大象传媒

At last we are beginning to get a meaningful debate going concerning Cornish Devolution, instead of all this insult throwing and bickering. JL, I think your idea of stickers instead of spray cans is a very good idea. Not only will it prove a point but it will save the council from having to replace the signs when the new designs are confirmed.

Adrian, you have many historical and interesting points, but you will never convince Bob Burns and friends that you are correct, so let鈥檚 just concentrate on how to get a Cornish Assembly. You mention that you will be attending the Cornish Constitutional Convention annual conference on Saturday, but what can the likes of me do?

I work away from home and I suspect Tim, (Caerdydd) is in the same situation. How can we get the large percentage of 鈥渋mmigrant鈥�, and before Steve Garrett bites, I use the word jokingly, population on board the idea of a Senedh Kernow?
Phil T Cornishman in Oman

Adrian Watts starts by agreeing with Phil T that the real case for a Devolved Cornwall is economic (I couldn't agree more), and then promptly goes ranting on again about his own very peculiar theories of ancient history. I am becoming seriously concerned about the ability of Adrian to read and comprehend plain text, written in the English language.

When I make the point that the Tudors were Welsh in origin (not English), Adrian tells me that I am wrong as usual, because the Tudors were well and truly Welsh. Perhaps someone can explain this unfathomable logic, which seems to be a peculiarity of Adrian's, whereby if someone states that A=B, Adrian tells them that they are clearly wrong because A=B.

Even when he is quoted word for word, he claims that he is misquoted. He still hasn't explained why it is that the present day Cornish people are still (reputedly) up in arms about the way their ancestors were treated by the Tudor monarchs during the rebellions, but the Devonians (whose ancestors were also massacred by the Tudors in the same rebellions) aren't.

Incidentally, there were rebellions in Norfolk and Kent at around the same time, which also resulted in the rebels being killed, but their descendents don't still go on about it as if it was a massacre outside the local supermarket last Thursday afternoon. Adrian really is descending to the depths of absurdity when he claims that the Devon longhouses are all Saxon, and that the (Cornish) Celts built round houses.

Just where are all these thousands of Celtic round houses? The only examples he gives are at Chysauster and on Dartmoor (in 'Saxon?' Devon). I refer to an earlier posting by Den an Fro Breidh (I hope I have got that right), when he (I assume it is 'he' from 'den') clearly states that the hut circles (as found at Chysauster and on Dartmoor), were not built by the Iron Age Celts, but by the Bronze Age people. Oh I was forgetting, thatched = Saxon. I must remember that, the next time I am in that excellent 'Saxon' thatched, rectangular pub 'The Blue Anchor' in 'Saxon' Helston, in 'Saxon' Cornwall (it must be, with all those rectangular farmhouses).

What a coincidence Adrian, I also recently stayed in a Devon longhouse, and last year I stayed in an almost identical one (people used to live at one end, with the animalls at the other) in St. Breward, on the western edge of Bodmin Moor.

All this silly nonsense is superfluous of course, as all genetic surveys of the current British population conclusively prove that the inhabitants of the whole of the South and West of England (not just Cornwall) are predominantly Celtic.

Sorry, I was forgetting that Adrian apparently doesn't understand the word 'predominantly'. So Adrian can go on foaming at the mouth about longhouses, round houses, thatched houses and (wicked) Tudor monarchs as long as he likes; it isn't going to change the facts (how ever unpalatable that may be to Adrian or anyone else).

By the way Adrian, I wish you the best of luck in your attempt to get the Government to ask two questions in any forthcoming devolution referendum, as we Devonians want the same thing. Strange that; it was the only sensible thing that Adrian said in the whole of that long post. Hang on in there Adrian, the rubber bus will be along for you soon.
Bob Burns , Barton-upon-Humber

Adrian Watts has me well confused. He begins by agreeing with Phil T (and me - but I'm English, so I don't count) that the case for Cornish devolution is more economic than historical. He then gives us a very interesting but irrelevant essay about Saxon churches.

Sorry Ade, but are you venting your spleen against the English or against Saxons - or both? You may not be aware of this, but since the Saxon invasions England has received populations from Scandanavia, Normandy, Protestant France, Flanders, Ireland, Russia and eastern Europe, the Caribbean, the Asian sub-continent, Africa and many many other places.

So you see, the Anglo-Saxons and the English are not the same thing. It's rather nice actually. I'm proud of the fact that London is the most multicultural city in the world. I haven't the faintest idea whether I'm Anglo-Saxon or a Viking or a Jute or whatever. Couldn't care less.

You, on the other hand, seem to have a huge problem with anybody who is English. That's a bit harsh I think Ade. It wasn't long ago that a spokesperson from Mebyon Kernow came on this board to tell us what an inclusive movement it is. You obviously don't agree.
Pearly King, London

Andrew says some disturbing things about WW2, and perhaps disturbing things need to be said. However the swastika sign (reversed) was originally a sign of peace - which is why it was adopted by the nazis.

If you visit a shinto shrine in Japan you will see it flying to this day. This may sound upsetting, but the truth is that the sign existed long before the Nazi's reversed it and used it for their evil purposes. The evil of the Nazi's was their intentions and unethical policies, not the innocent signs they 'hi-jacked' along the way. The Nazi's had plans to invade Cornwall and Devon, as can be seen on The Devon County Council Website.

However, why does Adrian keep having a go at Devonians?? Why does he try to put up barriers where none should exist. Surely we (Devonians and Cornish) are cousins, different but connected. The Welsh don't spend every moment putting the Scottish people down for being less 'celtic' than them, so why should we with Devon?

Perhaps some people like to pretend that such differences exist so they justify their prejudices. If so, with Adrian's personal Nazi history, he needs to think long and hard about what artificial barriers he may be creating or perpetuating.
Tamsyn, London

What a load of blather we have here. I'm a Cornishman who now lives in London who believes with a passion that more should be done for the Duchy. However, Cornwall is part of the United Kingdom and should fully interact with it and Europe. It's all very well my dear old Mum asking me 'How are things up in England?' when we speak but being a part of the UK does not mean losing one's identity.

Let's go to Europe and get help from them, in the way some of the outer regions of our European partners have done! One and All, but let's make the all our fellow countrymen and women too!
Demelza Trevaskiss, London

Thank you, JL, and I withdraw my aggressive remarks in your direction, with my apologies.

Phil T is right, of course, that the main case for a devolved Senedh Kernow is economic, more than historical.

As for Pearly King, Steve Garrett and dear old Bob Burns (who still doesn't get it) all your postings are doing is proving to people in Cornwall that outsiders from across the Tamar are domineering, intolerant arrogant Englishpersons in a long tradition of cultural and political imperialism in their attitudes to Cornwall and the Cornish!

I can assure you I do not make the parallel with the swastika lightly. My father served in the Royal Navy in WWII, my Anzac grandfather was gassed at Passchendaele, and between them killed their fair share of Germans ... my first wife's father was a German Jew from Berlin, half of whose family were turned into lampshades and bars of soap ... my daughters had one great grandfather in one trench at Third Ypres, and a great grand uncle serving as a major in a regiment of Pomeranian Grenadiers in the opposite trench.

Bob's other points are wrong as usual. Henry Tudor (Henry VII of England) was very Welsh, and saw himself as such. Welsh archers were critical to his armed rebellions against the English Crown and subsequent military progress. And just because lots of Devonians joined in the Prayer Book Rebellion does not alter the way Cornish people today remember how the English Crown, under the Tudor dynasty, treated their ancestors. All Bob or anyone else has to do is look at the granite memorial to the Cornish massacred at Blackheath (along with a few Devonian hangers on, no doubt) along the road from where I live at Penryn, just by the traffic lights on Commercial Road.

The reason why this resonates today is because similar attitudes and policies are still being displayed by upcountry people, whether they be John Prescott and Nick Raysnford in relation to Cornish devolution, or the likes of Bob, Steve and Pearly on this website.

I still stick to my argument with Bob from months ago about the Saxons in Devon and Cornwall (as well as their descendants in England today). I can give you another example, Bob, for you to get your knickers in a twist about. Just look at the agricultural architecture of Devon compared with Cornwall. Try mapping the incidence of Saxon longhouses that still stand as farmhouses in the two counties.

There are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, in Devon ... I was in one last weekend. There are virtually none in Cornwall, except the odd Barton here and there, especially in or near the villages with English placenames between the river Lynher and the Tamar. The Saxons built square, the Celts round, usually (as at Chysauster, or across most of Dartmoor). The Saxon longhouse had the animals at one end, the people at the other. In Devon many are still thatched. Some are converted into pubs these days ... most of the Church House Inns, for example. They are architecturally and culturally (and economically and ethnically) identical to the same structures throughout the rural areas of present day Saxony.

I visited my present wife's mother's farmhouse in what is today the Czech republic, but was in her youth the Sudetenland. It is identical in design, construction and dimensions to Ramscliffe near Beaford, and all those other thousands of other thatched Devon farmhouses. The ethnic Germans who colonised that part of the Slav lands from the early medieval period from Bavaria and Saxony were the same people who did the same from Kent to Devon at the same time ... but the Cornish slowed them down and brought them to a halt, at the battle of Hingston Down in 838 AD. It was only when the Normans arrived that the English fully conquered Cornwall (or thought they did). Past, present, future ... all connected ... and people too, all over Europe and the rest of this big wide world.

Finally, we all need to watch out for the terms of the English Devolution Referenda Bill announced in the Queen's Speech. Will the Bill allow two questions to be asked in the Regional Devolution Referenda, or just one?

I shall be arguing at the Cornish Constitutional Convention annual conference at Bodmin next Saturday that if the Bill doesn't permit two questions (one on the principle of devolution, one on the geography involved - Seven Counties or One) then mass protest in London may need to be organised. No burning down cottages, JL ... but we may need your help in London (and, if need be, blocking the Tamar Bridge) until the Government learns it has no choice but to play fair with Cornwall.
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth

I've nothing to add to the very eloquent arguments already made against the more hysterical elements in this debate. My objection to the vandalism of signs isn't necessarily to the symbolism, but to the aesthetic appearance. Why not get some St.Piran's flags printed up and stick them to the signs in a manner that does not cause damage? This will have several advantages:
a. You will have made your point.
b. The symbol will be more recognisable than the current spray can 'art'.
c. If caught, you will have a better defence to a charge of criminal damage.
JL, North Cornwall

I agree with the of the Pearly King, and a few others, that we should be fighting our case for devolution on economic grounds and not on historical grounds because I think that would prove to be a stronger case. We all know that the Cornish have a history related to the Celts, but present day Cornwall contains a population consisting of, maybe, more than 40% of people who were not born here but have moved here from other parts of the UK. These people will have to be got onboard if Cornwall is ever to have an assembly. Claiming that an historical reason is why we should have our own Assembly could alienate these people. It would make more sense if we argued the case economically, then after we achieve our goal (Devolution), we can introduce more Cornish aspects of our culture.
Phil T, Cornishman in Oman

Steve Garrett is 100 per cent right about Adrian Watts's nauseating post. The Swastika is symbolic of pure, unadulterated evil and it is still used by weirdos and psychopaths who are proud of their sick racist ideology. We have had Andrew Rowe describing himself as a 'civil rights activist'. Yeah right - just like Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Steve Biko and Nelson Mandela eh? No doubt we will be hearing about Cornish political prisoners next.

There is a perfectly good case to be made for devolution for Cornwall and other regions on the basis of local identity and economic development, but attempting to hitch the campaign for Cornish devolution on to some of the great struggles of the last century is insulting to people's intelligence.
Pearly King, London

A couple of responses to recent emails:

1 Phil T suggests that surely you can find competent politicians amongst a population of 500,000. Possibly so, but we have trouble findng the same from a population of 60,000,000.

2 I don't condone vandalism, including that of ETB signs, but its hardly terrorism or murder is it? At least a point is made.

3 Andrew keeps referring backto the Tamar as a 'national boundary' with 'England' just on the other side. Boundary yes - with England no. Its a boundary with Devon. Devon is no more english than Cornwall. Here is a web-site that might provide further evidence http://www.users.senet.com.au/~dewnans

Mur ras Name - Paul T Where you live - Adelaide
Paul T, Adelaide

Cornwall should not be seperated from the rest of England.
Joe Blow, Lewisham

To the question, "should Cornwall become independent", I say "yes" and the same to any region of the British Isles that wants the same. The more devolution the better as far as I'm concerned. The UK is far too centralised as it is.
Sean, Bristol