exiles just up the road who also pull in big crowds and a large Irish rugby population. The potential definitely seems to be there for london celtic rugby fans who are starved of Magners league rugby to provide very large crowds comprising of home fans and those attending to see the visiting Irish and welsh teams. I think that the whole proposal could work very well. However, the red tape may be another matter.
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This is a blessing for Scottish rugby for several reasons:
1. It gets our top players out of their comfort zones.
2. The experience gained at clubs with better resources will improve their performance
3. I cuts the wage bill in Scotland
4. It allows Scottish pro sides an opportunity to develop younger players
5. It provides a greater sense of urgency to develop community relations - especially 'feeder' clubs previously alienated by the SRU.
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Most of the Italian players play in the French league. They don't even speak the same language as their host nation. So, why can't the Scots go to a better league to 'hone' their craft? I can think that it is only an advantage to leave.
And so what if they do leave? Why are we dwelling on this question of good players leaving? Footballers have done it all their lives.
Ah yes, the Scottish Football Association is as clueless as the SRU. The Scottish Executive does very little for rugby in Scotland. Teachers opted out of after-hours school activities 20 years ago. And look at the effect! Now we have a decreasing pool of talent.
Unfortunately, that means as soon as good players leave, there's little world class talent to fill the ranks. This is why we are so sensitive to let good players go.
Have you ever met anyone from the SRU or the SFA? Tartan Troos and brandys all round for everyone! East coast to west coast. It's the tightest, neigh......most formly closed, old boys network that exists. They haven't got what it takes to run a modern commercial sporting operation.
Let the SRU go bust. Get rid of the chiefs all the way down to the local selectors whose passion extends to a part-time jaunt down to their old club to prop up the bar.
Once bust, allow shrewd, aggressive experienced captains of business to start a new association. One with passion, creativity, political will (to lobby the Scottish executive) who will build bridges and extend a hand to all the children in the country so that rugby is a everyman's game and we plant the seeds to grow the great players of the future. Instead of this knee jerking at the prosepect of players leaving Scotland.
Increase the demographic (the pool to pick from) - and you increase the chances of better and more talented players coming thru the ranks.
For now, let the players travel wherever they like. Let the SRU go broke and let's sweep out the old guard.
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